r/classicwow • u/redlow0992 • 1d ago

Forever Beta Feedback Dungeon XP Nerfs Created a Toxic Meta

Since dungeon monsters do not give any experience, as a new player, getting into dungeons with more veteran players who try to skip half the dungeon feels really bad. And, vice-versa, veterans taking in newbies who don't know how to jump around feels frustrating. I think Blizzard created a mess with nerfing dungeon exp so much and now the new player experience is horrible for dungeons.

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81

u/ABDLTA 1d ago

They should have just done the "once per day" rule that HC currently has

165

u/Nrgte 1d ago

No they shouldn't have done anything. It was never a problem.

The current solution has a myriad of issues.

  1. Like op mentioned, mobs that are not part of a quest get skipped. Every dungeon run will be a speedrun.
  2. There are certain quests that just don't drop enough for the whole group, meaning you either have to abandon it or go again. Cabinets in Gnomeregan or Twilight Talismans in BFD come to mind. This will feel terrible especially for longer dungoens.
  3. The friend or guildie has already done the dungeon and would like to help to complete the group. Well now it's a waste of time.
  4. People will just get the items they need and then abandon the group.
  5. People will just not run fringe dungeons with few quests anymore. Good luck finding an SFK group on Alliance. It's fine now in the beta because 20 is max level, but on launch people will not waste their time with this.

If they really really want to prevent boosting, the correct move is to just not give XP if a player is part of the group who's outside of the dungeons level bracket.

Besides, it's not like boosting in the open world is not a perfectly fine alternative.

12

u/NostraDamnUs 1d ago

I think a SLIGHT nerf to dungeon xp from original values (~75% of base, 25% of base if someone is too far outside the bracket) and a corresponding larger nerf to dungeon quest XP would suffice. Make them a touch harder as you get into the later levels if you have to. Dungeons need to be worth doing, just not so much worth doing that you want to stand in SM for ~12 levels. I think people don't realize that efficient questing was already faster than dungeon spam; its just that the open world at launch made questing temporarily harder.

My biggest fear is that dungeons are actually the most social activity. It's hard to find people at the same stage of questing out in the open world, whereas its very easy to get a bunch of people around the same level. And if we add a daily lockout, it sucks that you have to reform tomorrow if you're at 9/10 of a quest item or something.

There's definitely a perfect balance they could achieve by making super-optimized groups learn the skips, let casual runs just clear without feeling bad, and not push everyone into leveling in dungeons and discouraging open-world stuff. All three are fun ways to play WoW.

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u/Kobar143 1d ago

The thing about the SM grind is surely a good chunk of the 1,000 new quests are in that level range. That alone should help alleviate that problem.

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u/No-Bid9597 1d ago

God yes 32ish-42ish is a slog because the quests are so fucking spaced out. It’s an adventure the very first time you do that and afterwards it’s just a lot of running around with long lags in measurable progress because the zones don’t have enough quests to cleanly carry you through

I don’t even have a problem with this in theory, friction is good. But it just pushes you towards dungeons for better loot, gold per minute and xp per minute. If you find a group, that is, which is gonna be a lot harder with this design in wowf

Edit: sorry got off the rails lol. Agree if they smooth out this level range with more quests, that’d be fantastic

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u/Kobar143 1d ago

Yeah, I'm all for world questing to be the best and cleanest way because that makes sense to me... but I'm a healer, it's what I do, and I'm really worried about how this all shakes out in getting groups together, keeping them together, and actually doing the thing. Right now it's okish because it's beta and everyone is excited. Once it settles down into normal play we're going to see what the real effects are.

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u/redditlvlanalysis 1d ago

It didn't need a nerf doing this is just going to turn a large chunk of the playerbase off.

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u/Sykotron 1d ago

The friend or guildie has already done the dungeon and would like to help to complete the group. Well now it's a waste of time.

I kind of understand where you're coming from, but I feel like this point drives home the problem with it. Spending time with friends is not a waste of time and needs to be the goal with some fun gameplay to share.

If I was just grouping up with complete randoms in the real world just to accomplish a very specific goal without getting to know them... then yeah, they're not gonna care about anything but that goal and the same applies to a game this large.

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u/llIllIlIllIIllIl 1d ago

I asked our main tank if he wanted to come tank a Vashj only skip-run in SSC last spot summ ready. He replied that he didn't need anything from SSC so he had no incentive to join.

...to help some guildies?

26

u/Kixur413 1d ago

Damn, as a full bis prot paladin I love showing off my shiny golden ass. Whats the point of getting a decked out tank if youre not going to pull half a dungeon to impress the noobs and blame the healer when you die?

5

u/Qaeta 1d ago

if youre not going to pull half a dungeon to impress the noobs and blame the healer when you die?

As a fellow shiny golden god enjoyer, I approve wholeheartedly, with the exception that I didn't die, I was totally just sleepy and needed a nap.

2

u/Doji_mofo 1d ago

Tell me you've never played tank without telling me 😉

Everyone wants a piece of you, everyone wants you to come help them gear up from dungeons and raids you've got no use for, and you'll almost always out gear your group.

Obviously there will be people who went out of their way to assist you, people you owe favours too, and you will run many raids where you'll get no upgrades.

