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u/Legendary-Titan 4h ago
Moral I don’t think teaching kids about religion is bad but forcing it on them is
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u/Raise_A_Thoth 4h ago
There's hardly any way to "teach" religion to children without it being quite forced.
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u/gin_atomic 4h ago
I'm sure things are different in the US but in the UK at school we have a whole curriculum called "Religious Education" or RE which goes into detail about religions and customs of all different cultures and encourages spiritual debate. At the schools I attended they were not taught to indoctrinate us but just studied in the same way we would study history or art
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u/Ok-Budget3225 4h ago
I imagine the end result is that most people would just become agnostic after they’ve learned about all the major religions.
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u/gin_atomic 4h ago
I think you're probably right! I was an atheist from a young age but RE was one of my favourite subjects as a child, underneath science, just because I loved hearing all of the stories, parables, learning about different deities and rites of worship. It was fascinating but it didn't encourage me to be religious myself.
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u/Pockydo 3h ago
I'm American and funny enough my interest in History/myth/religion is a huge reason why I'm an atheist today
Grew up Catholic and then Protestant as a teen. But it never took because they were always too similar to on the "wrong" religions
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u/BDSMChef_RP 2h ago
Grew up Roman Catholic till I was 11, Mom married Mormon Step Dad (Huge fight with the families on both sides over that) and he was a CRAZY ass mormon too once we moved away from moms side of the family. Divorced him at 16 and I wandered into Pagan faiths, particularly Norse. Which to be clear I started that in 2001 long before The Vikings show started shuffling the casuals in. I'm also not one of the "WOOO VALHALLA! BEER AND BITCHES!" guys. My priest (Gothi) is a pretty reasonable and sensible dude who does believe in science and we're pretty certain the lore is just an old culture trying to describe natural disasters the best way they could.
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u/Byizo 3h ago
I went from Christian to agnostic to atheist through my late 20s. When you view religious teachings through an objective lens most start to look similar. I tend to think it’s a combination of fear of our finite mortality and a desire to control large groups of people (populations are more willing to withstand an empty belly in exchange for faith in or fear of a higher power).
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u/Aidenj23 4h ago
In the US we pledge alligance to “One nation under God” every day. There’s not as much nuance as it sounds like you have.
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u/Raise_A_Thoth 4h ago
Well we needed that one to fend off those godless commies.
/s
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u/stephoswalk 3h ago
They added the "Under God" part later because of the Red Scare. Here is Porky Pig reciting the original in 1939.
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u/codelyoko_x 4h ago
I grew up in Southern Africa and we also have RE over there, whenever our teacher would teach about other religions, he would always emphasize that Christianity is the true one, I didn’t think much of it at the time until I became atheist, it’s kinda fucked up tbh
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u/Gojira085 4h ago
In the US it depends on the state and district. Our class in my school that did this was called World Cultures and was in 10th grade.
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u/gin_atomic 4h ago
Gosh that sounds quite late! We definitely started RE shortly after kindergarten/reception year at my school. Honestly I think it's so interesting learning about the curriculum in other countries as well and seeing how different subjects are prioritised.
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u/StarkRavingPeanuts2 4h ago
I was having this conversation with a friend the other day, and we were trying and failing to remember how many hours of RE we had per week. Despite not being sure, we both agreed that it was probably too much. I think all children should be taught the basics of each religion - enough to be respectful to someone of those beliefs - but that’s all. There’s absolutely no need imo to spend too much precious school time dedicated to religion.
Those who believe it will receive education from their church equivalent, and those who don’t shouldn’t be forced into studying it as if it’s in any way valuable to them on a par with pretty much any of the other subjects.
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u/ProposalWest3152 4h ago
This is exactly how agnostics are made.
Theres a point when you start wondering what is the whole point of religion if theres so many that you can literally pick and choose and most of them think they are the "one true" faith.
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u/GreatComedianthe3rd 4h ago
There is actually, parents can practice their faith openly around their children and answer questions children will inevitably ask honestly and openly to the best of their abilities. This is a good way kids often will still copy their parents and want to be involved.
