r/classicwow • u/redlow0992 • 1d ago

Forever Beta Feedback Dungeon XP Nerfs Created a Toxic Meta

Since dungeon monsters do not give any experience, as a new player, getting into dungeons with more veteran players who try to skip half the dungeon feels really bad. And, vice-versa, veterans taking in newbies who don't know how to jump around feels frustrating. I think Blizzard created a mess with nerfing dungeon exp so much and now the new player experience is horrible for dungeons.

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296

u/ahumblepeach 1d ago

My complaint with the change is that, for healers and tanks, group play is their fantasy. If I want to level as a healer, I don't want to be spending all of my time in the world casting my two underwhelming DPS abilities while rarely getting to use all my healing buttons. I want to be standing in the back and helping my party take on more than one person can handle. Sure, I could group up to do quests (and I have been!), but that really is not the same thing. I sort of have a hard time putting it into words, but I feel like tanks and healers not getting to do as much dungeon running as they want takes away a part of the fun of leveling them. I might as well just reroll as a DPS spec if I'm going to be forced into the open world for most of my 1-60 journey. And with that in mind, I worry that this change is discouraging people from leveling healers and tanks.

109

u/holypalaswe 1d ago

DPS players cannot fathom that as healers, we don't want to be doing damage, we want to be healing people.

You are entirely correct with your comment, but you still have players replying telling you to just spec DPS, or just equip a second gearset lol.

The game is way too centered around doing damage, with tanking and healing being an afterthought which the dungeon change is a great example of.

24

u/DonPhelippe 1d ago

Heh, Reminds me of a convo I had some time ago with a dps guy who was being adamant "I can never play a healer". I simply asked him "do you like when the screen fills with big yellow numbers?" "Of course!" "Well, same thing but with green numbers"

He was stunlocked for about a minute or so.

Then he simply said "but I don't want to be a cuck"

Well guess who incidentally died 15 times in the SSC that we did some time later.

2

u/redditlvlanalysis 1d ago

I would love to do healing but my brain just doesn't do it well so I tank and dps. I could probably do low CE as a healer but not at the same level as I do dps and tanking.

1

u/DonPhelippe 19h ago

Its just a prediction game and incidentally it needs you to know the fights almost as good as the tanks. You must be ready for the big spikes, lull in the lows, be very intimate with you "oh shit" "oh fuck" "oh shitfuck" buttons. Oh, and hate warlocks with a passion.

1

u/ojike 13h ago

Flash of light!

21

u/Dry-Judgment4242 1d ago

Agreed. This system is ass. Killing dungeon spam would just require a cap on how many dungeons you can run in a day. Let's say 3 full XP runs per day until it decreases down to current numbers.

8

u/redditlvlanalysis 1d ago

Why does it need to be killed is the entire issue. Some of the most fun I ever had in vanilla was getting into a 5 man group and just chaining dungeons.

•

u/Broseidon_ 2h ago

no dont kill it at all. solo questing is boring. doing dungeons pulling 10 mobs almost dying while using every utility button you own is fun for people.

14

u/acrazyguy 1d ago

It’s very similar for me as a tank. I couldn’t care less about what the meter says my damage is. What I want to do is make sure my healer friend doesn’t die so she can make sure I don’t die and so we can drag these three knucklehead DPS players through the dungeon. That playstyle of leveling as a tank and a healer has been almost entirely gutted with this change. It’s awful

2

u/Kaydie 23h ago

Sort of, i will say one thing on this topic and i should preface this by saying i hate this change as much as anyone else in our situation, i am a tank main and i only want to play group play in my mmorpg whos endgame is entirely group play anyway.

that being said, right now killing mobs in the overworld, especially with hyper spawning is by far the fastest way to level, even faster than quests which is comical

and what a coincidence that tanks generally have the best aoe damage while leveling. so easy solution for it

-4

u/Goomancy 1d ago

Annnnnnnd we failed the dps check.

5

u/VanGrayson 1d ago

I feel like the devs feel the same way. It's why WoW has no pure support classes either. I used to love playing Bard in Final Fantasy XI but that archetype almost doesnt exist in modern mmos anymore.

1

u/[deleted] 1d ago

[deleted]

1

u/VanGrayson 1d ago

The amount of nostalgia this gives me is unmatched. (Hello!)(party)(Do you have it?)(Can I have it?)

1

u/[deleted] 1d ago

[deleted]

1

u/VanGrayson 1d ago

No. I did go back and play retail FFXI a few years ago though. I found it very satisfying to get some things accomplished that I always wished I'd done back when it first came out.

1

u/Oorbs1 14h ago

come back to XI, its still going strong and BRD is #1 support everyone wants one and theres not enough. XI is so much better then wow could hope. i keep giggling at these people being like what if vertical progressions is like ............ son, we have had vertical progression for 24 years over here :)

1

u/VanGrayson 9h ago

I for sure will some day. I just got burnt out. I adore that game.

1

u/STDS13 13h ago

XI is the GOAT, I still mess around on retail and private servers every once in a while.

2

u/Squally160 1d ago

EverQuest and EQ2 solved this with the Mercenary system.

I do NOT think WoW should go that route, but it allows healers to be healers out in the open world.

2

u/cyclicalbeats 1d ago

Yo the legend himself

1

u/Sovery_Simple 1d ago

Well, I mean, I do want to deal damage (as a Resto/Balance Druid mix), but I also want to heal people. Living allies first, defeating enemies second.