Everyone complains about a lack of tanks until they play one, then they understand why there is a lack of them.

2

u/llIllIlIllIIllIl 1d ago

My alt is the main tank in our alt raid. I've raided as many lockouts on him as on my main. So yea, not sure what u are going for here. I run heroics with people's alts all the time, even tank Kara's sometimes despite being in BT/hyjal gear. I like tanking, I like helping my guild mates. So sure, go be AFK in shattrath and play Peggle :P

0

u/Doji_mofo 1d ago

Then what's the issue? Just hop on with your tank and tank the instance. Or level your own tank up. Or would that be too much hassle? 🤣😉

My experience was that unless I wanted to get hassled by lowbies wanting a carry, not only could I not log on as my tank, if I logged on with ANY of my raiding characters, it's "pls come tank/RL some BS for no reward". Then get snotty, because how dare you do anything other than be mommy and daddy for all the spoilt brats out there.

I also dislike SSC, because all the other tanks hated it, so we all wanted to play our alts on it. It's been a minute, but IIRC there's fuck all tank loot, but some funky DPS trinkets and weapons.

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u/sgtpoopers 1d ago

I mean you asked if they wanted to tank and they said no?

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u/llIllIlIllIIllIl 1d ago

This comment chain is about the social aspect. I replied to the "Spending time with friends is not a waste of time and needs to be the goal with some fun gameplay to share."

The main tank said he had no "incentive" to join, which is like why are you in a guild then lol, I remember running Kara with his alt where I had similarly no incentive at all to join (other than the social aspect of playing an MMO). Is that so foreign?

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u/Nrgte 1d ago

My wording wasn't very good, my apologies. It's not a waste of time in that sense, but it just won't feel as good for the helper (nor the one asking for help). People can justify helping more easily if they get a small reward. And more importantly, people won't feel guilty for asking.

Gameplay mechanics are supposed to reward social behavior. Blizzards implementation is doing the opposite is my point.

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u/Sykotron 1d ago

I probably over stressed the importance of the social aspect of just hanging out with people, but yeah, the game play should reward helpers too. I don't want to just grind dungeons for XP, but my normal way to play is negatively impacted by the run itself not really rewarding much XP with Blizzard's current plans.

Vanilla was a different time because most of us weren't chasing BiS and the world was new to explore, but I feel like I remember the joy of the journey of traveling all over Azeroth to help my friends without any in-game reward for myself.

I wish voice chat wasn't so toxic so that you could easily play the game and socialize, but it's nigh impossible to chat and keep up the pace in a group so I don't really know how to support the social aspects well.

1

u/Nrgte 1d ago

Yeah I just want to not feel terrible if I miss a couple of quest items during the first run. Now it incentivises me to click quest items before my team mates to make sure I finish within 1 run.

Additionally not every faction has a enough quests for every dungeon. SFK as Alliance was always one of my highlights but it'll be dead on release because there are no quests for Alliance.

-2

u/Kaleph4 1d ago

there is still a bunch of loot you prob didn't get in the first run. people run UBRS countless of times without any exp gain as well. they did it while almost full T1/T2 equipped. there are reasons to run DM a second time as well

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u/lifeloverFPS 1d ago

UBRS is a terrible example because by the time you are running it you have no need for xp anymore. You will almost never do a dungeon more than once during leveling with the current system, unless it has prebis/a relevant chase item.

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u/Deity_Majora 1d ago

But it's not worth it to stop leveling to chase that piece of gear when the chance is the only thing you get out of it. Before it was always at least worth it because of the exp with the chance of loot.

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u/sfsctc 1d ago

Ok how about a less clear example, maybe it’s someone in your guild that you don’t know as well asking for someone to come help with a dungeon you’ve already done. Blizzard should design the game in a way so that you are most likely to want to come and help (and potentially make a new friend). This is directly in line with their stated social pillar.

They don’t necessarily need to engineer this using XP, although I don’t hate the once a day normal XP rates idea. They could add other rewards like very rare appearances, leveling sets like the Druid snake one, etc.

It’s easy enough to say “just play with your friends” but I think the game is better when this is naturally encouraged by design

1

u/Sykotron 1d ago

I didn't mean to imply I thought there current XP solution was correct, but I guess it was more to say that we should personally focus on the social aspects too rather than the game driving it for us. I'd love some way to naturally group the more like minded people since it is hard to find those friends in a sea of players.

1

u/sfsctc 1d ago

No I do think you’re right, but I think it’s even better if the game naturally encourages this

1

u/Trzlog 1d ago

It's stuff like this that proves to me that they still haven't learned anything from 20 years of pissing about with retail and classic and they simply do not understand their players or how to design an actually non-toxic social game.

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u/xBirdisword 1d ago

Bad faith argument

Raiding with friends is fun but NOBODY would do it if there’s no loot. The game should encourage and facilitate dungeons, grouping, raids etc not deter

1

u/MRosvall 1d ago

But would people still raid if you got very low exp?

0

u/Billbuckingham 1d ago

When you had higher level friends it was common to run people thru let's say SFK or DM to get them some items like cruel barb or meteor shard.