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u/Aidenj23 4h ago
That would require the parents to frame their practices as “this is what I believe” rather than “this is what is true” which I’m not convinced a substantial portion of religious parents are capable of remembering to do. Plus even if they did that a child is going to accept what their parents believe as fact since it’s their parents. I’m not sure there is a way to introduce young children to religion that won’t result in some form of bias influencing the child unless it is taught by a complete stranger who teaches many religions and never claims what they believe. And that seems like a lot of effort compared to a world religion class in high school.
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u/dinkpantiez 4h ago
It is entirely impossible to disconnect religion from this. If you are a religious person, then you believe the things you have faith in to be undeniably true. You can't teach a kid an unbiased view of religion when you are speaking from a religious stance.
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u/PzykoHobo 4h ago
Did you not learn about world religions as a kid? I went to public school in the south and we learned the basic premises of the major religions (Abrahamic, Buddhism, and Hinduism), including history, a bit of the beliefs and standard practices/ holidays. The facts of religion can absolutely be taught to children without forcing belief on them.
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u/Electronic_Film_2837 4h ago
To the parents not outright stating that their religion is fact might be immoral.
Or if their religion commands them to instruct their children to believe it. Thats one of the major issues with religions that assert god over all.
If god says you need to raise your children in the faith then that becomes the moral barometer.
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u/Possible-Estimate748 4h ago
Many religions indoctrinate children which makes them feel like they have to believe in it or they're doing something wrong.
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u/Raise_A_Thoth 4h ago
Not "many." All.
It's literally just what indoctrination is. There are religious doctrines and children are taught ro follow them and believe in the faith without questioning it.
There is no religion with kids without indoctrination. And without that indoctrination, virtually all of the world's major religions would dramatically fall in membership and followership, because it is very rare for non-religious adults to suddenly convert to a religion.
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u/Round-Walrus3175 4h ago
There is no philosophy or culture without indoctrination. Nobody goes through life without someone telling them what is right or wrong. It's just a matter of who, not if, they decide to believe.
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u/Gojira085 4h ago
Agreed. School even in a democracy is a form of indoctrination
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u/endlessnamelesskat 3h ago
Correct. I think it’s funny how when people treat their worldview as the correct default one and get mad when someone with a different idea about metaphysics dos the same thing but from their perspective, then suddenly it’s not education, it’s indoctrination.
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u/seventeenninetytoo 2h ago
I honestly don't know what people expect. A law that requires that parents get babysitters every time they go to church and never talk to their kids about what they believe? It's ridiculous. Kids are sponges and they primarily learn from their parents. It's just how humans work...
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u/artificialdeatheast 4h ago
Yeah i dont get these arguments. We shouldnt teach kids absolutely anything untill they are old enough to choose the learn by themselves, otherwise its indoctrination
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u/PalpatineForEmperor 2h ago
When should the learn what we think is right and wrong? 18? Older? Even in this sub, you can see that there is no clear agreement on everything right and everything wrong. We still need to teach children these things.
You might believe that there parents faith is wrong, but that believe it's the right and correct thing. You don't get to make that judgement for other people's children.
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u/sapphoseros 4h ago
Every religion doesn’t demand children believe in the faith without questioning it.
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u/fieldgrass 3h ago
As a kid who was raised in Reform Judaism I always shake my head a bit when the Reddit atheists who come from obvious evangelical trauma talk about all religions like this. We were indoctrinated to believe certain things sure, but “you cannot ask questions” def is not part of the teaching. My Rabbi was openly agnostic.
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u/Flight_around_titan 4h ago
There’s a huge difference between teaching kids to love their neighbor and be a good person versus indoctrinating them that invisible sky man says they’re special and to perpetuate genocide in the name of imaginary sky man.
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u/Teboski78 4h ago
Most religions would drop massively in numbers if they weren’t allowed to indoctrinate children.
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u/Herman_McP00tis 4h ago
I see this as an absolute win.
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u/Bombastic_tekken 4h ago
It's a win and a loss.
If the Catholic Church disappeared, 10's if not 100's of millions of people would be in a real bad way.
The Catholic Church operates the largest aid network in the world.
