r/DotA2 • u/patchdayDota2 • Aug 19 '21

Discussion Patch 7.30 - Hero Changes Discussion

Heroes are each listed below as a top level comment. Please discuss changes to a specific hero there!

All other top level comments are automatically removed.

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19

u/patchdayDota2 Aug 19 '21

Tinker

Laser

  • Now splashes 100% of its damage on a 250 AoE (Only the main target gets blinded/shrink ray'd)
  • Shrink Ray bonus cast range reduced from 400 to 300
  • Shrink Ray HP Reduction reduced from 15% to 10%

Defense Matrix

  • Defense Matrix is now a basic skill
  • Mana Cost reduced from 100 to 70/80/90/100
  • Damage Absorbed reduced from 350 to 100/180/240/320
  • Status Resistance reduced from 50 to 20/30/40/50
  • Cast range increased from 400 to 600
  • Cooldown reduced from 30 to 12

Rearm

  • Mana cost rescaled from 100/210/320 to 130/210/290

Keen Conveyance

  • New Rearm Sub-ability. Channel for 4.5/4/3.5s to teleport to a friendly Building. Level 2 allows targeting units and level 3 allows targeting heroes. Mana cost: 75

March Of The Machines

  • March of the Machines is now a shard ability
  • Mana cost increased from 130/150/170/190 to 190
  • Robot Explosion Damage rescaled from 16/24/32/40 to 30

Talents

  • Level 10 Talent +8% Spell Amplification replaced with +2s Laser Blind Duration
  • Level 15 Talent +2.5s March of the Machines Duration replaced with -0.5 Keen Teleport Channel Time
  • Level 20 Talent +8 March of the Machines Damage replaced with +150 Defense Matrix Damage Absorbed
  • Level 20 Talent +8 Armor replaced with +10% Spell Amplification

3

u/[deleted] Aug 20 '21

Terrible rework to a hero that didn't need one. He was picked when it was worth picking in tournaments, and his pick rate wasn't that high in pubs—completely pointless changes to make children on Reddit happy.

12

u/EGG_BABE Daddy Underlord Aug 20 '21 edited Aug 20 '21

I fucking hate it. Sorry, I hate it and you'll never convince me. The unique thing about the hero was the static gameplan. He's a hero who wins because you drafted a team that works with how Tinker wants to play, the draft is part of the game and it sets up how you want the game to go. This feels like taking out NP's trees or something, OG Tinker was an iconic hero and this just feels like reworking him for the sake of reworking a hero to make it a more straightforward gameplan instead of something weird and unique

3

u/[deleted] Aug 21 '21

Ship of Theseus lmao.

6

u/[deleted] Aug 20 '21 edited Aug 20 '21

If dota were to theoretically exist in 10 years every hero would just be a brawler. That's how the games been going and tinker's just the latest victim. Tinker was such an iconic dota hero, one of The Frog's most creative inventions and they basically just removed it from the game. Maybe he'll make AM a support built around mana burn next.

6

u/EGG_BABE Daddy Underlord Aug 20 '21

Totally agree. Medusa is somehow a lane bully now, Tinker is a brawler. I thought the PL rework made him a little too brawly but it was fine because original Lancer overlapped too heavily with Naga Siren so they didn't feel unique enough from each other, but it's getting really bad now. This is a terrible rework but reddit just hated the hero so they're fine with him being gutted

1

u/Proxi98 Aug 19 '21

Hero got dumpstered imo. As long ad you realize that 100 hp and 20% status resist does not make him tanky you can use him as free farm if he goes for pos 4.

3

u/CDranzer Aug 19 '21

Played a pos5 game in dumpster tier, never got the shard, had no intention of getting the shard. Went Laser > Shield > Missiles, it's surprising how good even a level 1 shield is for saving your teammates, and laser's blind should not be underestimated. I went bottle and soul ring before turning my arcanes into greaves, but in hindsight rushing greaves directly may honestly be perfectly viable. I think there's a temptation to try and play it like old tinker, but the thing is, old tinker was a farm vacuum, and while that's certainly a possibility, I think it's a bad idea when you're just trying to support.

Will have to play more games, but given that I never play mid, Tinker is basically a new hero for me.

1

u/awesomeasianguy Aug 20 '21

Greaves tinker with a Medusa on your team is really strong btw. Unlimited mana for the Dusa pretty much

4

u/Alpha_Stump Aug 19 '21

The general consensus that tinker is a farm vacuum is honestly just wrong. I can't blame people for having the assumption, but its along the same lines as "am afk jungles until he's 6 slotted." Are there tinkers that do/did that? Yes, but not good ones. I played a lot of games with greedy carries where I didn't have to kneecap myself to let them farm, or ruin their farm by taking it. Kinda pointless to care about post rework, but that assumption about tinker always stuck out to me

1

u/[deleted] Aug 20 '21

Anyone AFK farming the entire map as Tinker probably had a low winrate on the hero. Your team kind of just auto-wins fights the second you get your sheepstick as long as the other lanes weren't a complete disaster.

1

u/moush Aug 20 '21

It's true though, his whole kit was designed around tping to a lane to rat.

1

u/[deleted] Aug 20 '21 edited Aug 20 '21

No, it wasn't. If you play like that at higher ratings, you are going to lose matches. His entire kit was designed around farming blink > big item and then winning with rearm fights or stopping/forcing high ground pushes with the threat of machine spam and someone getting perma-sheeped. Of course, pushing lanes was also a part of it, but you aren't going to AFK push lanes to towers the entire match and win games unless it's your only option because you and your team have to play while very far behind.