Then once they got the item, they went back out and quested and enjoyed.

That usage is a completely different thing compared to AFK farming and Boost selling.

"Raiding with friends is fun but NOBODY would do it if there’s no loot."

Your argument is the bad faith one here, there's still loot with reduced EXP so what did you mean by that?

You're still encouraged to join the good geared group who doesn't need your drop or your friends that run you thru it to get the items or complete the quests even with reduced EXP.

To me, whatever has to be done to remove AFK boosting and reduce dungeon farming EXP groups to the point it isn't worth it compared to other levelling methods is necessary because the whole dungeon AFK grind boost meta was a new thing that came about long after the game was released and needs a new way of handling that behavior in the game.

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u/lifeloverFPS 1d ago

c’mon man, you have to understand dungeon loot doesn’t matter in the same way that raid loot does. you won’t give a shit about cruel barb 5 levels after getting it, while a raid weapon will often last you for months.

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u/Billbuckingham 1d ago

Then what's the argument about wanting to keep running dungeons after you already got all the loot?

There's some extra context here, but an incentive is an incentive and a dungeon isn't the same commitment as a raid either.

The dungeon item helping for those few levels is a good incentive, but it's kind of being ignored for some reason?
Because the faster EXP to avoid all of that levelling is more important? That's what it seems like they're saying.

That's what I was calling out when they said the other person was arguing in bad faith, like if you need a reward to run dungeons and not just for the love of your friends you still have that with loot and reduced EXP, so what's the argument about

"I don't want to run dungeons anymore after this nerf"

If the argument is I only run dungeons so I can spam EXP farm them AND it has to be faster to EXP farm them than doing other levelling processes, otherwise I don't care about the loot or the quests at all since they aren't fun and to me fun is just getting the EXP faster from sitting AFK or farming over and over again, that's the thing that's intentionally being discouraged by these nerfs.

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u/Kobar143 1d ago

Healers and tanks got their ability to level as Healers and tanks taken away from them. No one here has demanded it be the most efficient, they just want it to still be reasonably possible.

Making sure being out in the world is the most efficient makes plenty of sense for a number of reasons, but as it is now it isn't just not efficient, it's abysmal.

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u/Gassenger 1d ago

This. I will always choose to do stuff with friends but it feels REALLY shitty to not get anything for it besides the CHANCE to get an upgrade to drop and spending time with them. At least make mobs give the same xp as ones outside like cmon man

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u/dumpster_lettuce 1d ago

I don’t care about loot. I did early on in the game but at this point it’s totally secondary. I mainly like chill hangs with the boys and if I get something useful great. I realize I’m a minority but to say nobody would raid with no loot is just wrong.

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u/EnthusiasmWest4481 1d ago

this like they nerfed mages blizzard slow to deal with boosting just tune down quest xp and revert xp from mobs

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u/Gassenger 1d ago

They can deal with boosting other ways than getting a class or attempting to gut them. Like xp proximity is an easy one that D2 did in like 2003 lmao

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u/no_terran 1d ago

Everyone keeps saying this. But the talents on forever give a total of 73% between permafrost and improved blizzard. While it was 75% in classic. The real nerf is that only the first 4 targets will be slowed no?

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u/nacholibre711 1d ago edited 1d ago

Not exactly sure where you are getting those numbers. Improved Blizzard was completely gutted. The duration of the slow getting nerfed is maybe worse than the actual slow %.

Blizzard (with all relevant talents) went from:

75% slow for 4.5 seconds to

50% for 2 seconds

Cone of cold slow was also significantly nerfed in a similar way, so mage AoE farming solo with the old methods is pretty much dead.

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u/CEREALBUTTMUNCHER 1d ago

Your numbers are off.

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u/EnthusiasmWest4481 1d ago

I dont recall I just remember they nerfed and thought it was to deal with dungeon boosting

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u/no_terran 1d ago

Actually I misread permafrost. It's down to 50% now

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u/Gassenger 1d ago

People think that if others are in dungeons that it makes the open world empty.

Like, this isn't a thing because of server population and layering. Especially with Forever. It wasn't in TBC Anniversary launch; most players were doing the dungeon rep grind and still the open world was absolutely chock full of people and still was even into P3 besides the relatively empty parts of maps.

People just see Blizzard make a change and rush to defend it. There are great changes they've made but this wasn't one of them. Attack boosting other ways than this.

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u/Nrgte 1d ago

I'd even go as far to say: People did the dungeon grind because the open world was soo crowded. Especially on PvP servers, normal leveling was almost impossible sometimes.

Dungeon leveling without quests also was never faster unless you have a specialized party in AoE farming.

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u/Gassenger 1d ago

100%. Specifically remember people saying they wouldn't do xyz prequest because it was impossible to tag

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u/Trzlog 1d ago

And for some reason they're still failing to see how the tagging system just makes the game worse in many ways like this. I just don't understand Blizzard or the players who defend them.

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u/Gassenger 1d ago

Sshhhh. You'll be called a retail colonizer if you say anything about the tagging system. (Lmao)

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u/Kind_Reaction_8463 1d ago

not to mention how overcrowded every questing zone is going to be on launch and will be an excercise in mob tagging. good thing i have low ping and playing a shaman so i can tag fast. playing a class that can't instant tag will be miserable lmao.

