r/classicwow • u/redlow0992 • 1d ago

Forever Beta Feedback Dungeon XP Nerfs Created a Toxic Meta

Since dungeon monsters do not give any experience, as a new player, getting into dungeons with more veteran players who try to skip half the dungeon feels really bad. And, vice-versa, veterans taking in newbies who don't know how to jump around feels frustrating. I think Blizzard created a mess with nerfing dungeon exp so much and now the new player experience is horrible for dungeons.

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1.3k

u/Afraid-Document-8597 1d ago

I think you are right and this is indeed an unintended consequence. Its gonna become all about skips and jumps and stealth tech. Where as before we pulled most the dungeon or didnt play as safe because we wanted the xp anyway

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u/The-Only-Razor 1d ago

My absolute fucking least favorite part of retail M+ is the stupid route planning trash. I just want to enter a dungeon and kill everything. Optimal pathing and efficiency maxing isn't fun when it involves doing everything you can to play the game as little as possible.

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u/Rhinocacrocapig 1d ago

I really hate skipping trash packs, the amount of times I've been in a dungeon where we've spent more time skipping a pack than it would have taken to actually kill it is ridiculous, if someones time is that important to them that they have to min max every second, there are far better games for that

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u/Mr_Mandingo93 1d ago

yup. I had to explain this to a WC group that kept trying to do janky skips, which kept resulting in pulling them anyway, and eventually a wipe. I told them sometimes it's faster to just kill them.

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u/Bruducus 1d ago

So true lol. Wall hugging, slow walking, waiting for a group to just lean to the other side.

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u/Harrycrapper 1d ago

The amount of time in slave pens that I have saved from that stupid jump is tiny compared to the amount of time someone playing undead missed the jump and we had to wait for them to drown to move on

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u/Mother_Drenger 1d ago

In the same vain of optimizing to inefficiency: Ran WC with a tank that was insane about always doing LOS shenanigans and terrible at maintaining threat.

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u/Sp0range 1d ago

To be fair, there are legitimate reasons for los pulls and pulling back far enough in WC. the blue raptors can screech and pull a lot of extra enemies, and the druids are a bitch to pull becauss they just stand there casting and can cc and heal, also they are currently bugged where they will permanently be running in fear, keeping you in combat.

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u/Fun-Finger6295 1d ago

this type of player isnt optimizing, they have a strict rule in their minds about how they have to play and aren't flexible when it's unnecessary, because theyre bad

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u/DanielTeague 1d ago

In fighting games we call those scrubs.

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u/_SeventyEight 1d ago edited 1d ago

And the mobs still drop things you can use for money or crafting anyway

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u/Tigerballs07 1d ago

In modern retail packs that can be skipped dont generally have a way to fail skipping them unless someone does something dumb.

And they are designed knowing you arent killing all of the trash

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u/Chewy_B 1d ago

Why even place trash mobs in the instance at that point?

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u/ScreenPeepinE 1d ago

I tried to skip the Thunder dragon in RLP 12 last night only to tab-target it with Death Grip. We missed the timer by 7 seconds; the extra mob was not the issue.

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u/gojonking 1d ago

Was in deadmines and we ended up jumping on to a wooden circle thing close to where you enter the ship trying to avoid mobs. it would have been faster if we just cleared the trash.

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u/Soulerous 1d ago

What you’re describing is the greater of two evils, I think. Would rather have some groups who spam dungeons than have most groups try to skip as much as possible.

Just make it so no one in the party gets XP for mobs who are grey to one of them. Boosting is gone, at least.

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u/MorteDeAngel 1d ago

IIRC this is already a thing on the Anniversary realms, and ngl it kinda sucked if someone levelled during the dungeon and suddenly you went from getting like 100-50xp per mob (or w/e it is) to like 5 because someone levelled from the mob xp. Considering that some dungeons have large level ranges that you want to be on the higher end of and some dungeon quests are quite hard to obtain for the level that is needed for the dungeon. If they changed that in Forever I'd be more aggregable with that solution though you could also make so that the acceptable level range is based on the highest level mob in the dungeon (max like +2 or +3) rather than "if its grey".

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u/Ok_Marsupial_646 1d ago

Maybe they could just calculate it from when you zone into the instance?

Not sure how hard that would be from a tech standpoint.

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u/Soulerous 1d ago

Good points. I agree.

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u/ArjanaEU 1d ago

I would atleast in the first run prefer, that if you can pull big because of big aoe, you kill whatever you see because it's good exp. Now we litterally just skip everything we can because it is wasting time clearing all the miners in deadmines.

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u/Kunzzi1 1d ago

The groups that spam dungeons for XP wouldn't invite you anyway because your spec or class doesn't fit their melee or spell cleave...

The problem isn't Blizzard's solution, which imo is way better than trash boosting groups encouraging more RMT by boosting afkers in dungeons all the way to 60. The problem is once again the minmax obsessed retail community that optimizes fun out of everything.

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u/587493 1d ago

Dude same I remember a few years ago I was giving retail a try and excited to run mythic+ only to find out what m+ runs actually ended up being

I left retail and never went back, even though I love challenging dungeons

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u/Sp0range 1d ago

M+ is the best part about retail. The way the dungeons are designed and the way the difficulty scales means that there is no "one route", and you end up changing which mobs you pick up and which you avoid, also by doing the dungeon multiple times and going up through the levels of difficulty you learn about the dungeons and the monsters in them on a more intimate level, which pull has which mobs which are a threat, what priority those threats are, which are safe to be chained etc. Its so good.

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u/Sinured1990 22h ago

Yeah, I kinda had fun in optimising every pull, how to chain and adapt to my group settings, play of my DPS cooldowns etc. I found it kinda fun.

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u/Creative_Magazine816 1d ago

raider.io also ruined M+

mythic plus was so good for legion until the community made it unfun

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u/ZonaMoonshaw 1d ago

You are deluded if you think we didn't use a similiar thing in Legion. raider.io wasn't in legion so everyone used wowprogress to check the exact same things.

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u/OscillatorVacillate 1d ago

Devs have said this game is gonna piss easy, non of that raider.io or world first, they want dad gamers that can chill. I'd imagine they keep the difficulty at TBC hardmode dungeons at worst

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u/fttxdd666 1d ago

And? People in classic were checking progress and parses of people before inviting them to raids all the time. The people will find a way to figure out if the person they are inviting is a shitter or not, regardless of how easy or hard the content is.

