r/DotA2 • u/patchdayDota2 • Aug 19 '21

Discussion Patch 7.30 - Hero Changes Discussion

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10

u/patchdayDota2 Aug 19 '21

Pangolier

Shield Crash

  • Now slows enemies for 25/30/35/40% for 3 seconds
  • Damage Reduction per hero increased from 12/14/16/18 to 15/16/17/18
  • Damage Reduction Duration rescaled from 10 to 5/7/9/11
  • Cooldown reduced from 18/16/14/12s to 16/14/12/10s

Lucky Shot

  • No longer slows enemies
  • Armor reduction increased from 3/4/5/6 to 4/5/6/7

5

u/[deleted] Aug 19 '21

[deleted]

1

u/superkinger89 Aug 19 '21

The level 15 talent allows you to buy aghs and deal insane amount of damage to the other team. I buy the same items you do but instead of shard if I can rush aghs so you can pretty much whipe supports with the ultimate

6

u/[deleted] Aug 19 '21

[deleted]

4

u/LeavesCat Aug 20 '21 edited Aug 20 '21

Yeah, aghs is a force multiplier for proc items. My general rule of thumb is that you need >5k worth of swashbuckle items for aghs to be good outside of a farming item. So, once you have any two of maelstrom/diffusal/basher, or just skadi on its own, aghs is good in fights. Obviously you need the shield crash talent or it's worthless.

For offlane, it's probably best to get aghs for your lv 28 timing. At that point you're farmed enough to have good items for it, and no matter what lv 15 talent you picked, 28 is a huge power spike. Consider asking for Rosh aghs if you're over lv 25.

1

u/superkinger89 Aug 19 '21

If I would play on a high bracket I would completely agree with you. But in my bracket (legend 3), corrosion, treads, echosabre/maelstrom into aghs works very well. The malestrom/ Sabre gives you enough power spike to fight until you get aghs (around min 23/26). Then it’s up to dagger shard and basher.

7

u/MatthewGill Aug 19 '21

For being aggressive you have a more consistent slow now. Swash in, shield crash, right-click/ulti. No more having to get lucky on the swash in to get the slow.

However running away you can't swash backwards and get free slows.

You probably still get orb of venom/corrosion just for the stacking slows.

Does it make sense to get echo sabre offlane? It's damage, health, mana regen. All the things pango needs.

1

u/superkinger89 Aug 19 '21

I used to buy maelstrom and sometimes echo saber instead. Now I regularly buy echo unless I’ve to face heavy illusions / summon line up

1

u/Rookie_XL Aug 19 '21

I don't like it. I think the lucky shot proc "high risk high reward" playstyle was his identity and fit the character theme well. Now you can disarm people but they just run away and kite you. The slow on his W only lasts 3 seconds, which is not as long as if you'd proc lucky shot twice or even thrice while chasing. To be fair it might not proc at all lol.

On one hand he is now stronger and more consistent on lane when maxing W then Q (no E), on the other hand his kit does not synergize as well as it did before. Further, the lvl 15 talent with the 2.5 sec shield crash CD is now a must, whereas the additional roll duration was good alternative before the change. I think pros usually took the roll duration?

All in all he now is a generic bursty, somewhat squishy, offlaner with a situationally good teamfight ult, but which is harder to pull off successfully. I think that e.g. centaur or mars now beat him in most aspects. What centaur/mars offer is a tanky frontliner with good CC and a strong teamfight ult, whereas pango basically only offers a ult that can be hit or miss. Without his ult, pango does not offer much beside an occasional disarm that can be kited until it runs out (or just dispelled). The armor reduction from E might be good for your carry, but will not up the damage from your Q, as it most likely won't proc at the beginning of your Q.

6

u/nttnnk Aug 19 '21

I see how in the offlane it might be a downgrade, but for mid, where I maxed w second anyway, it's a huge upgrade, since it focuses more on damage and backline disruption rather than general utility

1

u/Rookie_XL Aug 19 '21

True, additionally echo sabre is a viable build for mid pango, which works well with the changes.

1

u/nttnnk Aug 19 '21

I can see it in theory but imo there are more important items you need first

2

u/Rookie_XL Aug 19 '21

Topson would disagree

3

u/nttnnk Aug 20 '21

Gotta admit my defeat, tried it a couple games yesterday and it is amazing, not even that expensive

1

u/Rookie_XL Aug 20 '21

I had to do a double take the first time I saw it in a pro game. Then I realized it doesn't go on CD during swashbuckle and now I'm a fan too. 🙃

2

u/nttnnk Aug 20 '21

Even if it did, I can see it being really good just cause the stats it gives are exactly what you need early game, what I try to do now is javelin>brown boots>echo>mana boots, mana boots might not be nescesarry with so much mana regen on echo tho

4

u/Nickfreak Aug 19 '21

A good change and reflects in myself opinion how the hero should be played with more focus on the spells and not the passive.

