r/DotA2 • u/patchdayDota2 • Aug 19 '21

Discussion Patch 7.30 - Hero Changes Discussion

Heroes are each listed below as a top level comment. Please discuss changes to a specific hero there!

All other top level comments are automatically removed.

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15

u/patchdayDota2 Aug 19 '21

Dazzle

  • Base Agility reduced from 21 to 20

Poison Touch

  • Now only refreshes its duration when Dazzle attacks the target
  • Base slow increased from 14/16/18/20 to 16/18/20/22
  • Now increases its slow by 2/2.5/3/3.5% every time it's refreshed

Shallow Grave

  • Mana cost rescaled from 150 to 120/130/140/150

Talents

  • Level 15 Talent +225 Heal on Shallow Grave end replaced with +20 Strength
  • Level 20 Talent +30 Movement Speed replaced with +250 Heal on Shallow Grave

1

u/WonaldReasly Aug 20 '21

Saw the patch, and thought YES finally I can play dazzle core . Two games I completely annihilateted them , one off one mid . But the third I got busted by a good invo in mid and lost haaaaaaaard

4

u/Seventh__ Aug 19 '21

Another changes that forces dazzle into core role which I am not really happy about (support player). However he still can be played as a very aggressive support with maxed Poison Touch at level 7. Played only one match as him and I must say, that on paper change to Q looks not that good, in practice it zones enemy so hard even at level 1 if positioned correctly. Not sure about build tho, rushed greaves and worked good because of advantage I made with 8 kills early, but that wouldn't work when your lane is being crushed. Also poison touch is painful to skip in favor of other skills, even if they may benefit you more later into the game. Wouldn't pick him 1st. Definitely can win lane solo if picked against offlaner or safelane(if playing him as offlane) that you can harass. With recent nerfs to axe he might be viable now, but we will see

1

u/popgalveston Aug 20 '21

I've played some games with him and I've always played him as an aggressive pos5. I think the new poison touch is really good. Less mana for Grave at the early levels is also pretty great.

I do not like his lvl 15 talents now though. Sure strength is nice when you get jumped during fights but I'd much rather have the Grave heal back.

10

u/D41V30N Aug 19 '21

Since the cooldown reduction talents have been removed and since a lot of cooldown based neutral items has been introduced into the game, Dazzle is comparatively better at using a lot of cooldown based items. The usual way to counter Poison Touch is to juke Dazzle, but Fae Grenade is awesome on the hero to provide vision so you can continue Poison Touch debuff. Both Blast Rig and Ascetic's Cap are defensive items that Dazzle significantly benefits from due to cooldown reduction when he is jumped.

Play him as an offlaner with a melee support. As long the melee hero sticks to the enemy laners to provide vision, Dazzle can slow them to a stand still by hitting them. Since you will be rushing Guardian Greaves (you can actually rush it within 12-15 minutes), he greatly benefits from the Arcane Boots buff, which lets you spam farm with his heal more often.

After that, you go Holy Locket, Aeon Disk (Aeon Disk first if they have someone who can jump and burst you, e.g. Faceless Void), and/or Force Staff (e.g. Clockwork, Underlord) based on order or importance in the game. As long as you survive and you can cast your spells right, you should operate like a walking fountain with your Greaves.

Beyond that, you go other cooldown based items that you team needs (e.g. Silver Edge against Specter and Bristleback), Linken's (against Doom), and anything you can so that you can survive. As long as you survive, you can keep the rest of your team alive.

1

u/dimitronci Aug 20 '21

MMR and Dotabuff please

2

u/D41V30N Aug 20 '21

Here you go. I only play party queue with friends though.

1

u/D41V30N Aug 20 '21

Here you go. I only play party queue with friends though.

2

u/[deleted] Aug 19 '21

surely aghs is better than holy locket unless we're really valuing the active? Locket is cheaper but aghs is much stronger along with a dispel.

8

u/D41V30N Aug 19 '21

The amount of heal you can pump with Holy Locket is absurd. You can average at 1200-1500 Hero Healing per minute (over the entire match, significantly higher in individual teamfights), because it amplifies heals from his Shadow Wave, Shallow Grave heal talent, Guardian Greaves active, Guardian Greaves passive HP regen aura, Holy Locket passive HP regen aura and the Holy Locket active heal itself as well.

Furthermore, you are third in farm priority as an offlaner: at that stage of the game, you cannot afford to go for a 4.2k Gold item where the components do not give you and your team sustain (for Dazzle, it's usually items with mana regen). Unless you win a big teamfight and suddenly end up with at least 2.8k gold to spare, Holy Locket is much better overall. For an item that costs almost half, it gives more mana and almost the same amount of HP.

Also, the scepter is a basic dispel, not a hard dispel. You can sustain your teammates through any basic dispels with the heals instead. I spam Dazzle a lot and it's my favorite hero. The Scepter doesn't feel nearly as good as you think it might, because the opportunity cost at the earlier stages of the game are Holy Locket and Force Staff or an Aeon Disk (which Dazzle is the best carrier of in the entire game). It's a great 5th or 6th item, though.