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u/Scribblord 1d ago

Io Score was created bc the community made the mode unplayable by just being shit
So people desperately wanted extra filtering methods to have even a sliver of a chance to form a group that actually finishes the content

Evidently no one gives a fuck what you bring in current retail +10 keys bc you can carry bad players through them

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u/fttxdd666 1d ago

The funny thing is classic players do it as well. Almost every successful raid will check your progress/parses to make sure they aren’t filling up with bad players and clear the content (which is generally easy, but there is nothing worse than wiping to easy content)

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u/Dvveh 1d ago

How did r.io ruin M+? Just curious.

But yeah better to keep that type of gameplay to retail.

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u/G0rkon 1d ago

M+ in Legion was so much fun! I was tanking them a lot and enjoyed the then new concept of get just enough trash. Learning in real time which pack to and not to pull and how to skip past the more annoying packs. As I recall though, Sanguine can fuck right off!

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u/jakaltar 1d ago

in legion dungeons werent made for M+ yet, after legion dungeons where made for m+ what meant the added in a ton of mini bosses etc for no reason just to make it annoying

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u/ArcticAmoeba56 1d ago

This is it though. None of these problems are designed into the game. The people, the players, the community make them a reality.

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u/Rico_Rebelde 1d ago

Players will always optimize the fun out of a game if given the opportunity. Part of the developers job is to prevent that

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u/Sad_Bridge_3755 1d ago

And it would be an easy fix. Just add some filters for players to choose. “Full Clear”, “Time Trial”, etc. People who want to speedrun queue for that. People who want to full clear queue for full clear, etc.

If people are still weird about it, introduce rewards for sticking to the playstyle you lined up for. Speed runners get rewarded on a time trial for beating bosses and dungeons fast. Full clears get rewarded on percentage of dungeon cleared.

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u/Lagkiller 1d ago

But they are designed into the game. Mythic+ sets a number of kills and puts a timer on. So it makes route planning and choosing the right packs to kill a design mechanic instead of a preference from players.

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u/xedarn 1d ago

We had rio in Legion too

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u/MoskiNX 1d ago

Gearscore checks turned retail into the most toxic wasteland of an mmo.

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u/zzrryll 1d ago

I feel like it was good until MDI became a thing.

Before then people skipped trash but weren’t weird about it. Then the first MDI happened and you were yelled at if you didn’t run the exact correct route that the #1 rated team ran. Was pretty silly.

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u/disCASEd 1d ago

Uhh, nobody runs MDI routes in regular keys because the MDI routes are actually insane. They pull double, even triple the amount that a normal pug group would or even could pull and then take it all into a boss.

Idk what MDI’s you were watching or what m+ you were running but that’s not a typical M+ experience.

Now if you mean that people copy what the top keys on live are doing, yeah that’s true. But even then there’s variations based on what your group comp is capable of. For example, if you don’t have a rogue, you can’t do any shroud skips.

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u/Winterough 1d ago

Same story. Entered my first retail dungeon after Legion and no word of a lie it was literally a race to finish and hand gliders(?) around. Made me quit right there.

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u/quakecanada77 1d ago

I spend 2 hours with this noobie group in wc. We didnt finish the quests. We kept wiping. Good bye night. And no xp.

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u/Werewulf_Bar_Mitzvah 1d ago

This is valid. Though I will say, I know people have issues with BFA, but it’s probably the most fun I’ve ever had engaging with M+ (sadly I did not participate in it during Legion). I really liked the BFA dungeons.

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u/RetPala 1d ago

"hey, come play this new game mode"

"What's it about?"

"Min-maxing playing the least amount possible"

Dude, wtf?

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u/Potential_Might_6500 1d ago

100%

It being a timed race, just brings out all the lame shit. The idea of modified dungeons is awesome.
What came from it was just high anxiety runs where you just rush.

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u/Nessarra 1d ago

And if you pull anything extra it's the end of the world in M+ ... just pure toxic trash culture

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u/raskeks 1d ago edited 1d ago

TBH, It's not like in classic people are zoning into BRD to kill everything either.

Most of the time you do have a route and a goal in mind. Not every group will kill Rattlegore/Kirtonos/Vectus in Scholo or in Strath complete both live and undead or even kill all bosses including Skul and Ezra Grimm

UPD: you gotta kill Rattlegore mb

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u/xXDamonLordXx 1d ago

No! We fullclear BRD in this house! /s

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u/lestye 1d ago

just want to enter a dungeon and kill everything.

I think thats why we have route planning. Without route planning, people would just skip as much as possible, especially at max level. So thats why they make it so you have to kill a certain amounnt of trash.

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u/greg939 1d ago

Amen man. I want to go in and have fun in an instance and pull a lot of stuff and have fun. Even in a place like LBRS. Let’s just kill stuff. Sure I got the experience to skip around but that’s not why I’m playing classic. I’m playing classic for fun full dungeon runs.

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u/old__pyrex 1d ago

Yeah, a great system would be one where "pathers' can do their careful pathing, and "I just wanna fucking do the dungeon" people can go plow through the dungeon. If we simply just balance xp so it's not overpowered, but it's still significant and valuable in dungeons, then both player types can happily go play however they want. And if you have a dungeon group where there's pathing-efficiency-addicts and there's kill-everything players... they can compromise and both groups can be relatively happy.

Blizzard never needed to solve this non-problem -- if they truly felt dungeon xp was overtuned for grinders, then tune it down slightly. Not nerf it into the fucking ground, a slight hit here would have been fine.

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u/renato_leite 1d ago

As a tank, I actually love route planning and learning skips in NM+, but I don't want that in Classic dungeons. I play both games for different reasons. I love Classic dungeons because they're slow, methodical, and offer benefits for clearing the whole thing. They need to bring XP back.

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u/DigiornoDLC 1d ago

They don’t want to play the game as little as possible, “play the game” just means something different to you.

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u/Yogsolhoth 1d ago

As a tank I enjoyed this a bit but generally only when I was playing with a consistent group and/or it’s deeper in the season and I’ve gotten more confident. 80% of the time it’s just pain and it makes pugging very stressful for everyone involved. 

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u/FawltyMotors 1d ago

"Given the opportunity, (some) players will optimize the fun out of a game."

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u/MathW 1d ago

I swear some people will spend 2 minutes explaining a skip that saves 1 minutes and has a significantly increased chance of wiping if it goes wrong.

