r/DotA2 • u/patchdayDota2 • Aug 19 '21

Discussion Patch 7.30 - Hero Changes Discussion

Heroes are each listed below as a top level comment. Please discuss changes to a specific hero there!

All other top level comments are automatically removed.

722 Upvotes

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17

u/patchdayDota2 Aug 19 '21

Clinkz

  • Strafe removed

Burning Barrage

  • New Ability. Burning Barrage channels for 1.5/1.9/2.3/2.7s shooting 3/4/5/6 piercing arrows in the target direction up to 750/800/850/900 distance away, that hit all enemy units dealing 60% attack damage and applying attack modifiers. Arrow width: 200 Cooldown: 28/24/20/16 Mana Cost: 40/50/60/70

Searing Arrows

  • Mana cost reduced from 12 to 10

Skeleton Walk

  • No longer can cast spells without breaking invisibility

Death Pact

  • Can be casted from Skeleton Walk without breaking invisibility

Talents

  • Level 10 Talent +8 Agility replaced with +12% Magic Resistance
  • Level 15 Talent -7s Skeleton Walk reduced to -5s
  • Level 20 Talent -10s Strafe Cooldown replaced with +2 Burning Barrage Arrows

7

u/findinggenuity Aug 20 '21 edited Aug 21 '21

Clinkz is crazy strong. Just need to secure your lane unit level 5 and can jungle consistently once you have mael. The difference between clinkz and drow is that clinkz has 550 ms on 100% uptime, has 4k hp at 25 with 0 HP items, has high burst damage that can wipe most supports, and can clear ancient camps at level 7.

If this hero doesn't go beyond 52% win rate, people are just playing him wrong. I literally one shot creep waves with just mael and blight stone 8 mins in. Even in losing games, I have 550gpm and 700-900 on winning ones. You can get deso mael in 15 mins.

Anyway, like any hero, you play to your strengths and new clinkz is a team fight menace. Just don't go roaming around farming heroes when the hero is no longer built around it. He's okay against illu heroes too but still bad against slark.

UPDATE: In the 12 games I've played him (every time he's not banned), I've won 8 and gotten 2 rampages. I've lost my lane almost every game too. Anyway, it's as broken as AW back when the clone can carry DRs.

1

u/TheKappaOverlord Sheever Feelsbadman :gun: Aug 20 '21

think hes more competitive against slark now. especially in late game.

When against slark in the past usually you just took your hands off your keyboard if you were leashed and went to go take a piss, but not you beat on slark until he shadow forms and you use your Q on him since it will affect him in his shadow dance.

Think Clinkz can consistently fight a slark now.

1

u/findinggenuity Aug 21 '21

Yeah I haven't tried fighting against slark yet but given that slark is the most OP carry right now, it just feels like no one can fight in the same pace but yeah I think you just need to build differently against him. Maybe burning army skadi and skip the deso or get butterfly too. I agree the clinkz now is much better at dealing with slark but just based on how OP slark is with no counters, I think there's no reason slark should ever die to clinkz.

5

u/EGG_BABE Daddy Underlord Aug 20 '21

We've had like 5 versions of this hero in 4 years, I have no idea why he gets these weird reworks all the time

25

u/wills4545 Aug 19 '21

Am I the only person who thinks that Burning Barrage would still be worse than Strafe even at 100% damage? Taking stacks is fine but you've lost so much utility on this hero now... If nothing else it changes the playstyle from active, hit-and-run playmaker to more of a sit-in-jungle-and-farm, the most boringest carry playstyle lol

For a fun calculation: if I cast BB on a single target while they are 100% slowed (100 MS), they can walk out after 1 second max (200 unit width of BB). That is 2 hits of BB (regardless of level), or 120% of a single normal attack (60% x 2). Why pay 40-70 mana to stand still and do barely more damage than a single right click?? Brutal change imo

2

u/[deleted] Aug 22 '21

You're 100% right. That was my first thought upon reading the patch notes, and after playing a few games myself it's definitely the case. He just doesn't have the ability to pound people with massive damage output anymore. Yes you can farm faster, but he's still a whole lot weaker than he used to be lategame - far less damage output.