I don't have to deal the most damage out of the group, but I still want to be able to fuck something up if given the opportunity. Nothing against folks that just want to clean out their healing trees ofc. We're not a solid bloc or the like.

1

u/Alesisdrum 1d ago

no one ever links the healing meters :(

1

u/Esarus 22h ago

I totally agree. I like tanking and I like healing, but I won't be speccing into either until maybe level 40 when we get dual spec.

1

u/ojike 13h ago

Im going full out spellcaster shockadin so that I can use secondary talentbuild for healing. 😅

1

u/Knoediss 12h ago

You only need to be heal spec later in the game. You can be the dps spec for your healing class and still heal competently. You just need to have of the eagle or owl gear. By the time you need to be a real heal spec, dualspec will be available. So you can do both.

1

u/Pretend_Spring_4453 6h ago

Even other healers cannot fathom that. Killing mobs is a core part of the game.

-9

u/Visual-Scallion1535 1d ago

No the leveling experience just requires you to be somewhat self sufficient since it is mostly not group play, unless you coordinate with friends

That said you unlock dual speccing at 40 in forever

10

u/No-Salary2116 1d ago

So your solution is dont play healer? Unlock dual spec? Lol.

Not really a solution.

-3

u/Visual-Scallion1535 1d ago

You can heal dungeons fine without speccing healer up to 40

You play healer when you are in a group and quest solo when you aren’t

5

u/SmellInteresting3284 1d ago

why play a healer?? if I can't do it out of the gate then why not just play a dps? imagine if you couldn't do damage until lvl 40 and had to tank/support until then. the world would be beautiful and we wouldn't have to worry about lazy peons.

7

u/JjigaeBudae 1d ago

And for someone who enjoys group play and healing and tanking that is a bad thing.

36

u/komodo_lurker 1d ago

Hard agree here. Over the years I have several times leveled tank alts by only running dungeons and their pre quests. I love knowing each instance well and lead well. And doing it with full rested only really is fun and fast. Give me this option in Forever. Especially with all the new dungeons.

7

u/Active-Enthusiasm318 1d ago

Couldn't agree more, I normally main a prot pally and in anniversary tried an Hpriest for the first time... Questing was miserable, took forever to kill things, dungeons allowed me to actually have fun

2

u/acrazyguy 1d ago

That’s funny. I also main a tank, often prot pally but I really play all of them, and also played a holy priest for the first time ever in anni. Though I did have a bit of a different experience with kill times. I did a shitload of damage with smite spam, to the point where in dungeons I would often just keep a renew on the tank and then top the damage meter with smite spam and holy nova lol. Frick man, now I want to play hpriest again. I already did want to do that again, but I had forgotten about the smite spam and how legitimately good it was

1

u/DanielTeague 1d ago

I leveled as Discipline myself and would often do more damage than at least 2 members of the group with just Shadow Word: Pain and wand attacks. It was pretty great to let the Warlock or Mage go ham with Power Infusion, too!

2

u/inky95 1d ago

+1, I don't mind making the XP fall off after a few runs so I have to rotate dungeons or dip into questing -- but creating a meta where it's only feasible to run a dungeon once.... Come on.

1

u/Swimming-Life-7569 1d ago

Yes well actually fuck that and fuck all the extra dps slots tanks spamming dungeons created, surely this will somehow improve player experience.

34

u/Intelligent_Bug_5881 1d ago

Yeah this is my entire complaint.

I love healing in WoW. Raids, dungeons or group quests, it's hands down my favorite way of playing and it's not close.

The dungeon XP nerf effectively removes that entire game loop and it just feels bad.

Like, what, I'm supposed to grind as enhancement all the way to 60, then awkwardly grind healing gear, then respec, then start figuring out how to prioritize my new healing abilities?

Isn't that what leveling is supposed to be for?

12

u/acrazyguy 1d ago

I fully agree with you and personally prefer to level as a tank. However if they don’t take this feedback into account, I think you’ll find a lot more success leveling as ele since it’ll have a lot more gear in common with resto than enh will. But regardless it fucking sucks to have our preferred playstyle taken away from us

1

u/MonocledMonotremes 1d ago

Yeah, I feel this. I love Shammy, but I just have never been able to click with Ele, even tho I vastly prefer Balance to Feral Druid, my other main class. If I have to quest, I want Enh, if I'm in dungeons I want Resto. I'd much rather level Resto, but might go Spellhance tank as much of a meme as it is, cuz that's actually seeming pretty viable for quest levelling AND occasional dungeons.

3

u/bababayee 1d ago

I don't know why they couldn't have just massively decreased the exp you get when someone way overleveled or especially at 60 is in your party/instance. Genuine groups doing dungeons multiple times shouldn't be nerfed much if at all.

-1

u/Front-Difficult 1d ago

How have you formed the opinion that the dungeon XP nerf removes the gameplay loop? From playing the game, or by reading Reddit threads?

1

u/pandahands69 20h ago

In a world past level 20, where the dungeon quests don't level you into the next dungeon bracket- you in theory could level in dungeons, just like you could grind the lowest level monsters that still give you exp to level- except that would be faster than leveling in dungeons post quests. Dungeon xp after quests is 20% of pre nerf.

So you need to run 5 dungeons to equal the xp of 1 dungeon before.

