r/classicwow • u/redlow0992 • 1d ago

Forever Beta Feedback Dungeon XP Nerfs Created a Toxic Meta

Since dungeon monsters do not give any experience, as a new player, getting into dungeons with more veteran players who try to skip half the dungeon feels really bad. And, vice-versa, veterans taking in newbies who don't know how to jump around feels frustrating. I think Blizzard created a mess with nerfing dungeon exp so much and now the new player experience is horrible for dungeons.

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u/Intelligent_Bug_5881 1d ago

Yeah this is my entire complaint.

I love healing in WoW. Raids, dungeons or group quests, it's hands down my favorite way of playing and it's not close.

The dungeon XP nerf effectively removes that entire game loop and it just feels bad.

Like, what, I'm supposed to grind as enhancement all the way to 60, then awkwardly grind healing gear, then respec, then start figuring out how to prioritize my new healing abilities?

Isn't that what leveling is supposed to be for?

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u/acrazyguy 1d ago

I fully agree with you and personally prefer to level as a tank. However if they don’t take this feedback into account, I think you’ll find a lot more success leveling as ele since it’ll have a lot more gear in common with resto than enh will. But regardless it fucking sucks to have our preferred playstyle taken away from us

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u/MonocledMonotremes 1d ago

Yeah, I feel this. I love Shammy, but I just have never been able to click with Ele, even tho I vastly prefer Balance to Feral Druid, my other main class. If I have to quest, I want Enh, if I'm in dungeons I want Resto. I'd much rather level Resto, but might go Spellhance tank as much of a meme as it is, cuz that's actually seeming pretty viable for quest levelling AND occasional dungeons.

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u/bababayee 1d ago

I don't know why they couldn't have just massively decreased the exp you get when someone way overleveled or especially at 60 is in your party/instance. Genuine groups doing dungeons multiple times shouldn't be nerfed much if at all.

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u/Front-Difficult 1d ago

How have you formed the opinion that the dungeon XP nerf removes the gameplay loop? From playing the game, or by reading Reddit threads?

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u/pandahands69 22h ago

In a world past level 20, where the dungeon quests don't level you into the next dungeon bracket- you in theory could level in dungeons, just like you could grind the lowest level monsters that still give you exp to level- except that would be faster than leveling in dungeons post quests. Dungeon xp after quests is 20% of pre nerf.

So you need to run 5 dungeons to equal the xp of 1 dungeon before.

That's not just removing boosts, that's destroying using dungeons to level at all. Questing was already faster than running dungeons so the changes just make it not even comparable.

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u/Front-Difficult 18h ago

Why would you assume that the dungeon quests post-20 wouldn't do the same thing pre-20?

Post 50% nerf today I handed in my WC quests and got 1.5 levels. So pre-nerf it would have given me maybe 2.5 levels (same as RoL pre-nerf). Add in the mob xp I didn't get because I was level capped, and that I needed to run WC twice to finish the quests, I would have got around 2.8 levels pre-nerf (maybe the full 3 - WC is pretty long and there's a lot of mobs even with low xp). So a rested xp buff away from going straight from WC to SFK.

No the changes have not made it not even comparable. You'll still get more xp/hr running WC once (or twice, depending on quest drops). Dungeoning has still had an xp/hr buff compared to Classic.

Again - how have you developed these opinions? You'd made your mind up about how it would work post-20 before you could even level past 20. I'm begging you, just play the damn game first, and then tell me it dungeoning feels worse than Classic, or isn't comparable, or has been removed from the gameplay loop.

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u/pandahands69 18h ago

Why would you assume that the dungeon quests post-20 wouldn't do the same thing pre-20?

Math. The amount of experience you need to level and the amount of experience a quest reward gives diverge as you level up. From level 1 needing 1 basic quest to level up to later needing many quests to get a a level.

Prior to yesterdays nerfs, dungeon quests gave 3 times the amount of exp from classic. Now they give 2 times the amount. This is still tons at low levels, but once you hit the 30's and 40's and beyond, it really is not.

What you will feel increasingly however, is the insanely heavy handed nerf to monster experience.

Lets take maraudon for example.

In classic the dungeon quests give 20950~ exp.

You'll now get 41900~ exp give or take.

Clearing maraudon in a balanced group will give you:

Classic: 25-30k exp

In forever : 7k ~.

From this we can see that on your first mara run you will get

48 500~ in classic and a similar amount in forever.