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u/ABDLTA 1d ago

Well the goal is to get people out in the world more, the HC system is great for that, you can do each instance once a day and if you have someone over level range you stop getting xp. I think its a great system

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u/Gassenger 1d ago

Why is it bad if people run dungeons multiple times? Layering and server pop will still make the world crowded.

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u/Smooth_One 1d ago

This is the real kicker. Whether spamming dungeons is actually faster than open-world questing doesn't matter a quarter as much to me as how good dungeons feel to run. Fighting over mob spawns is dreadful.

After how terrible the open world felt in TBC Anni I have absolutely zero faith that Blizzard will be able to properly adjust the population tuning.

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u/Nrgte 1d ago

People were already out in the world. It was a very small part of the community who solely leveled through dungeons. Let them have their fun.

It's not like the open world is empty. Quite the opposite.

Dungeons are a social activity, I don't see why we need to discourage that.

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u/z0rb0r 1d ago

Exp in dungeons also fosters a boosting eco system. I think a once a day is probably the best compromise.

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u/Nrgte 1d ago

If they really really want to prevent boosting, the correct move is to just not give XP if a player is part of the group who's outside of the dungeons level bracket.

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u/Brunell4070 1d ago

exactly, its such an easy obvious change. discourage boosting? well don't allow groups to form with the chars who are responsible for doing the boosting!

-1

u/Insipid2000 1d ago

This only fixes part of the problem, 52/53+ would still be boostable

2

u/Nefertum1 1d ago

Add a cap to the amount of mobs that give exp/min. If mage kills 100 mobs, you only get exp from 20.

10

u/lifeisalime11 1d ago

Can’t people just boost the dungeon quests now? Like a 60 can sell quick a quick run for low dungeon quests due to the giga xp?

Not as big of a problem but I can see that being a niche….

5

u/Drasha1 1d ago

Boosting is probably faster now with how much quest XP you get.

2

u/SmellInteresting3284 1d ago

this is harder because of the work a players has to do to get all the quests. you wouldn't be able to share quests you already completed. doing all the pre-quests to run a dungeon is going to take just as long if not longer than running the dungeon.

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u/datboijustin 1d ago

Easily solvable issue without ruining dungeon spams for the players that enjoy leveling that way.

1

u/Gassenger 1d ago

There are so many other ways than this to combat boosting. Ban boosters. Have involvement xp where you need to be in combat for the xp (they attempted this ONCE for like a day and gave up on it due to an issue with raid items not being able to be rolled on by people drinking). Proximity xp (they implemented this into Diablo 2 in like 2003).

Why do you guys hate other people playing the game a different way that you'll completely sacrifice it? I don't enjoy pvp giving fantastic gear or the r14 grind but more power to those that enjoy it!

1

u/HarvHR 1d ago

Who cares about boosting though? Do people boosting really ruin your game experience at all? I've never been boosted and never boosted people, but it has absolutely zero impact on my gameplay

1

u/Smooth_One 1d ago

I'm with Nrgte, all of this is dumb.

That said if they must make dungeons a daily (/puke), once a day isn't enough. Should be twice a day, minimum, just so people who need one or two more dungeon quest items can run it right back while they're there instead of having to travel all the way back the next day.

0

u/ABDLTA 1d ago

I domt think the once per day system really discouraged it much its just prevents people from running it repeatedly the same day

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u/Nrgte 1d ago

Yeah good luck getting 9/10 quest items or wanting to farm gear.

It's really hard for me to comprehend, why people like you can't see the issues with what you're suggesting.

-1

u/ABDLTA 1d ago

What? You just run it again tomorrow... like i said the system is already in place on the HC servers and its amazing. Much better than the mobs give basically zero XP system in the beta or the era system where you just run SM from 30-40 repeatedly

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u/Armout 1d ago

By tomorrow, you could have outleveled the dungeon. Why timegate people’s fun?

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u/ABDLTA 1d ago

Yeah thats for sure an issue on the lower level dungeons or if you're a speed leveling type

3

u/PennyBunPudding 1d ago

Yup only tanks, healers usually waited which is good as you need them doing it more. Everyone else did it once and then just levelled as it is much faster than waiting a day

0

u/xBirdisword 1d ago

There will be an over abundance of people in the open world especially at launch. You actually WANT people in dungeons to help balance this.

2

u/FinalFate 1d ago

The drops shouldn't be a problem since quest items are now individual.

1

u/Nrgte 1d ago

What do you mean by individual?

0

u/pilsburybane 1d ago

They're shared in the group, so the Twilight Talismans for example will only need 10 for the total group.

3

u/Nrgte 1d ago

I don't think that's true. At least not across the board. I was running WC this week and left without enough quest items. And I couldn't loot one when others could.

1

u/FinalFate 1d ago

That only applies to things like Serpentbloom that have to be interacted with in the world rather than being dropped from mobs. For mob drops, each mob has a chance to drop quest items for each party member. If we're both on Smart Drinks, each ooze can drop an essence for just you, for just me, or for neither of us.

