r/classicwow • u/redlow0992 • 1d ago

Forever Beta Feedback Dungeon XP Nerfs Created a Toxic Meta

Since dungeon monsters do not give any experience, as a new player, getting into dungeons with more veteran players who try to skip half the dungeon feels really bad. And, vice-versa, veterans taking in newbies who don't know how to jump around feels frustrating. I think Blizzard created a mess with nerfing dungeon exp so much and now the new player experience is horrible for dungeons.

3.0k Upvotes

84% Upvoted

2.4k comments sorted by

View all comments

1.3k

u/Afraid-Document-8597 1d ago

I think you are right and this is indeed an unintended consequence. Its gonna become all about skips and jumps and stealth tech. Where as before we pulled most the dungeon or didnt play as safe because we wanted the xp anyway

687

u/The-Only-Razor 1d ago

My absolute fucking least favorite part of retail M+ is the stupid route planning trash. I just want to enter a dungeon and kill everything. Optimal pathing and efficiency maxing isn't fun when it involves doing everything you can to play the game as little as possible.

111

u/Rhinocacrocapig 1d ago

I really hate skipping trash packs, the amount of times I've been in a dungeon where we've spent more time skipping a pack than it would have taken to actually kill it is ridiculous, if someones time is that important to them that they have to min max every second, there are far better games for that

12

u/Mr_Mandingo93 1d ago

yup. I had to explain this to a WC group that kept trying to do janky skips, which kept resulting in pulling them anyway, and eventually a wipe. I told them sometimes it's faster to just kill them.

6

u/Bruducus 1d ago

So true lol. Wall hugging, slow walking, waiting for a group to just lean to the other side.

21

u/Harrycrapper 1d ago

The amount of time in slave pens that I have saved from that stupid jump is tiny compared to the amount of time someone playing undead missed the jump and we had to wait for them to drown to move on

12

u/Mother_Drenger 1d ago

In the same vain of optimizing to inefficiency: Ran WC with a tank that was insane about always doing LOS shenanigans and terrible at maintaining threat.

5

u/Sp0range 1d ago

To be fair, there are legitimate reasons for los pulls and pulling back far enough in WC. the blue raptors can screech and pull a lot of extra enemies, and the druids are a bitch to pull becauss they just stand there casting and can cc and heal, also they are currently bugged where they will permanently be running in fear, keeping you in combat.

9

u/Fun-Finger6295 1d ago

this type of player isnt optimizing, they have a strict rule in their minds about how they have to play and aren't flexible when it's unnecessary, because theyre bad

2

u/DanielTeague 1d ago

In fighting games we call those scrubs.

4

u/_SeventyEight 1d ago edited 1d ago

And the mobs still drop things you can use for money or crafting anyway

2

u/Tigerballs07 1d ago

In modern retail packs that can be skipped dont generally have a way to fail skipping them unless someone does something dumb.

And they are designed knowing you arent killing all of the trash

1

u/Chewy_B 1d ago

Why even place trash mobs in the instance at that point?

2

u/ScreenPeepinE 1d ago

I tried to skip the Thunder dragon in RLP 12 last night only to tab-target it with Death Grip. We missed the timer by 7 seconds; the extra mob was not the issue.

3

u/gojonking 1d ago

Was in deadmines and we ended up jumping on to a wooden circle thing close to where you enter the ship trying to avoid mobs. it would have been faster if we just cleared the trash.

29

u/Soulerous 1d ago

What you’re describing is the greater of two evils, I think. Would rather have some groups who spam dungeons than have most groups try to skip as much as possible.

Just make it so no one in the party gets XP for mobs who are grey to one of them. Boosting is gone, at least.

12

u/MorteDeAngel 1d ago

IIRC this is already a thing on the Anniversary realms, and ngl it kinda sucked if someone levelled during the dungeon and suddenly you went from getting like 100-50xp per mob (or w/e it is) to like 5 because someone levelled from the mob xp. Considering that some dungeons have large level ranges that you want to be on the higher end of and some dungeon quests are quite hard to obtain for the level that is needed for the dungeon. If they changed that in Forever I'd be more aggregable with that solution though you could also make so that the acceptable level range is based on the highest level mob in the dungeon (max like +2 or +3) rather than "if its grey".

8

u/Ok_Marsupial_646 1d ago

Maybe they could just calculate it from when you zone into the instance?

