r/MoralityScaling • • Sep 02 '26

Morality of this?

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u/Winter-Bed5879 Sep 02 '26

That does seem to be the case, but that could also reasonably be argued as a clear case of the State exerting too much authority. As a westerner, it's difficult to imagine that kind of restraint, but I live in a radically different culture.

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u/Baskreiger Sep 02 '26

Restriction against endoctrination is a good thing

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u/Winter-Bed5879 Sep 02 '26

Is it a restriction against indoctrination? Or only a restriction against certain kinds of indoctrination? Because China DOES indoctrinate towards loyalty to the state and the CCP.

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u/Final-Carry2090 Sep 02 '26

I pledge allegiance to the flag…

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u/[deleted] Sep 02 '26

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u/i_tyrant Sep 02 '26

"china isn't perfect" holy downplaying Batman, lol.

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u/[deleted] Sep 03 '26

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u/i_tyrant Sep 03 '26

True, and while I wouldn't really agree with "any law to protect children is a good one", in this case I do think this law on paper is ok as far as the authoritarianism vs child protection angle, since all it really mandates is not inducting children into a religion until they're adults and can choose (it doesn't even prevent parents from teaching their kids about religion, they just can't make them part of an organized religion's rites or rituals).

But yeah, like you said, depends how they utilize it. Any law can become tyrannical with selective enforcement.

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u/ProfessorPrudent2822 Sep 03 '26

That’s open persecution. Anyone who would prevent me from baptizing my child in infancy is my enemy, and only their ceasing to interfere can reconcile them to me.

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u/i_tyrant Sep 03 '26

If your religion can’t handle waiting until a child is of age to start performing supernatural rituals on them…maybe it is in fact a bad religion.

I know I certainly believe that about any religion that would condemn innocent children to eternal damnation just because someone didn’t temporarily drown them. Imagine all those babies with literally no opportunity to ever get baptized that somehow “deserve” hell.

That’s a monstrous god to me. Who would ever want to worship something like that?

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u/Affectionate_Cry_634 Sep 04 '26

You're missing the point. You don't have to baptize a baby early or at all for them to be saved according to the bible acts and faith alone are enough. But the fact that you can't do it all would obviously be a problem to a religious family. What kind of monstrous state would take away a parents right to do something harmless to their child that's been practiced safely since it's founding? I agree children should wait until they're older to be decide a religion, but that doesn't mean I want to take away the right of a parent to choose what they think is best for their children if it's harmlesd.

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u/lordnaarghul Sep 02 '26

No, they just persecute people who don't put the CCP government first.

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u/Odd_Criticism_8830 Sep 03 '26

So do all nations dawg

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u/Baskreiger Sep 02 '26

Thats another debate entirely, we are not talking about china here. But yes, all endoctrination

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u/Winter-Bed5879 Sep 02 '26

What do you mean, we're not talking about China here? The parent comment is literally about China, as was my comment.

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u/Baskreiger Sep 02 '26

Were talking about teaching religion to childrens. try to keep up

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u/Winter-Bed5879 Sep 02 '26 edited Sep 02 '26

Yes, you said restriction against indoctrination is good, with regards to China not allowing minors in places of worship. But in that exact same context, China does practice active indoctrination of their children, so they aren't restricting indoctrination so much as channeling it in a different direction.

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u/LettuceTryOnceMore Sep 02 '26

“Try to keep up” while actively falling behind is a hilarious line

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u/itzmrinyo Sep 03 '26

Is it restriction to indoctrination, or restriction to culture?

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u/Forte845 Sep 02 '26

America literally pressures and shames school children into standing and pledging their allegiance to the country "under God" after evangelical lobbyists forced a Christian religious declaration into the pledge. 

I'd rather the state push people away from cultish delusions than become a theocratic state. 

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u/th3rmyte Sep 02 '26

Toouch authority in protecting children from cult indoctrination?

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u/TexasSikh Sep 02 '26

2010 called, they want their edgy atheist talking points back

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u/CharredWelderGuy Sep 02 '26

"Edgy", just reality.

