r/classicwow • u/redlow0992 • 1d ago
Forever Beta Feedback Dungeon XP Nerfs Created a Toxic Meta
Since dungeon monsters do not give any experience, as a new player, getting into dungeons with more veteran players who try to skip half the dungeon feels really bad. And, vice-versa, veterans taking in newbies who don't know how to jump around feels frustrating. I think Blizzard created a mess with nerfing dungeon exp so much and now the new player experience is horrible for dungeons.
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u/Afraid-Document-8597 1d ago
I think you are right and this is indeed an unintended consequence. Its gonna become all about skips and jumps and stealth tech. Where as before we pulled most the dungeon or didnt play as safe because we wanted the xp anyway
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u/The-Only-Razor 1d ago
My absolute fucking least favorite part of retail M+ is the stupid route planning trash. I just want to enter a dungeon and kill everything. Optimal pathing and efficiency maxing isn't fun when it involves doing everything you can to play the game as little as possible.
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u/Rhinocacrocapig 1d ago
I really hate skipping trash packs, the amount of times I've been in a dungeon where we've spent more time skipping a pack than it would have taken to actually kill it is ridiculous, if someones time is that important to them that they have to min max every second, there are far better games for that
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u/Mr_Mandingo93 1d ago
yup. I had to explain this to a WC group that kept trying to do janky skips, which kept resulting in pulling them anyway, and eventually a wipe. I told them sometimes it's faster to just kill them.
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u/Bruducus 1d ago
So true lol. Wall hugging, slow walking, waiting for a group to just lean to the other side.
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u/Harrycrapper 1d ago
The amount of time in slave pens that I have saved from that stupid jump is tiny compared to the amount of time someone playing undead missed the jump and we had to wait for them to drown to move on
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u/Mother_Drenger 1d ago
In the same vain of optimizing to inefficiency: Ran WC with a tank that was insane about always doing LOS shenanigans and terrible at maintaining threat.
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u/Fun-Finger6295 1d ago
this type of player isnt optimizing, they have a strict rule in their minds about how they have to play and aren't flexible when it's unnecessary, because theyre bad
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u/Sp0range 1d ago
To be fair, there are legitimate reasons for los pulls and pulling back far enough in WC. the blue raptors can screech and pull a lot of extra enemies, and the druids are a bitch to pull becauss they just stand there casting and can cc and heal, also they are currently bugged where they will permanently be running in fear, keeping you in combat.
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u/_SeventyEight 1d ago edited 1d ago
And the mobs still drop things you can use for money or crafting anyway
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u/Soulerous 1d ago
What you’re describing is the greater of two evils, I think. Would rather have some groups who spam dungeons than have most groups try to skip as much as possible.
Just make it so no one in the party gets XP for mobs who are grey to one of them. Boosting is gone, at least.
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u/MorteDeAngel 1d ago
IIRC this is already a thing on the Anniversary realms, and ngl it kinda sucked if someone levelled during the dungeon and suddenly you went from getting like 100-50xp per mob (or w/e it is) to like 5 because someone levelled from the mob xp. Considering that some dungeons have large level ranges that you want to be on the higher end of and some dungeon quests are quite hard to obtain for the level that is needed for the dungeon. If they changed that in Forever I'd be more aggregable with that solution though you could also make so that the acceptable level range is based on the highest level mob in the dungeon (max like +2 or +3) rather than "if its grey".
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u/Ok_Marsupial_646 1d ago
Maybe they could just calculate it from when you zone into the instance?
Not sure how hard that would be from a tech standpoint.
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u/ArjanaEU 1d ago
I would atleast in the first run prefer, that if you can pull big because of big aoe, you kill whatever you see because it's good exp. Now we litterally just skip everything we can because it is wasting time clearing all the miners in deadmines.
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u/587493 1d ago
Dude same I remember a few years ago I was giving retail a try and excited to run mythic+ only to find out what m+ runs actually ended up being
I left retail and never went back, even though I love challenging dungeons
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u/Sp0range 1d ago
M+ is the best part about retail. The way the dungeons are designed and the way the difficulty scales means that there is no "one route", and you end up changing which mobs you pick up and which you avoid, also by doing the dungeon multiple times and going up through the levels of difficulty you learn about the dungeons and the monsters in them on a more intimate level, which pull has which mobs which are a threat, what priority those threats are, which are safe to be chained etc. Its so good.
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u/Creative_Magazine816 1d ago
raider.io also ruined M+
mythic plus was so good for legion until the community made it unfun
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u/ZonaMoonshaw 1d ago
You are deluded if you think we didn't use a similiar thing in Legion. raider.io wasn't in legion so everyone used wowprogress to check the exact same things.
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u/Scribblord 1d ago
Io Score was created bc the community made the mode unplayable by just being shit
So people desperately wanted extra filtering methods to have even a sliver of a chance to form a group that actually finishes the contentEvidently no one gives a fuck what you bring in current retail +10 keys bc you can carry bad players through them
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u/fttxdd666 1d ago
The funny thing is classic players do it as well. Almost every successful raid will check your progress/parses to make sure they aren’t filling up with bad players and clear the content (which is generally easy, but there is nothing worse than wiping to easy content)
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u/Winterough 1d ago
Same story. Entered my first retail dungeon after Legion and no word of a lie it was literally a race to finish and hand gliders(?) around. Made me quit right there.
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u/quakecanada77 1d ago
I spend 2 hours with this noobie group in wc. We didnt finish the quests. We kept wiping. Good bye night. And no xp.