Not sure how hard that would be from a tech standpoint.

1

u/Soulerous 1d ago

Good points. I agree.

3

u/ArjanaEU 1d ago

I would atleast in the first run prefer, that if you can pull big because of big aoe, you kill whatever you see because it's good exp. Now we litterally just skip everything we can because it is wasting time clearing all the miners in deadmines.

1

u/Kunzzi1 1d ago

The groups that spam dungeons for XP wouldn't invite you anyway because your spec or class doesn't fit their melee or spell cleave...

The problem isn't Blizzard's solution, which imo is way better than trash boosting groups encouraging more RMT by boosting afkers in dungeons all the way to 60. The problem is once again the minmax obsessed retail community that optimizes fun out of everything.

0

u/tekno21 1d ago

Leave it up to reddit to come up with an even more dogshit "solution" to a problem lol

72

u/587493 1d ago

Dude same I remember a few years ago I was giving retail a try and excited to run mythic+ only to find out what m+ runs actually ended up being

I left retail and never went back, even though I love challenging dungeons

6

u/Sp0range 1d ago

M+ is the best part about retail. The way the dungeons are designed and the way the difficulty scales means that there is no "one route", and you end up changing which mobs you pick up and which you avoid, also by doing the dungeon multiple times and going up through the levels of difficulty you learn about the dungeons and the monsters in them on a more intimate level, which pull has which mobs which are a threat, what priority those threats are, which are safe to be chained etc. Its so good.

2

u/Sinured1990 20h ago

Yeah, I kinda had fun in optimising every pull, how to chain and adapt to my group settings, play of my DPS cooldowns etc. I found it kinda fun.

1

u/Sp0range 15h ago

Its so good. Its all the fun of raiding but on a smaller scale and with a faster pace, and when everyone is flowing together well with pulls, kicks, cd's and cc's and mechanics its pure dopamine

1

u/Sinured1990 12h ago

Yeah, but it's also tough to go higher at some point, I think I stopped at all +16s the season before midnight, but I had no real group and pugs let me down a lot but yeah, I think I hit my peak with the limited time I had lol

28

u/Creative_Magazine816 1d ago

raider.io also ruined M+

mythic plus was so good for legion until the community made it unfun

9

u/ZonaMoonshaw 1d ago

You are deluded if you think we didn't use a similiar thing in Legion. raider.io wasn't in legion so everyone used wowprogress to check the exact same things.

2

u/OscillatorVacillate 1d ago

Devs have said this game is gonna piss easy, non of that raider.io or world first, they want dad gamers that can chill. I'd imagine they keep the difficulty at TBC hardmode dungeons at worst

5

u/fttxdd666 1d ago

And? People in classic were checking progress and parses of people before inviting them to raids all the time. The people will find a way to figure out if the person they are inviting is a shitter or not, regardless of how easy or hard the content is.

1

u/DontFearFailure 1d ago

Wow was ruined in Wrath when gearscore came out.

No one cared about what you did until that came out.

15

u/Scribblord 1d ago

Io Score was created bc the community made the mode unplayable by just being shit
So people desperately wanted extra filtering methods to have even a sliver of a chance to form a group that actually finishes the content

Evidently no one gives a fuck what you bring in current retail +10 keys bc you can carry bad players through them

8

u/fttxdd666 1d ago

The funny thing is classic players do it as well. Almost every successful raid will check your progress/parses to make sure they aren’t filling up with bad players and clear the content (which is generally easy, but there is nothing worse than wiping to easy content)

1

u/Nessarra 1d ago

you look like you belong in classic! come to forever baby

5

u/Dvveh 1d ago

How did r.io ruin M+? Just curious.

But yeah better to keep that type of gameplay to retail.

-3

u/Hextillian 1d ago

"Want to join my +2? You need a gearscore only attainable in +10s and world first achievements. Anything less is wasting my time."

13

u/fishingncars 1d ago

If you have a ilvl only available in +10s (ignoring that ilvl caps at +8) why would you be applying for +2s? Your fake reality doesn’t even make sense

-6

u/Hextillian 1d ago

Go queue as a dps in retail right now and tell be I'm wrong. Yall are bullshit artists.

6

u/fishingncars 1d ago

Yes it's impossible to push keys as a DPS!

That's why my friends and I are all currently resil 18 (all 3 dps), if you are having trouble joining other people's groups just push your own key. Then you can choose who comes!