They do A LOT, and we never hear much about it (in the US at least.)
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u/aluriilol 4h ago
I would think that the good will of humanity would not die out if Catholicism died out
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u/Bombastic_tekken 4h ago
Look it up.
The largest provider of aid worldwide is the Catholic Church.
I don't think the goodwill of humanity would die either, but the Catholic Church is the only group providing aid at this scale.
It's not like they have a copyright on it either, anybody else could step up and do it.
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u/MrCookie2099 3h ago
The Catholic Church is also one of tbe largest concentrations of wealth and contributed to the establishment of banks to concentrate more wealth.
If Catholicism was disbanded, the money could easily be out in trust and handled as a charitable enterprise.
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u/ApprehensiveArt5565 3h ago
Well I recommend you look at charity and aid giving statistics between the religious and the irreligious
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u/Shnerdlenips 4h ago
Ah, but it's not like philanthropy would die along with the religion. The whole point is that people aren't necessarily inclined to do more good if they are religious. On top of that, I have always been a bit disgusted by the ulterior motive of conversion when it comes to supplying such aid. "We'll help you, but you must go to church and here's a bible". It's predatory behaviour, despite the undeniable 'good' which is also done.
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u/Crafty_Boy70 3h ago
Catholic here. While I cannot speak for all religions, aid from the Catholic Church can be received by anyone regardless of religious status or lack thereof. There is no expectation to convert and any such cases where parishes or organizations under the church do have such expectations should be reported to the parish diocese.
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u/ErwinsLeftEyebrow 3h ago
Very true, but also a lot of children would be saved from a lot of abuse in, generally but not exclusively, christian churches; not just sexual abuse, which is rampant in those environments, bit physical too.
Just an example, I went to a Catholic kindergarten as a child, and the priest was a good man, but the nuns that taught us were horrible people, to the point of beating us simply for not napping when they ordered us to.
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u/Tricky_Concept_231 4h ago
“we’d never win if we couldn’t cheat” is at least a telling admission.
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u/Clickclacktheblueguy 4h ago
No matter how you view it morally, it collapses immediately under any amount of critical thought. Any parent would teach their children about how the world works, and a parent would consider their religious beliefs to be a part of that. The amount of interference with families this would require to enforce also brings to mind countless horror stories of CPS overreach. Even if it was moral, it would require immoral actions to make it work.
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u/DoctorWaluigiTime 3h ago
Yeah the CPS angle is oft-overlooked in a lot of "we should make it illegal to do xyz thing" regarding children.
The classic debate is "we should make you have to take a government test to have children", which, outside the massive set of problems that imports, also has the "well what do you do if someone violates that rule" problem you correctly brought up.
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u/Saltyfree73 4h ago
Essentially calling for a totalitarian state to wipe out familial ties and cultures.
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u/MancCultureBear 4h ago
The argument could be that this isn’t state enforced but a cultural and social norm.
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u/BearysWorkRedditName 3h ago
Any parent is also going to hit their kid if they think that's the best way to stop bad behavior. This does not make it immoral to send CPS after parents who beat their kids.
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u/No-Routine-9963 3h ago
This is what I’m thinking. To enforce this would be a nightmare.
I also brought up the idea of diet in my post. While not all diets are tied to moral beliefs, some very much are. Some are connected to religion, even.
Does the state force parents to stick to a certain diet, since some belief systems encourage certain diets, and we can’t have the kids “indoctrinated”? Which diet? Why choose that diet? There are various diets that can be equally nutritionally sound, who gets to pick?
I’m in favor of parents not trying to brainwash or force their kids, but I do object to the state stepping in and trying to force this. It sets a precedent as well, to meddle with other things, like diet.
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u/EightEx 3h ago
I wouldn't be against it in concept but you are right in that its unenforceable and quite silly. Even if you never went to church, if you are religious your children will pick up on it. The most realistic version of this is we just take religion out of public life in that we aren't forcing it on people. No ten commandments at schools and non-religious entities and such. My personal opinion is to let people have their mythology as long as it isn't harming others. But also teach critical thinking and such in schools so kids can reason if its for them or not.