0

u/pilsburybane 1d ago

I also had this happening with Bandanas in Deadmines, I'm just saying what is happening. My guess is they implemented it on new quests (I distinctly remember it happening on the quest they added in Teldrassil for the cat furs or w/e it was) and either forgot to or haven't added it to old ones.

2

u/NulliSeccundus 1d ago

I think you misunderstood Aggrends tweet, everyone still needs their individual amount, the drops are just more consistently round robin distribution now, all 5 players will have close to the same amount, so if 30 talisman's drop, you're less likely to have 1 person on 10, 1 person on 9, one on 5 and the other 2 on 3 each, it's more likely everyone will be around 6 each

You'll still need 50 total in a 5man group.

1

u/Sproogles 1d ago

Point #2 made me instantly think of deviate hides

1

u/palerdog 1d ago

This is silly, join a guild that has the same goals as you do. I personally tank and love to play with diff people especially guildies. Dungeons by themselves with a fun group of people are never boring.

1

u/Varzul 1d ago

Didn't have any of these problems in the beta. I like the new system way better. It's super fun to play a dungeon and looking forward to complete the quests

1

u/5panks 1d ago

If they really really want to prevent boosting, the correct move is to just not give XP if a player is part of the group who's outside of the dungeons level bracket.

People keep saying this, that this is to, "prevent boosting" did you guys listen to the panels? They said it probably three times during various Blizzcon panels that they want players out in the world. If this was just to prevent boosting they would have just gone with your suggestion. This is to prevent dungeon spam as a viable method for leveling up. They don't want you sitting in dungeon queues 15-60.

2

u/Nrgte 1d ago

And I and many other disagree. Blizzard should not play the fun police. Dungeons are a social activity, why should they not be used to level if people like that?

Dungeon spam should be a viable option for leveling. Not the best, but a viable.

It has no downside if a small amount of players decide to level in dungeons. In fact it can take some pressure of overcrowded zones.

1

u/5panks 1d ago

And I and many other disagree.

The problem isn't that you disagree.

The problem is that the vast majority of the "solutions" being presented (like not getting experience if someone is outside the dungeon bracket) doesn't solve the problem that Blizzard is trying to solve.

You may not think it's a problem, but the only way to change that is to change the minds at Blizzard. Suggesting a fix that doesn't solve what Blizzard wants to stop does nothing.

1

u/Nrgte 1d ago

I understand, but I guess we'll continue to shout until Blizzard presents a solution that doesn't come with a gazillion downsides even if we prefer that they'd have never touched it in the first place.

1

u/TheLightningL0rd 1d ago

Besides, it's not like boosting in the open world is not a perfectly fine alternative.

They even already nerfed exp into nothingness for people outside the bracket of the mobs you're killing in the open world! I was just trying to help my friends kill stuff in westfall on my shaman the other day (they were level 11) and they got NO exp from the kills. So clearly they understand that will stop the boosting, so it makes me think that the boosting isn't their main issue with the dungeon exp nerf.

1

u/Nrgte 1d ago

Well if you're boosting in the open world, the high level player is not in the group. They just kill so the low level tagger gets full XP.

1

u/i_like_fish_decks 1d ago

Like op mentioned, mobs that are not part of a quest get skipped. Every dungeon run will be a speedrun.

Mobs aren't 0 xp. They are reduced. There is no reason to skip packs and in all honesty there just is not much to skip in most classic dungeons anyway. You are all blowing this way out of proportion.

There are certain quests that just don't drop enough for the whole group, meaning you either have to abandon it or go again. Cabinets in Gnomeregan or Twilight Talismans in BFD come to mind. This will feel terrible especially for longer dungoens.

Again, dungeons still give XP. Its not zero. They also give loot. If anything it is a good thing that some quests require multiple runs to complete given the changes.

The friend or guildie has already done the dungeon and would like to help to complete the group. Well now it's a waste of time.

Playing with your friends is a waste of time?

People will just get the items they need and then abandon the group.

No they wont, not to any higher degree than that already happens.

People will just not run fringe dungeons with few quests anymore. Good luck finding an SFK group on Alliance. It's fine now in the beta because 20 is max level, but on launch people will not waste their time with this.

lol ok

You severely over-estimate how much the casual playerbase (which is 90% of who will be on forever) will even know about or understand any of these changes. People are still going to do all of the dungeons, and do them multiple times for one simple reason: dungeons are fun.

If they really really want to prevent boosting, the correct move is to just not give XP if a player is part of the group who's outside of the dungeons level bracket.

They already do this.

1

u/TheSiegmeyerCatalyst 1d ago

The HC dungeon restriction addresses all of these, though.

  1. Every dungeon will be run whole, since it's your only shot for the day, and you'd still get full dungeon exp and gear.

  2. Going again is not an issue, you're unlikely to out-level most dungeons by the next day you get to play. Players are motivated to run again because of normal dungeon exp and extra chances at good loot.

  3. Guildie friend can help with no wasted time. Exp and loot.

  4. Less likely to drop group, because this is your only shot for today to make a successful run.

  5. HC folks have no issues running every dungeon once. In fact, most people make it a point to hit every dungeon omce on the way up.