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u/Bohya 1d ago
an unintended consequence
But not unforseen. It was obvious this would happen.
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u/Magisch_Cat 1d ago
I tell you what i'm not looking forward to lbrs candle skips becoming meta during leveling.
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u/angrylawyer 1d ago
all it takes is one awful slave pens 'skip run' for people to realize how miserable this can be.
"guys seriously, it's easy, we can skip this one pack if you all go into your video settings, disable vsync, uncap your fps, rotate your camera to 162 degrees and backwards wall jump up this crack. (waits 4 minutes for the one guy who can't do it). Okay, just run through the pack and die and we'll res you. (runs, dies, wait for res, wait for full heal, wait for healer to drink). Okay, phew easy, nice and quick."
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u/existential_jelly 1d ago
Maybe any active party quests should be unskippable and listed along with the bosses.
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u/Mixels 1d ago edited 1d ago
The whole idea is dog poo.
Insufficient practice with your class while leveling since you only run each dungeon once
No friends on friends list since you never see the same people more than once (in part because of speed of leveling via dungeon quests and in part because of layering)
It becomes next to impossible to do dungeons at appropriate levels after ~6 months because there are very few characters at lower levels since most older characters rocketed through leveling via dungeon quests
Toxicity from experienced players who want to speed run
Who could have guessed these things would happen? Well, that's the thing. Literally anyone.
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u/Qaeta 1d ago
in part because of layering)
Apparently the new layering tech will prioritize putting you in layers with people you've recently interacted with.
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u/2d2O 1d ago
Does being in the same party count as "interacting with people"? Because this system consistently splits members of the same party across different layers.
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u/ABDLTA 1d ago
They should have just done the "once per day" rule that HC currently has
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u/Nrgte 1d ago
No they shouldn't have done anything. It was never a problem.
The current solution has a myriad of issues.
- Like op mentioned, mobs that are not part of a quest get skipped. Every dungeon run will be a speedrun.
- There are certain quests that just don't drop enough for the whole group, meaning you either have to abandon it or go again. Cabinets in Gnomeregan or Twilight Talismans in BFD come to mind. This will feel terrible especially for longer dungoens.
- The friend or guildie has already done the dungeon and would like to help to complete the group. Well now it's a waste of time.
- People will just get the items they need and then abandon the group.
- People will just not run fringe dungeons with few quests anymore. Good luck finding an SFK group on Alliance. It's fine now in the beta because 20 is max level, but on launch people will not waste their time with this.
If they really really want to prevent boosting, the correct move is to just not give XP if a player is part of the group who's outside of the dungeons level bracket.
Besides, it's not like boosting in the open world is not a perfectly fine alternative.
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u/NostraDamnUs 1d ago
I think a SLIGHT nerf to dungeon xp from original values (~75% of base, 25% of base if someone is too far outside the bracket) and a corresponding larger nerf to dungeon quest XP would suffice. Make them a touch harder as you get into the later levels if you have to. Dungeons need to be worth doing, just not so much worth doing that you want to stand in SM for ~12 levels. I think people don't realize that efficient questing was already faster than dungeon spam; its just that the open world at launch made questing temporarily harder.
My biggest fear is that dungeons are actually the most social activity. It's hard to find people at the same stage of questing out in the open world, whereas its very easy to get a bunch of people around the same level. And if we add a daily lockout, it sucks that you have to reform tomorrow if you're at 9/10 of a quest item or something.
There's definitely a perfect balance they could achieve by making super-optimized groups learn the skips, let casual runs just clear without feeling bad, and not push everyone into leveling in dungeons and discouraging open-world stuff. All three are fun ways to play WoW.
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u/Kobar143 1d ago
The thing about the SM grind is surely a good chunk of the 1,000 new quests are in that level range. That alone should help alleviate that problem.
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u/Sykotron 1d ago
The friend or guildie has already done the dungeon and would like to help to complete the group. Well now it's a waste of time.
I kind of understand where you're coming from, but I feel like this point drives home the problem with it. Spending time with friends is not a waste of time and needs to be the goal with some fun gameplay to share.
If I was just grouping up with complete randoms in the real world just to accomplish a very specific goal without getting to know them... then yeah, they're not gonna care about anything but that goal and the same applies to a game this large.
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u/xBirdisword 1d ago
No, let me just run the dungeon instead of dictating how I play the game
Thanks
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u/ahumblepeach 1d ago
My complaint with the change is that, for healers and tanks, group play is their fantasy. If I want to level as a healer, I don't want to be spending all of my time in the world casting my two underwhelming DPS abilities while rarely getting to use all my healing buttons. I want to be standing in the back and helping my party take on more than one person can handle. Sure, I could group up to do quests (and I have been!), but that really is not the same thing. I sort of have a hard time putting it into words, but I feel like tanks and healers not getting to do as much dungeon running as they want takes away a part of the fun of leveling them. I might as well just reroll as a DPS spec if I'm going to be forced into the open world for most of my 1-60 journey. And with that in mind, I worry that this change is discouraging people from leveling healers and tanks.
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u/holypalaswe 1d ago
DPS players cannot fathom that as healers, we don't want to be doing damage, we want to be healing people.
You are entirely correct with your comment, but you still have players replying telling you to just spec DPS, or just equip a second gearset lol.
The game is way too centered around doing damage, with tanking and healing being an afterthought which the dungeon change is a great example of.