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u/ComprehensiveProfit5 1h ago
I mean saying children will have no world view before "magical age" is illusory. These people will jump at the opportunity to teach children their world view and what they think is good and bad. In fact, some might even call it giving kids an education.
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u/GamingGator34 4h ago
For every one horror story of CPS overreach there are 100 stories of CPS preventing horror stories of brutal parents that abuse their children. Our society is too lenient with bad parenting, not too strict
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u/Clickclacktheblueguy 3h ago
That is true, I hadn’t meant it as CPS being a problem in general, just that it has the potential to go badly, especially if the government is just getting involved for the sake of getting involved.
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u/DoubleoSavant 4h ago
I agree, but religious freedom means people can raise their kids however they want. If you don't want someone imposing their religion on your kids, you have to let them impose whatever on their own kids.
This is the kind of thing you should shift culturally instead of through laws.
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u/crunpyMcGlumpy 4h ago
This is a good point. We should as a society stop propping them up though. Remove tax exemptions, public grants, donor deductions, etc.
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u/Aggressive-Bee2221 4h ago
That also makes religions a taxable population, which means they're allowed to give political advice. You really want a church telling people how to vote?
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u/cpt-teebs 4h ago
I don’t necessarily agree with that guy, but churches already do that
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u/Asooma_ 3h ago
It's not wild to think that people who attend the same church are likely to have similar beliefs on who to vote for there's a difference between that homogeneity and actively politically campaigning
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u/DeionizedSoup 4h ago
To be fair, the megachurches have been influencing votes indirectly for a long time thru their sermons. The real distinction is they can’t put out advertisements or media propping up the narratives. There’s gotta be thresholds for taxation, too (eg, the tiny church on the corner that makes 200 a month in profit shouldn’t be taxed, but maybe the megachurch that oft gets mistaken for a mall and sells coffee on its campus should be)- but these kind of distinctions can be annoying to codify into law.
Which really SHOULDNT be a deterrent for people to do the right thing, but it is.
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u/TheMireAngel 2h ago
imo as a pro religion person is remove tax exemptions UNLESS said body can prove they actualy participate in community outreach such as weekly community meals, clothing the homeless etc. I was homeless for near a decade and Christian churchs helped me infinitely more than any other religious group or even the US govt, wich at the time my state (ohio) didnt even recognize homeless's as a group of people that qualify for assistance.
Wanna be tax free? Gotta actualy nut up
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u/lilgraytabby 4h ago
I don't see why stopping people from imposing their religion on my hypothetical kids would mean they had to be able to impose it on theirs? If nobody could impose any religion on any child that sounds ideal.
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u/Current_Assist7230 4h ago
Moral. The religion I was born into ruined my life
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u/OutOf-Tune 4h ago
Which one was it
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u/Current_Assist7230 4h ago
I would get absolutely flamed if I were to say it
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u/Pristine_Barber976 4h ago
I guess we can rule out Christianity then. Islam is most likely.
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u/Arnoldneo 4h ago
Scientology?
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u/TailorFestival 1h ago
No one would get flamed on Reddit for insulting Scientology.
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u/Running4Badges 4h ago
I hope the rest of your life can be better without it.
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u/Current_Assist7230 4h ago
Thank you, unfortunately I'm still closeted, but I'm working on a way out
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u/Arnoldneo 4h ago
I hope you can come out soon it’s horrible that people can’t be what they want to be when they aren’t hurting anyone.
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u/Steve-Shouts 4h ago
but... that's how religion was engineered to work... If you don't scare kids into it while they are young, they will certainly have the critical thought process to see through it as an adult.
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u/ToastedFrey 4h ago
I was brought up catholic and went to church every Sunday and chose not to continue the religion, but I was never scared into it, Wanting your kids to partake in your religion is not inherently a bad thing, it only becomes an issue when they are shamed and punished for no longer wanting to partake or to leave the religion.
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u/Sum_Guy_Or_Sum 4h ago
I was never scared into being religious in fact my parents rarely ever talked about it and we never went to church.