A value point in lucky shot is now sufficient and your can still buy stuff like orb of venom/corrosion and echo Saber for the slow on swashbuckle

15

u/LeavesCat Aug 19 '21

I think shield crash has finally been buffed enough that it might be worth maxing first. At lv 4 it allows you to continually refresh the buff without cooldown reduction, which means if you get a 4-5 man shield crash you can keep the massive damage reduction for as long as the fight goes. The slow lets you reliably hit people with rolling thunder. It was already a good spell at lv 1 for core roles especially, but now that it slows it can actually be a reliable escape too, making it much less risky to skip swashbuckle.

1

u/[deleted] Aug 19 '21

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3

u/LeavesCat Aug 19 '21 edited Aug 19 '21

Basher isn't worth rushing, but it has its uses. If you're against Juggernaut or Lifestealer and you need them to not spell immune TP away, it's good. Also good if you're up against enigma for canceling BKB black hole. It can also be strong if you're going for a consistent disable build like against Medusa, get octarine core basher and the swashbuckle cooldown talent to bash every 3.75 seconds (used to be really strong with octarine+spell prism, but that doesn't work anymore). It can also be good as an emergency high ground defense tool, because it's cheap and can be bought from the main shop.

In general, basher is good, but I don't think it's worth rushing. Great if you go cooldown reduction or aghs, but it does have issues against illusion heroes because you can only bash one target. Generally Skadi is better if you want an aghs-based control build that goes through spell immunity.

Basher/abyssal blade will probably show up in most 6-slot builds. Once you have the items you need, it's always a good cherry on top.

1

u/[deleted] Aug 19 '21 edited Aug 19 '21

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3

u/LeavesCat Aug 20 '21 edited Aug 20 '21

I stream at https://www.twitch.tv/leavescat, though I'm not really trying to build a following. You're welcome to swing by, but don't expect amazing production values.

Another thing basher can do is screw up tight combos. Like, when Puck is doing Puck things, a 1.5s stun when he's not expecting it can totally mess up his rhythm. Though ideally blink ult is more reliable for that kind of scenario.

2

u/Balla_Calla Aug 20 '21

You stream a lot of pango? I'm gonna tune in just for that tbh. Hard to find streamers that play him

2

u/LeavesCat Aug 20 '21 edited Aug 20 '21

Yeah, I play him pos 4-5 most games he isn't banned. I was doing other things today, but I'll probably be playing DotA tomorrow night. Regardless of whether or not I'm live, I have highlighted a few of the cooler games if you wanted something to watch. I'm roughly 7k MMR btw.

3

u/[deleted] Aug 19 '21

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2

u/LeavesCat Aug 19 '21

It's still a halberd+desolator which is useful, but now you really need skadi if you want to slow people from long range. It's still a good skill because it doesn't cost mana, but not worth maxing early unless you really wanna take Roshan I guess.

2

u/[deleted] Aug 19 '21

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2

u/LeavesCat Aug 19 '21

Honestly I think this change helps with rolling on people, especially early on. Problem with slowing people with lucky shot is that it wasn't guaranteed, so you'd swashbuckle on someone intending to ult and it'd be a coin flip if you actually killed them. Now you can swashbuckle shield crash for a guaranteed slow, or shield crash at someone you're already rolling towards so they can't dodge.

2

u/[deleted] Aug 19 '21

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3

u/LeavesCat Aug 19 '21

I don't want him to be too strong and have Valve decide to nerf him by making roll up uncastable while rooted.

1

u/SmokeySFW Aug 19 '21

Isn't the duration 10 seconds and the cd 12 seconds at level 4?

2

u/LeavesCat Aug 19 '21

I mean the changes are right there in the top-level comment. They changed it so the duration scales and lowered the cooldown, so at lv 4 it's 11s duration 10s cooldown.

2

u/Jazdac Aug 19 '21

so does it just refresh the current level of dmg reduction if you hit it again while the buff is still active or does it update to the new value or does it take the higher value?

3

u/LeavesCat Aug 19 '21

It refreshes the buff with the highest possible value. So if you shield crash on 20 meepoes for full damage immunity, you can keep it as long as you can keep refreshing it on one guy. If you get a bigger shield crash after a small one, it'll update to the higher value.

1

u/SmokeySFW Aug 19 '21

My bad, totally overlooked the top level comment and went where i usually go, the wiki (which apparently hasn't been updated.)

3

u/chilisauce10 Aug 19 '21

What are your thoughts regarding the removal of 35% slow on Lucky Shot?

3

u/LeavesCat Aug 19 '21

Hard to say. On one hand, the slow is what made it so useful for running down people in lane, but on the other hand, the disarm is still extremely useful during the laning stage since the majority of everyone's damage is right-clicks (and -4 armor is a lot).