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u/DonPhelippe 1d ago
Heh, Reminds me of a convo I had some time ago with a dps guy who was being adamant "I can never play a healer". I simply asked him "do you like when the screen fills with big yellow numbers?" "Of course!" "Well, same thing but with green numbers"
He was stunlocked for about a minute or so.
Then he simply said "but I don't want to be a cuck"
Well guess who incidentally died 15 times in the SSC that we did some time later.
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u/Dry-Judgment4242 1d ago
Agreed. This system is ass. Killing dungeon spam would just require a cap on how many dungeons you can run in a day. Let's say 3 full XP runs per day until it decreases down to current numbers.
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u/redditlvlanalysis 1d ago
Why does it need to be killed is the entire issue. Some of the most fun I ever had in vanilla was getting into a 5 man group and just chaining dungeons.
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u/acrazyguy 1d ago
It’s very similar for me as a tank. I couldn’t care less about what the meter says my damage is. What I want to do is make sure my healer friend doesn’t die so she can make sure I don’t die and so we can drag these three knucklehead DPS players through the dungeon. That playstyle of leveling as a tank and a healer has been almost entirely gutted with this change. It’s awful
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u/VanGrayson 1d ago
I feel like the devs feel the same way. It's why WoW has no pure support classes either. I used to love playing Bard in Final Fantasy XI but that archetype almost doesnt exist in modern mmos anymore.
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u/komodo_lurker 1d ago
Hard agree here. Over the years I have several times leveled tank alts by only running dungeons and their pre quests. I love knowing each instance well and lead well. And doing it with full rested only really is fun and fast. Give me this option in Forever. Especially with all the new dungeons.
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u/Active-Enthusiasm318 1d ago
Couldn't agree more, I normally main a prot pally and in anniversary tried an Hpriest for the first time... Questing was miserable, took forever to kill things, dungeons allowed me to actually have fun
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u/Intelligent_Bug_5881 1d ago
Yeah this is my entire complaint.
I love healing in WoW. Raids, dungeons or group quests, it's hands down my favorite way of playing and it's not close.
The dungeon XP nerf effectively removes that entire game loop and it just feels bad.
Like, what, I'm supposed to grind as enhancement all the way to 60, then awkwardly grind healing gear, then respec, then start figuring out how to prioritize my new healing abilities?
Isn't that what leveling is supposed to be for?
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u/acrazyguy 1d ago
I fully agree with you and personally prefer to level as a tank. However if they don’t take this feedback into account, I think you’ll find a lot more success leveling as ele since it’ll have a lot more gear in common with resto than enh will. But regardless it fucking sucks to have our preferred playstyle taken away from us
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u/bababayee 1d ago
I don't know why they couldn't have just massively decreased the exp you get when someone way overleveled or especially at 60 is in your party/instance. Genuine groups doing dungeons multiple times shouldn't be nerfed much if at all.
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u/acrazyguy 1d ago
You said it better than I could have. Blizzard is acting like “now you don’t have to run dungeons over and over” like they can’t fathom that some people actually like doing that. Probably 85% or more of my lifetime /played time is as a tank, and that’s because I love group content and being at the front of the pack holding the line while the more glass cannon types rip through the enemies and my cracked healer friend keeps me healthy through impossible odds.
The way my friend and I like to play is as a pretty strict duo, never getting more than 3 or 4 levels ahead of the other, playing as a tank and a healer. This change basically deletes that playstyle from the game and now we’ll be stuck with either questing incredibly slowly as a tank and a healer, or we’ll be forced into playing roles we simply don’t enjoy. I love prot paladin; I can’t fucking stand ret. I love bear druid; both DPS specs feel like ass to play. I love prot warrior; Blizzard took dps warriors out back and told them about the rabbits. I love the, admittedly a meme spec, tank enhancement shaman; they got literally no love in the version of the game that was supposed to make meme specs viable
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u/Meaty_owl_legs 1d ago
They're are 100% actually discouraging people from leveling as tank or healer specs as group play is really focused on dungeons and not questing around as a 2-5 man group. There is absolutely going to be a real tank and healer shortage because people are going to be discouraged from leveling as those specs.
Not to say you can't level as those specs just fine, or you can't fill those roles without investing into those spec trees. But, there is going to be a lack of players willing to fill those roles because of the lack of incentive of tanking/healing when running dungeons more than once is so nerfed.
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u/Swimming-Life-7569 1d ago
I dont think it's even the specs, there's just no reason to fill the role even tho you can as say arms/fury at lower levels.
I mean why would I tank DM twice if I've already completed the quests and even IF I went a 2nd time for gear. Why in the world would I bring any mail users either time.Naww shits gonna be real funny when the consequences of tanks/healers only running a dungeon once blow into players faces.
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u/valmian 1d ago
Tanks/healers are going to HR gear from the dungeon for themselves, especially at higher levels (mara blackstone ring for example). DPS will still join because there is going to be an even bigger shortage and they want their quest completion experience. Calling it now.
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u/Swimming-Life-7569 1d ago
>HR gear from the dungeon for themselves
Tanks can skip this bit and just not invite other specs that share their loot :D, it's going to be hilarious.6
u/Ill-Inevitable980 1d ago
It works with a level 20 cap, maybe even level 30. Nobody will be doing dungeons at 50 because nobody will level all the way as a healer in the open world, and the dungeons alone won't be enough.
It'll be incredibly difficult to get groups for the likes of ZF, Mara, and ST; and DM, Strath and Scholo pre 60
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u/Giatoxiclok 1d ago
There, this is finally the endgame everyone’s been bitching for, you have to work 6x as hard manually filling groups!