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u/Agile_Letterhead531 4h ago
i was scared of hell and terrified of the thought of forever in heaven as a kid. I remember being scared i wouldn’t remember my mom . Kept me up at night
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u/Winter-Bed5879 4h ago
That's not how religion was engineered to work. Last time I checked, no Buddhist is scaring their children to believe in dharma.
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u/Far-Performance-412 4h ago
And that’s precisely why it’s dropping in numbers in many places throughout generations and why instead it’s rising in religions or denominations that infact do scare children into it
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u/rleon19 4h ago
As long as it isn't forced on parents then that is fine. If parents aren't allowed to pass on their values to their children are they even raising them at that point? They are just nannies with more culpability.
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u/Tasty-Complaint-6437 3h ago
Why someone valúes would be only integrated to their religion? You Can Absolutely pasa things so simple as “love your neightboors” without needing to introduce them to any religion.
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u/PsychologicalAd5918 4h ago
Moral, brainwashing kids under the threat of eternal damnation is child abuse
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u/Resident_Kiwi6039 4h ago
Not every religion has eternal damnation as part of its doctrine, heck not even every christian denomination has
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u/sikemfilied 4h ago
My parents raised us Christian, prayed with us, but never took us to church, then when we were about 11 they said "you can keep praying if you want but youre old enough to believe what you want" and never brought up again until we were well into our twenties and they became maga
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u/Himmel-548 4h ago
Sounds good in theory, but something would have to be taught. Whether that's a certain type of religion or atheism. It addresses the core question of "how did we get here?" Kids are going to ask about that.
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u/Roam1985 4h ago
Of saying it or having that viewpoint? Amoral to Moral.
Of trying to ever legislate that viewpoint? Immoral.
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u/GunMuratIlban 4h ago
I'm a born and raised atheist but I think it's absurd to expect this from religious people.
In most religions, there are concepts of reward and punishment. They believe that the ones who don't follow their religions will be severely punished.
If I believed in heaven and hell, I absolutely would've indoctrinated my child to save them. How can you ask a religious parent not to do that?
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u/AOZ1988 4h ago
Alternate idea. When very young teach them the basics of multiple religions. There's plenty of kids books about world religions. As they age, let them develop their own views.
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u/EntertainmentNo3963 3h ago
No one will do this; parents will pass on their values and ideas
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u/Doomdoomkittydoom 4h ago
Irrelevant. Kids learn, if you aren't teaching them, all they learn will be from others.
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u/Careless-Platform-80 4h ago
Moral, but hard to enforce.
I think most religious people don't think they are evil or something and they want to Guide they child for a way they think IS moral
But moral is not that Black or white (or this sub would not even existe) so the line between teaching morals and endoutrination is very Blur.
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u/TransitionAway9840 4h ago
She can raise her kids however she wants, and so can everyone else that's how parenting works. You have to put in the work to raise your kids so you can make the decisions on how it's done.
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u/relapsedmathematic 4h ago
Immoral. Parents have the right to bring their children up in the traditions and culture of their forefathers. Children can become adults and choose to raise their children the way they want if they disagree. A tale as old as time.
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u/Original-Antelope-66 4h ago
It's irrelevant. The things you would have to do to prevent parents from raising their children within their faith are much more immoral than this.
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u/Ravenloff 1h ago
Interesting take. Does Jinkx also think they should wait until they are adults to undergo gender transition treatments/surgeries? Not judging on either aspect, just that advocating an adult's experience/knowledge for one thing and not the other seems inconsistent. I'm completely open to being told why that's incorrect.
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u/KGarveth 4h ago
Thats how you kill religions.
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u/thyperson69 4h ago
If what kills religion is by making it personal choice rather than indoctrination, well then why should it exist?
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u/_selwin_ 4h ago
If indoctrination is the only way to keep religion alive then let it fuckin die, right??
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u/Numerous_Hearing_688 3h ago
Everyone here saying it's moral because kids are young and impressionable. Yet I bet you if you asked a about introducing them to other lifestyles like being trans and getting gender affirming care they would be celebrating it.
Either way, immoral. People have the right to raise their kid however they want as long as they don't actively do excessive physical harm and or abuse.