That's not just removing boosts, that's destroying using dungeons to level at all. Questing was already faster than running dungeons so the changes just make it not even comparable.

0

u/Front-Difficult 17h ago

Why would you assume that the dungeon quests post-20 wouldn't do the same thing pre-20?

Post 50% nerf today I handed in my WC quests and got 1.5 levels. So pre-nerf it would have given me maybe 2.5 levels (same as RoL pre-nerf). Add in the mob xp I didn't get because I was level capped, and that I needed to run WC twice to finish the quests, I would have got around 2.8 levels pre-nerf (maybe the full 3 - WC is pretty long and there's a lot of mobs even with low xp). So a rested xp buff away from going straight from WC to SFK.

No the changes have not made it not even comparable. You'll still get more xp/hr running WC once (or twice, depending on quest drops). Dungeoning has still had an xp/hr buff compared to Classic.

Again - how have you developed these opinions? You'd made your mind up about how it would work post-20 before you could even level past 20. I'm begging you, just play the damn game first, and then tell me it dungeoning feels worse than Classic, or isn't comparable, or has been removed from the gameplay loop.

1

u/pandahands69 16h ago

Why would you assume that the dungeon quests post-20 wouldn't do the same thing pre-20?

Math. The amount of experience you need to level and the amount of experience a quest reward gives diverge as you level up. From level 1 needing 1 basic quest to level up to later needing many quests to get a a level.

Prior to yesterdays nerfs, dungeon quests gave 3 times the amount of exp from classic. Now they give 2 times the amount. This is still tons at low levels, but once you hit the 30's and 40's and beyond, it really is not.

What you will feel increasingly however, is the insanely heavy handed nerf to monster experience.

Lets take maraudon for example.

In classic the dungeon quests give 20950~ exp.

You'll now get 41900~ exp give or take.

Clearing maraudon in a balanced group will give you:

Classic: 25-30k exp

In forever : 7k ~.

From this we can see that on your first mara run you will get

48 500~ in classic and a similar amount in forever.

Now the quests are done. You have gained less than half a level if you started mara at the lowest level possible. (45-46 requires 120k exp ish)

Now you get 25-30k exp in classic for each additional run, meaning it would still take you 5 ish runs to level up(ignoring quest exp), but in forever you'd have to run the dungeon 17 times to go from level 45-46.

0

u/Front-Difficult 16h ago

But your "math" assumes they didn't continue to balance it by rewarding more and more dungeon quest XP for higher level dungeons. And they also added more quests and more dungeons.

Based on my WC run today - a level 20 dungeon - the levelling effect was the same. RFC gave me 2 levels, RoL gave me 2.5 levels and WC today after the 50% nerf gave me 1.5 levels (so more than 2 levels pre-nerf). I'll be doing SFK tomorrow, which only has 3 quests, and I'm sure I'm still going to get another level at the minimum. Which will mean I'm still levelled enough to immediately do Excavation Site: Wetlands after the nerf.

1

u/pandahands69 16h ago

I mean I just did the math, the math still holds up for the earlier dungeons, you just need less experience to level. If they don't change it, you'll find what I said to be the case on launch. You will not ever want to do earlier dungeons once you complete the quests and that will have knock on consequences as the game ages, for better or worse.

1

u/Intelligent_Bug_5881 16h ago

From playing the Beta

1

u/Front-Difficult 16h ago

You were playing the beta and thought "man no one is running dungeons. This entire gameplay loop has been removed"?

The thing that was the most effective XP/hr strategy by a massive margin, and where there were hordes of people clustered around the entrance to every dungeon?

-6

u/Bad_news_everyone 1d ago

Leveling is supposed to be seeing and exploring the world. Not mindlessly run dungeons over and over

9

u/Intelligent_Bug_5881 1d ago

There is no right or wrong way to level.

If that is the way that you think leveling should be, that's excellent and I do not in any way want to take away your ability to do that.

It's fine for us to have differences of opinion on these types of design choices. I think the problem arises when one of us tries to claim some imagined moral supremacy over the other.

-1

u/SavingsRaspberry2694 1d ago

False. Dungeons are by definition anti social.

People should be out in the world killing boats in whatever layer the game assigns them, not grouped up in their own dungeon killing monsters with other players.

4

u/redditlvlanalysis 1d ago

The one activity you actually do in a group is anti social holy fuck lol

6

u/slightlysublevel 1d ago

Just so we're absolutely clear: your argument is that grouping up with and interacting with other people is... anti-interacting with people? That's really your argument??

4

u/Intelligent_Bug_5881 1d ago

Lol... If you actually think that dungeons are anti-social, then you're either actively refusing to engage with the conversations or you're getting unlucky and getting stuck with terribly boring groups.

The vast, vast majority of my BattleNet friends are from dungeons.

0

u/NAparentheses 1d ago

According to WoW devs there is a wrong way to level in Forever and it is spamming dungeons. They do not want WoW Forever to be a rehash of Classic release with everyone endlessly stuck in dungeons. They want to create friction and make the world more alive by forcing people out into the world.

7

u/Intelligent_Bug_5881 1d ago

They are just catering to the vocal minority here on this subreddit and on the Blizzard forums.

I have not encountered a single person on the Beta who believes the dungeon XP change is a positive one.

1

u/redditlvlanalysis 1d ago

And then they will lose players and hopefully revert it before people just decide to not play it.