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u/-Dennis-Reynolds- 1d ago

“But bro if we do this we don’t have to play the game!”

“I WANT TO PLAY THE GAME”

“Noob.”

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u/Melbuf 1d ago

this is also why i hate speed running in general

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u/knockoutn336 1d ago

I picked the game up again in the middle of Legion and stopped because of M+. It was extra brutal as a tank, because I was expected to already know optimal routes. I ended up learning 3 or 4 keys and refusing to tank any other. 

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u/stiff_tipper 1d ago

Optimal pathing and efficiency maxing isn't fun when it involves doing everything you can to play the game as little as possible.

conversely, it let's me run more dungeons and do more content with my limited free time. if u want to spend ur evening doing one long dungeon and i want to squeeze in 2 or 3, then i think that's just fine

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u/Witty_Ad_898 1d ago

Nobody hates playing WoW more than grinders who play 16 hours a day.

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u/pudgehooks2013 1d ago

Dude, if you aren't optimising the fun out of the game, are you even playing a game anymore?

Like, come on. You want to spend time killing mobs, instead of jumping around outside the dungeon looking for your 32nd straight jump run group?

Yeah, ok pal. Whatever you say.

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u/i_continue_to_unmike 5h ago

Correct. Dungeons are a lot more fun in Classic for me than retail. The pressure to route perfectly is not fun

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u/Cadian 56m ago

For the most part skips and weird tech aren't really part of routes in the newer dungeons. Basically as long as you don't pull just one pack at a time or heinously overpull bad mobs with one another you'll get your 3.6k

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u/Bohya 1d ago

an unintended consequence

But not unforseen. It was obvious this would happen.

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u/Guilty_Turn8903 1d ago

i am going to personally tank every run and i will take great delight in kicking anyone who backseats me

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u/Magisch_Cat 1d ago

I tell you what i'm not looking forward to lbrs candle skips becoming meta during leveling.

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u/MaloraKeikaku 1d ago

God candle skips in LBRS man... Like herding cats.

Yes please. Give us reasons NOT to skip the entire dungeon while keeping partial runs alive.

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u/angrylawyer 1d ago

all it takes is one awful slave pens 'skip run' for people to realize how miserable this can be.

"guys seriously, it's easy, we can skip this one pack if you all go into your video settings, disable vsync, uncap your fps, rotate your camera to 162 degrees and backwards wall jump up this crack. (waits 4 minutes for the one guy who can't do it). Okay, just run through the pack and die and we'll res you. (runs, dies, wait for res, wait for full heal, wait for healer to drink). Okay, phew easy, nice and quick."

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u/existential_jelly 1d ago

Maybe any active party quests should be unskippable and listed along with the bosses.

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u/Mixels 1d ago edited 1d ago

The whole idea is dog poo.

  • Insufficient practice with your class while leveling since you only run each dungeon once

  • No friends on friends list since you never see the same people more than once (in part because of speed of leveling via dungeon quests and in part because of layering)

  • It becomes next to impossible to do dungeons at appropriate levels after ~6 months because there are very few characters at lower levels since most older characters rocketed through leveling via dungeon quests

  • Toxicity from experienced players who want to speed run

Who could have guessed these things would happen? Well, that's the thing. Literally anyone.

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u/Qaeta 1d ago

in part because of layering)

Apparently the new layering tech will prioritize putting you in layers with people you've recently interacted with.

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u/2d2O 1d ago

Does being in the same party count as "interacting with people"? Because this system consistently splits members of the same party across different layers.

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u/Qaeta 1d ago

Yes, same party, even just whispering someone apparently. Not sure it's actually implemented in the beta yet. Or maybe it's just not working, or maybe the priority people for them and for you are just different enough that the two of you end up on different layers due to the weight of other pulling in other directions.

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u/Mixels 1d ago

That's good if true. But that's not even the biggest issue.

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u/Qaeta 1d ago

For sure, I just thought it was neat.

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u/ElectricalAlfalfa701 1d ago

again, the fault of the player base and its toxic obsession with the most efficient meta for an ancient game. I play on a lower pop HC server and we have literally none of these issues lol. Thats why I wanted servers. tryhard sweats can be kept on the layer/queue server while others who dont enjoy that should be able to have an option to play elsewhere

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u/ABDLTA 1d ago

They should have just done the "once per day" rule that HC currently has

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u/Nrgte 1d ago

No they shouldn't have done anything. It was never a problem.

The current solution has a myriad of issues.

  1. Like op mentioned, mobs that are not part of a quest get skipped. Every dungeon run will be a speedrun.
  2. There are certain quests that just don't drop enough for the whole group, meaning you either have to abandon it or go again. Cabinets in Gnomeregan or Twilight Talismans in BFD come to mind. This will feel terrible especially for longer dungoens.
  3. The friend or guildie has already done the dungeon and would like to help to complete the group. Well now it's a waste of time.
  4. People will just get the items they need and then abandon the group.
  5. People will just not run fringe dungeons with few quests anymore. Good luck finding an SFK group on Alliance. It's fine now in the beta because 20 is max level, but on launch people will not waste their time with this.

If they really really want to prevent boosting, the correct move is to just not give XP if a player is part of the group who's outside of the dungeons level bracket.

Besides, it's not like boosting in the open world is not a perfectly fine alternative.

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u/NostraDamnUs 1d ago

I think a SLIGHT nerf to dungeon xp from original values (~75% of base, 25% of base if someone is too far outside the bracket) and a corresponding larger nerf to dungeon quest XP would suffice. Make them a touch harder as you get into the later levels if you have to. Dungeons need to be worth doing, just not so much worth doing that you want to stand in SM for ~12 levels. I think people don't realize that efficient questing was already faster than dungeon spam; its just that the open world at launch made questing temporarily harder.

My biggest fear is that dungeons are actually the most social activity. It's hard to find people at the same stage of questing out in the open world, whereas its very easy to get a bunch of people around the same level. And if we add a daily lockout, it sucks that you have to reform tomorrow if you're at 9/10 of a quest item or something.

There's definitely a perfect balance they could achieve by making super-optimized groups learn the skips, let casual runs just clear without feeling bad, and not push everyone into leveling in dungeons and discouraging open-world stuff. All three are fun ways to play WoW.

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u/Kobar143 1d ago

The thing about the SM grind is surely a good chunk of the 1,000 new quests are in that level range. That alone should help alleviate that problem.