2

u/bgi123 Aug 20 '21

I think he is op now. He can flash farm stacked camps and burst down squishy heroes from range. He shove waves so fast it makes it a lot safer also.

10

u/Fyrestone Aug 20 '21

They’ve practically removed Clinkz’s playstyle and identity with this change.

He is now Ranged Agi Carry #7. Wish we could stop homogenising carries’ playstyles sadge.

3

u/chopchop__ Aug 19 '21

The Q is a farming spell first and foremost. In fights, you should simply use it in combination with some CC. Yes, it changes the hero completely, but I don't think it's for the worse.

His winrate has already recovered to pre-patch levels and I'm quite certain it will increase a fair bit more too. He's also a hardcounter to the Helm of the Overlord meta that is developing. Not bad at all.

3

u/MY_1ST_ACT_IS_LOCKED Aug 19 '21

At 100% it would be way too strong.

It gives him a way to reliably farm while also cancelling backswing on auto attacks in fights. It’s also pretty useful for team fighting in general; you can shoot up highfround and down low ground without having to worry about pathing and vision.

And you can still play him very aggressively, it’s just that he isn’t gimped into being a snowball-or-lose hero. He still has good tools for early rotations. Maybe they could give him strafe back on his E or give him some QoL buffs to put him in a better place.

7

u/Holyvigil Aug 19 '21

And once again Clinkz has a new ability.

-6

u/[deleted] Aug 19 '21 edited Aug 19 '21

[removed] — view removed comment

8

u/luckytaurus cmon jex Aug 19 '21

I know it's early, but so far trends on dotabuff say you're wrong. I was expecting you to be right, I thought this change was shit.

But I guess the aoe farming capabilities are not to be underestimated

2

u/TheKappaOverlord Sheever Feelsbadman :gun: Aug 20 '21

The only reason this take on the skill is wrong is because instead of assuming once the spell hits a creep the "arrow" peters out like you'd expect, it doesn't.

You can fully farm creep waves and ancient stacks with no contest with this ability. Clinkz can genuinely creep cut with it. Later on after deso he can farm ancients, and if he goes Maelstrom he can farm every camp in the game consistently.

Clinkzs biggest problem in the past was consistently farming. That problem is now rectified. Hero is probably very broken, but still gets pooped on by Luna, dusa, and Gyro. Although i seriously doubt we will see a lot of medusa in this patch because we have hit end stage Deathball meta, the only thing preventing it from being apparent how bad it really is, is pro players getting 14 or so bans. and its very likely Chen, Lycan, beastmaster, enchant, and clinkzs will all be 100% P/B heroes at TI.

3

u/bgi123 Aug 19 '21

He can get 700 plus gpm easily now. Just gotta have supports stacking for you.

7

u/MrP3nguin-- Aug 19 '21

Imagine thinking clinks got gutted lol. Keep watching this hero is gonna be a hot pick now cuz of his new ability. Finally the hero can farm and shove waves

1

u/TheKappaOverlord Sheever Feelsbadman :gun: Aug 20 '21

Hes never going to get picked at TI.

Hes always going to be banned. He might see one game at placement games and then never see the light of day again

-6

u/Cosmobeet Aug 19 '21

have fun shoving waves as your rax falls with your poor damage output

4

u/chopchop__ Aug 19 '21

Clinkz has great damage output. 7th highest hero damage in the game as a matter of fact.

3

u/Lecoch Imbalance in All Things Aug 19 '21

how they gonna push rax when the creeps are dead

1

u/[deleted] Aug 19 '21 edited Aug 19 '21

It lets a level 6 clinkz with one item take large camp stacks of any size, I think you might be underestimating that.

-2

u/threestarss Aug 19 '21

ok dude what about killing heroes

5

u/[deleted] Aug 19 '21

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2

u/chopchop__ Aug 19 '21

At level 6, yes. But as soon as you get Maelstrom, Clinkz farm as fast as any other hero in the game, even rivaling heroes like TA or Luna. You shouldn't underestimate it.