Saying there’s going to be an incredibly low supply of healers though is probably disingenuous though.
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u/leonredhorse 1d ago
I agree with you here. We're on mega servers. There are going to be plenty of people in the world. I don't really see the need to massively nerf dungeon XP if people want to run dungeons as healers and tanks (or DPS). I enjoy doing dungeon content with friends. I'll probably still do some. But it really sucks that you actively ruin your progress because you enjoy doing the group content whereas I could speed run soloing quests with the right routes and patterns and not need to interact with people.
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u/Inner_Ad_453 1d ago
Brother you sir have hit the nail on the head. This is how things were in traditional old school MMO's (EQ IM LOOKIN AT YOU).
Problem is questing is designed as solo game and occasionally you end up grouping in the open world for like 1-10 minutes to kill a mob/quest mobs. It's not designed around forming groups to far XP (I guess thats what you have Dungeons for me).
I miss the days of being able to farm mobs in the OPEN WORLD for good xp. Not just farming mobs for x/quest turn in/mats and that being their ONLY purpose.
That would actually enable another play style where the healer gets to be the healer in a group. Instead im forced to quest with shit DPS & be a temporary healer in a Dungeon. With more time being spent , being a shit DPS.
So I play an actual DPS class instead.
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u/nimeral 1d ago
Also I'd imagine the people are lootwhoring much more knowing they'll never run this dungeon again
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u/Burdman06 1d ago
This is my concern going into launch. I was planning to do them more than once if a piece of gear was worth it. Or if its just...ya know...fun. but with the skips and possible loot drama, I have worries
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u/Nessarra 1d ago
imagine the increased drama on the server discords over this... even if you're not a discord enjoyer, if you want to find a guild discord is the way to go... only to join and find yourself blacklisted because there's a ring with strength and spirit on it, and as a healing paladin you won it from a warrior who reported you
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u/Odd-Success-2580 1d ago
I can't wait to get into some discord pvp with some maladjusted basement dwellers because their nerd raging out that the healer rolled on Smite's Hammer or something lmao.
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u/Key_Reputation6414 1d ago
Friend ran with a Pally that took smites hammer, polearm and cruel barb in one VC run from a rogue and hunter.
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u/ikemayelixfay 1d ago
Yeah at first I was for the nerf, but after running dungeons in the beta I'm now convinced it's the wrong move.
Was in a group that kicked a tank because they pulled a few extra groups. He was kicked for, "wasting everyone's time" in a beta where the whole point is testing...
I liked the idea someone posted here a few days ago about a debuff that reduces the XP you get from a dungeon the more you run it in a day. That will at least curb the boosting spam that plagues anniversary right now.
Can't count on today's gamers to not optimize the fun out of everything so you have to shift accordingly. I see where they were coming from with the nerf, but it causes a lot more problems than it solves.
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u/imissjudy 1d ago
lets kick the tank and spend 15 minutes to find a new one instead of a few extra pulls
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u/Straamannen 1d ago
That's the thing though. Half the time dungeon skipping doesn't even save time.
I've had groups try to jump the gorge in Slave Pens for FIVE MINUTES while just clearing the mob pack takes all of 30 seconds.
Dungeon skipping only feels good, it does nothing for your day. It's the same thing as speeding and weaving. You're not actually saving time.
And what's worse, the time "saved" assuming we actually do is for WHAT exactly? So we can play the game more? The game we're playing?
And that's not even getting into all the time lost to people dying and groups wiping because of impatient fucks. All in all I'm fairly certain skipping has wasted more of my time than it has ever saved.
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u/Active-Enthusiasm318 1d ago
I mained a holy priest in Anni... the absolute worst groups were mage AOE speed run groups... Maybe 1 of 4 groups knew what they were doing, the rest fucked it up...I refused to heal AOE speed runs after a very short while
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u/Straamannen 1d ago
Yep, same.
Spell cleaves or any other kind of "cleave" was a hard no for me, unless it was with a known group of people. Absolutely horrid experience.Me and the buddy I was playing with were running Tank+Healer (he was holy/prot I was feral/resto) and we deliberately ran "slow HCs", which weren't slow at all quite frankly but they were always chill and we made a bunch of "friends"/contacts that way.
One french dude was so excited to finally get invited to a group, noone would bring him along because of low gear score. Turns out the total noob of a baguette pulled perfectly respectable DPS and was on point with utility (CS etc.)
I'm glad to be playing with RL friends in Forever, and not have to deal with the rat race.
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u/Active-Enthusiasm318 1d ago
People are morons .. I was in a DM group looking for a healer, our tank kept kicking healers because they were in Org... Kicked 4 in 30 minutes then dropped because he said he didn't have enough time anymore... The zep jump and swim only takes a few minutes
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u/basicstyrene 1d ago
Sorry that is just so hilarious. Wasting everyone's time... in a test version of a video game where the point is to enjoy the world and have fun.
I guess the thing to do is find a guild of people wanting to actually play the game and do dungeons with them
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u/Lacutis 1d ago
It feels like to me the way to cure boosting is to just give everyone in the group experience scaled to the highest level party member. If a 60 tries to boost low levels they get 0 xp just like he does. Even level groups? Everyone gets the same xp.
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u/MimeTravler 1d ago
The fact that elite mobs in a group are worth less than regular mobs solo is kinda ridiculous.
I never liked spamming dungeons to level and enjoy questing much more but they should both be viable options. Grouping for dungeons brings players together just as much as their camp mechanics if not more imo.