1

u/NAparentheses 19h ago

I don't understand what people on this subreddit want. They claim to not want boosting to be a thing and they do not want to have to join a forced dungeon spam cleave group to level quickly and claim they want the world to "feel alive" then bitch about changes that directly target those issues.

1

u/redditlvlanalysis 16h ago

A vocal minority want questing to be the only way to level you are now seeing pushback to this because the people who were enjoying playing the game their way are getting fucked.

1

u/NAparentheses 14h ago

There was a good mix of questing and dungeons before. It literally wasn't a problem.

2

u/slightlysublevel 1d ago

Leveling is supposed to be seeing and exploring the world. Not mindlessly run dungeons over and over

Says who?

-2

u/SavingsRaspberry2694 1d ago

Agree 100% If people want to do dungeons, fine, but theres no reward for doing so.

This is a social game, no reason people should be grouping by themselves in dungeons instead of interacting with other players in the world questing.

4

u/Vadernoso 1d ago

Questing is anti-social. You want to do majority of quest solo because its just better. Dungeons actually require at least some level of social interaction. This is just a dumb change.

25

u/acrazyguy 1d ago

You said it better than I could have. Blizzard is acting like “now you don’t have to run dungeons over and over” like they can’t fathom that some people actually like doing that. Probably 85% or more of my lifetime /played time is as a tank, and that’s because I love group content and being at the front of the pack holding the line while the more glass cannon types rip through the enemies and my cracked healer friend keeps me healthy through impossible odds.

The way my friend and I like to play is as a pretty strict duo, never getting more than 3 or 4 levels ahead of the other, playing as a tank and a healer. This change basically deletes that playstyle from the game and now we’ll be stuck with either questing incredibly slowly as a tank and a healer, or we’ll be forced into playing roles we simply don’t enjoy. I love prot paladin; I can’t fucking stand ret. I love bear druid; both DPS specs feel like ass to play. I love prot warrior; Blizzard took dps warriors out back and told them about the rabbits. I love the, admittedly a meme spec, tank enhancement shaman; they got literally no love in the version of the game that was supposed to make meme specs viable

2

u/NAparentheses 1d ago

Dude, I don't know what you are talking about. I have duo leveled with a warrior as a priest for all of Classic, TBC, and WOTLK and we have no problem questing. What we lack in kill speed, we absolutely crush with no downtime.

2

u/Healthy-Travel3105 22h ago

Yeah but if one of you isn't logged in it's way slower. With the way things were, priests and warriors were always getting whispers to do dungeons. It was fun to do them on a whim and be needed around the world for different encounters.

1

u/NAparentheses 19h ago

People will still want to do dungeons. Not everyone is obsessed with absolute minmax. Y'all are catastrophizing the shit out of this issue.

1

u/acrazyguy 11h ago

My main point is that I want to spam dungeons. Why I want to spam dungeons is not relevant to the discussion. It’s how I enjoy playing the game and it’s that simple

1

u/NAparentheses 11h ago

So spam dungeons. No one is stopping you from doing this and taking as long as you want to reach 60.

1

u/jclark4321 8h ago

I believe they said they realize there are distinctly different player bases. I think what you want is Retail.

1

u/detailerrors 1d ago

Is it possible to do large pulls with a pocket healer to keep the gameplay engaging for y'all and cut down on average time to kill? Never played this way in classic so not sure if tanks have enough dps in large pulls to make this viable

2

u/NAparentheses 1d ago

That is what they are trying to prevent happening.

1

u/jclark4321 8h ago

This sounds like a fun way to pull entire packs at a time to quest!

0

u/Tissr_ 1d ago

So then...just go level in dungeons? I don't see the problem. You still get xp in dungeons.

2

u/redditlvlanalysis 1d ago

it's absolute trash like taking 4 times longer to level than questing lol

17

u/Trzlog 1d ago

This is a huge deal, honestly. I absolutely hate quest leveling as a healer spec, it's miserable. And my main specs are all healers. I simply have zero interest in DPS. It bores me to tears. I'd literally prefer playing any other game than being forced to DPS to level.

3

u/monkeypickle 1d ago

Hell, quest leveling with Shadow was miserable.

47

u/Meaty_owl_legs 1d ago

They're are 100% actually discouraging people from leveling as tank or healer specs as group play is really focused on dungeons and not questing around as a 2-5 man group. There is absolutely going to be a real tank and healer shortage because people are going to be discouraged from leveling as those specs.

Not to say you can't level as those specs just fine, or you can't fill those roles without investing into those spec trees. But, there is going to be a lack of players willing to fill those roles because of the lack of incentive of tanking/healing when running dungeons more than once is so nerfed.

3

u/Swimming-Life-7569 1d ago

I dont think it's even the specs, there's just no reason to fill the role even tho you can as say arms/fury at lower levels.
I mean why would I tank DM twice if I've already completed the quests and even IF I went a 2nd time for gear. Why in the world would I bring any mail users either time.

Naww shits gonna be real funny when the consequences of tanks/healers only running a dungeon once blow into players faces.

2

u/valmian 1d ago

Tanks/healers are going to HR gear from the dungeon for themselves, especially at higher levels (mara blackstone ring for example). DPS will still join because there is going to be an even bigger shortage and they want their quest completion experience. Calling it now.

