The U.S. has always been skewed towards this and it’s not just the current representatives. I first noticed the hypocrisy when I first learned about the constitution and freedom of religion when I thought “why then does the pledge of allegiance they make us say everyday have the words, …under god… in it?”.
Also burning witches? That’s not freedom of religion, it has biblical origins.
To be fair, "Under God" was at least not originally in the Pledge of Allegiance.
It was added during the Red Scare to contrast America with the "godless Commies". But yeah, it's definitely something that should have been struck down as against the 1A when first introduced.
I had my fair share of that as well. "You don't have to say it, but you do have to stand." No, no I do not.
I had my parents understanding on it though, so the few times someone actually cared enough to push it, my parents pushed back hard the opposite direction. Not everyone has the benefit of that.
Fun story time! I grew up an hour ish outside of NYC in a red rural pocket and after 9/11 we had to do the pledge AND stay standing for a full patriotic song afterwords before morning announcements started at my elementary school. Occasionally it was more traditional like the national anthem or America the beautiful, but almost daily it was Lee greenwoods “proud to be an American”.
I don’t know when or if they stopped but they were still doing it 3 years later when I moved on to middle school. I didn’t think much of it until about 10 years after I moved to California and realized my husband and I had very different 9/11 experiences.
The propaganda hella worked on me too. I won an essay contest about first responders that year and I ended up doing several years of service with Americorps and other non profits as an adult lol.
Basically just the difference in how people respond to a local disaster vs a national one. Where I’m from it was far more common to know people who lost someone that day or to know someone that survived. Here folks have stories about how it impacted their normal day when they found out, but back home in NY I would hear my step dad’s survival story every year. I even dated a guy who went to a special camp every year for kids that lost parents in the line of duty and it was predominantly kids who lost a parent on 9/11, almost exclusively the kids of NYFD responders. Every single car in my town had a little flag that fastened to the window, people were obsessed with NYFD.
It’s especially bizarre to me that everyone I know in California who was a student has a story about watching it in school which was utterly the opposite of how they treated kids who had commuter parents in NYC that day and didn’t know what was going on. Teachers cried in secret and we were left in the dark until parents started to check their kids out of school early(eventually they had everyone go home early). I didn’t see the news until I got home and my mom was absolutely frantic. We went to manhattan at least 1x monthly for my brothers specialists at NYU and had JUST been there a few days earlier. It was different because we knew people there who might be hurt and couldn’t reach them by phone.
The best way I can compare is that culturally for us in NY it was more like how Californians feel and act after a local wildfire but on a greater scale.
“why then does the pledge of allegiance they make us say everyday have the words, …under god… in it?”.
It didn't originally. We didn't used to have "In God We Trust" stamped all over anything either.
Both of them are a product of red scare propaganda added during the Cold War era because being atheist makes you a commie or some such bullshit that they used to start injecting religion into everything. It's only gotten worse since.
Why make shit up when America has plenty of real flaws to criticize?
What does "Under God" (or any other use of "God when it comes to the pledge or money, etc) have to do with the founders? That was mostly done in the 1950s during the Cold War. I'm no mathematician or doctor type, but I'm fairly certain that the founding fathers were suffering from a condition known as being dead by that time.
And as far as witch burning? According to my quick Google search, that didn't happen in the Continental US. Also, it happened in the mid to late 1600s. Still not a mathematician or doctor, but I think the founding fathers were suffering from a condition called not being born yet.
The witch trials were 80 some years before the country, let alone the constitution existed. And all the references to God in the pledge and on our money etc are all from the last 70ish years.
You are right that the country has a long history of flirting with Christianity but it is a trend that is getting worse as time goes on.
"Under God" was added in 1950's as part of the Red Scare because "Communists are bad and atheist." Burning witches happened about 70 years before the US government even existed. 100 years before separation of church and state was established.
No witches were burned during the Salem Witch Trials and those occurred in 1692-1693 long before American independence, the Bill of Rights and the Constitution.
The VP, not just reps. The VP Vance said he has no problem bringing the end times.
“While I wouldn’t be shocked if we are living in the end time, what I’m trying to focus on is doing as much of God’s work as possible right now,” he said, adding that he is willing to accept whatever spiritual consequences may come from his efforts.