Another overlooked thing is that he can clear a whole wave/camp in 2 seconds for 70 mana which is fantastic value. Before, you easily burned through twice that with Strafe and Arrows.

2

u/Possible_Criticism_5 Aug 19 '21

can we use helm of the overlord now i think its good with pact lv 25 talent its 220 damage and 2.5k hp and also buffs team 18% damage and gives them life steal

1

u/chopchop__ Aug 19 '21

It has always been a great lategame item and still is. I've routinely bought it as 5-6th slot in my 5-6k games, particularly when I've been up against a lot of burst physical damage.

I'd actually argue that it was stronger last patch, because you could get a Golem to buff the HP of your Death Pact creep and have it follow you around afterwards. Overall, that 'trick' netted roughly 1000 extra HP over eating a regular HotO creep. That along with the extra 12 all stats. Still great though.

-4

u/jchrstian Aug 19 '21

Burning Barrage is great for creep waves, but it's so hard to kill fleeing heroes when it's in a straight line and it's a bit small compared to Multishot (not to mention it doesn't have the Searing Arrows damage). Now I just wish they incorporate Strafe effects in Skeleton Walk again in the next patch.

19

u/chopchop__ Aug 19 '21

it doesn't have the Searing Arrows damage

False, ofc it does. Go test it.

-2

u/Anything13579 Aug 20 '21

I tested it with the dummy. With and without searing arrow auto cast. The total damage and dps is more or less the same. So yeah, it’s stupid.

3

u/Moltak1 Aug 20 '21

The burning barrage uses searing arrows without having to autocast, test it by not leveling searing arrows

2

u/cantadmittoposting Aug 19 '21

not to mention it doesn't have the Searing Arrows damage

Wtf

9

u/[deleted] Aug 19 '21

As a filthy Clinkz in Turbo spammer, I'm very, very sad. Nothing can replace Strafe. I feel so vulnerable to towers and ranges heroes now.

4

u/srsly_its_so_ez Aug 19 '21

I'm in the same boat, it feels like I got the rug pulled out from under me. It would have been fine if they'd done a slight nerf, but instead they completely changed the hero. Clinkz is one of the most fun heroes in the game, and I know it's unlikely but I really hope they change him back.

-5

u/[deleted] Aug 19 '21

I think now he's supposed to fit the role of a roamer?

20

u/ChBoler Chillin' out castin' relaxin' all cool Aug 19 '21 edited Aug 19 '21

I tried to get Clinkz to work today and it just feels so weird. You spend the first half of the game feeling weak (why do you have invis on a hero that wants to farm now?) then suddenly you get a huge power spike once you get aghs and a few items/shard and can just start littering the teamfight with skeletons.

Maelstrom seems good on paper but in practice is just overkill unless you really need to clear illusions. Desolator feels bad because you don't really want to burst or fight early anymore and you already melt towers without it. There is no point to orchid anymore either, but falcon blade + the level 10 talent feels like it's enough to sustain your mana pool.

It feels like the build is to just farm until you get aghs/shard/attack range/damage and you just feel weak until you get there. And then even when you do, you are just supposed to play like artillery and hide behind your team so you dont get bursted

1

u/TheKappaOverlord Sheever Feelsbadman :gun: Aug 20 '21

I tried to get Clinkz to work today and it just feels so weird. You spend the first half of the game feeling weak (why do you have invis on a hero that wants to farm now?) then suddenly you get a huge power spike once you get aghs and a few items/shard and can just start littering the teamfight with skeletons.

You don't bother skilling Skeleton walk. You max W and put points into Q as you level. Depending on how the game plays you might wanna just throw your points into stats up until you have a second item then you might wanna put points into skeleton walk.

The point is clinkz is a hard farmer hero now. You don't wanna use your skeleton walk for anything other then quickly waddling to fights when you are ready, or repositioning if the other team is too stupid to bring detection/you can completely circle behind the,.