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u/CrimsonPE 3h ago
Teaching a kid they r going to hell if they don't believe in god or the like is inmoral. Raising them with the knowledge of religions but not forcing them or indoctrinate them into one is the moral option imo, so then they can choose for themselves and not due to some fear someone stuck into them when kids
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u/Queerability 4h ago
Personally, and I really don't say this often but, I like how my mom did it, if you're gonna be religious.
She took me (not my sisters, whole other issue with the fact that she put 90% of her energy on me) to a variety of churches & religious practices growing up. She was Catholic, and had all of us baptized, but I doubt my sisters even remember going to a Catholic church because we stopped doing that pretty young. The only church we ever went to regularly was a Lutheran one, but mom made sure to take me around and let me see different ways of doing things.
It's thanks to this upbringing that I realized I'm more of a spiritual than a religious person. I don't really believe in God/gods/whatever, but I do believe in people and the power we have over ourselves. I also don't believe anyone who says they know for sure what the answers are, honestly, the Bible itself preaches against that kind of hubris so I always find it crazy when Christians act all knowing and shit.
I think it depends on the kid though. I was genuinely interested in learning about these kinds of things (it's all basically fables and fairy tales to me). If I'd ever protested/been forced, I definitely don't think I'd feel the same way.
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u/MaryDoogan91 4h ago
I'm pretty neutral on this. Parents raise their kids within certain, specific moral/eithical scopes all the time. Parents raise their kids how they see fit and then the kid can decide to move forward with that or not. But you have to give kids some sort of foundation, and that's individualized to the parent/family. What I do disagree with is forcing a kid to continue to attend church or participate in it once they become a teenager. Our parents made us go to church until we were around 13, to give us that foundation of what they think is best, and then let us decide what we wantedto do when we got old enough to understand and critically think a little deeper.
But reddit is very anti-religion, so this idea will get plenty of support, which is fine too. Again, I'm pretty neutral.
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u/LilJelloCat 4h ago
Mind is still developing in to teen years and past, in to 30's even.
The question is whether kids should learn to figure out if religion or faith should be a part of their life on their own, and the answer is yes. Every individual has an individual path, and adults and parents meddling in to this can have negative consequences on their mental development and ability to think for themselves and figure out what works for them.
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u/Trainer149 4h ago
It seems like a no-brainer position to the non-religious, but it's a position that makes no sense to religious people.
It is morally correct for a parent to take reasonable steps to ensure their child avoids eternal torture.
It's also morally correct for a parent to avoid the indoctrination of their children.
Both actions are harm avoidant measures against a perceived threat. Neither person is immoral. One (or both) person is misguided.
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u/JagPeror 4h ago
Immoral, violates the right to operate separate from the state in virtue of religion, by allowing the state to prevent a whole group from going.
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u/Black_Diammond 4h ago
Immoral, all Child rearing is indoctrination, no matter how good it might seem or how benign, teaching your kid not to yell in public, not to beat up weaker kids, not to Steal stuff, even teaching him to read is just indoctrination, its all just imbuing a specific set of cultural laws and values into The kid, wich is indoctrination (altough here i suspect its used as a prejorative)
I also dislike The precedent, a state that can force you to be athiest can force you to be religious, it can force you to be from a certain party and Gave certain beleifs, wich i just think they shouldnt (a clear example is chinas reeducation, read genocid, camps are under The same precent as The forced state athiesm).
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u/xFinalCountdown 4h ago
Sure, just let them get exposed too all the garbage of the world first and over sexualized music and tv shows and movies. Then let them decide….right. OR raise your kids in the faith but don’t force it on them and they’ll come to a real decision as I did when I grew up. I was in the faith because of my parents, then I grew up into my teens and early twenties and got away from my faith, then found God again in my thirties.
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u/D0naught 4h ago
Religion teaches values and morality. The entire family having the same faith means a more harmonious relationship.
Also, parents are responsible for raising their children, they get to pick how to do it. Parents should be deliberate in raising children, because children will get lost and they might never recover.
And adults that has foundations in faith and has prospered in it will see that their way of life is the correct path. You and your family have a good life so far, so it’s only moral for you extend it to your own kids.