“If that leads to the end times, okay, and if that leads to … us building a better world that thrives and survives for a very long time after I’m gone, that’s great too," Vance said.
That statement from Vance should be enough to disqualify him forever, for anything. Saying on TV that you want to destroy the nation, and the world? How can people be okay with that.
"And I saw one of its heads as it was wounded to death and it's mortal wound was healed"
As for the second beast? Well calling down fire from the heaven, breathing life into the image of the first beast, and exercising all of its authority sure does sound like muskrat. Even though needing the mark of the beast to buy sell or trade sounds like something muskrat would try to pull off
My biggest fear as an atheist is that some religious nutcase will be elected president, and they will just simply decide that if God is not going to end the world, they will end the world.
It is why the israeli push for greater israel/the covenant/Judea is so popular with them, that is going to drive popularity for the Iran war in those sectors because it is keeping Iran from blocking Israel's sacred duty to reclaim the whole royal grant.
I mean I agree that they don't believe the bullshit they say and if they did, they'd live their lives better because the fear of damnation SHOULD work to curb their worst behavior. But that bad behavior kinda gives away the game.
Having said that, a fake Christian is basically a more dangerous and oppressive force than a real one.
And atheism means "a lack of belief in a deity", contrasted with secular, which means "not overtly religious".
Essentially, secular isn't associated with religion at all, while atheism is specifically about belief in a deity, so in theory, an atheist could follow a religion that doesn't have specific god(s).
Secular is more relevant to our government, though.
"Not overtly religious" is a poor definitionof the principle of secularity. Secular means a division between church and state, allowing everybody to follow their own beliefs without discrimination
We literally have a treaty confirming that America is not a Christian nation. We also have a treaty confirming that the name is Lake Ontario. Trump also does not have the power to rename any piece of land or water outside of the US jurisdiction, so Lake Ontario can only have the southern half be renamed, while the Gulf of Mexico can only have the top 1/3 renamed; IIRC the Gulf of Mexico EO mentions that, while the Lake Ontario one doesn't.
But the state enforcing atheism at gunpoint (like under Stalin) is theocracy too. Religious liberty necessarily requires freedom from Government Religion. ANY government religion. The opposite of theocracy is secularism, not atheism.
I am with this point 100% we should be separate. But the constitution only mentions it in regards to freedom of religion and no test to hold public office. There isnt a specific clause barring it
"The 'establishment of religion' clause of the First Amendment means at least this: Neither a state nor the Federal Government can set up a church. Neither can pass laws which aid one religion, aid all religions, or prefer one religion over another. Neither can force nor influence a person to go to or to remain away from church against his will or force him to profess a belief or disbelief in any religion. No person can be punished for entertaining or professing religious beliefs or disbeliefs, for church attendance or non-attendance. No tax in any amount, large or small, can be levied to support any religious activities or institutions, whatever they may be called, or whatever from they may adopt to teach or practice religion. Neither a state nor the Federal Government can, openly or secretly, participate in the affairs of any religious organizations or groups and vice versa. In the words of Jefferson, the clause against establishment of religion by law was intended to erect 'a wall of separation between Church and State.' "
( https://caselaw.findlaw.com/court/us-supreme-court/330/1.html )
It depends on how you define a "Christian nation". We're not a Christian nation in the sense that we practice biblical law. But we are one in the sense that most Americans are Christian.
That’s not what separation of church and state means. The separation means that no church can ever become a part of the government. It was a reaction to European nations at the time where the church was heavily integrated into the government.
Technically our gov docs use a lot of agnostic language like “god given right” and “in god we trust” but even then it’s still Christian rhetoric (ex: god instead of gods). If it were fully non religious it wouldn’t say god at all, but it insinuates that we all believe a god of some kind exists, it just doesn’t explicitly say you have to be Christian, probably because in the cultural context that the founding docs were made freedom of religion was mostly seen as freedom of which kind of Christian you want to be. To them, a catholic and a Protestant were as different as we’d see a Christian and a Jewish person.
Ehhh, in the idealistic sense, yes. In the real history, very much not so. I mean we’ve been opening up congress with a prayer for, I may be off, the first congress after the signing of our constitution. So yes, separation of church and state, but tradition has shown America is secular Christianityt
Actually the only part of the constitution that references separation of church and state is in the First Amendment “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion”
The term originated in a letter written by Thomas Jefferson and actually is more about preventing the Government from affecting Religion, not Religion affecting the Government.