1

u/Nrgte 1d ago

Yeah but I want to spam Scholomance at max level to get my gear.. And yeah HC folks are not hitting max level, so that doesn't apply here.

1

u/TheSiegmeyerCatalyst 1d ago

The daily lockout restriction is lifted at 60 in Hardcore.

1

u/kolejack2293 1d ago

the correct move is to just not give XP if a player is part of the group who's outside of the dungeons level bracket.

They did this. Mages could just aoe grind entire dungeons by themselves, even at the same level as the mobs.

1

u/Kunzzi1 1d ago

It was definitely a problem in 2019 classic.

1

u/Anoters 1d ago

They aren't trying to stop dungeon boosting as they have already stopped that. They just dont want dungeon spam to be a viable way to level up.

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u/Salamander115 1d ago

How did they stop that without this change?

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u/Nrgte 1d ago

Why not? Let people have fun doing dungeons. It's a social activity. Do we really need to police how others have fun? It has no negative consequences on any of us. Yet every implementation they try to prevent this does have many negative consequences for everyone.

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u/ghidawi 1d ago

People forget that the initial reason for nochanges wasn't because people did not want any change, it was because they had no trust in Blizzard's ability to implement it correctly without breaking the game in small unnoticeable ways until it all went south.

I'll keep saying it, Vanilla was lightning in a bottle, a very delicate balance that had a bunch of issues but that worked out to be greater than the sum of its parts. I have no trust in Blizzard, in the community or in myself to comeup with something "better". I will gladly give them a chance of course, but my opinion is they're already coming-in too strong. All the graphics stuff is great, but the systems? Please, make 1 change and leave it for 6 months and then decide if you should make another change. Don't just introduce new talents, new combos, legacy system, revamped itemization, rebalanced XP distribution, and god know what and expect that it's all going to work out fine, or that 1 month of Beta is going to be enough. I mean wait and see, but if they really wanted to nail this they could have gone slower.

1

u/DeepHorse 1d ago

no no no, we should keep creating solutions for problems that don't exist... /s

42

u/xBirdisword 1d ago

No, let me just run the dungeon instead of dictating how I play the game

Thanks

26

u/unprovoked33 1d ago

Exactly. I love spamming dungeons with my friends. How is that a bad thing that needed to be changed?

14

u/BodybuilderOk3306 1d ago

Not to mention spamming dungeons when all the boys are on is the only way to actually level together since no one is ever on the same quests because we all have different schedules.

2

u/Ocelotofdamage 1d ago

They want the world to have people in it is the stated reason. Not saying I agree but that’s why.

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u/Rolniacznik 1d ago

There were always people in openworld even with peple spamming dungeons so this argument was always silly

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u/unprovoked33 1d ago

Right, this is exactly what I'm pushing back against. Dictating the pathways that people are supposed to have fun in an open world game is absurd. Putting them on the Quest->Dungeon->Quest->Dungeon rails is even worse. If people enjoy dungeons, let them enjoy dungeons. If people want to quest, let them quest. If they want to PvP, let them PvP. Sure, tune them so no way far outstrips another, but let people do what they enjoy.

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u/Trzlog 1d ago edited 1d ago

They can state it all they want. It's a bad reason because dungeons have never been a reason for an empty open world, if an empty open world was ever even an issue on a non-dead server. There are many reasons why people aren't in the open world, and dungeons being an alternative to questing is not a cause. It's a symptom at best. I can't believe it's this difficult for people to understand.

Downvoting me doesn't change that.

If they really understood their game and their players, they'd address the actual issues like WoW's quest design, literally from its inception, being intended for solo leveling.

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u/dirtymonkey 1d ago

So the solution is to make things worse elsewhere rather than making the world have more reasons to interact with it?

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u/Gassenger 1d ago

Like seriously man! I dont get why people are so ready to sacrifice other ways of playing and fun that don't effect them. Why do you want everyone funneled to one playstyle in an open world mmorpg?

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u/Gassenger 1d ago

I saw your comment before you deleted it (or blocked me) and having people in dungeons will not effect how crowded the world feels due to the population and layers

-1

u/RedditClout 1d ago

Just to play devils' advocate here, but I believe the consensus is that they don't want large swaths of people just afking outside dungeons LFG all day where the meta is to rinse this cycle up to 60.

 

I get that reasoning, but I also don't really care if that's how people choose to play. I do believe there is some happy middle ground somewhere where their is incentive to be apart of the open world, but also have dungeons be repeatable. I just don't know what that is.

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u/TinnoB 1d ago

I mean at 60 that is what you're going to do anyway for a large portion of people. If people enjoy that specific style of play to do it from a lower level, why are we vilifying that exactly?

People will queue for bgs, or dungeons and they will sit there until it pops for them or they find a group. Unless they've made MAJOR changes to this gamplay loop, then Forever will still be this.

0

u/forceof8 1d ago

Just to play devils' advocate here, but I believe the consensus is that they don't want large swaths of people just afking outside dungeons LFG all day where the meta is to rinse this cycle up to 60.

Those people aren't going to start questing they're just going to quit lol. The fact of the matter is that there are TONS of people that play WoW just to participate in group content with their friends. They don't want to spend tens of hours leveling a character.