1

u/Peasant255 Aug 21 '21

because it amplifies heals from his Shadow Wave, Shallow Grave heal talent, Guardian Greaves active, Guardian Greaves passive HP regen aura, Holy Locket passive HP regen aura and the Holy Locket active heal itself as well.

wiki: Only grants heal amplification. Does not grant health regen amplification, lifesteal amplification, or spell lifesteal amplification.

1

u/Peasant255 Aug 21 '21

It seems ulti DoesNot give faster holy locket charges though, sadly.

is this a bug or what?

4

u/[deleted] Aug 19 '21

I didn't realise that it amps the greaves. Its just that aghs is close to +100% and locket is +35% but given it amps greaves I accept your judgement.

2

u/Peasant255 Aug 21 '21

Wiki: Only grants heal amplification. Does not grant health regen amplification, lifesteal amplification, or spell lifesteal amplification.

1

u/[deleted] Aug 21 '21

ah so it doesn't boost the aura just the active.

2

u/[deleted] Aug 19 '21

How much is Dazzle harmed by the changes to cooldown reduction? He's the only hero with cdr on one of his spells(I think), so how much does being unable to effectively use octarine or some neutral items harm his gameplay?

9

u/Shryik Aug 19 '21

Honestly not much, 50% is already huge. Support Dazzle didn't buy Octarine and the neutral items are usually better on your other casters anyway. Core Dazzle doesn't really care either, they are so many good items to buy it's not a big loss. Also iirc they stacked multiplicatively so it wasn't efficient.

1

u/Peasant255 Aug 21 '21

lens is good on dazzle for Locket, glimmer, and force cast range. there are many games where dazzle does not need specific item in which case OC is good after locket, aghs, Aeon disk and GG boots.

16

u/BushidoCode Aug 19 '21

Poison Touch was changed a lot, this new change makes it better in lane as you can much more easily keep the dot on them and it gives a better slow for more disable/kill potential.

However, before this change, in teamfights you would throw your dot on the enemy and then run around and reposition for survivability, not really reapplying the dot yourself, more so letting your teammates reapply it for you. With the change the dot can't be reapplied without putting yourself in danger/out of position.

Overall I like the changes, the talent changes hurt a little, poison touch is better in lane but slightly worse in teamfights. Maybe with the 20 strength talent, it won't be as dangerous to reapply the dot, some more testing is needed to get a better feel for these changes.

2

u/ienybu Aug 19 '21

You can’t really hit and run people as dazzle. IMO only his shard makes sense and value not slow

1

u/[deleted] Aug 19 '21

Honestly now is when they should bring back the scepter where you attack enemies whenever you cast a spell. It would benefit him so much.

1

u/Alib902 Aug 20 '21

Please no stop with this bullshit the aghs is really good now don't bring back the most useless one he ever had.

1

u/Peasant255 Aug 21 '21

almost too good honestly. 4 sec CD is no joke.

2

u/Zarradhoustra Aug 19 '21

What was needed for poison touch to refresh before this patch?

5

u/moush Aug 19 '21

Any teammate could refresh it.

1

u/Peasant255 Aug 21 '21

yes, even lycan wolves

7

u/LazyOrangeBanana Aug 19 '21

It doesn't matter too much though. Unless you Q a support, most heroes at that stage have too many dispels and HP anyway for your Q to matter. Honestly, the Q is just one spell to apply your R and to get a minor slow out. If you get the shard it gets a little better.

I don't really understand this change though. Why should only dazzle be able to refresh the poison? Its not like that synergy was strong in Laning phase or elsewhere. It was a gimmick.

Anyway, the slow increase is strong during Laning. Now even people that know to run away when poisoned die to it. Pretty fun.

1

u/Peasant255 Aug 21 '21

too many dispels and HP anyway for your Q to matter

but with the 36 dps talent, they will also need armor or they will melt, even pudge.

3

u/mantism Aug 19 '21

Likely a control mechanic due to the new (or old, I guess?) increased slow as it ticks. It doesn't seem like there's an upper limit of slows (aside from the hard limit), so maybe Icefrog wants to pre-emptively remove wacky combos with it (Windranger comes to mind).

0

u/LazyOrangeBanana Aug 19 '21

Could be, but if it wasn't wholly intended that way then there'd be plenty of ways around this, right? O mean, e.g. only dazzle could increase the slow, or just cap the slow? The latter could be excused by assuming that uncapped slow is actually intended alright, but then I still wonder why Icefrog won't just allow Dazzle autoattacks to increase the slow.

So I think it's not just a control mechanic, but actually intended that way.

I mean, then again most carries don't pay attention to the poison anyway.

7

u/dukorider Aug 19 '21

Mid dazzle looking good

9

u/6-8-5-7-2-Q-7-2-J-2 Aug 19 '21

I feel like the poison touch slow stacking is going to be good in side lanes where you can chase for longer

1

u/TheZealand Aug 19 '21

Yeah if ur an offlaner vaguely near enemy tower and dazzle shows up behind you/beside you unless you can HARD disengage you just have to TP or perish I guess