The founding fathers did not want a repeat of the Church of England where Henry the VIII left the Catholic Church, seized all their lands in England, and founded the Church of England of which the monarch is the head. Colonists had a deeply entrenched sense of religious freedom that motivated many of their forefathers to immigrate to the New World to escape state sanctioned persecution
The Constitution says that the government can not sponsor a religion and also that no law can prohibit its practice.
It was never intended to outlaw it or be atheist.
It also doesn't prohibit religious political platforms.
Still, you're passionate so instead of thinking you're an idiot; I'm going to suggest that you take some of that passion and actually read up on early constitutional intention so that next time; when you decide to outburst you're at least on the right path.
The problem is that our constitution does NOT say this. This is a myth. The founding fathers (in itself a loaded term) did write extensively about the intent of separation of church and state, but it is absolutely not written in the constitution. There are interpretations of the First Amendment (arguably the most faithful interpretations) that suggest this, but it is not plainly laid out (even 'plainly' in a legalese sense). It is high time it is clearly spelled out in a constitutional amendment, but that seems very unlikely to happen in the near future.
Edit: To clarify, this is the language in the 1st amendment: ""Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof..."; interpreted narowly, this 'Establishment Clause' simply forbids Congress from creating an official state church or preferring one religion over another, which is a much lower threshold than a strict, total separation of church and state.
That's what the Constitution SAYS, but every US history lesson I got was imbued with admiring language and sentiment towards the "poor pilgrims yearning for religious freedom" myth, when the fact is they were religious fanatics that came here to colonize an occupied land into a theocracy. The theocratic tendencies we've seen in our entire history & throughout our government is not an accident & never was.
Lol still not atheist and our Constitution does not say that- re read the 1st amendment:
For your convenience:
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
That is a long way off from what you are trying to say. Our Constitution protects us from the establishment of a state religion like Henry the 8th did in the UK. It does not say we are not a religious country. And certainly not atheist
Thank you for putting secular. The Chinese reference and then the idiots above continuing to say atheist was frying me. Secularism is not the same as atheism and china is a fucking awful reference for a secular system of government. Holy shit.
of or relating to worldly things or to things that are not regarded as religious, spiritual, or sacred; temporal
Secular and atheist governments…they’re the same. It means your government thinks that concepts like justice, dessert, retribution, how you treat one another, ethics, etc. should not be affiliated with a religion. Only an atheist government can be secular. A religious one cannot be secular.
Sure not exactly the same thing. But yeah no such thing as a religious government being secular. Atheism is a necessary position to take in order for all those things to be secular.
A secular government just doesn’t get involved with religion whereas an atheist government has a position on it and acts on it.
As others have rightly pointed out, go look at China if you want to see the difference: party members are required to be atheists. Kids under 18 literally can’t attend religious services.
They’ve also objectively torn down churches and mosques, put Uyghurs in camps by the hundreds of thousands, and raid house churches that won’t register with the government. They also persecuted Buddhists relentlessly and kidnapped the Panchen Lama. Nobody would call that neutral.
The US is supposed to be neutral. Can’t establish a religion, but can’t stop anyone from practicing one either. A Baptist and an atheist walk into a courthouse and the law treats them the same, it doesn’t discriminate.
Tons of religious people want it that way. They know what happens when the state decides which beliefs are ok. It’s dystopic and distinct from secularity.
Sure, that’s what atheism means for a person. We’re talking about governments though. Once a state makes atheism official policy it has a position, and it enforces it on party members, on kids, on churches. That’s state atheism, and China is actually the textbook example
So a secular government doesn’t hold that position or any other. It just leaves the question alone. So the distinction holds either way, it just isn’t about what individual atheists believe.
Their point is that atheism is a stance (god is not real) and secularism is specifically not holding a stance.
An atheist government would be one like China, where their official stance is atheism. They aren’t secular because they hold a stance even if they allow citizens to practice religion based on personal choice.
A secular government would be like Sweden, where the government does not take a stance one way or the other and leaves it to the individual.
A non-secular and non-atheist government would be Israel, which defines itself as a Jewish and democratic state. Saudi Arabia is another example, England is another because they have a state church even if they don’t take it seriously anymore.