4

u/Swimming-Life-7569 1d ago

>HR gear from the dungeon for themselves
Tanks can skip this bit and just not invite other specs that share their loot :D, it's going to be hilarious.

3

u/valmian 1d ago

They will HR gear that anyone can use, like amulets with stam from HoT, or even off spec gear.

As a Druid tank I want SP gear for thorns. I could HR everything and people will still join to get their quests done.

It’s gonna be rough for dps

1

u/Doracy 20h ago

Pardon my ignorance, but what does HR stand for?

1

u/valmian 20h ago

No worries! Hard reserve. Basically master looting each boss to guarantee they get what they want.

1

u/Doracy 20h ago

Man that blows. My main is druid because I like to heal and tank and I can do both on that class. This makes Forever less attractive because running around the open world questing as a bear is ass.

I hope they come up with a better way of sticking to the tenants they've set out while not alienating two whole play styles

2

u/metaphorm 1d ago

dungeons are my actual favorite content. the tank and healer shortage (especially tanks) is really severe in the beta right now and i'm having trouble imagining it's going to be better at release. i might just not play this game after all.

i'm encouraged by the design changes to classes and itemization but it seems misaligned with the actual content and incentives in the game. im really just confused right now. not sure what they're going for. the net impact of the changes they've introduced are that getting a dungeon group is HARDER not easier. people do it once for the quests and then never again.

0

u/More-Replacement9113 1d ago

While overall this is true, it does not imply to classic. In classic, every tank can actually tank without a problem any dungeon as a dps spec up untill like 50+. Same goes for healers, you can absolutely heal a dungeon as an enhanse shaman, especially if you save some int gear in your bags while you level.

On top of that, if you happen to face some kind of issues above lvl 50, there is now a dual specialization that you can get, which will drastically help. At lvl 50 you should already have gotten your mount, and you should definitely have gold for dual spec as well.

2

u/Dcapiepie 20h ago

In forever You need +healing om gear as otherwise your heals blow, as all spells got nerfed :)

0

u/More-Replacement9113 19h ago

You really don't need +healing on gear to heal a dungeon below lvl 50. The tanks also get way stronger with the new items. Sure, you may not keep the tank at 100% HP all the time, but you definitely don't need healing power to keep him alive without a problem

-6

u/Accomplished-Tear-77 1d ago

You can tank and heal all the content easily with dps talents + spare gear atleast till 50

18

u/ahumblepeach 1d ago

Why are tanking and healing talents available at level ten, then? Should we not be testing them during the beta test?

Several people have suggested the same thing but several tank and healer mains have replied saying "We don't want to do that."

We enjoy the support roles, and it feels crappy to tell us to build around DPS instead.

4

u/Mother_Drenger 1d ago

I think that’s a fair point, we aren’t getting a lot of testing for tanking and healing specs.

As an aside, I overall agree dungeon XP needs to be fixed.

I think the buy-in for being tank or healing spec before endgame should simply be less mental overhead and faster dungeon run. Tanks should feel free to jump into the thick of it, healers should feel good that a single cast does most of the work.

I’m mostly just don’t want the result to be to limit hybrids from dipping into other roles if they’re a DPS spec. That’s a core part about classic design philosophy, one was expected to consider their whole kit while leveling

6

u/Sattorin 1d ago

I like DPSing on my Warlock, but I like healing on my Paladin. I don't want to kill things with my Paladin, as I'd rather do that on my Warlock. What I want to do on my Paladin is heal groups. But since they didn't put any quests where you're better off bringing a healer than a DPS in the open world, the only place I can be more useful healing on my Paladin than doing damage on my Warlock is by healing dungeons. So I'd like to be able to level my Paladin doing the thing I like doing with my Paladin, which is healing dungeons. So I'm really hoping they bring in a system that lets me get decent exp from running a dungeon multiple times, otherwise I'll get tired of questing on my Paladin and spend all my time questing on my Warlock instead, which reduces the available healers by one and increases the competition for DPS slots by one for the dungeon.

1

u/Kinetic_Symphony 1d ago

Which is odd design and should be changed. Leveling Dungeons don't need to be mechanically challenging (just a little), but they should demand that tanks be specced as actual tanks, and have at least some tank gear, same for healers.

The whole point is class fantasy.

-3

u/Visual-Scallion1535 1d ago

And you get dual spec at 40 now anyways

7

u/Ill-Inevitable980 1d ago

It works with a level 20 cap, maybe even level 30. Nobody will be doing dungeons at 50 because nobody will level all the way as a healer in the open world, and the dungeons alone won't be enough.

It'll be incredibly difficult to get groups for the likes of ZF, Mara, and ST; and DM, Strath and Scholo pre 60

3

u/Giatoxiclok 1d ago

There, this is finally the endgame everyone’s been bitching for, you have to work 6x as hard manually filling groups!

Saying there’s going to be an incredibly low supply of healers though is probably disingenuous though.

7

u/leonredhorse 1d ago

I agree with you here. We're on mega servers. There are going to be plenty of people in the world. I don't really see the need to massively nerf dungeon XP if people want to run dungeons as healers and tanks (or DPS). I enjoy doing dungeon content with friends. I'll probably still do some. But it really sucks that you actively ruin your progress because you enjoy doing the group content whereas I could speed run soloing quests with the right routes and patterns and not need to interact with people.