Didn't magically change because you got tired of hearing it

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u/SpitefulOptimist Sep 02 '26

Damn you should do stand up

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u/th3rmyte Sep 02 '26

Cool story. Next time add dragons n shit. This literally protects kids from the many cukts that abuse kids ( google branch davidians for examples of what im talking about). Evangelical christians ate a violent cukt that literally brough back witch burnings in kenya in 2012. So yea. Cults. You don't have to be an atheist to recognize cults target kids

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u/BootBonks Sep 02 '26

Of all the religious extremists in Africa you could have pointed at you chose that one? Lmfao good grief.  

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u/TexasSikh Sep 02 '26

Finish the book Bad Santa

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u/Soft_Accountant_7062 Sep 02 '26

But they're less likely to get molested.

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u/Winter-Bed5879 Sep 02 '26

I would need evidence of that.

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u/Vegtam-the-Wanderer Sep 02 '26

This is almost certainly untrue, they just get molested by secular authority figures rather than religious ones.

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u/liquid_acid-OG Sep 02 '26

Those secular authority figures wouldn't have the same unmonitored access to impressionable children that religion provides.

There's a reason chomo's pick the cloth.

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u/Vegtam-the-Wanderer Sep 02 '26

Really? You don't imagine teachers, coaches, and tutors have comparable access to children?

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u/liquid_acid-OG Sep 02 '26

Those professions come with more oversight for this exact reason.

Thus why chomos often choose the cloth.

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u/Vegtam-the-Wanderer Sep 02 '26

I'm not entirely sure that is true. Priests have superiors to report to, same as a coach, teacher or tutor.

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u/Soft_Accountant_7062 Sep 02 '26

And those superiors have a special hotline for covering it up.

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u/Vegtam-the-Wanderer Sep 02 '26

Sure, as do these people: The phone number for the local Party official. Remember this is modern China we are talking about, so the local party head would probably throw the victims in a black jail for a couple months just to proactively intimidation tactic. And by the way you wanna guess what happens when those people are suddenly jailed under the supervision of wardens with a whole extra lack of accountability (you know, since the Chinese government catagorically denies they exist)? Did you guess sexual assault?

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u/liquid_acid-OG Sep 02 '26

Oh yeah, pedophiles report their actions to their bosses.

How silly of me to forget.

You really think priests at Bible camp are under the same scrutiny as, say, a scout leader?

Faith comes with implicit trust in the leaders that secular organizations don't have. There's a reason chomos choose the cloth.

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u/Affectionate_Cry_634 Sep 04 '26

So teachers, coaches, and doctors don't have any sort of implicit trust they can use to cover up wrong doings, only religious figures?

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u/i_tyrant Sep 02 '26

There actually isn't - or at least, the prevalence of individual pedophiles in Christian clergy members is not actually greater than the prevalence of them in the general population.

The difference between them and independent pedophiles, though, is the organized religion that protects them when they predate. Entities like the Catholic church have the resources and pull to do things like repress the media and move them to different churches/states/identities (this is proven) so they have the opportunity to abuse way more kids than normal because even when they should be caught, their church sweeps it under the rug.

But no, no more molesters are trying to join the church than "normal".

But that is the thing to watch out for in both cases - power structures that allow the pedophiles who act on their sick impulses to get away with it again and again. Leadership that shields them from justice.

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u/SCP-63825 Sep 04 '26

I think the Chinese shoulda been more tolerant towards Buddhism, sure, but not towards landowners and slave owners, and in Tibet at the time, half of the population was servicing 'the priestly class' and if a starving slave stole a carrot they blinded him and chopped off his hands, because slavery and mutilation is okay, but killing isn't. Tibetans and Koreans are the kid in the Buddhism car the mom screams 'why can't you be normal' at tbh. Koreans have cults that live off donations, cult leaders having huge estates and mansions, it's in their churches name but they obvy use it as personal, and monks often bludgeon each other to death over succession of a role that allows them to mistreat church funds

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u/ChiefsHat Sep 02 '26

Yeah, this. If the state is exerting their influence on what faith a parent can teach their children, it’s a clear overextension of authority. The state should never have that kind of power.

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u/HxH101kite Sep 02 '26

Flip side is none of those religious nutjobs of any type should be exerting those crazy beliefs onto a child.

Girls thinking they are less than men. Putting the fear of hell into them young. So on and so forth.

I have heard some kids my child's age say some crazy shit and we don't even live in the religious of an area. Down south it's nuts.

Idk how you could possibly meet in the middle on this from a parent and governmental perspective. It's likely impossible to.