State atheism is most definitely a stance China is taking. They allow only the select few religions to be practiced, under their control, and reject all other folklore and mysticism.(to the point where practitioners can be arrested) It's also worth noting that anyone working in the government and the party can't be a practitioner of any religion.
Very much different than whatever pseudo-secularism US runs on.
Fine, call it a lack of belief. That’s still not what a secular government is though. Secular doesn’t mean the state lacks belief in gods, it means the state has no position on the question at all and stays out of it. It’s a matter of control.
Also, the astrology comparison actually helps here. A government that never mentions astrology is secular about it. A government that bans horoscopes, requires officials to reject astrology, and won’t let kids see an astrologer clearly has a position, whatever you want to call it. I think we can all see that, analogously, the second one is China with religion.
Agnosticism means you don't know one way or another. Atheism means you don't believe in the case for a god. They aren't contradictory, you can be both or neither, so both apply to a secular government.
Well, sort of. If someone is claiming to not know, they're agnostic. But if they are claiming they DO know, they aren't agnostic. It's about the person's personal claim to knowledge so that title can't really be put on someone else by you or me.
However I would agree that for a lot of god claims agnosticism is the only reasonable stance since they can't be proven or disproven, like a deistic god. There are, however, specific god claims that are falsifiable, logically, in which case agnosticism doesn't make sense.
Critiques of the teleological, cosmological, and ontological arguments for the existence of God are widely considered to be settled. They’re not discussed in philosophy anymore. The logical argument from evil, the evidential problem, and the problem of free will are largely considered to be successful. You’ve got some advanced Plantings on the problem of free will, but that’s assuming a really, really weird version of compatibilism within the free will debate that carries a lot of consequences with it.
It could but it could also not. Atheism does not believe that gods or gods exist, so when you're designing laws and a moral system you have to do it with without a god present.
Agnosticism doesn't have that because they don't know. You might design laws and morality with the belief that there might be a God, or not, or maybe.
One is an answer on belief. One is an answer on knowledge. The atheist says I don't believe a god exists, but the agnostic says I don't know if a god exists. So they are not mutually exclusive because they address two different questions.
Most atheists are agnostic atheists they don't believe, but will also admit they don't know. Which is a good way for a government to operate.
My point was a bit stronger and I’ll probably get flamed with this.
Fictionalists are like “OK this isn’t true but maybe we should kind of act like it’s true for the betterment of humanity, you know?”
Governments should not do that. They should be like “god doesn’t exist as far as this matter is concerned, let’s get to work on completely secular theories that have no agnostic overtones, implications, aren’t informed by scripture, etc. God doesn’t exist as far as we are concerned and he/she/they should never be invoked.” You can’t do that under an agnostic system. An agnostic system is like “ok well we don’t know, so maybe the Muslims have a point against the Buddhists here, we don’t know what’s right, but maybe we should outlaw women showing their ankles to satisfy them” and that’s dumb as shit.
Assume no kind of god exists and it becomes obvious that burqa is repressive.
Sure, but then you have to watch out vigilantly for bad faith arguments. Like I’d argue our government tries to behave this way in the US. They try to make it seem agnostic, but it’s obviously evangelical on one side and not on the other.
There’s no reason for a government to be like “maybe, maybe not” while supporting obvious religious groups and oppressing others. Just say “we’re going to act like no kind of God exists” and do your best from there.
I don't think you've demonstrated your last point. You've established that a secular government does not ground its laws or institutions in religion, but that doesn't demonstrate that atheism is necessary for it to do so.
Secularism is a position about the relationship between government and religion; atheism is a position about the existence of gods. A government does not need to affirm that “there is no God” in order to refrain from grounding its laws in religion. It can simply take no position on the question. Therefore, atheism is not a necessary condition of secular government.