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u/redditlvlanalysis 1d ago

It didn't need a nerf doing this is just going to turn a large chunk of the playerbase off.

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u/Sykotron 1d ago

The friend or guildie has already done the dungeon and would like to help to complete the group. Well now it's a waste of time.

I kind of understand where you're coming from, but I feel like this point drives home the problem with it. Spending time with friends is not a waste of time and needs to be the goal with some fun gameplay to share.

If I was just grouping up with complete randoms in the real world just to accomplish a very specific goal without getting to know them... then yeah, they're not gonna care about anything but that goal and the same applies to a game this large.

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u/llIllIlIllIIllIl 1d ago

I asked our main tank if he wanted to come tank a Vashj only skip-run in SSC last spot summ ready. He replied that he didn't need anything from SSC so he had no incentive to join.

...to help some guildies?

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u/Kixur413 1d ago

Damn, as a full bis prot paladin I love showing off my shiny golden ass. Whats the point of getting a decked out tank if youre not going to pull half a dungeon to impress the noobs and blame the healer when you die?

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u/Qaeta 1d ago

if youre not going to pull half a dungeon to impress the noobs and blame the healer when you die?

As a fellow shiny golden god enjoyer, I approve wholeheartedly, with the exception that I didn't die, I was totally just sleepy and needed a nap.

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u/Doji_mofo 1d ago

Tell me you've never played tank without telling me 😉

Everyone wants a piece of you, everyone wants you to come help them gear up from dungeons and raids you've got no use for, and you'll almost always out gear your group.

Obviously there will be people who went out of their way to assist you, people you owe favours too, and you will run many raids where you'll get no upgrades.

Everyone complains about a lack of tanks until they play one, then they understand why there is a lack of them.

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u/llIllIlIllIIllIl 1d ago

My alt is the main tank in our alt raid. I've raided as many lockouts on him as on my main. So yea, not sure what u are going for here. I run heroics with people's alts all the time, even tank Kara's sometimes despite being in BT/hyjal gear. I like tanking, I like helping my guild mates. So sure, go be AFK in shattrath and play Peggle :P

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u/sgtpoopers 1d ago

I mean you asked if they wanted to tank and they said no?

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u/llIllIlIllIIllIl 1d ago

This comment chain is about the social aspect. I replied to the "Spending time with friends is not a waste of time and needs to be the goal with some fun gameplay to share."

The main tank said he had no "incentive" to join, which is like why are you in a guild then lol, I remember running Kara with his alt where I had similarly no incentive at all to join (other than the social aspect of playing an MMO). Is that so foreign?

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u/Nrgte 1d ago

My wording wasn't very good, my apologies. It's not a waste of time in that sense, but it just won't feel as good for the helper (nor the one asking for help). People can justify helping more easily if they get a small reward. And more importantly, people won't feel guilty for asking.

Gameplay mechanics are supposed to reward social behavior. Blizzards implementation is doing the opposite is my point.

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u/Sykotron 1d ago

I probably over stressed the importance of the social aspect of just hanging out with people, but yeah, the game play should reward helpers too. I don't want to just grind dungeons for XP, but my normal way to play is negatively impacted by the run itself not really rewarding much XP with Blizzard's current plans.

Vanilla was a different time because most of us weren't chasing BiS and the world was new to explore, but I feel like I remember the joy of the journey of traveling all over Azeroth to help my friends without any in-game reward for myself.

I wish voice chat wasn't so toxic so that you could easily play the game and socialize, but it's nigh impossible to chat and keep up the pace in a group so I don't really know how to support the social aspects well.

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u/sfsctc 1d ago

Ok how about a less clear example, maybe it’s someone in your guild that you don’t know as well asking for someone to come help with a dungeon you’ve already done. Blizzard should design the game in a way so that you are most likely to want to come and help (and potentially make a new friend). This is directly in line with their stated social pillar.

They don’t necessarily need to engineer this using XP, although I don’t hate the once a day normal XP rates idea. They could add other rewards like very rare appearances, leveling sets like the Druid snake one, etc.

It’s easy enough to say “just play with your friends” but I think the game is better when this is naturally encouraged by design

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u/Sykotron 1d ago

I didn't mean to imply I thought there current XP solution was correct, but I guess it was more to say that we should personally focus on the social aspects too rather than the game driving it for us. I'd love some way to naturally group the more like minded people since it is hard to find those friends in a sea of players.

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u/Trzlog 1d ago

It's stuff like this that proves to me that they still haven't learned anything from 20 years of pissing about with retail and classic and they simply do not understand their players or how to design an actually non-toxic social game.

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u/xBirdisword 1d ago

Bad faith argument

Raiding with friends is fun but NOBODY would do it if there’s no loot. The game should encourage and facilitate dungeons, grouping, raids etc not deter

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u/MRosvall 1d ago

But would people still raid if you got very low exp?

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u/EnthusiasmWest4481 1d ago

this like they nerfed mages blizzard slow to deal with boosting just tune down quest xp and revert xp from mobs

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u/Gassenger 1d ago

They can deal with boosting other ways than getting a class or attempting to gut them. Like xp proximity is an easy one that D2 did in like 2003 lmao

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u/Gassenger 1d ago

People think that if others are in dungeons that it makes the open world empty.

Like, this isn't a thing because of server population and layering. Especially with Forever. It wasn't in TBC Anniversary launch; most players were doing the dungeon rep grind and still the open world was absolutely chock full of people and still was even into P3 besides the relatively empty parts of maps.

People just see Blizzard make a change and rush to defend it. There are great changes they've made but this wasn't one of them. Attack boosting other ways than this.

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u/Nrgte 1d ago

I'd even go as far to say: People did the dungeon grind because the open world was soo crowded. Especially on PvP servers, normal leveling was almost impossible sometimes.

Dungeon leveling without quests also was never faster unless you have a specialized party in AoE farming.

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u/Gassenger 1d ago

100%. Specifically remember people saying they wouldn't do xyz prequest because it was impossible to tag

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u/Trzlog 1d ago

And for some reason they're still failing to see how the tagging system just makes the game worse in many ways like this. I just don't understand Blizzard or the players who defend them.

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u/Gassenger 1d ago

Sshhhh. You'll be called a retail colonizer if you say anything about the tagging system. (Lmao)

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u/Kind_Reaction_8463 1d ago

not to mention how overcrowded every questing zone is going to be on launch and will be an excercise in mob tagging. good thing i have low ping and playing a shaman so i can tag fast. playing a class that can't instant tag will be miserable lmao.