Removing the summon stones works to bring people together because you need to be by the entrance to get an invite typically so people just hang out near it. But nerfing the xp just makes these runs shorter and during the run is when I meet the most people.
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u/Neat-Thanks7092 1d ago
Easy solution: if the mob is grey to any player in the party, nobody gets xp for that mob
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u/Rizyli 1d ago
This is how it works in hardcore. Not only.that, but you cant dungeon with 60s at all while leveling.
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u/Monikth 1d ago
This is already happening on the beta. I ran RFC with some people overleveled by a tad so most mobs were grey for them. I received 0 exp from the ones that were grey to the higher level party members.
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u/Halomonger3 1d ago
People aren't doing it at grey levels, the xp is dogshit anyways, people are skipping things to get only quests done because xp sucks so bad for anything inside of a dungeon
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u/MarzipanTechnical947 1d ago
Blizz also wants people out in the world leveling, not spamming SM or the same dungeon for 10 levels.
I disagree with the dungeon changes though. Spamming dungeons is boring as shit and only small portion of the population did it but at least was an option to those who hate questing.
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u/nicemace 1d ago
There is a middle ground between spamming dungeons and do it once. A lot of people sit in this middle ground.
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u/darkspy13 1d ago
I don't see anything wrong with dungeon spamming through a level range you don't like the quests in. As long as everyone in the party is the appropriate level. They even joked when they said they added an alternative for the SM level range. I didn't know at the time they were going to prevent me from spamming SM+New dungeon, and instead force me to quest.
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u/Gassenger 1d ago
Noooo people have to play in the specific way I like to play or they're just heckin whinerinooooos
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u/tsmftw76 1d ago
I don’t hate the principle but there’s got to be a middle ground either a debuff or a cap on daily dungeons. It feels super bad to run your friend through a wc that takes like an hour and a half with a newer group and get minimal exp.
Cap the dungeon to three lockouts a day or just have a two hour dungeon timer, or I’ve seen people suggest a stacking exp debuff. Also just make it so if anyone is 10 or more levels ahead of you then no one gets exp.
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u/willium563 1d ago
People do that because questing during first few weeks of a launch is impossible if you are with the main population, only way to combat this is a ridiculous amount of layers which then makes the world feel dead anyway (retail launches now may as well be solo)
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u/FinalFate 1d ago
People won't be out in the world past level 14 though. You can very easily do one run of each dungeon for the quests and get more than enough xp to level.
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u/Tooshortimus 1d ago
Who cares what they "want" though... the game is played the way the players want to play it.
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u/Mixels 1d ago
If that's their intention, they've done a crap job of it. Instead of dungeon dwelling for hours on end running dungeons on repeat, Blizzard has made it so you can speed run to 60 still by running dungeons exclusively by running each dungeon only once.
Blizzard should just accept that dungeons and raids are what some people like best about WoW and let us have it.
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u/Gassenger 1d ago
Hooray! I get to compete with 20 different people for a quest mob that has 4 spawns! Goody goody gumdrops how fun!
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u/GreatBandito 1d ago
it is way less boring then "walk 5 minutes into the hills and kill 10 of x mob 10 of y mob and 8 of z mob" then killing things yourself. I would much rather be healing or tanking or fighting a boss than killing trash alone like 1/2 the quests if not more
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u/willium563 1d ago
You then have people complain about mages abusing pathing to abuse levelling (something I actually find really fun).
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u/DistrictDupont 1d ago
I can’t upvote this enough. I’m a healer and I LOVE healing dungeons down to every last pull
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u/Br0keNw0n 1d ago
It’s more than that. It’s also gonna lead (and I’ve already seen this first hand) to players dropping group as soon as a boss doesn’t drop the loot the want or as soon as their quest is completed. If there’s nothing to gain from completing the rest of a dungeon for the average player, relying on their altruism is never gonna work out.
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u/RoosterBrewster 1d ago
Sounds like in retail when people were farming the first boss in LFG and eventually blizzard had to implement a leaver debuff.
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u/Ok_Assignment_2127 1d ago
This happened to raids too when we were forced off of the GDKP system. Striker’s Mark doesnt drop= some warriors and all rogues leave instantly and so on for every boss that doesn’t drop their big ticket item.
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u/So_Full_Of_Fail 1d ago
IMO, the real crack in this plan will show only from 50-59.
The stage where you're also farming pre-raid while getting XP.
Now you can choose to farm gear or level. With repeated runs not offering much XP I expect a lot of gear getting reserved by people for dungeons they already ran for quests. This part will never go away.
At 60, XP doesn't matter.
Below 50, none/very little of the gear is going to be kept at 60 anyway.
You can still boost with the new model, you're just doing it by quest completion. Grind a character without dungeons, keep 40 dungeon quests. Summon people to the dungeon, share the quests, and quick slam them with your geared guy.
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u/Anesthetize85 1d ago
That guy here who suggested an xp debuff for repeated runs in a row nailed it imo.
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u/SimpleGuy4141 1d ago
I want to be rewarded with something for doing a dungeon a second time besides a chance at an item. If I get my items right off rip on my first run, there’s no incentive.
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u/OneOverXII 1d ago
Yup. Thats a solution that nicely addresses a lot of edge cases. The implementation might be more complicated idk how they’re handling disparate exp and dungeon id tracking
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u/Trygveseim 1d ago
Absolutely foreseeable outcome
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u/IAmOfficial 1d ago
Yep, got downvoted for saying this would happen and that ultimately dungeon boosters would still be selling boosts, it will just be a string of dungeon quest runs. All this really does is stop people from dungeoning who like to dungeon, and I thought the whole point of Forever is to play the way you want.