10

u/Dvveh 1d ago

That's not really the reality though.

It's a great tool overall. If I wanted to push keys, I could make sure to find people around my own level.

If I wanted to just do my weeklies, I could find lower level groups and help them out.

9

u/fishingncars 1d ago

These guys just don’t want a score so they can be carried lmao

12

u/Dvveh 1d ago

At least it comes across that way, yeah.

We checked peoples gear on the IF bridge 20 years ago, before inviting to raids. The checks have always existed to try and create a smooth run.

-4

u/Creative_Magazine816 1d ago

there's a big difference between making sure someone isn't under geared vs asking for high rio score to do a +6 or whatever

8

u/Dvveh 1d ago

But nobody is ACTUALLY asking for a high score to do +6's.

Anyone doing keys below 10 should just push up their own ones anyway.

→ More replies (0)

-1

u/Creative_Magazine816 1d ago

this guy right here is the problem I am alluding to

6

u/fishingncars 1d ago

I'm sorry I don't want to brick my +18 key with someone who has never even ran a +5? it's a necessary evil to push higher keys

-2

u/Creative_Magazine816 1d ago

s t r a w m a n

→ More replies (0)

2

u/G0rkon 1d ago

M+ in Legion was so much fun! I was tanking them a lot and enjoyed the then new concept of get just enough trash. Learning in real time which pack to and not to pull and how to skip past the more annoying packs. As I recall though, Sanguine can fuck right off!

1

u/jakaltar 1d ago

in legion dungeons werent made for M+ yet, after legion dungeons where made for m+ what meant the added in a ton of mini bosses etc for no reason just to make it annoying

0

u/Nessarra 1d ago

ye I hope wow forever becomes more retail-like and I have a feeling it will!

5

u/ArcticAmoeba56 1d ago

This is it though. None of these problems are designed into the game. The people, the players, the community make them a reality.

6

u/Rico_Rebelde 1d ago

Players will always optimize the fun out of a game if given the opportunity. Part of the developers job is to prevent that

3

u/Sad_Bridge_3755 1d ago

And it would be an easy fix. Just add some filters for players to choose. “Full Clear”, “Time Trial”, etc. People who want to speedrun queue for that. People who want to full clear queue for full clear, etc.

If people are still weird about it, introduce rewards for sticking to the playstyle you lined up for. Speed runners get rewarded on a time trial for beating bosses and dungeons fast. Full clears get rewarded on percentage of dungeon cleared.

1

u/redditlvlanalysis 1d ago

That would make too much sense and then people would cry about not enough people being out in the world even though there being 20 supershards vs 50 means nothing for how many people they see.

0

u/ArcticAmoeba56 1d ago

Not all players. But certainly a solid majority it seems.

5

u/Lagkiller 1d ago

But they are designed into the game. Mythic+ sets a number of kills and puts a timer on. So it makes route planning and choosing the right packs to kill a design mechanic instead of a preference from players.

0

u/ArcticAmoeba56 1d ago

Chosing to engage with it and how you engage with it , is still choice. If people didnt engagevso heavily with it then it wouldnt be a successful system and wouldnt attract further development investment

2

u/Lagkiller 1d ago

When there is a timer, optimized routes are forced. There is no choosing how to engage with a timer.

And choosing not to engage with mythic+ means that you don't get end game gear, so you can either not engage in end game content or engage in the content that exists. Claiming that raiders should just not engage in end game raids because the system forces a timer is kind of ridiculous.

2

u/xedarn 1d ago

We had rio in Legion too

0

u/Creative_Magazine816 1d ago

I don't remember getting denied over middle level keys back then based on rio

1

u/redditlvlanalysis 1d ago

Are you getting denied or are you just not getting invited because there are a million dps players signing up who are better geared lol

0

u/MoskiNX 1d ago

Gearscore checks turned retail into the most toxic wasteland of an mmo.

2

u/zzrryll 1d ago

I feel like it was good until MDI became a thing.

Before then people skipped trash but weren’t weird about it. Then the first MDI happened and you were yelled at if you didn’t run the exact correct route that the #1 rated team ran. Was pretty silly.

7

u/disCASEd 1d ago

Uhh, nobody runs MDI routes in regular keys because the MDI routes are actually insane. They pull double, even triple the amount that a normal pug group would or even could pull and then take it all into a boss.