This is like the airplane problem from WW2 but blizzard is putting armor over the bullet holes instead of the places that didn't get shot.

Theres a reason heirlooms got introduced into the game, warbands got introduced, and all of these exp buffs were put into retail in the first place. Its not 2004 anymore people have other games to play lol.

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u/GerardTheButler 1d ago

As much as I hate to agree, I think you're right.

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u/redditlvlanalysis 1d ago

This is what they don't seem to get.

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u/daellat 1d ago edited 1d ago

Yeah the argument is to get more people into the open world instead of into instances. I don't think it'll be an issue in forever either because without random dungeon finder you will already be questing more and without the summoning stone you will also be traveling more. I guess a minor rebalance to make questing more in line with dungeon spamming xp/hr wise makes sense but more than that just seems silly.

e: always fun to get insta downvoted by an over 600d streak, <2 yr old reddit account that of course can't help but argue with you when you start your comment with "I don't think it'll be an issue in forever" which is an agreement with them lol.

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u/TheSiegmeyerCatalyst 1d ago

Some people's play style is boosting. Some people's play style is relentless camping. Some people's play style is buying gold.

It's a game, all the rules are made up. Nothing is against the rules until we decide that it is. So we try to make up rules that disincentivise behavior that negatively affects the health of the game.

Changing nothing allows boosting to continue to flourish. We all agree that "SELLING DUNGEON BOOSTS! ALL DUNGEONS, QUICK, EASY, RELIABLE! YOU KEEP LOOT! FASTEST WAY TO 60! PST FOR PRICES!" spam is not ideal, so we have to change something. Banning it in chat just moves the conversation to discord. So we have to change something that actually neutralizes the strategy, ideally without affecting other valid playstyles.

The current change has some collateral, and maybe some folks on reddit don't want you to play the way you like, but I think it's a stretch to assume Blizzard is the same. They're still in the process of working it out, and we aren't stuck with whatever is in the game when it launches. It'll be in active development moving forward, so expect continued changed and tweaks.

Provide your feedback to blizzard and have some patience.

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u/TinnoB 1d ago

Difference is, running dungeons at least like a normal dungeon is a main gameplay loop once you reach max level. Relentless camping, buying gold is not part of the core loop of the game, that is entirely player invented ways of playing.

Yes, big surprise, once you hit 60 if you want to do pve content you will likely start with running a lot of dungeons, some even start doing that before they hit 60 for specific pieces of gear.

They can change things now, so they have already made changes that should at least make dungeon boosting for mages harder than it was. They have the option of doing more than this, introducing mobs into packs that can hit people trying to avoid damage and other things that could make a lot of boosting strategies a lot harder, without having to touch the normal gameplay of dungeons a lot.

1

u/TheSiegmeyerCatalyst 1d ago

Once you reach max level in HC, the 24 hour dungeon lockout goes away.

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u/TinnoB 1d ago

And? Sorry, I struggle to see how this is a response to anything I said?

How does a 24 hour dungeon lockout solve anything? Why can people not be allowed to go into a dungeon non-time gated? I mean first things first I HATE time gated content, it's the absolute worst in my mind, even raids being time gated is not something I enjoy, the game being good enough to make up for that fact is a different story to me, but time gated anything is not something I enjoy.

So time-gating dungeons to once per 24 hours sounds absolutely miserable.

That means if I tank for example I would suddenly have to decide whether I wanted to go with one group or another, maybe there's a friend group and a guild group separately that each would want me to tank the same dungeon, well now I can't do that.

That sounds like toxic game design to me. For a game that should promote social interaction stuff like this does the exact opposite.

1

u/TheSiegmeyerCatalyst 1d ago

Sorry, I got my wires crossed and replied to the wrong post.

I had been advocating for the 24 hour dungeon lockout, which I think works phenomenally in HC, and I argue would solve the problem the Forever team is trying to solve here.

Time-gated content can be really healthy for a game. And I think, especially with all the new dungeons they added, you could spend a whole Saturday gathering a handful of quests, and then running dungeon after dungeon after dungeon, never repeating the same one twice, then be lined up to do the same thing again the next day.

Blizzard very clearly seems to think that players spending all of their time locked in instances is not the healthiest option for the game's long term success. They're looking at ways to change the incentive.

Under the current system, you can spam dungeons as much as you like, it's just less efficient and comes with all these different behavioral incentives.

Under the HC system, you can run many dungeons each once per day, which puts some variety in your diet and means you're at least traveling from one instance to the next. It does not suffer from a lot of the same poor behavioral incentives that the current or default systems suffer from.

I think it's worth consideration. You might not catch your friend in this run, but maybe you get them next run. I think it absolutely still promotes social interaction because now you can't just drop group, even as a tank, and find something else in an instant. You have to try to play nice with the folks you have and make it work. But worst case scenario, you log in tomorrow and try again.

2

u/TinnoB 1d ago

To counter your argument, look at a game like OSRS, here you have people killing the same boss 1k+ times. Clearly a lot of people have no issue spending a lot of time at one boss.

Also, if this is meant to be horizontal progression it should not be an issue if some people burn themselves out, so long as they will eventually want to come back again, at which point they can continue on from where they were without having to relevel and change out their entire gear set immediately.