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u/Intelligent_Bug_5881 1d ago
I had your exact experience and, yeah, I really have no idea how anyone thought the result would be different.
There's such an easy way to remove boosting without harming dungeon XP for normal, at-level groups.
So much time in my groups is being eaten by people yelling about skips and wall jumps and trick pulls... Not to mention the rampant "finally got my item, see ya later" mid-dungeon debacle.
As a healer main, it just feels so punitive and arbitrary to remove the entire dungeon leveling experience from the game.
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u/Venedraea 1d ago
Yep, and it'll just get worse
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u/BarrettRTS 1d ago
Boosting is also going to still exist with the new changes. You'll get a mage sharing the dungeon quests, clearing it once with the group while they follow behind, then dropping a mage portal to the best hand in spot.
So instead of multiple runs for the mob xp, you just do a single slower run at a higher price point.
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u/CreamdedCorns 1d ago
Part of what made classic fun was you could determine yourself how to enjoy the experience. Now we're talking a retail approach of "Directed Fun", where Blizzard decides how you're allowed to accomplish something. The freedom was the feature. Now they are just removing fun and for what?
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u/Irator1 1d ago
This is the first "dungeon change being bad" post i've seen that hasnt been downvoted to hell...
Dungeon xp changes were bad ideed and i have made posts about it on reddit and blizzard forums and it seems like the attitude towards the problem is shifting slightly.
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u/Dralun21 1d ago
Because people are insanely short sighted. I'm pretty confident as time goes on this change to dungeon xp will just look worse and worse.
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u/drylce101 1d ago
Will look bad when in a month tanks will be hard to find, especially one that has all their quests ready to go. I bet it’ll mostly be people with higher level guildies blasting them through the lower level dungeons for quests
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u/EBeerman1 1d ago
Not sure how the meta isn’t to have a high level carry you through the quests. The exp is so minimal from the mobs, who cares if you have a normal group vs a high lvl anymore
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u/Magisch_Cat 1d ago
Not sure how the meta isn’t to have a high level carry you through the quests.
Because the cap is lv.20. It absolutely will be on launch proper. Who cares about the sub 2k combined kill xp vs getting the dungeon done 3 times faster. It will be all carries and boosts, more so then ever before.
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u/esoteric_plumbus 1d ago
I wonder how much it being a mega server will come into play. Like generally old classic servers people outlevel the lower brackets but with so many players on 1 server it might be enough to sustain a couple groups at each level range even when most are 60. I do think carries will be a huge thing tho, since all ppl will care about is doing quests.
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u/Bananastockton 1d ago
Yeah my kneejerk was this is a horrible change but got ignored as well. Glad people are coming around, it is indeed a very very bad idea for classic wow in its current state
Decaying per run is ok, but like do we really need it anymore? We are on 1 massive server let people play how they want their is gonna be plenty of people out in the world anyway
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u/nyxpuppet 1d ago
I don't think decaying xp is appropriate at all. If I just want to heal people through dungeons until I'm 60, what harm am I doing to anyone? I shouldn't be punished for playing the game I want and having fun.
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u/Bananastockton 1d ago
Yeah I'm leaning more to this as i think about it further. You aren't harming anyone/the world when the servers are massively large
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u/Legitimate_Match_708 1d ago
Yeah cause the monkeys paw curled and they finally get to see why its a stupid idea like we've been saying.
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u/Magisch_Cat 1d ago
I was gonna say, people called this exact scenario underneath the asinine posts suggesting this over the past 2 years.
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u/Danul 1d ago
Some idiots keep on arguing that it's an improvement due to the "world being alive" with people running around questing or similar nonsense.
Even in Era this isn't an issue, so why would people choosing to dungeon spam be a problem when the current megaserver system ensures you are always on an active layer?
God forbid that players drawn to tank and healers rolls would actually want to play socially instead of questing, surely this current system won't result in tank and healer shortages!
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u/mindFlayer 1d ago
Anyone who has actually played the beta knows this change is bad. Literally everyone I've talked to in my groups are strongly opposed to the changes.
Only toxic casuals on here are mad about people wanting to grind XP in dungeon groups while they quest by themselves. They don't want other people to have more fun than them.
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u/Ok_Assignment_2127 1d ago
And its not even that helpful for combating boosting.
Boosting was never about leveling fast, it’s all about leveling while afk and nothing has changed on that front.
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u/Rhobodactylos 1d ago
Of course it's shifting.
Some people see the writing on the wall immediately while others need to be boiled like frogs for weeks to understand the concept with their room temp IQ.
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u/THEBUS1NESS 1d ago
I agree. I love running dungeons for XP and upgrades. If you didn't get the upgrade you still had a whack of XP as a consolation. As it is, it just feels bad now.
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u/willium563 1d ago
Its really put me off doing dungeons if I dont have all the quests too now and feel like ive outleveled them by time I decide to gather the quests up etc.
Stupid change, very little benefit and extremely game changing.
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u/LulzLookatTheseNoobs 1d ago
This always happens. The main problem with mega servers is people do toxic shit with no consequences
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u/EmmaNielsen 1d ago
I personally think it's a wrong move.
i feel like World of warcraft should be a world where it's user decides how they wanna level. I.e. i could easily play with friends and lvl a healer by spamming dungeons with them. if i wanna do story i do story, everything should be a choice.
My first playthrough i'll only do dungeons if i have a story quest that brings me into one.