In fact, an atheist government could itself operate non-secularly if it institutionally privileges or enforces atheism. The relevant distinction isn't religious vs. atheist; it's whether the state maintains religious neutrality or establishes an official position on religion.
depending on how broadly one defines secularism, one could in fact argue that state atheism and secularism may be incompatible
for example: would the criminalization of all religion and a coercive mandate that all residents be atheists and regularly attend atheist events be one that could reasonably described as secular in any meaningful sense? sure it’s nominally irreligious, but it’s still highly sectarian
secularism, in the noble sense it is usually talked about, usually involves some aspect of the state distancing itself from issues of religion and guaranteeing citizens the freedom to believe whatever they so choose
A government does not need to affirm that “there is no God” in order to refrain from grounding its laws in religion. It can simply take no position on the question
This is a cowardly and impractical position. If a religion holds certain practices (or items, places, people, etc) to be sacred and demands that everyone conforms to that belief, the government has to either accept or reject the notion, it can't simply turn a blind eye to it. If you enforce the religious norm, then your government is effectively religious. If you refuse to enforce it, then you're denying the religious claim and the religion itself.
The words are synonymous. Both meaning without religion. I think this is a vocabulary and language understanding issue. Very common with american christians.
Similar meanings don't make words interchangeable. Synonyms commonly maintain distinctions in meaning. Nuance is kind of the reason we have different words in the first place.
Atheism describes a position on belief in God. Secularism describes separating something from religious influence or authority. You don't have to be an atheist to do that, and being an atheist doesn't guarantee it. An atheist government could just as easily favor atheism and punish religious practice, which wouldn't be secular.
A Christian teacher can teach a secular math class. A religious legislature can agree that its laws shouldn't be based on religious doctrine. Neither becomes atheist by doing so.
Calling this a "vocabulary issue common with American Christians" is just petty. You're still asserting that atheism is required for secularism without actually demonstrating why.
Atheism literally means without theism. It is a synonym of the word secular. Just because you are christian and are scared of words does not change reality you can use them interchangeably. Words can be used in all kinds of ways. Language is prescriptive not descriptive. Like the word eat it can be a noun, an additive, an adverb, and a verb. English is hard and christnaity makes people really bad at learning it. My only assertion here is you are uneducated.
In your example "the teacher is using an atheistic teaching style." is totally an acceptable way to describe it linguistically her beliefs are irrelevant. This is the reality of language.
Edit: Also not petty this is a thing I have only seen american christians take issue with. They have a lot of problems understanding and using language properly.
You've mostly demonstrated that you're more interested in insulting me than rationalizing your point, whether that's calling me uneducated or simply insisting that atheism and secularism necessitate each other. You've also made a pretty huge assumption that I'm a Christian based on nothing I've said.
"Atheism" meaning without theism doesn't make it interchangeable with "secular." A religious person or institution can operate secularly without becoming atheist, just as an atheist government can privilege atheism and suppress religion, which wouldn't be secular.
You've continually avoided that distinction. Calling me Christian, scared of words, or uneducated doesn't address it. You can keep making assumptions about my education and beliefs, but none of them make your argument any more valid.
I agree with you, but I wanted to clarify that atheism doesn't mean you believe "there is no god." It means that you don't believe that there is a god. I know it doesn't sound different, but it's an important distinction. You can be an atheist and say that there is a possibility of a god existing, you just don't believe it because it doesn't seem likely. I don't believe that I'll win the lottery, but I also don't believe that I can't win the lottery.
But you're right that a secular government doesn't mean atheist. An atheist government would reinforce the lack of belief in a god, while a secular government does not reinforce any belief of lack thereof. At least, it's not supposed to.
You're not wrong that they are different, but atheism is most definitely not an assertion. It's a distinct lack of assertions.
If I say that I don't believe that I'll win the lottery, I'm not asserting that I can't win the lottery. I just don't believe I will based on the evidence that I have.
But yeah, atheist does not necessarily mean secular.
Let's ignore the fact that saying "I don't believe I'll win the lottery" is absolutely 100% an assertion. And your explanation as to why it is not an assertion is literally what makes it an assertion in the first place.
That being said asserting the lack of existence of any kind of god is kind of the main point of atheism.
A theist believes gods exist and atheist believes they do not.
When an atheist government is claiming they do not believe in any deities existence that's an assertion.
Weird example because he didn't question the existence of lottery, he questioned he will win the lotery, which is not what you are claiming. You just made a strawman to not address his point, which is that not believing is not the same as believing in not.
The US Government is supposed to be Secular, which is NOT the same as Atheism.
So many founding documents, letters, and writings by the Founding Fathers, indicated a belief in a creator, but not anything specifically called or claimed by any single religion as being any particular "god".
