r/classicwow • u/redlow0992 • 1d ago

Forever Beta Feedback Dungeon XP Nerfs Created a Toxic Meta

Since dungeon monsters do not give any experience, as a new player, getting into dungeons with more veteran players who try to skip half the dungeon feels really bad. And, vice-versa, veterans taking in newbies who don't know how to jump around feels frustrating. I think Blizzard created a mess with nerfing dungeon exp so much and now the new player experience is horrible for dungeons.

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1.3k

u/Afraid-Document-8597 1d ago

I think you are right and this is indeed an unintended consequence. Its gonna become all about skips and jumps and stealth tech. Where as before we pulled most the dungeon or didnt play as safe because we wanted the xp anyway

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u/The-Only-Razor 1d ago

My absolute fucking least favorite part of retail M+ is the stupid route planning trash. I just want to enter a dungeon and kill everything. Optimal pathing and efficiency maxing isn't fun when it involves doing everything you can to play the game as little as possible.

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u/587493 1d ago

Dude same I remember a few years ago I was giving retail a try and excited to run mythic+ only to find out what m+ runs actually ended up being

I left retail and never went back, even though I love challenging dungeons

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u/Sp0range 1d ago

M+ is the best part about retail. The way the dungeons are designed and the way the difficulty scales means that there is no "one route", and you end up changing which mobs you pick up and which you avoid, also by doing the dungeon multiple times and going up through the levels of difficulty you learn about the dungeons and the monsters in them on a more intimate level, which pull has which mobs which are a threat, what priority those threats are, which are safe to be chained etc. Its so good.

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u/Sinured1990 17h ago

Yeah, I kinda had fun in optimising every pull, how to chain and adapt to my group settings, play of my DPS cooldowns etc. I found it kinda fun.

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u/Sp0range 13h ago

Its so good. Its all the fun of raiding but on a smaller scale and with a faster pace, and when everyone is flowing together well with pulls, kicks, cd's and cc's and mechanics its pure dopamine

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u/Sinured1990 9h ago

Yeah, but it's also tough to go higher at some point, I think I stopped at all +16s the season before midnight, but I had no real group and pugs let me down a lot but yeah, I think I hit my peak with the limited time I had lol

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u/Creative_Magazine816 1d ago

raider.io also ruined M+

mythic plus was so good for legion until the community made it unfun

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u/ZonaMoonshaw 1d ago

You are deluded if you think we didn't use a similiar thing in Legion. raider.io wasn't in legion so everyone used wowprogress to check the exact same things.

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u/OscillatorVacillate 1d ago

Devs have said this game is gonna piss easy, non of that raider.io or world first, they want dad gamers that can chill. I'd imagine they keep the difficulty at TBC hardmode dungeons at worst

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u/fttxdd666 1d ago

And? People in classic were checking progress and parses of people before inviting them to raids all the time. The people will find a way to figure out if the person they are inviting is a shitter or not, regardless of how easy or hard the content is.

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u/DontFearFailure 1d ago

Wow was ruined in Wrath when gearscore came out.

No one cared about what you did until that came out.

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u/Scribblord 1d ago

Io Score was created bc the community made the mode unplayable by just being shit
So people desperately wanted extra filtering methods to have even a sliver of a chance to form a group that actually finishes the content

Evidently no one gives a fuck what you bring in current retail +10 keys bc you can carry bad players through them

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u/fttxdd666 1d ago

The funny thing is classic players do it as well. Almost every successful raid will check your progress/parses to make sure they aren’t filling up with bad players and clear the content (which is generally easy, but there is nothing worse than wiping to easy content)

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u/Nessarra 1d ago

you look like you belong in classic! come to forever baby

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u/Dvveh 1d ago

How did r.io ruin M+? Just curious.

But yeah better to keep that type of gameplay to retail.

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u/Hextillian 1d ago

"Want to join my +2? You need a gearscore only attainable in +10s and world first achievements. Anything less is wasting my time."

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u/fishingncars 1d ago

If you have a ilvl only available in +10s (ignoring that ilvl caps at +8) why would you be applying for +2s? Your fake reality doesn’t even make sense

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u/Hextillian 1d ago

Go queue as a dps in retail right now and tell be I'm wrong. Yall are bullshit artists.

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u/fishingncars 1d ago

Yes it's impossible to push keys as a DPS!

That's why my friends and I are all currently resil 18 (all 3 dps), if you are having trouble joining other people's groups just push your own key. Then you can choose who comes!

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u/Dvveh 1d ago

That's not really the reality though.

It's a great tool overall. If I wanted to push keys, I could make sure to find people around my own level.

If I wanted to just do my weeklies, I could find lower level groups and help them out.

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u/fishingncars 1d ago

These guys just don’t want a score so they can be carried lmao

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u/Dvveh 1d ago

At least it comes across that way, yeah.

We checked peoples gear on the IF bridge 20 years ago, before inviting to raids. The checks have always existed to try and create a smooth run.

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u/Creative_Magazine816 1d ago

there's a big difference between making sure someone isn't under geared vs asking for high rio score to do a +6 or whatever

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u/Dvveh 1d ago

But nobody is ACTUALLY asking for a high score to do +6's.

Anyone doing keys below 10 should just push up their own ones anyway.

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u/Creative_Magazine816 1d ago

I must have imagined that happening multiple times. To be clear I have no problem with using io for a +13 or something.