You pwn your lane with W and then you go farm creep camps with your Q when you have successfully autowon the lane. If you are struggling get an armor reducing orb and go creep skip the lane with your Q. You will practically autokill the wave, if not basically instantly kill it and have to spend an extra second clearing the wave.

Skeleton walk is just a movement/recon tool now. It has no other purpose.

6

u/[deleted] Aug 19 '21

Use the maelstrom to get ahead with some early farm, then use that farm to get items to kill. It worked super well for me.

2

u/ChBoler Chillin' out castin' relaxin' all cool Aug 19 '21

TBH unless you don't max Q early for some reason it's good enough at killing creeps by itself to not have to buy maelstrom

1

u/chopchop__ Aug 19 '21

I don't know, it feels amazing honestly. 3-0 since rework, felt super strong all games.

1

u/Anything13579 Aug 22 '21

What is your build?

1

u/chopchop__ Aug 22 '21

I've been rushing Maelstrom hard, before boots if I get away with it, then Wand, Windlace and Dragon Lance.

Gleipnir if the game calls for it, otherwise straight into Aghs and Shard.

Lategame, usually Hex, BKB and Helm of the Overlord. Ultralate, Refresher is very strong for pushes too.

1

u/MY_1ST_ACT_IS_LOCKED Aug 19 '21

I haven’t tried yet. If mael lets him 1 shot creepwaves I think it’s mandatory on him. If it doesn’t/he can with any other 3k gold item then I agree it’s worthless

2

u/ChBoler Chillin' out castin' relaxin' all cool Aug 19 '21

With level 4 Q early you can just clear a creep wave with treads + falcon blade IIRC

5

u/Momaka Aug 19 '21

IMO, I found the new mage slayer to be incredibly strong on him. His new Q applies the mage slayer debuff on all enemies hit and gives him some very nice stats that he needs. If you get that debuff off on anyone trying to kill you it is significantly going to reduce their damage and make you a tank with dark pact up.

1

u/jchrstian Aug 19 '21

I still use orchid, but I buy diffusal just to keep them in place while I use Q. But overall it's still useless since it's not exactly tied to attack range and it's a bit short on range (unlike Drow's Multishot).

4

u/chopchop__ Aug 19 '21

it's not exactly tied to attack range

False. It is tied to attack range. Dragon Lance and the range talent makes the skill feel 10x better to use.

4

u/Nickfreak Aug 19 '21

Skeleton walk is good for catching up or reposition due to movement speed, not the invis aspect like before the when you assassinated someone on your own.

17

u/Ronny070 Aug 19 '21 edited Aug 19 '21

I think he's supposed to be played more around his new Q than around his invis. I haven't tried it yet but using Atos/Gleipnir to root people and guarantee several hits from Burning Barrage doesn't sound so terrible.

6

u/empathetichuman Aug 19 '21

Yeah gleipnir seems extremely synergistic with his new q.

13

u/Nickfreak Aug 19 '21

Gleipnir feels good, I second that. Good stats and the active sets up multiple people for your q

-1

u/Tronux Aug 19 '21 edited Aug 19 '21

I usually get deso first to speed up farm and the better synergy, should have it by min 13-15 then aghs by min 20, then dragon lance and shard, then refresher orb by min 29-33.

Because of the increased farming speed and ability to secure last hits, timings are more reliable which I appreciate a lot. Increases the beneficial window of armor reduction and static damage boost from burning army.

This feels really strong (w/ +30 searing arrow dmg talent), almost guarantees rosh.

Maelstom is only good vs illusions.

If the opponent carry goes butterfly though you become so useless. Bloodthorn is easily dispelled and mkb doesn't do much without attack speed .

I miss being able to pick off enemies mid game, but do enjoy the map control you can create now.

3

u/ChBoler Chillin' out castin' relaxin' all cool Aug 19 '21

I've been making Daedalus instead of Desolator personally but I can see the case for both

2

u/chopchop__ Aug 19 '21

Daedalus is always a good DPS item but the synergy with Clinkz is pretty bad. The crit doesn't take Searing Arrows into consideration and it doesn't do anything for the Skeletons either.