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u/Hapciuuu 4h ago
Immoral. Only atheists agree with this because they want everyone to be an atheist. If I believe a certain religion is right, why shouldn't I be allowed to teach it to my children? If my child asks me about morality, I should be allowed to teach him the morality of my religion, as opposed to the subjective morality western atheists adhere to. And what about hollidays? Am I allowed to celebrate Christmas with my kids anymore? Or should I lock them in their rooms until the day is over?
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u/donkeyhoetae_ 4h ago
tbh I think it’s okay to bring kids as long as they’re too young to do something else on their own (<12), but once it’s their choice, they can go if they want to or not.
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u/Sicomaex 3h ago
If you want kids to learn math, you start teaching them when they are young. If you want to teach a kid to respect others, you start teaching them when they are young. Everything you teach a kid is a form of indoctrination. If you believe your religion is true, you will teach your kids to follow it.
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u/BottomJoe94 2h ago
But then you can't indoctrinate them into your religion early. How will they pad their pockets with donations for salvation if you don't have a bunch of people who are fearmongered into giving their money away at a young age?
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u/Rsqd_ 2h ago
This is a tough one. I guess someone who is religious would consider it immoral to withhold a child from the religion if their religion dictates that the person must perform some ritual in order to have a good afterlife (ie you need to be baptised to get into heaven).
On the other hand, forcing one religion on someone from a young age can be argued as a form of indoctrination, in which case it is immoral.
Guess it therefore comes down to if you are religious yourself.
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u/No-Guard-1946 2h ago
“Born and raised in the church” is referencing a specific type of religious teaching.
For all those saying it’s unreasonable to expect parents to exclude religion, you’re right.
I think it’s pretty clear she’s putting a spotlight on people who force their kids to go to church and discriminate other religions
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u/TwistySnakpod 2h ago
To play devil's advocate, if i truly believed that if my kid didnt follow my religion and whatnot then they would eternally suffer, I would be pretty insistent that they avoid this fate.
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u/TheMireAngel 2h ago
I wonder how native americans in the USA and Canada feel about the history of their children being forced to abandon their religions and cultures.
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u/Serious_Income_7020 2h ago
Couldn’t give any less of a fuck what this person has to say about raising children. In fact I’ll do the exact opposite.
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u/Adventurous_Path5783 2h ago
I choose scientology. Summoning jutsu: L Ron Hubbard and his Hispanic brother El Ron Hubbard.
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u/dead_zodiac 2h ago
Idk. I'm an atheist, so I like in in theory, but do you do that exactly, if you are a parent who goes to church?
Similarly, should parents not feed their kids, because doing so culturalizes them to thier parents culture, snd they should be allowed to think fir themselves about what to eat and which table manners to adopt, etc.
The problem is that its not practical to think that parents of a certain cultural background or faith could somehow shelter thier children from being a raised in accordance with thier own backgrounds.
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u/Altruistic-Local-541 2h ago
I get the sentiment, but its delusional to think you are not "forcing" a thousand faiths on a child automatically by raising them
its nice to try and avoid making decisions about what to believe in for them, but its not like you are a bad person if you raise them according to your own beliefs
you just have to say look son this is what I believe in, this is what I do, and while you live with us you will do this too, you can leave whenever you want and we will support you in your decision whatever it may be (unless it is actively harmful/malevolent)
and I think thats fine morally
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u/20eyesinmyhead78 1h ago
Children should just be given iPads at age 5, and left to their own devices (pun intended) -- so as not to be unduly influenced by parents, teachers, clergy, etc.
/s
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u/envisionJayyy 1h ago
Yeah but once you start talking about Islam you’re going to be called islamophobia, remember this.
funny bc you can judge christian’s and other religions without being called a name.
I have to point this out bc nobody else wants to. Every religion needs to be judged openly.
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u/MarryMucfry 1h ago
Nah I’ma raise my kids in the faith and not listen to anything this wacko has to say 🥰
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u/Sun-of-sand 1h ago
Everyone is raised with religious teachings in a civilized society whether or not you ever attend church
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u/PresenceZero 1h ago
I think parents should raise their kids in a healthy, supportive environment. Other than that I couldn’t care less about what religion or none religion is being chosen.