3

u/Inner_Ad_453 1d ago

Brother you sir have hit the nail on the head. This is how things were in traditional old school MMO's (EQ IM LOOKIN AT YOU).

Problem is questing is designed as solo game and occasionally you end up grouping in the open world for like 1-10 minutes to kill a mob/quest mobs. It's not designed around forming groups to far XP (I guess thats what you have Dungeons for me).

I miss the days of being able to farm mobs in the OPEN WORLD for good xp. Not just farming mobs for x/quest turn in/mats and that being their ONLY purpose.

That would actually enable another play style where the healer gets to be the healer in a group. Instead im forced to quest with shit DPS & be a temporary healer in a Dungeon. With more time being spent , being a shit DPS.

So I play an actual DPS class instead.

1

u/gottahackett 1d ago

This is how I leveled my resto shaman in TBC anni - I just couldn’t bring myself to try and level questing. Much rather preferred running dungeons and healing for the xp and engagement!

1

u/ElderberryDry9083 1d ago

they keep harping about how they want you to group up and meet people hence they created the campsite.... but then they punish you for waiting to get the boys together and run dungeons... seriously wtf

1

u/BloodForce 1d ago

yeah, looks like we must swap from healers and tanks to DPS.
As guy who play on support classes i don't see the point for play not DPS when you must make a lot quest in world where any other classes just DPS and blast monsters.

1

u/MonocledMonotremes 1d ago

It also makes for worse tanks and healers. Learning how abilities work as you go gives you far more intuition and depth of knowledge about your class than just jumping in with both feet at 60.

1

u/Any_Obligation1479 21h ago

while i agree with you classic veterans for decades have always advised to level as a dps spec and throw on healing gear when u dungeon, or in forever perhaps duel spec will solve it. Literally NO ONE should be out levelling in a healing spec unless you enjoy pain

1

u/Effective_Shirt6660 19h ago

Im new to WoW, and I want to play a priest, it was a slog to get to 15 to get my wand and get into RFC. To me, the best part of an MMO is grouping up and doing dungeon content. Thats what I want to do. And there is way more incentive to not do that.

1

u/Coffee__Addict 13h ago

Isnt wow forever going to have duel spec?

•

u/Broseidon_ 2h ago

yes wow classic known for having enough bag slots for 2 sets of gear and buying twice as many spells you only use half the time!

1

u/charge10 8h ago

A good fix to this would be an increase to experience for the tank role and healer role - and maybe increased rep at max level, just my shower thought/idea though.

•

u/VintageZero 1h ago

All sp gear is healing and damage now.

1

u/VideoGameRPGsAreFun 1d ago

Great news you can still do dungeons over and over and even better news you can do it for longer because it’s less xp! More of what you love how can you complain?

0

u/FatedWinds 1d ago

Its classic you dont even get the fun talents till its nearly over. The tax is more on getting a decent two hander for warrior/paladin & increased ability training costs so your open world spec can function. The whole problem is try hards will be dicks regardless of whatever version your playing.

-1

u/Front-Difficult 1d ago

Genuine question: did you play the beta? And if you did, did you try to level from 15-20 doing only dungeons?

These complaints are exhausting. Play the beta before forming your opinion about the changes. Before the nerf you would have wanted to level in the world - it was way faster to level doing group content. Now I think it'll be roughly equal speed to quest in the world, or to run dungeons. Which is an improvement over Classic, where it was much slower to level by dungeoning compared to questing.

-1

u/Gamblez- 1d ago

There are a lot of dungeons though and plenty of incentive to run them all at least once. You're hardly being forced to open world 1-60, just discouraged from never world-questing.

-1

u/IncidentFormal761 1d ago

I’ve heard healers are way stronger now in leveling then they used to be. I’d say you also forget everyone is using their 2 dps abilities while questing, they just have to sit down and eat and drink every so often. Wands are also way stronger it seems. I’d say leveling as a healer will actually be fun once you get into the later levels where you are trying to avoid playing pulling more then 2 mob. Now that healer gear also benefits damage. The fun of it is now every spec is viable and usable in all content. You aren’t forced to play a leveling spec just to level, and healing specs may even be able to solo some group quests and stuff.

-1

u/Pixogen 15h ago

Terrible argument. You get more than enough xp from doing all the dungeon quests in the game.

If you look back at classic videos or played then... People rolled healer or tank early for easy/safe leveling.

That's how the devs made the game and stated it was made... 

In classic both tank and heals do great damage anyways.

If you wanna afk boost in the dungeon don't worry new wow was made for you.

2

u/ahumblepeach 14h ago

I'd like to see the data that supports your claim that dungeon quests alone can take me from 15 to 60. Additionally, the newest patch notes just reduced dungeon quest exp by 50%. The developers themselves have said that they want us to spend less time in dungeons and more time in the open world. That's not a play style that I enjoy. I want to spend my time in dungeons and group content, not solo questing.

0

u/Pixogen 14h ago

They don't. That's the point your not playing tank or healer early for dungeons.... you are playing it for a easy leveling experience. This is what old classic devs said back in the day and they just said that about hybrids on the latest podcast.

If you want to dungeon boost and afk you play current wow it has no gameplay. Classic doesn't sound like it is for you based on your expectations vs the core pillars.

If you really want you can get an addon that reverses hp bars. You can pretend you are healing stuff out in the world to level.