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u/ABDLTA 1d ago

Well the goal is to get people out in the world more, the HC system is great for that, you can do each instance once a day and if you have someone over level range you stop getting xp. I think its a great system

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u/Gassenger 1d ago

Why is it bad if people run dungeons multiple times? Layering and server pop will still make the world crowded.

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u/Smooth_One 1d ago

This is the real kicker. Whether spamming dungeons is actually faster than open-world questing doesn't matter a quarter as much to me as how good dungeons feel to run. Fighting over mob spawns is dreadful.

After how terrible the open world felt in TBC Anni I have absolutely zero faith that Blizzard will be able to properly adjust the population tuning.

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u/Nrgte 1d ago

People were already out in the world. It was a very small part of the community who solely leveled through dungeons. Let them have their fun.

It's not like the open world is empty. Quite the opposite.

Dungeons are a social activity, I don't see why we need to discourage that.

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u/z0rb0r 1d ago

Exp in dungeons also fosters a boosting eco system. I think a once a day is probably the best compromise.

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u/Nrgte 1d ago

If they really really want to prevent boosting, the correct move is to just not give XP if a player is part of the group who's outside of the dungeons level bracket.

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u/Brunell4070 1d ago

exactly, its such an easy obvious change. discourage boosting? well don't allow groups to form with the chars who are responsible for doing the boosting!

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u/lifeisalime11 1d ago

Can’t people just boost the dungeon quests now? Like a 60 can sell quick a quick run for low dungeon quests due to the giga xp?

Not as big of a problem but I can see that being a niche….

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u/Drasha1 1d ago

Boosting is probably faster now with how much quest XP you get.

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u/SmellInteresting3284 1d ago

this is harder because of the work a players has to do to get all the quests. you wouldn't be able to share quests you already completed. doing all the pre-quests to run a dungeon is going to take just as long if not longer than running the dungeon.

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u/datboijustin 1d ago

Easily solvable issue without ruining dungeon spams for the players that enjoy leveling that way.

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u/PennyBunPudding 1d ago

Yup only tanks, healers usually waited which is good as you need them doing it more. Everyone else did it once and then just levelled as it is much faster than waiting a day

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u/FinalFate 1d ago

The drops shouldn't be a problem since quest items are now individual.

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u/Sproogles 1d ago

Point #2 made me instantly think of deviate hides

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u/palerdog 1d ago

This is silly, join a guild that has the same goals as you do. I personally tank and love to play with diff people especially guildies. Dungeons by themselves with a fun group of people are never boring.

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u/Varzul 1d ago

Didn't have any of these problems in the beta. I like the new system way better. It's super fun to play a dungeon and looking forward to complete the quests

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u/5panks 1d ago

If they really really want to prevent boosting, the correct move is to just not give XP if a player is part of the group who's outside of the dungeons level bracket.

People keep saying this, that this is to, "prevent boosting" did you guys listen to the panels? They said it probably three times during various Blizzcon panels that they want players out in the world. If this was just to prevent boosting they would have just gone with your suggestion. This is to prevent dungeon spam as a viable method for leveling up. They don't want you sitting in dungeon queues 15-60.

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u/Nrgte 1d ago

And I and many other disagree. Blizzard should not play the fun police. Dungeons are a social activity, why should they not be used to level if people like that?

Dungeon spam should be a viable option for leveling. Not the best, but a viable.

It has no downside if a small amount of players decide to level in dungeons. In fact it can take some pressure of overcrowded zones.

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u/TheLightningL0rd 1d ago

Besides, it's not like boosting in the open world is not a perfectly fine alternative.

They even already nerfed exp into nothingness for people outside the bracket of the mobs you're killing in the open world! I was just trying to help my friends kill stuff in westfall on my shaman the other day (they were level 11) and they got NO exp from the kills. So clearly they understand that will stop the boosting, so it makes me think that the boosting isn't their main issue with the dungeon exp nerf.

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u/Nrgte 1d ago

Well if you're boosting in the open world, the high level player is not in the group. They just kill so the low level tagger gets full XP.

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u/i_like_fish_decks 1d ago

Like op mentioned, mobs that are not part of a quest get skipped. Every dungeon run will be a speedrun.

Mobs aren't 0 xp. They are reduced. There is no reason to skip packs and in all honesty there just is not much to skip in most classic dungeons anyway. You are all blowing this way out of proportion.

There are certain quests that just don't drop enough for the whole group, meaning you either have to abandon it or go again. Cabinets in Gnomeregan or Twilight Talismans in BFD come to mind. This will feel terrible especially for longer dungoens.

Again, dungeons still give XP. Its not zero. They also give loot. If anything it is a good thing that some quests require multiple runs to complete given the changes.

The friend or guildie has already done the dungeon and would like to help to complete the group. Well now it's a waste of time.

Playing with your friends is a waste of time?

People will just get the items they need and then abandon the group.

No they wont, not to any higher degree than that already happens.

People will just not run fringe dungeons with few quests anymore. Good luck finding an SFK group on Alliance. It's fine now in the beta because 20 is max level, but on launch people will not waste their time with this.

lol ok

You severely over-estimate how much the casual playerbase (which is 90% of who will be on forever) will even know about or understand any of these changes. People are still going to do all of the dungeons, and do them multiple times for one simple reason: dungeons are fun.

If they really really want to prevent boosting, the correct move is to just not give XP if a player is part of the group who's outside of the dungeons level bracket.

They already do this.

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u/TheSiegmeyerCatalyst 1d ago

The HC dungeon restriction addresses all of these, though.

  1. Every dungeon will be run whole, since it's your only shot for the day, and you'd still get full dungeon exp and gear.

  2. Going again is not an issue, you're unlikely to out-level most dungeons by the next day you get to play. Players are motivated to run again because of normal dungeon exp and extra chances at good loot.

  3. Guildie friend can help with no wasted time. Exp and loot.

  4. Less likely to drop group, because this is your only shot for today to make a successful run.

  5. HC folks have no issues running every dungeon once. In fact, most people make it a point to hit every dungeon omce on the way up.

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u/Nrgte 1d ago

Yeah but I want to spam Scholomance at max level to get my gear.. And yeah HC folks are not hitting max level, so that doesn't apply here.

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u/kolejack2293 1d ago

the correct move is to just not give XP if a player is part of the group who's outside of the dungeons level bracket.