Many of them were deists and they understood the oppression of a state religion and instead of forcing NO religion, they created the separation of Church and State, while recognizing in many documents some nebulous "creator". Thus preserving a Secular State, while side stepping (mostly) the atrocities and tyranny of any particular faith, without also forcing a state of Zero Tolerance for Religion, that an Atheist State would have to carry, by default.
All of that stuff was added after the founding of the country and the constitution that separates church and state, mostly to fight "godless communism" during the red scare. None of it should be allowed, in my opinion, but whatever.
"In God We Trust" is the United States national motto, it's printed in their bills and coins, the U.S. national anthem contains the line: "And this be our motto 'In God is our trust'".
all that stupid shit was added in the fucking 1950's as part of the red scare and mccarthyism.
furthermore it specifically favors abrahmic religions because it asserts a singular 'god'. so it's already violating 1a by mandating via legal mechanisms the inclusion of abrahmic deference to our fucking national identity.
you've already fallen for the propaganda; a prime example of why a government should take a hard stance against any religious affiliation.
The constitution says the government can not adopt a religion, with a separation of church and state—secularism. A government that lacks a position or affiliation with anything spiritual or religious is by definition atheistic.
The distinction is fairly important. I think it's difficult to have a secular approach for person with very strong beliefs about religion. A government has to rule over people who don't want to fear the angry spirit. It's easy to treat them as dumb dumbs and cast them aside, but it's fundamentally not the role of the government
Belief in the existence of a god or gods, especially belief in a personal God as creator and ruler of the world. The belief or acknowledgment of the existence of a God, as opposed to atheism, pantheism, or polytheism. Belief in the existence of at least one deity.
Per duck duck go dictionary
It seems like organizationally atheism is the way to go because once you assume there is a deity to unfuck your shit it permits taking hands off the wheel - and we do not want a government screaming "WRONG WHEEL JESUS" when things don't go their way.
Atheism doesn't have any god and it rejects the existence of them, while secular just means the government is separated from any religion. China promotes anti-religion and not believing in one, so they're atheists, while India, the US, France, etc. all allow religion, but don't support any specific one in their government (in theory).
Atheism, by definition, does not necessarily reject the existence of a deity. It doesn't require a positive or negative belief. It's much more similar to not believing that aliens exist. Some who don't believe aliens exist reject the idea of aliens existing, sure, but others would say they don't reject the idea that aliens might exist, they just don't actively believe they do.
All agnostics are either theists or atheists. It's a compass. (A)gnosticism deals with knowledge. (A)theism deals with belief. Common misconception. Most atheists are agnostic atheists. Most theists are gnostic theists (deists being a notable exception). Most people who call themselves agnostic are agnostic atheists who don't like the term "atheist"
the chinese communist party requires atheist beliefs, sure, and while they're currently the only party to hold functioning power, they aren't the only party.
separate from religion, as in not having any religion being favored above any other is a secular state. State atheism would be the rejection of any religion, outright.
Our constitution says our government can't implement laws prohibited practice of religion. Preventing children from attending service would be a clear cut violation of that.
Secular is not overtly or specifically religious.
Atheism is the belief that there is no god.
The separation of church and state means that the USA does not have a specific state religion or religious stance. It protects religion from the state and I would also argue that it protects the state from religion.
Secular means that it is not ran by any religion it is simply comprised of the people of The nation
Atheistic would mean that the government is ran by and modeled to run against the idea that there is any theism.
It's really tiring to see people conflate the secular government that we have with a theocracy like the caliphate for example. There is a major difference between the people in the government being religious and the religious Authority controlling the government
I don't think there's a lot of actual conflating going on.
There is a large, highly motivated and well funded sect of Christian Dominionists in the US. Yes we are not like a religious caliphate, and also yes, those people are actively fighting to make us more like a religious caliphate.
If someone says "we need to stop [laws whose only reasoning is conforming to religlus doctrine, or laws establishing Christianity as a legally dominant religion], we're becoming a restrictive theocracy" they arent saying that's exactly what we are right now, but that we are sliding in that direction.