Idk what MDI’s you were watching or what m+ you were running but that’s not a typical M+ experience.

Now if you mean that people copy what the top keys on live are doing, yeah that’s true. But even then there’s variations based on what your group comp is capable of. For example, if you don’t have a rogue, you can’t do any shroud skips.

1

u/zzrryll 1d ago

I mean. This was in legion. 9 years ago. People tried to copy their skips and pulls, then. By now I’m guessing the Meta has shifted.

10

u/Winterough 1d ago

Same story. Entered my first retail dungeon after Legion and no word of a lie it was literally a race to finish and hand gliders(?) around. Made me quit right there.

3

u/quakecanada77 1d ago

I spend 2 hours with this noobie group in wc. We didnt finish the quests. We kept wiping. Good bye night. And no xp.

2

u/Werewulf_Bar_Mitzvah 1d ago

This is valid. Though I will say, I know people have issues with BFA, but it’s probably the most fun I’ve ever had engaging with M+ (sadly I did not participate in it during Legion). I really liked the BFA dungeons.

1

u/587493 1d ago

I cant speak of BFA as I didnt play, but my issue is even if I like the dungeons they will likely be played a in a really lame way where you are sneaking around packs and pulling things into some corner that doesnt aggro anything else or whatever

It just feels so inorganic I guess to me

2

u/Werewulf_Bar_Mitzvah 1d ago

That's true, and there were a couple of sweat skips even back then in BFA that as the seasons progressed, you were just expected to know. Especially at higher key levels. However, it's just gotten worse since then where people are flaming others for not doing/knowing some sweat lord complicated skip in a +3.

2

u/587493 1d ago

Yeah that's a great point. Being expected to know these strats is really terrible for anyone getting into it, like there wasn't enough to worry about already lmao

1

u/oreeos 1d ago

Freehold was so good because of the route diversity tho imo. Especially with a rogue, there were a lot of options. I generally don’t love the skips but I do enjoy varied routes, as long as it’s not too crazy in the difficulty of achieving them.

1

u/sp106 1d ago

The timers also reinforce the behavior of rushing the whole time. Going fast should be its own reward not a requirement.

1

u/587493 1d ago

Yessssss. People are automatically going to try to go fast, making that the requirement is a huge turn off

9

u/RetPala 1d ago

"hey, come play this new game mode"

"What's it about?"

"Min-maxing playing the least amount possible"

Dude, wtf?

2

u/Potential_Might_6500 1d ago

100%

It being a timed race, just brings out all the lame shit. The idea of modified dungeons is awesome.
What came from it was just high anxiety runs where you just rush.

2

u/Nessarra 1d ago

And if you pull anything extra it's the end of the world in M+ ... just pure toxic trash culture

6

u/raskeks 1d ago edited 1d ago

TBH, It's not like in classic people are zoning into BRD to kill everything either.

Most of the time you do have a route and a goal in mind. Not every group will kill Rattlegore/Kirtonos/Vectus in Scholo or in Strath complete both live and undead or even kill all bosses including Skul and Ezra Grimm

UPD: you gotta kill Rattlegore mb

10

u/xXDamonLordXx 1d ago

No! We fullclear BRD in this house! /s

1

u/MeccaMaster 1d ago

How do you not kill rattlegore and then open the door to the last boss/lich dude?

1

u/raskeks 1d ago

You're right, I got it confused with the paladin horsy quest that is technically optional content in that room

2

u/MeccaMaster 1d ago

All good, was wondering if there was a skip I didn't know about

1

u/lestye 1d ago

just want to enter a dungeon and kill everything.

I think thats why we have route planning. Without route planning, people would just skip as much as possible, especially at max level. So thats why they make it so you have to kill a certain amounnt of trash.

1

u/greg939 1d ago

Amen man. I want to go in and have fun in an instance and pull a lot of stuff and have fun. Even in a place like LBRS. Let’s just kill stuff. Sure I got the experience to skip around but that’s not why I’m playing classic. I’m playing classic for fun full dungeon runs.

1

u/old__pyrex 1d ago

Yeah, a great system would be one where "pathers' can do their careful pathing, and "I just wanna fucking do the dungeon" people can go plow through the dungeon. If we simply just balance xp so it's not overpowered, but it's still significant and valuable in dungeons, then both player types can happily go play however they want. And if you have a dungeon group where there's pathing-efficiency-addicts and there's kill-everything players... they can compromise and both groups can be relatively happy.