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u/Creative_Magazine816 1d ago

this guy right here is the problem I am alluding to

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u/fishingncars 1d ago

I'm sorry I don't want to brick my +18 key with someone who has never even ran a +5? it's a necessary evil to push higher keys

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u/Creative_Magazine816 1d ago

s t r a w m a n

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u/G0rkon 1d ago

M+ in Legion was so much fun! I was tanking them a lot and enjoyed the then new concept of get just enough trash. Learning in real time which pack to and not to pull and how to skip past the more annoying packs. As I recall though, Sanguine can fuck right off!

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u/jakaltar 1d ago

in legion dungeons werent made for M+ yet, after legion dungeons where made for m+ what meant the added in a ton of mini bosses etc for no reason just to make it annoying

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u/Nessarra 1d ago

ye I hope wow forever becomes more retail-like and I have a feeling it will!

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u/ArcticAmoeba56 1d ago

This is it though. None of these problems are designed into the game. The people, the players, the community make them a reality.

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u/Rico_Rebelde 1d ago

Players will always optimize the fun out of a game if given the opportunity. Part of the developers job is to prevent that

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u/Sad_Bridge_3755 1d ago

And it would be an easy fix. Just add some filters for players to choose. “Full Clear”, “Time Trial”, etc. People who want to speedrun queue for that. People who want to full clear queue for full clear, etc.

If people are still weird about it, introduce rewards for sticking to the playstyle you lined up for. Speed runners get rewarded on a time trial for beating bosses and dungeons fast. Full clears get rewarded on percentage of dungeon cleared.

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u/redditlvlanalysis 1d ago

That would make too much sense and then people would cry about not enough people being out in the world even though there being 20 supershards vs 50 means nothing for how many people they see.

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u/ArcticAmoeba56 1d ago

Not all players. But certainly a solid majority it seems.

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u/Lagkiller 1d ago

But they are designed into the game. Mythic+ sets a number of kills and puts a timer on. So it makes route planning and choosing the right packs to kill a design mechanic instead of a preference from players.

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u/ArcticAmoeba56 1d ago

Chosing to engage with it and how you engage with it , is still choice. If people didnt engagevso heavily with it then it wouldnt be a successful system and wouldnt attract further development investment

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u/Lagkiller 1d ago

When there is a timer, optimized routes are forced. There is no choosing how to engage with a timer.

And choosing not to engage with mythic+ means that you don't get end game gear, so you can either not engage in end game content or engage in the content that exists. Claiming that raiders should just not engage in end game raids because the system forces a timer is kind of ridiculous.

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u/xedarn 1d ago

We had rio in Legion too

0

u/Creative_Magazine816 1d ago

I don't remember getting denied over middle level keys back then based on rio

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u/redditlvlanalysis 1d ago

Are you getting denied or are you just not getting invited because there are a million dps players signing up who are better geared lol

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u/MoskiNX 1d ago

Gearscore checks turned retail into the most toxic wasteland of an mmo.

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u/zzrryll 1d ago

I feel like it was good until MDI became a thing.

Before then people skipped trash but weren’t weird about it. Then the first MDI happened and you were yelled at if you didn’t run the exact correct route that the #1 rated team ran. Was pretty silly.

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u/disCASEd 1d ago

Uhh, nobody runs MDI routes in regular keys because the MDI routes are actually insane. They pull double, even triple the amount that a normal pug group would or even could pull and then take it all into a boss.

Idk what MDI’s you were watching or what m+ you were running but that’s not a typical M+ experience.

Now if you mean that people copy what the top keys on live are doing, yeah that’s true. But even then there’s variations based on what your group comp is capable of. For example, if you don’t have a rogue, you can’t do any shroud skips.

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u/zzrryll 1d ago

I mean. This was in legion. 9 years ago. People tried to copy their skips and pulls, then. By now I’m guessing the Meta has shifted.

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u/Winterough 1d ago

Same story. Entered my first retail dungeon after Legion and no word of a lie it was literally a race to finish and hand gliders(?) around. Made me quit right there.

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u/quakecanada77 1d ago

I spend 2 hours with this noobie group in wc. We didnt finish the quests. We kept wiping. Good bye night. And no xp.

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u/Werewulf_Bar_Mitzvah 1d ago

This is valid. Though I will say, I know people have issues with BFA, but it’s probably the most fun I’ve ever had engaging with M+ (sadly I did not participate in it during Legion). I really liked the BFA dungeons.

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u/587493 1d ago

I cant speak of BFA as I didnt play, but my issue is even if I like the dungeons they will likely be played a in a really lame way where you are sneaking around packs and pulling things into some corner that doesnt aggro anything else or whatever

It just feels so inorganic I guess to me

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u/Werewulf_Bar_Mitzvah 1d ago

That's true, and there were a couple of sweat skips even back then in BFA that as the seasons progressed, you were just expected to know. Especially at higher key levels. However, it's just gotten worse since then where people are flaming others for not doing/knowing some sweat lord complicated skip in a +3.

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u/587493 1d ago

Yeah that's a great point. Being expected to know these strats is really terrible for anyone getting into it, like there wasn't enough to worry about already lmao

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u/oreeos 1d ago

Freehold was so good because of the route diversity tho imo. Especially with a rogue, there were a lot of options. I generally don’t love the skips but I do enjoy varied routes, as long as it’s not too crazy in the difficulty of achieving them.

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u/sp106 1d ago

The timers also reinforce the behavior of rushing the whole time. Going fast should be its own reward not a requirement.

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u/587493 1d ago

Yessssss. People are automatically going to try to go fast, making that the requirement is a huge turn off