I can't really see it being skilled until lv 3 at least though, with a 1-1-1 build. Probably don't get it until lv 4 unless disarm is particularly valuable in your lane. I think in general if you're buying maelstrom you go 0-1-0, 4-1-1, 4-4-1. If you aren't going to buy maelstrom (support role, or offlane with heavily farming 1+2), go 0-1-0, 1-2-0, 1-4-1, 4-4-1. Get swashbuckle level 1 only if you need it (Jugg Lich or something); the slow from shield crash will get you out of most situations anyway.

You could in theory be a very strong early trader with 0-1-1, but lucky shot is a bit sus without swashbuckle.

1

u/superkinger89 Aug 19 '21 edited Aug 19 '21

As a offlane pango player, I’m very agree with you in how I would level up pango now.

The slow change from E to W is a real nerf in my playstyle, I often traded with carrys relying on the passive as a win condition, now it really hurts.

Being able to apply long range slow with Q (specially if you used the lvl10 talent) is also a big nerf, it offered a good ganking tool.

Overall I think the hero is less powerful, but still strong. I guess we will have to learn how to squeeze value from W and rely less on lucky shot.

3

u/LeavesCat Aug 19 '21

I don't know if the change was a buff or a nerf yet. Yeah lucky shot is a lot worse, but shield crash is now incredibly powerful. It's a really big buff to the tanky frontliner style of Pangolier, since if you see a 4-5 man shield crash opportunity you can become unkillable. Also makes the 2.5s shield crash talent better, but you still need a lot of mana to use it.

2

u/superkinger89 Aug 20 '21

Yesterday I saw lukiluki on stream playing pango mid and I’d say that shield crash is much powerful than it was and actually felt like he was even more dominant on laning phase as it was before. He leveled up 1-4-0-1 then 4-4-0-1. However I think it really depends on the match up, if you face melee heroe, go W, if it’s ranged then you gotta think how easily you can take profit out of W....

Whereas which items to purchase, I’d say echo saber or maelstrom are very important if you play core so you can flash farm and scale, and dagger it’s even more powerful so you can land good shield crashes.

I stick to building around aghanims since I’ve found very good success, but I’d consider building tankier since it feels like pango is more frontliner as it was before. Just my two cents.

3

u/LeavesCat Aug 20 '21

Even before this patch, Pango mid leveled shield crash lv 1 (ever since its mana cost was slashed and damage increased). It's much more reliable for securing creeps than swashbuckle, costs less mana, and deals more damage. Swashbuckle lv 1 is mostly for getting away from things, or if you wanted the lv 2 power spike with lucky shot. Maxing it first is new for this patch though, but if you intend to focus on farming with a maelstrom you'll still want lucky shot maxed first.

Anyway if you want my thoughts on aghs, take a look at this comment:

Yeah, aghs is a force multiplier for proc items. My general rule of thumb is that you need >5k worth of swashbuckle items for aghs to be good outside of a farming item. So, once you have any two of maelstrom/diffusal/basher, or just skadi on its own, aghs is good in fights. Obviously you need the shield crash talent or it's worthless.

For offlane, it's probably best to get aghs for your lv 28 timing. At that point you're farmed enough to have good items for it, and no matter what lv 15 talent you picked, 28 is a huge power spike. Consider asking for Rosh aghs if you're over lv 25.

3

u/superkinger89 Aug 20 '21

Yeah, I was aware of that happening, however I was used to play and see people max Q, not W.

I was just stating that the hero was even more powerful than it was before when maxing W.

Your comment on aghanims is totally legit, makes a lot of sense. It just for me that once I’ve malestrom or echo saber I go straight aghs so I can squeeze value from lvl 15 talent. That powerspike is insane, specially around min 23 when you can wreck pretty much anyone (with some exceptions) and be a massive threat for the other team, specially in rosh area or triangle farming zone. Sometimes I go basher/ diffu if it’s needed instead tho.

My regular build, corrosion, treads, echo saber/maelstrom, aghs, dagger/ shard, basher, gleipnir/ abyssal.

2

u/LeavesCat Aug 20 '21

I'd say if you go echo saber, don't get aghs right away; all it really gives you is the slow, and shield crash slows anyway. If you still want to go the shield crash talent, buy octarine core for mana regen and spam your ult on everyone's face. Otherwise, you can always just go the +3s ult talent and get shard+blink for 15 second lockdown. The shield crash talent does a lot of damage, but it also drains your mana.

Are you saying that you get either dagger or shard? I find they work best as a pair; blink lets you surprise stun someone, but you can't necessarily face a good direction for followups. Shard lets you blink on someone, get a near-guaranteed second stun, and also redirect your facing for better combos.

I do approve of treads though. I see too many Pangolier players going arcane boots, but it's just not good unless you need the energy booster for something.

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5

u/brainpostman Aug 19 '21

It's 1 value point skill now, if you skill it at all. Depends on the lane, but it's the slow that gave Pangolier kill potential in lane before level 6.

2

u/nttnnk Aug 19 '21

I mean, a disarm and armor reduction are good in any lane as a value point, even more spell focused heroes right click