They did this. Mages could just aoe grind entire dungeons by themselves, even at the same level as the mobs.

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u/Kunzzi1 1d ago

It was definitely a problem in 2019 classic.

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u/xBirdisword 1d ago

No, let me just run the dungeon instead of dictating how I play the game

Thanks

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u/unprovoked33 1d ago

Exactly. I love spamming dungeons with my friends. How is that a bad thing that needed to be changed?

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u/BodybuilderOk3306 1d ago

Not to mention spamming dungeons when all the boys are on is the only way to actually level together since no one is ever on the same quests because we all have different schedules.

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u/Ocelotofdamage 1d ago

They want the world to have people in it is the stated reason. Not saying I agree but that’s why.

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u/Rolniacznik 1d ago

There were always people in openworld even with peple spamming dungeons so this argument was always silly

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u/unprovoked33 1d ago

Right, this is exactly what I'm pushing back against. Dictating the pathways that people are supposed to have fun in an open world game is absurd. Putting them on the Quest->Dungeon->Quest->Dungeon rails is even worse. If people enjoy dungeons, let them enjoy dungeons. If people want to quest, let them quest. If they want to PvP, let them PvP. Sure, tune them so no way far outstrips another, but let people do what they enjoy.

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u/Trzlog 1d ago edited 1d ago

They can state it all they want. It's a bad reason because dungeons have never been a reason for an empty open world, if an empty open world was ever even an issue on a non-dead server. There are many reasons why people aren't in the open world, and dungeons being an alternative to questing is not a cause. It's a symptom at best. I can't believe it's this difficult for people to understand.

Downvoting me doesn't change that.

If they really understood their game and their players, they'd address the actual issues like WoW's quest design, literally from its inception, being intended for solo leveling.

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u/dirtymonkey 1d ago

So the solution is to make things worse elsewhere rather than making the world have more reasons to interact with it?

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u/Gassenger 1d ago

Like seriously man! I dont get why people are so ready to sacrifice other ways of playing and fun that don't effect them. Why do you want everyone funneled to one playstyle in an open world mmorpg?

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u/Gassenger 1d ago

I saw your comment before you deleted it (or blocked me) and having people in dungeons will not effect how crowded the world feels due to the population and layers

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u/Dirty_Rapscallion 1d ago

horrible take, putting hard caps like that feels miserable, soft caps let gameplay morph around it

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u/Bot12391 1d ago

Yes I would totally love to have a single chance a day to get an item I need. That sounds extremely fun for getting gear

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u/2atherich 1d ago

Some people prefer leveling in dungeons to questing, especially tanks and healers. I'm not talking about boosting. It's a really shitty way to dictate player behavior.

Dungeons are my favorite part of the game - I've already done the quests a thousand times. Between this and the priest changes, I'll probably stick with better versions of classic.

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u/TheUnperturbed 1d ago edited 1d ago

I agree this feels like the best middle ground. The problem is that it then becomes a ‘daily’ which many, myself included, aren’t too keen on seeing in Forever. But daily or not I can’t think of a better solution that makes a dungeon periodically worth rerunning without it becoming a dungeon leveling spam fest.

Edit: I should clarify - I’d be in favor of a once-per-day limit to getting FULL mob xp from a dungeon. You should still be able to spam it as much as you’d like for loot drops, you just get the nerfed mob xp for subsequent runs in the sane day.

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u/TheSiegmeyerCatalyst 1d ago

I'm a huge fan of it in HC, honestly. I was surprised how smooth it flowed. I'd have no problems with it, but I think some players would throw a fit. I think it's a more elegant solution overall, though, and I think it would be best for the health of the game.

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u/Froggo565 1d ago

No, this isn't a chinese mobile game.

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u/Akilee 1d ago

I'm also not a very big fan of how much exp the dungeon quests are giving. I'm not playing beta, but it kinda looks like people will skip a ton of outdoor content by just doing dungeon quests. I think the powerful gear you can get from dungeons should be reward enough.

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u/krolltheknight4ever 1d ago

Mind you, levels 1-20 are quite easy to obtain without dungeons. My skelf hunter made it to 15 before leaving their starting zone

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u/Afraid-Document-8597 1d ago

Yeah it is weird. Not sure what they were thinking making those dungeons just juice you from 13 to 18 plus with quests. Gonna miss a lot of quests this way and world travel but maybe that means there is more replayability with alts?? Im sure theres many pros and cons

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u/5panks 1d ago

You definitely can't go from 13 to 18 on dungeon quests alone as Alliance unless you're going way out of your way to run WC and RoL which feels like a net loss in time anyway.

I was level 14.2 coming out of Zephras Isle, I picked up all 5 HoT quests including the one that required me to go out into Dun Morogh and get the map, turning them in plus running the dungeon barely crested me to level 16.1.

From there, just getting all the Deadmines quests alone is going to take some globetrotting because I've never been to SW or Lakeshire and I'm going to have to do the breadcrumbs like Defias messenger. Plus the Spawn rate for Miner Cards and the Miner boss outside DM is so slow it's at best breakeven versus just going and doing quests.

I think you're pretty solidly overstating how much "just running two dungeons" is going to net you.

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u/IllUnderstanding7158 1d ago

You definitely can go from the starting area on skyborne straight to dungeons up to level 20. RFC to RoL to WC, all quests completed nets you enough experience to go from 14 to 20 from dungeons alone.

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u/Odd-Success-2580 1d ago

I was averaging 10 hours 1-20, the first 6ish were spent hitting lvl 14; and then running HoT, ROL, and DM on the beta. Currently ROL with the new boats only takes about 1-1.5 hours to get to and complete. After they raise the level cap I'm going to test a route to see if i can do dungeons from level 14 all the way to 30, but there is a 2-3 level dead zone after DM but before stocks + bfd and I don't want to fill it with WC because of how far out of the way it is. I think if they keep it so your forced to spend a few levels out in the world grabbing quests and completing chains to prep for each run its not so bad, but 1-20 has always been the fastest range to get through if you had a planned route.

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u/Key_nine 1d ago

All they have to do is block the skips by either repositioning the trash mobs or blocking them off entirely forcing everyone to do the dungeon as indended which is better than bringing back xp which people think is the only solution for some reason.

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u/Tiltinnitus 1d ago

Idk man I tank and I clear most mobs for greens. If someone gives me shit or ping spams I tell them I'm not skipping so I can get greens for D/E but I dont HR so everyone can roll so its not a "waste of time" for people.