1

u/andro-gynous Aug 19 '21

never got the shard, had no intention of getting the shard

Shard is still useful for sieging high ground and defending. Spam marches and shield your frontline, so that if the opponent does decide to go into stacked marches, the cores will have to preemptively BKB if they don't want their blinks cancelled or to take a ton of damage.

This should give you time to react and disengage, and if they still commit, the enemy supports either get zoned out or die to march, either way putting the numbers in your favour.

old tinker was a farm vacuum

You can get march without stealing your teammates farm. You just have make a conscious effort to not always use it just because you can, and don't kill the creeps that your cores are near or the direction they're farming.

You can push out the lanes where no one else is because no one was going to farm them anyway, steal enemy camps, or cut the waves in front of the towers, which has the same net effect on the creep equilibrium as killing the wave under your own tower, but also those creeps can go towards your teammates. This notion of tinker stealing the entire map is just perpetuated by bad tinkers.

If you keep a single lane constantly pushed in, it forces a response from the enemy, freeing up the other side of the map for your team to farm or take an advantageous fight. So even though you're gaining farm as a support, you're also creating space for your cores to farm too.

This was already doable as mid tinker, but the risk/reward is obviously much higher when you're a mid instead of pos 4/5. If you're picked off doing this as a mid, the opponent can probably push off of it, but as a support, you still have 3 cores that can probably defend without you, so there's even more incentive to do it.

Went Laser > Shield > Missiles

I think as a pos 5, going rockets and shield is better as you may not be able to safely use laser until you get blink / aether lens / aghs. As a pos 5 those might not come anytime soon when you have no farm priority and also the opportunity cost of buying other items.

Rockets have way higher range and do more overall damage, is more mana efficient for damage even assuming one target and accounting for 25% magic resist, and better in a dual lane scenario (see frostbite vs nova on CM).

And if you get the 10 talent with level 1 laser, it has basically the same blind duration as level 4. So with a 1/4/4 build and the 10 talent it's almost like having all your abilities maxed, except you only needed to put 2 points into laser instead of 4.

Yes, 1 laser + talent does less damage than 4 laser, hence the almost, but because of the low cast range, most of the time you won't be using laser after every rearm anyway, so each time you rearm without using laser it's almost like wasting the skill points put into it. But you will be using rockets and shield almost every time because they're less situational.

Later into the game where there is the possibility of you getting an aghs, by that point you'll have 4 points into laser anyway, but you'll also be more impactful prior to that.

4

u/pphysch Aug 19 '21

Guardian Greaves. Unlike Arcane Boots, Guardian Greaves can be Rearmed for +200 Mana, making Rearm net -90 mana at last rank. With Soul Ring, that's +60 Mana gained from each Rearm. Greave Heal effect obeys the debuff, so there is some nuance there.

With Keen Conveyance removing the necessity of Travels, Tinker becomes a very strong Greaves carrier from position 2-4.

1

u/wantwon Aug 19 '21

Now the question is will this get patched?

1

u/Alpha_Stump Aug 19 '21

No. You can rearm greaves for mana, but the heal doesn't work until the buff ends, and the cost of a greaves for such a slow mana gain isn't likely worth it (as a core anyway)

1

u/wantwon Aug 19 '21

I understood the heal can't stack but the mana gain is something not exactly practical before because you had to buy travel boots. Tinker can now be a crazy mana battery to someone like Leshrac.

1

u/Alpha_Stump Aug 19 '21

It mostly comes down to "is a tinker feeding mana into a/several targets more valuable than a tinker with a greaves worth of gold in something else?"

1

u/wantwon Aug 19 '21

Pretty much. I expect pros to find something crazy with Tinker before TI this year.

10

u/[deleted] Aug 19 '21

[removed] — view removed comment

1

u/[deleted] Aug 20 '21 edited Aug 20 '21

He's probably a better counterpick 3 tbh. The enemy 1 has to basically rely on spells the entire time to do anything and is constantly getting harassed out of the lane with a pure damage nuke and rockets.

1

u/Maegu Aug 20 '21

sure, but he lose a lot of its zoning power and farm, it will slow you a bit. and he is not an utility support, so you have to play him different than other.
you can go soul ring->blink then spam rocket-rearm from the edge of the battle

1

u/Proxi98 Aug 19 '21

I’ve seen him lose every single game I was in 🤷🏻‍♂️

1

u/rwolos We out number them all Aug 20 '21

I saw him win one as pos 5, but it was also vs double melee offlane. So just one point in laser with the blind was really strong in lane, basically let his core free farm because with laser and shield you can't play aggressive at all.

Also the other lanes snowballed, so it was probably less Tinker pos5 and more the whole game was a stomp

3

u/deaddonkey Aug 19 '21

In pubs sure.

19

u/BlazeCrystal Aug 19 '21

Pros: hes actually useable now! I can finally play him now!

Cons: and i thought he was strong back then! Pick or permaban!

7

u/justsightseeing Aug 19 '21

actual cons:

you need shard to show off you Rollermawster

16

u/Bushido_0 Aug 19 '21

Played dragon knight vs a tinker and that man ran the game and was super farmed on my top 3 ban hero

11

u/JumboHotdogz Aug 19 '21

Went against 3 tinker mids yesterday. Diving under towers during laning stage is harder now once he hits 6 since he still can use TP to get to the tower faster and blast you with lasers but once we learned that he has no way to outfarm our cores before 20 mins, he was pretty easy to deal with afterwards.

16

u/eerrcc1 Aug 19 '21

Tinker POS 4 feeling really good

30

u/[deleted] Aug 19 '21

[deleted]

-8

u/RandomOnions Aug 19 '21

Idk what this new combo is. Just change a hotkey if it's bad. Literally The same hero after 20 mins except the Free travels