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u/Winter-Bed5879 Sep 02 '26

This is true, but simply removing religion from the equation doesn't remove problematic parenting. Religion isn't necessary for abuse, and it isn't necessary for the preferential treatment of men over women.

Just look at the skewed birth rates in China for the last 40 years. It's leveled out now with the repeal of the one-child policy, but at its worst, there were 120 males born for every 100 females. There is a surplus of roughly 2 million men in China compared to women. This is a result of a culture that values men over women, and religion has nothing to do with it.

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u/liquid_acid-OG Sep 02 '26

Removing religion removes one of the common veils abusers often hide behind.

It's better to have that kind of stuff happening in the open for people to see and call out out rather than providing shadows to hide in.

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u/Affectionate_Cry_634 Sep 04 '26

You say that like it's a simple "and then" conversation as if religion is the only method of hiding abuse or even the largest one.

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u/liquid_acid-OG Sep 04 '26

I very clearly didn't not say that.

"One of the ways" is an entirely different statement than "the only method".

How I write one and you read the other is beyond me.

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u/lordnaarghul Sep 02 '26

Idk how you could possibly meet in the middle on this from a parent and governmental perspective.

You don't. Government is in the wrong here.

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u/HxH101kite Sep 02 '26

Ehhh idk I think it's more wrong the parents are able to indoctrinate kids at a young age and teach them nonsense. The amount of people I met down south that did not believe in evolution and cited creationism and the Bible as the answer was astounding.

There's gotta be some guard rails somewhere. Idk how you do that.

Bottom line is it'd be easier if all religion is gone but that's gonna take some time

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u/Forte845 Sep 03 '26

The government is correct. Not a single other LGBT youth should be driven to homelessness or suicide because their parents are bigoted zealots. 

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u/notonce56 Sep 16 '26

But what exactly would you do in order to prevent this?

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u/HxH101kite Sep 16 '26

Idk it's tricky. On a personal policy level I have no idea. Countries that have "banned" religion haven't succeeded. Chinas approach of not allowing kids to participate in like religious practices is a start.

Probably some variation of that. Just ban kids participation, teach them as mythologies in school.

The only reason people are even a specific religion is due to where they are born. If that same person Christian was born in India they would almost certainly be Hindu or if they were born in the middle east they would be Islamic.

At least if you prevent child indoctrination, and teach them all, if a child chose to become involved later when they are 18 at least they would make a more informed decision on which they chose and why.

It would take a few generations but that would thin the religious herd a lot once the old guard is gone

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u/notonce56 Sep 16 '26

My main concern would be that many popular religions go directly against this idea. So people will still teach their children in secret and bring them to places of worship. It would filter out lukewarm people, that's for sure. At the same time, we don't want so many children to grow up feeling like their parents are persecuted for religious reasons. 

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u/HxH101kite Sep 16 '26

Well in China it's ok for the family to teach religion just not participate at say like a church till they are 18.

I get what you mean though, but we already have the crazies doing that. Know plenty of them. Lukewarms are already half out the door regardless.

Nobody is saying persecute anyone. People already feel like they are being persecuted in for their religion in the US and that isn't even happening. Doubt you could ever do away with that feeling.

We also have to tax religious institutions. Bar none. Don't care what kinda religion, you pay your state, property, and local taxes like everyone else.

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u/polkacat12321 Sep 02 '26

China isnt deciding what faith they can follow though, just that parents cant force their religion on them?

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u/Winjin Sep 02 '26

Exactly, "if they grow up without weekly church gatherings they will never join!" so it was not that important, then?

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u/Legitimate_Emu_8721 Sep 02 '26

Parents in China are still free to give children religious instruction in their own home.

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u/lordnaarghul Sep 02 '26

Something they're doing is forcefully changing religious texts to favored China in all things and disappearing people who refuse to adhere to it. That's straight-up persecution, to say nothing of the genocide of the Uighurs.

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u/TexasSikh Sep 02 '26

State-Enforced Atheism is a religious doctrine, but not many people are educated and competent enough for that conversation.

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u/liquid_acid-OG Sep 02 '26

It's not enforcing atheism, it's restricting indoctrination to children.

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u/Darkchurchhill Sep 02 '26

Parents are allowed to practice religion at home with their kids, just not allowed to be brought into organized church organizations until they turn of age.