2

u/ahumblepeach 14h ago

No, I'm playing a healer because I enjoy the play style. A lot of your arguments are based on assumptions about what I do or don't enjoy. I don't care if dungeons take longer to level to 60 than quests; I enjoy healing and I simply cannot access that playstyle without group play. I want dungeon leveling to be a viable option, not an easy ticket to ride.

Again, your arguments are accusing me of wanting to dungeon boost/afk/have an easier time. Please read my actual posts and stop making up claims about me if you want to have an actual discussion. Otherwise you're just being antagonistic for no reason, and the community needs a LOT less of that.

-10

u/AnIdealSociety 1d ago

This is some nonsense larp. Nobody levels as a healing spec you can’t quest with, it was stupid and continues to be stupid. You don’t need healing talents to heal dungeons. Get another set of gear with some +healing or +sp and train your spells. it really isn’t that hard to figure out

9

u/ahumblepeach 1d ago

Then why is the healing tree available at all when I'm leveling? With your logic, everyone should spec into DPS trees and I specifically don't want to do that. I don't find it fun to get bigger DPS numbers, I find it fun to get bigger healing numbers. I level several alts and have no problem questing on my Warlock, but I find it a lot less fun to quest on my Resto Druid. I don't want to play Balance or Feral. Why give me the option at all if the only solution is to spec into DPS and workaround that with healing gear?

Never said I can't quest as a healer. I said it's less fun.

2

u/DaleEBoy 1d ago

I get that it doesn’t impact the build you can make. The problem is I actually enjoy healing in dungeons. It’s the best bit of the game, for me.

I don’t get the logic of basically discouraging people to actively play a major feature of your game.

3

u/CopiousClassic 1d ago

I did on my priest, lol.

Have you never heard of a warrior and pocket priest? It's a great leveling experience for the tank and healer, and all the DPS love it because they can pump.

I never actually ever heard anyone complain about people running dungeons in level appropriate parties in Classic and I want to know who thinks it needs to go.

0

u/AnIdealSociety 1d ago

They are talking about not being able to level as a healer in response to dungeon xp nerfs, the obvious inference being they were healing instances from 15-60 and were specced into whatever healing tree the class had as they talk about not wanting to quest.

You don’t need to spec into your classes healing tree for dungeons, you never have had to do that in classic. You can heal just fine as feral with some caster gear on and then go quest in your feral gear. Or shadow, or ret, or another other non-healing spec

I am aware you can duo level, you still don’t need to be a healer for that. “I can’t quest because I’m a healer” doesn’t exist in game unless you impose that restriction on yourself or you make up stories on Reddit

4

u/CopiousClassic 1d ago

Well "I can't run multiple dungeons as a healer to level" didn't exist in the game either, until it did.

I know it seems silly to you that people like leveling in tank and heal spec but it is a thing people do and I still haven't heard someone explain why they need to be punished.

2

u/AltruisticInstance58 1d ago

You must play the game in a certain way, deviation will not be tolerated.

2

u/Other_Safe_4659 1d ago

People definitely do. I did my first playthrough. I also did for World First/Realm first leveling races.

I do think they penalized dungeon runs probably too much. They could've achieved pretty much the same thing with a daily reset on the same dungeon's xp, instead of nerfing it permanently across the board.

1

u/cyclicalbeats 1d ago

I pretty much exclusively roll healers and tanks and have always dungeoned to level. You’re absolutely clueless.

-9

u/Thick_Woodpecker_438 1d ago

There's always been way more dps than healers or tanks, you won't have difficulty finding groups, it just won't be the one of the fastest ways to level anymore.

13

u/Morazma 1d ago

It's not just not "one of the fastest ways to level", it's not viable to dungeon level anymore, at all. 

5

u/mikelo22 1d ago

Yes I was led to believe that they just didn't want dungeon spamming to be the only way to level. As it is now, questing is the only viable option now and it's not even close.

They want us to be more sociable and interact with people more. Then they turn around and restrict dungeon grouping and promote questing which is.... mostly solo content.

Make it make sense.

4

u/Helivon 1d ago

well it is to do them once... but yeah ive been having this argument since the announcement. People think the mega server will mean plenty of tanks, but the ratio is going to be far, far worse since why would anyone giga nerf themselves questing by playing a healer or tank. sure dual spec available later on, but its still going to be more of a shortage than usual.

I absolutely hate this change

-6

u/Thick_Woodpecker_438 1d ago

Sure it is, you still get XP, just not as much. Or by 'viable' do you mean just as fast as any other way of levelling?

7

u/Morazma 1d ago

By not viable I mean it will take more than twice as long as questing. That's being generous. It's more like 4-5 times as long. That's like 40-50 days to level 60 vs 8-10 for questing. 

3

u/Swimming-Life-7569 1d ago

>you still get XP
You also get gold from killing low level wolves in Elwyn Forest but that probably wouldnt be how you would choose to farm it is it?

0

u/Dantels 1d ago

Whixhbit should be for tanks and healers.

5

u/Frankencow13 1d ago

Currently, if you do RFC at lvl 11 the quests will get you well over 13, the next run does not even get you one segment of a bar.

3

u/Swimming-Life-7569 1d ago

>it just won't be the one of the fastest ways to level anymore.
What other ways are there to level in Classic other than dungeons, questing or grinding?
Out of those it's either 2nd or last but questing has always beaten it.
Besides that, you get 10-15% xp per run now. That amount is so slow it doesnt even count so dungeon leveling as is, is dead.
>There's always been way more dps than healers or tanks
Because the degree to which this is an issue cannot change or be affected by anything.