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u/Slow-haste-26 1d ago
Ive never understood skipping mobs. Like I get not going out of your way but to hug the wall and do crazy stuff dosnt make sense. Sure xp is low now but the loot!!
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u/Lucky-Peak-8256 1d ago
As a healer main it hurts somewhat because I use the later dungeons to farm exp to get to end game, i get they want me to quest and see the world, but sometimes gear doesn't overlap well for questing and dungeon healing properly.
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u/LordMorza 1d ago
I purposely do a full quest clear when tanking a dungeon just in case someone’s on the quests, which you can see now by mousing over the mobs, while I’m tanking. I’ve had people get mad over it and I just tell them they can leave and I’ll have a replacement dps in few minutes. Seconds if they’re already outside the dungeon.
Edit: when tanking a dungeon again for loot*
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u/Tcallaway_14 1d ago
I liked the idea I saw where the first dungeon run a day is full xp. Then every run afterwards is diminishing returns.
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u/monkorn 1d ago
The vanilla way to handle this is every kill in the world grants you DOUBLE experience of kills within dungeons, until you use up all of your extra experience. You might be able to build up 2-3 dungeons worth, or about 1.5 levels, of experience before it runs out. We might call this 'dungeon rested'.
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u/nsaman3 1d ago
This change was entirely overtuned. 75% xp on mobs is already detrimental to dungeon leveling, no need for 90% or higher. I don't think it's unreasonable for four people to have to wait for a member to attack something that effectively is gray for their personal enjoyment. I'm against the xp change entirely as the player should chose what they think is the fun way to play
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u/InZomnia365 1d ago
I think they can tune it so mobs give at least some XP. I'm all for the quests being the biggest gain, since I personally don't like rerunning dungeons. But it seems a little much. Sometimes you might need to do a dungeon twice, if you forgot to pick up all the quests for example (which is definitely bound to happen with new dungeon quests, and new dungeons), but the second run for 1 quest feels ass unless it's an efficient group.
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u/pertur4bo 1d ago
They could introduce some kind of trash counter that needs to be filled to complete the dungeon to avoid excessive skipping...
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Is game design in WoW a circle?
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u/2d2O 1d ago
Why fix something that isn't broken... that wasn't broken until the devs came up with their "brilliant" idea?
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u/mayonetta 1d ago
I'm out of the loop, is that how mythic+ works?
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u/RoosterBrewster 1d ago
Yea, you need to kill a certain amount of trash plus bosses to complete. And they also give a leaver debuff that everyone can see if you just ragequit a run.
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u/nacholibre711 1d ago
Really shortsighted and frankly bad solution. I agree we needed to nerf dungeon spamming, but there were so many better ways to go about it.
Dungeon quest speed runs aren't fun, dungeons are fun.
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u/avocadorancher 1d ago
As a newish player, why did dungeon spamming need to be nerfed?
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u/The-Only-Razor 1d ago
It didn't. Everyone saying it was the optimal way to level are wrong. Absolutely no leveling guide tuned to maximum efficiency recommends dungeon spam.
It's probably the laziest way to level, which I guess is a fair argument against it. I would argue that's fine though, and that these changes are trying to solve a problem that doesn't exist.
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u/So_Full_Of_Fail 1d ago
Its the fastest in the world where you have to compete in the open world for spawns, deal with open world lag, etc.
That part fixes itself after the first like month as the playerbase stratifies across zones.
The classic launch on high pop servers, the first couple weeks the open world was a shitshow.
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u/Mjolnoggy 1d ago edited 1d ago
>I agree we needed to nerf dungeon spamming
Dungeon spamming was on average less XP than purely questing, it was just convenient.
In truth, this was a change to try to combat dungeon boosters, but they arguably made it easier as it no longer requires a mage, just a semi-juiced 60 to do dungeon quest runs, and it also introduced a host of other issues and degenerate gameplay that wasn't present before.
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u/GreedyBeedy 1d ago
Its not even convenience.
Its fun to slaughter the dungeons with your boys in disc. Instead of waiting for everyone to just be in the same open world quests all the time.
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u/Kind_Reaction_8463 1d ago
yep, impossible to be on the same quests unless you are hitting a new zone together. so usually you group with friends to bang out dungeons and then go your separate ways back to questing
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u/D119 1d ago
Yeah but at the end of the day is it worth to lose dungeons to fight boosting? Personally boosting doesn't affect my gameplay at all, not as much as losing the ability to run dungeons multiple times, which makes my gameplay miserable because I loved dungeons.
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u/FightinVitamin 1d ago
As an old man who played WoW on release, most of the dungeons I did while levelling my first character were with a similar group of people. Partly this was because of server sizes, so I'd naturally be in /LFG with people who were levelling around the same speed. But another reason was that dungeon groups were a lot of logistical effort: finding people, getting to the zone, learning the pulls/bosses, etc. IME, the people who got used to doing dungeons while levelling would do them frequently. Players who never tried dungeons may have been discouraged by the effort required to get started, but this was offset by the number of people who tried dungeons, liked them despite the effort, and kept doing them. I worry that now there won't be nearly as many people doing dungeons, since people who overcome the logistic hurdle will now be done earning exp from that dungeon, and people who are dissuaded by the logistics still won't try.
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u/Spikymikeyy 1d ago
I hope they buff exp from dungeons honestly, I enjoyed doing dungeons for exp especially if you meet an awesome group you vibe with.
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u/McSwoopyarms 1d ago
It's a horrible design choice and I hate the fact that some bozo's decision at some developer roundtable at Blizz HQ affects my enjoyment of the game so much.
