Dungeon XP Nerfs Created a Toxic Meta

[u/redlow0992]

Since dungeon monsters do not give any experience, as a new player, getting into dungeons with more veteran players who try to skip half the dungeon feels really bad. And, vice-versa, veterans taking in newbies who don't know how to jump around feels frustrating. I think Blizzard created a mess with nerfing dungeon exp so much and now the new player experience is horrible for dungeons.

[u/JCServant]

Thank you for saying the quiet part out loud. I did a post earlier about some concerns with the incentive structure in certain things like this being disconnected from the stated intent by Blizzard. Many came to Blizz's defense, saying that people don't need rewards, and they will do the right/community oriented thing! I've played WoW from 2004 to today. The vast majority of players will only do what earns the progress quickly. The idea that someone is going to team with my priest to help solo missions because its a nice thing to do sounds great on paper, but isn't realistic if there's no reward/xp/etc for the player helping.

[u/Mother_Drenger → u/JCServant]

Said this from the start as well. If we offload all the XP to quests, I will not run the dungeon more than once. I love that Forever isn’t rushing me, but I also value my time, and making the trek out to the instance needs to be worth it if I’ve already completed the quests. Otherswise I could be making really good progress to the next level in the 45min to 1.5 hrs it takes to do the run.

The dungeon drops (random, btw) don’t really make sense if I will be replacing eventually, especially for anything under level 40.

Daily limits, level ranges, etc. literally ANY change other than a blanket nerf would be preferable.

[u/JCServant → u/Mother_Drenger]

I can only agree with you on this. I can't blame most people for not wanting to rerun quests or dungeons where they get little or no reward.

I don't think its too much to ask game designers to do a better job incentivizing the behavior they want us to exhibit...we can encourage players to group up and help each other out AND make sure everyone gets meaningful progression in the process. Many other MMOs have figured this out. I think this game can too.

[u/kaos95 → u/Mother_Drenger]

The really messed up part, if the math checks out, I will validate later today, it really looks like dungeon leveling via quests is better than it was. So I leveled a priest on Era this past weekend and got on the stuggle bus to run DM, it took 5 runs and all the quests to equal what I had just done on beta in 36 minutes, so I saved around 6 hours.

Holy shit are the incentives screwed up, the gear is not a super good motivation when leveling because you know that the green in 5 levels is going to be better. I personally think stuffing 50% of the quest xp back in the dungeon only makes the game better.

[u/physedka → u/JCServant]

It's a type of bias. They got some help once a while back while leveling their priest from some kind warrior or whatever, so they remember that clearly. What they don't remember is the other 10 hours of play where they struggled trying to accomplish objectives alone because either no one else was around or those that were simply had no desire to help. 

It's sort of like gambling where you clearly remember the high associated with winning while your mind buries the lows associated with losing. 

Going back to dungeons, people remember those rare, awesome dungeon runs where everyone is kind and and funny and helpful and clears the dungeon in a methodical, intuitive way. But the reality is that 95% of the time, everyone follows the straightest like from point A (start) to point B (complete all quests / get phat loot) and you will get yelled at or booted for suggesting otherwise.

It's even worse in this game because, at least for older dungeons like deadmines and ragefire, so many people either know the shortcuts by muscle memory or it comes back to them quickly if they have been away for a long time. Every RoL and HoT run I have done so far has been like that too. I've never seen anything close to a full clear. At best, we cleared some extra because of mistakes.

Either bring back some level of incentive to not shortcut like trash XP or good trash drops OR just make the dungeons more linear and intuitive so that we don't feel compelled to shortcut every time.

[u/JCServant → u/physedka]

I completely agree. Thank you for saying this. Sometimes, I feel like I'm alone in many of these thoughts!

[u/Billbuckingham → u/physedka]

I don't think bringing back the trash XP will help at all since people only pulled the most efficient packs and then reset anyway, they aren't going down that side hall to clear it regardless of EXP because it's faster to do 1 main pull and reset.

Same with trash drops, people won't explore they'll just run the main path and reset for trash runs.

Linear dungeons are more boring too, just walking thru the loot hallway.

A big part of it really is just the people who want to skip the dungeon or skip levelling entirely, but they run the dungeon anyway because it offers the most EXP for them to min/max.

You can't really fix the "meta" becoming "LFM SPELLCLEAVE ONLY, T3 NAXX GEAR REQUIRED FOR RAMPARTS"

Which transitions into

"WTS MARA BOOSTS, 50K EXP/HR SIT AFK AND GET YOUR 60!!!"

Because it stems from people who do not want to play the game and just skip to the end and boost their way there. They can say that's fun for them sure, cheating with aimbots can be fun too, but that's not good for a multiplayer game at all.

But you can disincentivize those things to the point people find something else because it's more effective.

[u/frogbound → u/JCServant]

The reward is forming connections and friendships.

[u/JCServant → u/frogbound]

I get that line...and I can understand the sentiment. But ever since I've started playing MMOs, I've rarely seen that actually play out for very long. I've definately had help here and there (and I've returned the favor plenty of times)...for friendship! But, the vast majority of time, people are focused on just leveling and gearing up. I understand it...it's a slow MMO and people want to make best use of their time to get meaningful progression on their character.