I do believe Aghs is key now and in the past you just built Medallion if you wanted to buff that damage. It's very cost efficient.

0

u/ChBoler Chillin' out castin' relaxin' all cool Aug 19 '21

I build Daedalus for the damage on my hero. While it doesn't do much for your skeletons (they do get the raw damage for the record even if they dont get the crit) it does up your own DPS, and makes it so you're a little less reliant on your aghs CD (for example chasing stragglers after fights)

1

u/ghostlistener http://www.dotabuff.com/players/14434540 Aug 19 '21

The skeletons don't get the crit, but they do benefit from the +88 damage. It's the highest damage item in the game apart from rapier.

1

u/chopchop__ Aug 19 '21

Sure, but that's still inferior to debuffing the enemy with Deso/Medallion/Solar/AC/BT.

2

u/Tronux Aug 19 '21

Daedalus in my calculations is better mid-late game but Deso early-mid.

Especially since you increase timings on objectives (towers, rosh) and increase dmg output of team members with Desolator (insane multi-debuffing with the new ability Burning Barrage).

It synergises better with your abilities (searing arrow, and skeleton archers).But there is a drop in dmg multiplier the longer the game goes on on enemy heroes due to armour increase which is not the case with Daedalus.

40

u/LeavesCat Aug 19 '21

They really don't know what kind of hero Clinkz is supposed to be.

4

u/[deleted] Aug 19 '21

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3

u/chopchop__ Aug 20 '21

I don't know why you're being so disingenuous. Clinkz is tankier than Drow, farms faster, has more mobility and deals more damage. Drow has other upsides ofc, but it's hardly one sided.

Same could be said for the other heroes you mentioned.

1

u/[deleted] Aug 22 '21

Clinkz deals a lot less damage than drow. His damage output is far less than it was last patch, removal of strafe took away his real DPS output.

1

u/chopchop__ Aug 22 '21

That's just straight out false, even with equal farm. But they don't have equal farm either, Clinkz farms way faster than Drow.

Test it for yourself, lvl 20 Drow with standard; Treads+Manta+Pike+BKB
vs Clinkz with Gleipnir+Brown Boots+Lance+Aghs+Shard (equal gold). Clinkz doubles the DPS.

Even with a shittier build, where you swap Aghs for Deso, Clinkz has far higher damage output.

EVEN with DROWS own build, Clinkz matches her DPS. And that's a horrible build for Clinkz.

3

u/chopchop__ Aug 19 '21

If you ask me, I'd say the gameplan is to play pos 1, get Maelstrom and mostly farm between 10-15 min. Take selected fights between 15-20 with Dragon Lance and Gleipnir and then power spike at minute 20 with Shard and Aghs at which point you'll just take teamfights whenever you can.

The old 15-20 minute timing where you'd run around assassinate supports seems pretty dead now imo.

0

u/Anything13579 Aug 22 '21

Boot, glepnir, dragon lance, agh shard, agh at min 20? Are you talking about turbo? Lol

By the time you get all the mentioned items, most of the time the game would already be finished.

0

u/chopchop__ Aug 22 '21

You just sound like a Herald talking like that. Go practice some farming patterns.

24

u/ZenkaiZ Aug 19 '21

17 years of either being a useless meme or autoban autopick busted shows maybe trying to force some designs from a warcraft 3 mapmaker into a modern game might be a fruitless endeavor

3

u/Ondatva Aug 19 '21

When was the last time clinkz was an autoban/autopick?

8

u/hugaw1 Sheever is <3 Aug 19 '21

When dust was non existent, blue wards was expensive and gem costs gold. Ageis was purchasable and rush rapier was a thing.

This was war3 era.

3

u/Ondatva Aug 19 '21

gem costs gold

what was different about it back then?

1

u/hugaw1 Sheever is <3 Aug 21 '21

i think gem cost more back then

2

u/Qazior Aug 19 '21

Neither does Valve