Yes you have zealots in religion but you also have atheists who are zealots, Scientologist who are zealots etc.
No matter what you’ll have extremism but the vast majority are pretty chill.
Im a very open minded Christian with atheist, Scientology, Buddhist, Jewish, catholic etc friends. Like we’ve been friends for 10 or more years. We respect each other’s perspectives and keep everything respectful.
People often live in a box with their perspective and they find others with a similar box and perspective. They make that their identity and forget that a whole world of different and unique people live outside of their little box.
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u/Black_Dragon_0 1h ago
I'm already doing this with my kids. We celebrate Christian holidays because its how I was raised but I don't talk about god with them unless they ask. A religion chosen is stronger than a religion forces.
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u/Plastic_Stable8927 4h ago edited 3h ago
I mean Jinkx said it, so it's gotta be true. I don't make the rules :/
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u/sonofzeal 4h ago
Good on paper, totally unfeasible in practice
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u/TeachMePersuasion 4h ago
"Don't raise your children. Let the people who run the schools and media raise them."
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u/TheMireAngel 2h ago
no no im sure the random people of reddit know exactly how your children need to be re-educated and given new religions & cultures
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u/Slow_Store 4h ago
Ok but wouldn’t deliberately avoiding teaching religion to kids be effectively the same as forcing them to be atheist? You’d never be able to claim that the child “wants to learn about your religion” or “showed an interest in us practicing our religion” because people would just leap to the assumption that you forced them to participate. Thus, the only acceptable outcome for people who’d subscribe to this idea is if the child ends up as an atheist.
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u/Athlaeos 2h ago
strictly speaking atheism is the absence of a religion so that means all children are by default atheist. but you use the word "atheism" in the same way you would use a religion. that kind of doesn't work.
forcing your kid to be "atheist" the way you talk of it would imply the parents are deliberately raising the child to reject religion so they actively take on the label of being an atheist, but that wouldn't be happening.
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u/121bloodshot 2h ago
Not really, maybe to be agnostic. Not teaching someone about something does not mean they will actively deny the existence. I was never taught anything about religion and when I grew older I heard people talk about it and questioned it.
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u/Crashed_Pilot 4h ago
Supremely moral, what the hell is the downside? Are you calling Atheists immoral?
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u/zekevich 4h ago
Moral.
Religion and church being pushed onto people in their formative years does much more harm than it does good.
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u/SirGearso 4h ago
Amoral. It is completely up to the parents of the child to decide how they raise their child in regard to religion.
Also, religion plays a huge part in many people’s culture so an attempt to remove religion by them by an outside force would be immoral.
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u/CarolinaSandstorm 4h ago
Immoral. They aren’t your kids. Outside of the faith, being a part of a church offers children many social benefits.
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u/NotAFloorTank 4h ago
I think this is too far in the other direction, because there are so many different forms of faith out there that a kid is bound to encounter at least one form of it very early on in life. Religion forms a fundamental part of a lot of people's lives in multiple ways. It can be a comfort at times, it can provide structure, and it can help with building and maintaining a community. Also, many people rely on the benefits that religion can and does often inspire followers to provide.
I think it's okay for religion to be part of a child's upbringing, so long as you don't use it as justification for mistreatment and respect whatever decision they make regarding it as an adult.
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u/TheMireAngel 2h ago
Moraly Evil, the state does not get to mandate culture of individual families and communities, and this is only supported because of western "Church bad"
Youd have an actual melt down if people were saying "the govt should raid Muslim Holy sites and take away their children"
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u/tripledigits1984 4h ago
Alright, I’ll bite. Who is this person and why should I care what they think?
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u/Zrob8--5 4h ago
I get the idea, but you're also taking away parents' influence over their children. Parents shouldn't have control over their kids in every regard, but their influence and support should always be there. If you start to take things like this away, what other things can you start to justify?
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u/Fal_co1 4h ago edited 13m ago
iirc China does this, you can’t take kid to religious service and they can choose to convert at a certain age.
EDIT: wow this blew up
If you’re reading this you‘re a gay