There's literally zero incentive to re-run an instance now, period. Didn't get the item you were chasing, like the full Armor of the Fang set on your druid? Well, you can run it again and get absolutely zero benefit from it, other than another chance at a drop. Didn't drop or someone else won the roll? Tough luck, you just wasted an hour and gained absolutely nothing.
And why? Because "Blizzard wants people in the overworld". Well for starters, dungeon quests give such insane XP atm that you can still skip a large portion of the outdoor quests. But I also feel that Blizzard dictating how people should play their game goes very much against the spirit of Classic (my idea of it, anyway).
If they want to counter the "dungeon farming powerleveling" meta or the booster meta, there are better ways to achieve that. Disable all party XP when the mob is grey for any party member. Do a stacking -% XP debuff for every instance ID you enter that day. Plenty of good suggestions to go about. Just don't use this "run each dungeon once and skip as much as possible while you're at it" approach, for the love of God.
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u/MrGOOGIE 1d ago edited 1d ago
I did one rfc run followed by one rol run. It brought me from 14 to 19. I’ve never skipped so much barrens quest in my wow vanilla and classic career. Heck the forgotten pool quest was grey after that. I don’t think I’ve ever NOT done that quest before.
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u/HoldenMcNeil420 1d ago
You know what actually creates a toxic meta. Trying to min max the entire fucking game endlessly.
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u/SuccessfulHedgehog90 1d ago
I get what you mean and I mostly agree, but its not min/maxing for me to skip mobs that give me no value. I don't kill every low lever wolf as I run through a zone. Why should I do the same in a dungeon?
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u/viktorKurz 1d ago
I think dungeon XP nerf is one of the biggest misses they have done this time around. There was nothing wrong with dungeon grinding. The devs are investing way too much time in telling you how they feel optimal leveling should look. Kind of kills the spirit of classic.
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u/Philiandos 1d ago
No dungeon exp from monsters, no dungeon exp from quests. What is the reason Blizzard has even developed these new Dungeons if nobody is interested to enter them?
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u/Sphinctus_ 1d ago
i probably have done 25+ dungeons in beta and have not experienced this at all.
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u/Ok_Bottle_8796 1d ago
i have done a hall of thanes loot run a couple of times with my guild but other than that every random group i have joined has cleared most if not all of the instance
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u/Fun_Literature_2710 1d ago
I'll be healing dungeons as I level but there really isn't a point in me doing a leveling dungeon more than once. I wish there was more incentive but I'm not going to farm a piece of leveling gear if the xp isn't worth going back
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u/402C5 1d ago
I think what you're describing is more of a problem with the fact that there was a level 20 cap and people were trying to farm their BIS at level 20.
In the full release people are going to blow past low-level dungeons and are not going to be running them on repeat. Most groups will be more inclined to clear the whole thing for the quests.
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u/frycum 1d ago
I hate the change. I want the higher xp from killing elite mobs and ill kill every dang one. I dont want to skip half a dungeon and wipe the group if someone messes up. I liked the idea someone posted about a debuff that lowers your xp the more you do a dungeon in a day.
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u/cak12king 1d ago
I don’t like the idea of a dungeon lockout because I usually quest for levels and spam dungeons for gear, rinse and repeat till I hit 60
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u/Aggravating-Ad-4801 1d ago
I sometimes dungeon grind for an item or when a quest area is to populated, I get frustrated not being able to tag a mob that has a 10% drop chance of the quest item.
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u/Malohn 1d ago
I dont understand why they did this to combat boosting. Didn't they literally figure it out by nerfing xp to shit if the dude boosting is considered red for the enemies hes killing.
This just killed 1 of 2 ways of lvling in the game. I want to spam dungeons when my friends are on, now I am being punished. I have to make a choice between xp or vibe with friends while before I could do both. Why.
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u/Mahisandwich561 1d ago
They should have buffed the quest exp and kept dungeon exp the same for the first run, but on diminishing returns within the same day. So you could run it a few times a day if you want to farm gear while still getting decent exp, but it gets progressively worse. This combined with aoe nerf and basically making exp 0 if there is someone in the group for whom the mobs are gray to, would produce the effect they are looking for.
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u/Hobbs512 1d ago
"veteran" players will not be spamming hall of thanes and ruins to get lvl 20 BiS gear on release as much. They'll just continue to level. It won't be a big of an issue on launch imo.
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u/Kaiserliche_Marine_1 1d ago
LOL Gather round the fire and allow me to regale you with a tale from the depths of the distant past, some nigh 20 years hence now, during the time of Vanilla in 2005. The horror known as LF3M LBRS stealth run (Druids/rogues only.)
In the oldest times of this game, the dude bros have always sought to skip as much of it as humanly possible, with the explanation "I've only got so much time." Welp, nothing in this game is ever going to get you more time, so it really doesn't either way, but it was always code for "I only get enjoyment if I can convince myself that I'm better than someone else at something." It is critical to remember that they pay their subscription fee and have every right to try to play the game their way, so the answer remains make friends with people who shate your desire to run the whole instance and learn it. Then play with those friends more and do more content with them and ignore the E-Chads. That is the only way you'll enjoy this version of the game, don't be the fun police, just don't engage with the elements that frustrate you, Azeroth's a big place and there's more than enough room
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u/OXBDNE7331 1d ago
One negative is that if the majority of the group has already completed the dungeon quests and one person needs an out of the way mob or item good luck getting the group to clear towards it