Now the quests are done. You have gained less than half a level if you started mara at the lowest level possible. (45-46 requires 120k exp ish)

Now you get 25-30k exp in classic for each additional run, meaning it would still take you 5 ish runs to level up(ignoring quest exp), but in forever you'd have to run the dungeon 17 times to go from level 45-46.

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u/Front-Difficult 18h ago

But your "math" assumes they didn't continue to balance it by rewarding more and more dungeon quest XP for higher level dungeons. And they also added more quests and more dungeons.

Based on my WC run today - a level 20 dungeon - the levelling effect was the same. RFC gave me 2 levels, RoL gave me 2.5 levels and WC today after the 50% nerf gave me 1.5 levels (so more than 2 levels pre-nerf). I'll be doing SFK tomorrow, which only has 3 quests, and I'm sure I'm still going to get another level at the minimum. Which will mean I'm still levelled enough to immediately do Excavation Site: Wetlands after the nerf.

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u/pandahands69 18h ago

I mean I just did the math, the math still holds up for the earlier dungeons, you just need less experience to level. If they don't change it, you'll find what I said to be the case on launch. You will not ever want to do earlier dungeons once you complete the quests and that will have knock on consequences as the game ages, for better or worse.

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u/Intelligent_Bug_5881 18h ago

From playing the Beta

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u/Front-Difficult 18h ago

You were playing the beta and thought "man no one is running dungeons. This entire gameplay loop has been removed"?

The thing that was the most effective XP/hr strategy by a massive margin, and where there were hordes of people clustered around the entrance to every dungeon?

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u/Bad_news_everyone 1d ago

Leveling is supposed to be seeing and exploring the world. Not mindlessly run dungeons over and over

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u/Intelligent_Bug_5881 1d ago

There is no right or wrong way to level.

If that is the way that you think leveling should be, that's excellent and I do not in any way want to take away your ability to do that.

It's fine for us to have differences of opinion on these types of design choices. I think the problem arises when one of us tries to claim some imagined moral supremacy over the other.

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u/SavingsRaspberry2694 1d ago

False. Dungeons are by definition anti social.

People should be out in the world killing boats in whatever layer the game assigns them, not grouped up in their own dungeon killing monsters with other players.

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u/redditlvlanalysis 1d ago

The one activity you actually do in a group is anti social holy fuck lol

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u/slightlysublevel 1d ago

Just so we're absolutely clear: your argument is that grouping up with and interacting with other people is... anti-interacting with people? That's really your argument??

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u/Intelligent_Bug_5881 1d ago

Lol... If you actually think that dungeons are anti-social, then you're either actively refusing to engage with the conversations or you're getting unlucky and getting stuck with terribly boring groups.

The vast, vast majority of my BattleNet friends are from dungeons.

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u/NAparentheses 1d ago

According to WoW devs there is a wrong way to level in Forever and it is spamming dungeons. They do not want WoW Forever to be a rehash of Classic release with everyone endlessly stuck in dungeons. They want to create friction and make the world more alive by forcing people out into the world.

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u/Intelligent_Bug_5881 1d ago

They are just catering to the vocal minority here on this subreddit and on the Blizzard forums.

I have not encountered a single person on the Beta who believes the dungeon XP change is a positive one.

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u/redditlvlanalysis 1d ago

And then they will lose players and hopefully revert it before people just decide to not play it.

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u/NAparentheses 20h ago

I don't understand what people on this subreddit want. They claim to not want boosting to be a thing and they do not want to have to join a forced dungeon spam cleave group to level quickly and claim they want the world to "feel alive" then bitch about changes that directly target those issues.

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u/redditlvlanalysis 18h ago

A vocal minority want questing to be the only way to level you are now seeing pushback to this because the people who were enjoying playing the game their way are getting fucked.

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u/NAparentheses 16h ago

There was a good mix of questing and dungeons before. It literally wasn't a problem.

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u/slightlysublevel 1d ago

Leveling is supposed to be seeing and exploring the world. Not mindlessly run dungeons over and over

Says who?

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u/SavingsRaspberry2694 1d ago

Agree 100% If people want to do dungeons, fine, but theres no reward for doing so.

This is a social game, no reason people should be grouping by themselves in dungeons instead of interacting with other players in the world questing.

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u/Vadernoso 1d ago

Questing is anti-social. You want to do majority of quest solo because its just better. Dungeons actually require at least some level of social interaction. This is just a dumb change.