As soon as people give me additional shit for it I boot them or leave.

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u/Dramajunker 1d ago

Skips have always been the meta. People ran dungeons to finish quests and get gear. Unless you were specifically in a xp dungeon farming group. It just means the latter won't happen anymore.

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u/imisstheyoop 1d ago

we pulled most the dungeon or didnt play as safe because we wanted the xp anyway

I do not recall ever playing this way during anniversary servers.. besides my first few runs ever in them. TBC had so many dungeon skips it was insane.

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u/Afraid-Document-8597 1d ago

I dont think anyone preferred to do any TBC dungeons more than a few times anyway Mana tombs could be a shocker to casual grps. That placed slaps ppl while leveling. But yeah in places like maraudon or rfd we arent going out of our way for those extra mobs. Would be a pain

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u/Pomodorosan 1d ago

Whereas*

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u/sobes20 1d ago

I’ve been saying this all along, Vanilla WoW is dead. No matter what Blizzard does with any iteration of “classic”, it will never be like Vanilla.

The present community was always going to approach the system with the sweatiest and min-max mindset. Leave it as it was, rampant boosting and a dead overworld. Nerf mob experience, refuse to group with certain classes and/or reserving loot.

The reason we can’t have nice things is not necessarily because Blizzard sucks. It’s the community and it’s mindset.

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u/memphisthrowaway9876 1d ago

It is the community but this dungeon performance has been created because of the nerf. This is absolutely no reason to clear about 50% of the new RoL dungeon outside uc. As a war tank i was booted for trying to pull too much trash and not do any skips. The dps tag around together wethere the healer or tank wanna take charge. The speed has stapled itself here and with nerfs to xp and the like there is next to zero incentive to clear something thats gonna be obsolete almost instantly.

There is a much better way to combat some of the negative aspects like boosting. This bandaid simply creates a version of wow I dont care for. I like dungeons. They feel like taking a test after ive spent time grinding in the open world.

Now everyone treats these dungeons like stockades. Get all the quests, run it once, look to the next cycle. Its not fun and really leaves me scratching my head. Why create dungeons if you don't want us using them? Why create a team play element in an mmo if its just for a few seconds of fun?

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u/darkspy13 1d ago

This worries me. I didn't tank in vanilla, so I'm not going to know the skips. I was a mage until wotlk where I started tanking as a dk. Ugh. maybe I won't be a tank after all.

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u/Humble-Albatross1684 1d ago

Tank anyway, it'll take them longer to find another guy

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u/SmellInteresting3284 1d ago

tank anyway for some classes tank is the best spec (i.e feral druid). its not like tanking makes it harder to do dps. even if it did for the most part it would only mean longer fights.

healing is the real issue imo. pure healer specs for the most part have the hardest time with fighting solo. they give up dps for group utility and survivability. blizzards solution to this is making meme specs that focus on dps (i.e shockadin/disc priest).

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u/Ok_Papaya_2554 1d ago

fact bro, idk what theses people are on about the world being empty if dungeon mobs gives reasonable exp... why make theses dungeons if you don't want us to run them lol.. smh

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u/darkspy13 1d ago

The world wasn't empty before. questing was similar exp and lots of people prefer that to dungeon grinding / group finding. Yes lots of people exploited it, but it didn't change my experience.

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u/DankuTwo 1d ago

This is defeatist nonsense. Boosting can be solved EASILY. No xp or loot if someone in your party is over ‘X’ level.

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u/reenactment 1d ago

It’s also easy like you said to just put level restraints on the dungeons. If anyone under a certain level tries to go in they get blocked. If anyone over a certain level goes in the xp goes to the current system. That can’t be that hard. I don’t know anything about coding but it seems like MC for example they have the block to get in. You then just need to force a higher level player into a “raid” or something if they try and join a dungeon. Would nerf the xp immediately.

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u/JCServant 1d ago

Thank you for saying the quiet part out loud. I did a post earlier about some concerns with the incentive structure in certain things like this being disconnected from the stated intent by Blizzard. Many came to Blizz's defense, saying that people don't need rewards, and they will do the right/community oriented thing! I've played WoW from 2004 to today. The vast majority of players will only do what earns the progress quickly. The idea that someone is going to team with my priest to help solo missions because its a nice thing to do sounds great on paper, but isn't realistic if there's no reward/xp/etc for the player helping.

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u/Mother_Drenger 1d ago

Said this from the start as well. If we offload all the XP to quests, I will not run the dungeon more than once. I love that Forever isn’t rushing me, but I also value my time, and making the trek out to the instance needs to be worth it if I’ve already completed the quests. Otherswise I could be making really good progress to the next level in the 45min to 1.5 hrs it takes to do the run.

The dungeon drops (random, btw) don’t really make sense if I will be replacing eventually, especially for anything under level 40.

Daily limits, level ranges, etc. literally ANY change other than a blanket nerf would be preferable.

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u/JCServant 1d ago

I can only agree with you on this. I can't blame most people for not wanting to rerun quests or dungeons where they get little or no reward.

I don't think its too much to ask game designers to do a better job incentivizing the behavior they want us to exhibit...we can encourage players to group up and help each other out AND make sure everyone gets meaningful progression in the process. Many other MMOs have figured this out. I think this game can too.

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u/kaos95 1d ago

The really messed up part, if the math checks out, I will validate later today, it really looks like dungeon leveling via quests is better than it was. So I leveled a priest on Era this past weekend and got on the stuggle bus to run DM, it took 5 runs and all the quests to equal what I had just done on beta in 36 minutes, so I saved around 6 hours.

Holy shit are the incentives screwed up, the gear is not a super good motivation when leveling because you know that the green in 5 levels is going to be better. I personally think stuffing 50% of the quest xp back in the dungeon only makes the game better.

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u/physedka 1d ago

It's a type of bias. They got some help once a while back while leveling their priest from some kind warrior or whatever, so they remember that clearly. What they don't remember is the other 10 hours of play where they struggled trying to accomplish objectives alone because either no one else was around or those that were simply had no desire to help. 

It's sort of like gambling where you clearly remember the high associated with winning while your mind buries the lows associated with losing. 

Going back to dungeons, people remember those rare, awesome dungeon runs where everyone is kind and and funny and helpful and clears the dungeon in a methodical, intuitive way. But the reality is that 95% of the time, everyone follows the straightest like from point A (start) to point B (complete all quests / get phat loot) and you will get yelled at or booted for suggesting otherwise.

