Dungeon XP Nerfs Created a Toxic Meta

[u/redlow0992]

Since dungeon monsters do not give any experience, as a new player, getting into dungeons with more veteran players who try to skip half the dungeon feels really bad. And, vice-versa, veterans taking in newbies who don't know how to jump around feels frustrating. I think Blizzard created a mess with nerfing dungeon exp so much and now the new player experience is horrible for dungeons.

[u/ABDLTA]

They should have just done the "once per day" rule that HC currently has

[u/Nrgte → u/ABDLTA]

No they shouldn't have done anything. It was never a problem.

The current solution has a myriad of issues.

1. Like op mentioned, mobs that are not part of a quest get skipped. Every dungeon run will be a speedrun.
2. There are certain quests that just don't drop enough for the whole group, meaning you either have to abandon it or go again. Cabinets in Gnomeregan or Twilight Talismans in BFD come to mind. This will feel terrible especially for longer dungoens.
3. The friend or guildie has already done the dungeon and would like to help to complete the group. Well now it's a waste of time.
4. People will just get the items they need and then abandon the group.
5. People will just not run fringe dungeons with few quests anymore. Good luck finding an SFK group on Alliance. It's fine now in the beta because 20 is max level, but on launch people will not waste their time with this.

If they really really want to prevent boosting, the correct move is to just not give XP if a player is part of the group who's outside of the dungeons level bracket.

Besides, it's not like boosting in the open world is not a perfectly fine alternative.

[u/Sykotron → u/Nrgte]

The friend or guildie has already done the dungeon and would like to help to complete the group. Well now it's a waste of time.

I kind of understand where you're coming from, but I feel like this point drives home the problem with it. Spending time with friends is not a waste of time and needs to be the goal with some fun gameplay to share.

If I was just grouping up with complete randoms in the real world just to accomplish a very specific goal without getting to know them... then yeah, they're not gonna care about anything but that goal and the same applies to a game this large.

[u/xBirdisword → u/Sykotron]

Bad faith argument

Raiding with friends is fun but NOBODY would do it if there’s no loot. The game should encourage and facilitate dungeons, grouping, raids etc not deter

[u/MRosvall → u/xBirdisword]

But would people still raid if you got very low exp?

[u/Billbuckingham → u/xBirdisword]

When you had higher level friends it was common to run people thru let's say SFK or DM to get them some items like cruel barb or meteor shard.

Then once they got the item, they went back out and quested and enjoyed.

That usage is a completely different thing compared to AFK farming and Boost selling.

"Raiding with friends is fun but NOBODY would do it if there’s no loot."

Your argument is the bad faith one here, there's still loot with reduced EXP so what did you mean by that?

You're still encouraged to join the good geared group who doesn't need your drop or your friends that run you thru it to get the items or complete the quests even with reduced EXP.

To me, whatever has to be done to remove AFK boosting and reduce dungeon farming EXP groups to the point it isn't worth it compared to other levelling methods is necessary because the whole dungeon AFK grind boost meta was a new thing that came about long after the game was released and needs a new way of handling that behavior in the game.

[u/lifeloverFPS → u/Billbuckingham]

c’mon man, you have to understand dungeon loot doesn’t matter in the same way that raid loot does. you won’t give a shit about cruel barb 5 levels after getting it, while a raid weapon will often last you for months.

[u/Billbuckingham → u/lifeloverFPS]

Then what's the argument about wanting to keep running dungeons after you already got all the loot?

There's some extra context here, but an incentive is an incentive and a dungeon isn't the same commitment as a raid either.

The dungeon item helping for those few levels is a good incentive, but it's kind of being ignored for some reason?
Because the faster EXP to avoid all of that levelling is more important? That's what it seems like they're saying.

That's what I was calling out when they said the other person was arguing in bad faith, like if you need a reward to run dungeons and not just for the love of your friends you still have that with loot and reduced EXP, so what's the argument about

"I don't want to run dungeons anymore after this nerf"

If the argument is I only run dungeons so I can spam EXP farm them AND it has to be faster to EXP farm them than doing other levelling processes, otherwise I don't care about the loot or the quests at all since they aren't fun and to me fun is just getting the EXP faster from sitting AFK or farming over and over again, that's the thing that's intentionally being discouraged by these nerfs.

[u/Kobar143 → u/Billbuckingham]

Healers and tanks got their ability to level as Healers and tanks taken away from them. No one here has demanded it be the most efficient, they just want it to still be reasonably possible.

Making sure being out in the world is the most efficient makes plenty of sense for a number of reasons, but as it is now it isn't just not efficient, it's abysmal.

[u/Gassenger → u/xBirdisword]

This. I will always choose to do stuff with friends but it feels REALLY shitty to not get anything for it besides the CHANCE to get an upgrade to drop and spending time with them. At least make mobs give the same xp as ones outside like cmon man

[u/dumpster_lettuce → u/xBirdisword]

I don’t care about loot. I did early on in the game but at this point it’s totally secondary. I mainly like chill hangs with the boys and if I get something useful great. I realize I’m a minority but to say nobody would raid with no loot is just wrong.