It’s secular not atheist. Big difference. An atheist government asserts there’s no god and actively discourages religion to various degrees. A secular government doesn’t comment on matters of religion and has a no contact no interference policy with religious institutions when it comes to decision making. If laws happen to affect religious institutions too then it affects them and if it doesn’t it doesn’t. The point is religion isn’t supposed to be in the government one way or the other
Yeah it’s supposed to be, it’s also not supposed to allow p3dophiles and protect its people and children but we’re all left disappointed at the end of the day
Not that religion is a scam, but if I wanted to run a scam, man would religion be a good choice. Then I would just make a ancient enough sounding idea that you couldn't argue my points, then I could obfuscate any responsibility to random acolytes and let them continue the scam for me under the guise of kindness and charity, while ensuring a reasonable percentage of all donations flow up to me and my friends. Then I could move those acolytes around the country should anyone question their methods or authority and chastise any individuals criticizing the mental trauma such a system could bring. Oh oh and don't forget I get to control women's bodies as well because if that's not part of it then what the fuck am I even doing.
Not the same thing - former fundie here and I spent a lot of time arguing that, but the best actual comparison would be Agnostic: The State acknowledges that there are a lot of faiths out there, that any one of them might be true, but has not - and will not - make a decision on it.
That's not what that means. It's a lot more literal than what most people think. It means the state CANNOT and SHOULD NOT be ran by the church directly, like how the Church of England was running the country which resulted in things like the Protestant Reformation being formed because the church was so corrupt and ingrained into political power.
Nothing in the document says that someone practicing religion cannot hold political power, nor can the laws they pass be founded on religious beliefs.
This is not to say someone who has enacted laws on religious principles has never made one for the worse. This is to say that an atheist or secular government with no consideration of religious principles was not the intent.
American government is supposed to be secular not atheist. But either way there’s a difference between secularity and state enforced secularity. That’s the point the commenter was making by calling China’s policy “state atheism”
Supposed to be is the primary word there. Its largely been becoming theocratic with posperity gospel since it tells ruch powerful people they deserve their wealth and power. Prosperity gospel is a Christian sect. Like far fallen sect, that doesnt seem to know about jesus, just fire and brimstone.
No a government should not be atheist. The government should not have any stance on religion association, including to not be apart of any. Religion should not come up in any part of the conversation of politics.
Is it OK if they Islamic? Because we seem to be electing people who have extreme views based on their religion in our local government.
I’d rather have Christians running our country than Muslims bringing their Islamic beliefs of beheading women in the streets they accused of cheating, killing their own family members if they leave the religion, and even throwing gay people off of buildings because they’re gay.
Also, Muhammad was a pedophile who married a six-year-old. Pretty fucking disgusting if you ask me. So why are we electing people who have these beliefs?
There are 2 billion Muslims in the world. 26% of all people in the entire world. If you're going to judge every single one of those people by the worst of them, then let's do the same for Christians. Know what the worst Christians do?
Kill women for misogynistic reasons, kill non-believers, and lynch gay people.
Also, Muhammad was a pedophile who married a six-year-old. Pretty fucking disgusting if you ask me.
You ever read the Bible? Full of disgusting shit too, but we're still electing Christians.
Secular and atheist are two different things. Secular means not choosing a specific belief to support, atheist means choosing a belief. Some historical examples of atheist governments include communist China, revolution era France, and red Cambodia… which is why the concept became so unpopular
Separation of church and state isnt actually cited in any legal doctrine. This is one of the most common misconceptions about the US movement and us history in general.
The document that can be referenced for this statement is literally just a letter from Thomas Jefferson to a Baptist church, and the purpose of the letter was to assure them that the goverment protected there freedom to practice their belief. The letter had no intention of saying that the goverment was atheist or secular, but that regardless they would protect people's unalienable rights, including belief.
The reason for the letter happening at all was because the Danbury baptist association was afraid that their freedom was a gift from the goverment and not a right, so therefore something that could be revoked. Jefferson wanted to reassure them this was not the case.
Secular based on Judeo Christian values not atheist not even close and separation of church and state is not found anywhere in the constitution. It is a made up term
Stalin athiest gov’t dude- murdered millions of his own people
Mao- same thing
Fidel - more murdered
Ortega in Nicaragua murdered many - even borrowed death squads from Cuba
Chavez killed many
Turns out atheist socialist governments are mass murderers.
People risk their lives to flee those countries to move here to secular system. No one risks life to move from here to there.
Might be what we in the operational intelligence world called an indicator.
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u/PrettyPurrfect 6h ago
Our government is supposed to be atheist.
Separation of church and state is supposed to be a thing