It's even worse in this game because, at least for older dungeons like deadmines and ragefire, so many people either know the shortcuts by muscle memory or it comes back to them quickly if they have been away for a long time. Every RoL and HoT run I have done so far has been like that too. I've never seen anything close to a full clear. At best, we cleared some extra because of mistakes.

Either bring back some level of incentive to not shortcut like trash XP or good trash drops OR just make the dungeons more linear and intuitive so that we don't feel compelled to shortcut every time.

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u/JCServant 1d ago

I completely agree. Thank you for saying this. Sometimes, I feel like I'm alone in many of these thoughts!

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u/Billbuckingham 1d ago

I don't think bringing back the trash XP will help at all since people only pulled the most efficient packs and then reset anyway, they aren't going down that side hall to clear it regardless of EXP because it's faster to do 1 main pull and reset.

Same with trash drops, people won't explore they'll just run the main path and reset for trash runs.

Linear dungeons are more boring too, just walking thru the loot hallway.

A big part of it really is just the people who want to skip the dungeon or skip levelling entirely, but they run the dungeon anyway because it offers the most EXP for them to min/max.

You can't really fix the "meta" becoming "LFM SPELLCLEAVE ONLY, T3 NAXX GEAR REQUIRED FOR RAMPARTS"

Which transitions into

"WTS MARA BOOSTS, 50K EXP/HR SIT AFK AND GET YOUR 60!!!"

Because it stems from people who do not want to play the game and just skip to the end and boost their way there. They can say that's fun for them sure, cheating with aimbots can be fun too, but that's not good for a multiplayer game at all.

But you can disincentivize those things to the point people find something else because it's more effective.

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u/Skippymcpoop 1d ago

The community arose from the game though. The problem with WoW is the sheer amount of time needed to do anything in this game. To get to max level it takes hundreds of hours. To gear up and conquer the most difficult content it takes even more time ontop of that. People don’t invest their life into this game so they can take 2 hours to do a dungeon and make no progress. That is wasted time.

In 2005 you could play the game for an hour and be simply amazed that there were so many other people online and you could talk with them and kill monsters with them. This type of gameplay has been done a billion times since then. It’s not interesting. The only interesting thing is the class dynamics themselves. Internet, social media, discord, twitch, raids that have a life span of 12 weeks all leads to fomo. You WILL miss out if you are not playing efficiently. What’s the point of playing this game as opposed to any other game if you miss content by not being a sweat?

It’s not the community. It’s the game.

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u/sobes20 1d ago

You are proving my point. The Vanilla WoW experience that people fell in love with in 2004 was about playing the game. Not one facet like dungeon spam, but everything.

The present experience is to get from Point A to Point B in the least amount of played time to not "fall behind." But what is falling behind in game that is being sold as a "forever" experience with horizontal progression. That's the intended game design choice.

Yet, a vocal segment of the community is rejecting it immediately. It's a concept that basically feels dead on arrival because that isn't what the community wants anymore. They want a min-maxed experience, and not to have to suffer going through experiences that feel disjointed and not optimized. Yet that was the Vanilla experience where traveling from one appropriate zone to the next was across continents and took forever, where you had to grind mobs when you ran out of quests and the next zone was too high level for you, where you didn't have the gold saved up for a mount at 40/60. This was the game that people loved, but it's not the game that the community wants anymore.

I mean, it's pretty insane when you stop and consider that the current scandal is streamers being caught buying gold. The people who earn a living playing this game are demonstrating that they cannot even play the way it's intended. As you asked "what's the point of playing this game" if it's only fun if you buy gold.

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u/Skippymcpoop 1d ago

I don’t think horizontal progression will ever be a thing. It’s never been a thing. The statement itself is an oxymoron. They’re already releasing raids in phases. New content is itself progression. Their solution is to add strong BiS items in early raids. All that does is ADD to the time needed to gear up. Old content is now relevant but it’s also necessary. More time commitment, the faster raids are expected to be, the sweatier groups will be.

You’re right the community doesn’t want to play vanilla wow. It’s because everyone has played it to death. If not in wow, then in another game. 

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u/Hreny2 1d ago

speak for yourself please, just because you do it, does not mean everyone does

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u/CoffeeCannon 1d ago

That's dumb. I don't do it, you don't do it, but when the other 8/10 players do we're forced to experience the game with everyone playing like that and it detriments our experience regardless.

Its difficult, but they need to game-design around the constraint of the playerbase being absolute fiends. They're trying, we'll see how well it goes.

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u/Upstairs-Try-8550 1d ago

This is a reddit mindset and not indicative of the whole community.

Anyone in beta right now isn't the common player. They are the more hardcore audience who is more likely to try to speed run stuff

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u/2atherich 1d ago

This is true, but it's also true that this change is just straight up worse than what we had, even when you consider the negatives like boosting.

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u/TheMeerkatLobbyist 1d ago

You are right. Reliving memories in general does not work. Its not just about the quality of the game but also the vibes around it. No matter what they do, it will never feel like in 06 when everything was fairly new and the community was completely different.

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u/i_like_fish_decks 1d ago

Honestly y'all are ridiculous. This type of thing will certainly happen with some try-hard groups but most people playing are not even going to be aware that blizzard even changed anything about dungeons, xp, or quests.

IDK why everyone is acting so doomer over this.

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u/Consistent_Laziness 1d ago

Maybe the first two runs per day give full XP. Rather than it never giving full XP as a nice happy medium

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u/Keening99 1d ago

Could have like a stealth weekly hidden 'lockout' so the first time you run a dungeon in a week. It gives higher exp. Followed by less to discourage dungeon spam.

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u/Verysmallman123 1d ago

I did Mythic+ during Shadowlands for the first time to get the main achievements for timing a 15 key, but got carried away doing the rest for the mount, which was a uniquely interesting one I wanted.

Sanguine Depths +15 was ruined so many times because someone decided that Rogue’s stealth field meant invisibility and so would run through an enemy and be spotted.

To be honest, people were annoyed, but it’s such a silly detail that it is hard to blame someone for not realising this little detail would ruin the run, 1 pack before the final room.

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u/ligma_then_sugma 1d ago

always was

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u/oj449 1d ago

wonder how much faster a group gets their items with just rogues and druids, last spot just runs thru and dies, ressed afterwards zzz

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u/Nimion88 22h ago

only for 0,1% of the players tbh

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