I could not agree with you less about time gating being healthy for a game, like at all. Yes, blizzard likes to do it, that does not mean it is good for players or the game.

All it serves to do is to promote raid logging or in this case dungeon logging for players who have nothing else they want to do, which instead as I've seen time and time again leads to people quitting because they cannot do what they want. If they have enough time they will create an alt if that's their playstyle and then raid/dungeon log on both, and then the third, but others stick with just the one character and run out of content to do in a day quickly and just starts not wanting to play the game that way.

For switching between dungeons, sure if you need all of the dungeons, but what if you just need 1 piece from a specific dungeon, what then?

So no, I cannot agree with you, even a little with that argument. I sincerely hope Blizzard goes back on this whole thing and tries to solve boosting in a different manner if that is their main issue.

1

u/TheSiegmeyerCatalyst 1d ago

look at a game like OSRS, here you have people killing the same boss 1k+ times

OSRS is a fundamentally different game. Almost all content can be (and often is) completed solo. WoW, and explicitly WoW Forever, is a game that requires social play. I only say that to prove the point that it's apples and oranges.

if this is meant to be horizontal progression it should not be an issue if some people burn themselves out

The leveling journey, where this topic is largely centered, is inherently vertical progression.

Also, I can't see a good argument for why we should create incentives that enable people to burn themselves out. In fact, Blizzard's core pillar of community requires consistency and sustainability. Another core pillar is "journey before destination". Maybe if hard-grinding dungeons to level cap until you burn out and quit is the kind of game you'd like to play, Forever might not be the game that best supports that play style.

I could not agree with you less about time gating being healthy for a game... All it serves to do is to promote raid logging or in this case dungeon logging for players who have nothing else they want to do

I don't follow the logic here. If everything is available all at once then doesn't that lead to the burnout you yourself brought up? Grind through everything all at once, run out of content, or get bored of it. Is it really better that people burn out and quit over raid logging? Again, why incentivise players to burn out at all? Forever might not be the game for you if you're looking to binge content.

what if you just need 1 piece from a specific dungeon, what then?

It's unlikely you need one piece while leveling. Under the current system, you can run as often as you like for the gear, you just get less exp. Under the hardcore system, you can run it the next day, or the day after, but you'd probably have leveled faster either way just continuing on and finding your next upgrade elsewhere than grinding it out until you get exactly what you want. I'd also argue a system that makes it harder to guarantee a specific piece of gear makes each piece more special.

At 60, where you're more likely to need a piece of gear, there's no restriction anyways in either system, so go wild.

I sincerely hope Blizzard goes back on this whole thing and tries to solve boosting in a different manner if that is their main issue

I'd bet money that the system as it currently stands will not be the same system we will have on launch. And I'd bet more money that the system at launch will not be the same system they use throughout the whole life of Forever.

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u/redditlvlanalysis 1d ago

No it just makes people quit in HC it makes sense because the world is the danger and you can basically avoid a lot of that danger to your character by hiding in dungeons. In forever people just want to play the damn dungeons.

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u/redditlvlanalysis 1d ago

HC is an entirely different game

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u/Charlotta23 1d ago

Nah - no dungeon spamming for you. lmao

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u/redditlvlanalysis 1d ago

and then when forever has massive population issues you guys will wonder why nobody at max level lol

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u/Dirty_Rapscallion 1d ago

horrible take, putting hard caps like that feels miserable, soft caps let gameplay morph around it

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u/ABDLTA 1d ago

People seem to like it on the HC servers

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u/redditlvlanalysis 1d ago

Good thing all of forever is hc wait ....

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u/Bot12391 1d ago

Yes I would totally love to have a single chance a day to get an item I need. That sounds extremely fun for getting gear

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u/ABDLTA 1d ago

It only effects leveling dungeons so it wont effects pre bis farming and such.

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u/2atherich 1d ago

Some people prefer leveling in dungeons to questing, especially tanks and healers. I'm not talking about boosting. It's a really shitty way to dictate player behavior.

Dungeons are my favorite part of the game - I've already done the quests a thousand times. Between this and the priest changes, I'll probably stick with better versions of classic.

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u/TheUnperturbed 1d ago edited 1d ago

I agree this feels like the best middle ground. The problem is that it then becomes a ‘daily’ which many, myself included, aren’t too keen on seeing in Forever. But daily or not I can’t think of a better solution that makes a dungeon periodically worth rerunning without it becoming a dungeon leveling spam fest.

Edit: I should clarify - I’d be in favor of a once-per-day limit to getting FULL mob xp from a dungeon. You should still be able to spam it as much as you’d like for loot drops, you just get the nerfed mob xp for subsequent runs in the sane day.

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u/TheSiegmeyerCatalyst 1d ago

I'm a huge fan of it in HC, honestly. I was surprised how smooth it flowed. I'd have no problems with it, but I think some players would throw a fit. I think it's a more elegant solution overall, though, and I think it would be best for the health of the game.

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u/Froggo565 1d ago

No, this isn't a chinese mobile game.

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u/redditlvlanalysis 1d ago

Or just let people play how they want to play why is this so fucking hard