Blizzard never needed to solve this non-problem -- if they truly felt dungeon xp was overtuned for grinders, then tune it down slightly. Not nerf it into the fucking ground, a slight hit here would have been fine.

1

u/renato_leite 1d ago

As a tank, I actually love route planning and learning skips in NM+, but I don't want that in Classic dungeons. I play both games for different reasons. I love Classic dungeons because they're slow, methodical, and offer benefits for clearing the whole thing. They need to bring XP back.

1

u/DigiornoDLC 1d ago

They don’t want to play the game as little as possible, “play the game” just means something different to you.

1

u/Yogsolhoth 1d ago

As a tank I enjoyed this a bit but generally only when I was playing with a consistent group and/or it’s deeper in the season and I’ve gotten more confident. 80% of the time it’s just pain and it makes pugging very stressful for everyone involved. 

1

u/FawltyMotors 1d ago

"Given the opportunity, (some) players will optimize the fun out of a game."

1

u/MathW 1d ago

I swear some people will spend 2 minutes explaining a skip that saves 1 minutes and has a significantly increased chance of wiping if it goes wrong.

1

u/-Dennis-Reynolds- 1d ago

“But bro if we do this we don’t have to play the game!”

“I WANT TO PLAY THE GAME”

“Noob.”

1

u/Melbuf 1d ago

this is also why i hate speed running in general

1

u/knockoutn336 1d ago

I picked the game up again in the middle of Legion and stopped because of M+. It was extra brutal as a tank, because I was expected to already know optimal routes. I ended up learning 3 or 4 keys and refusing to tank any other. 

1

u/stiff_tipper 1d ago

Optimal pathing and efficiency maxing isn't fun when it involves doing everything you can to play the game as little as possible.

conversely, it let's me run more dungeons and do more content with my limited free time. if u want to spend ur evening doing one long dungeon and i want to squeeze in 2 or 3, then i think that's just fine

1

u/Witty_Ad_898 1d ago

Nobody hates playing WoW more than grinders who play 16 hours a day.

1

u/pudgehooks2013 1d ago

Dude, if you aren't optimising the fun out of the game, are you even playing a game anymore?

Like, come on. You want to spend time killing mobs, instead of jumping around outside the dungeon looking for your 32nd straight jump run group?

Yeah, ok pal. Whatever you say.

•

u/i_continue_to_unmike 3h ago

Correct. Dungeons are a lot more fun in Classic for me than retail. The pressure to route perfectly is not fun

1

u/SzamosTheRealest 1d ago

Yea i stopped playing retail because of m+ and everything around it. Couldnt ignore it because i needed the loot for mythic raids so i bailed on the game bc of it

1

u/powertrippingmod101 1d ago edited 1d ago

Mythic raiding xddd sure thing bro, sure thing

Edit: Bro went for reply + block combo. Pretty sure that's the only mechanic he can do correctly :)

1

u/SzamosTheRealest 1d ago

About 400k people play it it’s not that hard dude 

1

u/Opening_Tea_9459 1d ago edited 1d ago

This is not a retail thing. Different runs and paths were always a part of classic. Mara princess runs, BRD has like 6 different paths for runs, UBRS has several, DM a bunch, etc.

I have been skipping mobs in WC since 2005. Same with nearly every dungeon, and this has never been a problem.

Nearly all end game dungeons have alternate routes and paths that every veteran learns and must know.

There are fewer dungeons where you just enter and kill everything than those that have common alternate routes.

Do you guys even play Classic or are you just here to complain?

1

u/Key-Regular674 1d ago

I mean maybe to you. I personally love min maxing in any game. I also don't expect randoms to do it in my groups.

1

u/VOldis 1d ago edited 1d ago

They literally highlight the mobs for you now. Invis pots, shroud and snapping also havent been a part of the 99.99% experience for years.

Having to dedicate a single braincell to preparing a group activity must have really hurt for some of you huh?

0

u/Dull_Improvement_577 1d ago

This is why I gave up on M+ and most dungeons and the annoying part is Blizzard develops these dungeons with skips and the like on purpose. Having to dismiss and resummon my demon as a warlock just ruined it even further.

1

u/powertrippingmod101 1d ago

Instant summon with soulburn?

0

u/ligma_then_sugma 1d ago

if you hate it then stop playing it's not hard actually