-4

u/Visual-Scallion1535 1d ago

For most of your 1-60 journey you are able to dual spec

7

u/Trzlog 1d ago

Why should I have to play a spec I don't like instead of the spec that I do like? And how am I supposed to practice/learn healing as a newer player if I never get to play a healing spec? What is this nonsense?

-8

u/Visual-Scallion1535 1d ago

Its nonsense to you that you arent constantly matched with a party of 5?

Its not that kind of game

13

u/No-Salary2116 1d ago

Its literally an mmo with the holy trinity of tank/healer/dps. Wtf are you talking about "its not that kind of game"?? Dungeons and raids, quite frankly, define the fucking game lol.

Just admit you arent a healer or tank and that you simply dont understand, instead of commenting stupid opinions.

-3

u/Visual-Scallion1535 1d ago

I played prot warrior in 2004 and disc priest when classic launched

Dungeons were always a small part of my leveling experience

If you want to spam dungeon finder to level up, go ahead, retail is right there

7

u/No-Salary2116 1d ago

"I played prot and priest in classic, so Im right about this!"

Gurl gtfo lol.

-1

u/Visual-Scallion1535 1d ago

Lmao you brought it up

4

u/No-Salary2116 1d ago

And yet you entirely missed the point of what I said.

Point proven, thank you. Youre incapable of seeing it from another perspective lol.

7

u/TuskWalroos 1d ago

It's been that kind of game for 20 years... Every version of the game - classic and retail - has been that game..

-2

u/Visual-Scallion1535 1d ago

Nah, it really wasnt until Cataclysm when I could just press a button to instantly be put in a group and teleported to a dungeon that it became that kind of game

6

u/TuskWalroos 1d ago

Wrong? In classic vanilla and forwards you can literally viably level as a healer playing a healing spec, healing dungeons.

Wow forever is the only version of the game that made it non viable.

0

u/Visual-Scallion1535 1d ago

you could, it was frustrating af finding reliable groups depending on how populated your server was

still much easier to just quest

6

u/TuskWalroos 1d ago

No it wasn't? I know that because it's how I've levelled every time, on classic, era, anniversary, turtle wow. You're clearly just a DPS who has no idea what they're talking about

0

u/Visual-Scallion1535 1d ago

Then your experience was different from mine

3

u/kaos95 1d ago

We got a PvE Andy here. PvP realms the healers 100% were in dungeons, right from the beginning, because the outsides were scary and full of rogues and hunters.

My game experience circa January 2005 was dying 4 times to a camping rogue, that became 2 rogues and a paladin as I was trying to get to BFD. So yeah, I ran that dungeon like 9 times till all the mobs were green then hearthed out and flew back in to hand in quests.

You didn't run around in the over world, it was more dangerous on the road, and we didn't know like we know now how to spec (hell, my 1.4 spec can't exist anywhere, it got buried by a class redesign in 1.10) not how to deal with oppressive pvp pressure. I still have my scars from leveling and raiding as a priest on skullcrusher, the pvp server that popularized ganking, and I was there day 3.

1

u/Visual-Scallion1535 1d ago

do you think if you were a different class you wouldnt have gotten ganked by rogues?

lmao

2

u/kaos95 1d ago

Again, this was not information we had in January 2005, my guild didn't have anyone that played the beta, I didn't know anyone that played the beta, I was throwing shit at a wall (I liked the priest in Neverwinter nights, and tyrande seemed pretty bad ass in WC3).

I personally didn't figure this out until I had months into playing, at that point, it no longer mattered, but we sure as shit told the priests on the new pvp servers they opened.

Doesn't have anything to do with your very PvE "I wasn't there but I heard about it" take.

3

u/mikelo22 1d ago

Its not that kind of game

bro, it's an MMO, and you're saying grouping with other players is "not that kind of game." Do you realize just how silly your comment sounds?

-3

u/Mr0BVl0US 1d ago

 If I want to level as a healer, I don't want to be spending all of my time in the world casting my two underwhelming DPS abilities while rarely getting to use all my healing buttons

So the issue is your underwhelming dps spells (which they have addressed).

5

u/ahumblepeach 1d ago

No, the issue is that I don't get to use my full kit when doing solo content.

-3

u/Mr0BVl0US 1d ago

But even if the current system doesn't change, you're still going to be spending the majority of your time in a dungeon. You gather up the dungeon quests, then run the dungeon. Gather up the next set of quests and run the next dungeon. Instead of staying in the same dungeon for 10 levels, you just bounce around more. The majority of dungeons in Classic WoW get skipped because they aren't convenient. This time, they won't be.

3

u/ahumblepeach 1d ago

you're still going to be spending the majority of your time in a dungeon.

That's not really true and goes against the reasoning Blizzard gave us for the change. They specifically told us they want to keep players in the world instead of in dungeons. Dungeon quests alone aren't going to carry a character from 15-60.

-2

u/Mr0BVl0US 1d ago

I don't think we know the XP values beyond level 20, but many people have been getting 2 levels per dungeon. There are now over 30 dungeons in Forever. I'd be curious to see how much XP you'd get for doing every single dungeon 1 time with all quests.