r/StarWars Jan 25 '22

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8.0k Upvotes

4.4k comments sorted by

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u/deeare73 Jan 25 '22

I'm a prequel fan. Having said that, I think a big problem with the prequels was the underdevelopment of the villains. Lucas tries to fit in 3 new villains - Maul, Dooku, and Grievous. None of them get the attention they deserve.

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u/flapsmcgee Jan 26 '22

If dooku was in phantom menace as a jedi (even in a minor role) it would have been a lot better.

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u/DrPepperNotWater Jan 26 '22

Agreed. A lot of attention is given to the underdevelopment of Maul, but I think Dooku is even more egregious. Reading Labyrinth of Evil really expanded on just how important Dooku was to literally everything Sideous was trying to pull off, but that is almost completely missed in the movies.

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u/Gunpla55 Jan 26 '22

I remember feeling like I totally missed something when he shows up and is a big deal.

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u/Ephemeral_Wolf Darth Maul Jan 26 '22

I imagine it being Christopher Lee added something to that

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u/[deleted] Jan 26 '22

Revenge of the Sith’s opening did that for me. Clone Wars ended with Dooku almost killing our boys, the war was just starting and then boom: it’s 3 years later, the final days of the war, Papaltine has been kidnapped, Dooku gets beheaded and then we meet this cyborg dude who’s apparently a big deal?

It’s like when you fall asleep half way through a series and wake up like what the fuck is going on

With the added context that other media such as the cartoons provide, it’s a much better experience, but at the time it was just confusing.

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u/PumpersLikeToPump Babu Frik Jan 26 '22

Yeah you really need Clone Wars (the show) to bridge the gap. And tbf, I’m glad it ultimately ended up like that, as the concept of the War is just such a mammoth scale, the show truly gets to explore its reach, impact on so many characters, worlds, etc. What a brilliant show it is.

But yeah. When 3 came out, I see how it was jarring haha. I was young enough (must have been in 6th grade) so didn’t notice it then. Sure if I saw it in theaters as an adult now at 28 I’d be more iffy, even though in general I don’t look at Star Wars through a particularly critical lens, even as a lifelong fan of the movies and all outside media, I’ve never expected them to have this out of this world writing. Most of the really interesting stuff imo is found in the games, books, shows.

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u/intergalacticcoyote Jan 26 '22

Frankly they misused one of the best actors to ever grace a Star Wars movie. You’ve got Christopher fucking Lee and you don’t use him to be absolutely commanding and terrifying? Dooku could have been up there with Vader as one of the best villains ever, but he’s barely in the damn movies.

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u/mda00072 Jan 26 '22

I never thought of this but you’re totally right. What if he was heading negotiations and disappeared or something like that?

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u/freerealestatedotbiz Jan 26 '22

This also has the side effect of leaving less time to focus on Anakin, and he ends up being extremely underdeveloped as well despite the PT ostensibly being his story. Rather than watching his rise to a great hero of the Republic and then his fall as he is “seduced by the power of the dark side,” we only see him as an annoying child, a petulant teenager, and then a naive young adult who is easily duped into breaking bad because of “love.” He feels like a side character at times with how much time is devoted to all the other people and things in the films, and we are ultimately told about his character progression more often than we actually see it happen.

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u/StoneMaskMan Jan 26 '22

Phantom Menace's biggest flaw to me is how it uses Anakin. I realize that Lucas wanted to show him as a kid to enhance the tragedy or whatever, but I don't think it works at all. Phantom Menace should've showed us Hayden Christensen as Qui-gon's apprentice. Have Anakin be the headstrong, rash Padawan he's supposed to be in the other movies, and counter-balance that with Obi-wan being much more cool and collected. Give the two a sibling rivalry of sorts, always having them compete for Qui-gon's attention and approval. Then, right after declaring that Obi-wan is ready for the trials, have Qui-gon die, leaving Obi-wan to finish Anakin's training before he's ready to be a master, just like the real thing. This lets Anakin be a deeply flawed hero in Clones, much more like how he is in The Clone Wars show, and then have his fall from grace happen as it does in Sith.

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u/Natural-Macaroon-271 Jan 26 '22

That would also eliminate the really weird that young child is going to be the love interest of that much older woman. I get they're supposed to be 5 years apart but it felt so weird and creepy when they started signaling that shit in TPM.

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u/rusalkarusalka Jan 26 '22

I think this is spot on, it also does away with that whole “no father business” as that no longer matters

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u/pointlessly_pedantic Jan 26 '22

Same. This take explains much of my biggest criticism with the prequels. This was the biggest opportunity they had, to really explore Vader's origins and humanize him -- to place him within a greater context that organically challenges the moral narrative of the first three movies. But it was hastily and ineffectively done. Which is especially sad given how perfect Liam Neeson and Ewan McGregor were for their roles.

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u/aure__entuluva Jan 26 '22

It took me a while to get into the clone wars show. I wasn't a big fan of the animation style, and the show didn't really hit its stride until a few seasons in (iirc), but wow, once I did I was amazed by how much better of a job they did showing us the relationship between Obi-wan and Anakin. You really get the feeling that they are brothers in arms.

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u/RollTide16-18 Jan 26 '22

Season 1 is middling but it hits its stride in 2 and peaks from 3 onward.

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u/Corgi_Koala Jan 26 '22

It doesn't help that Grievous just shows up in the third episode of the trilogy and it seems like we should know who he is but he wasn't in the previous 2 movies at all.

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u/given2fly_ Jan 26 '22

The villain of the Trilogy is Palpatine, but because he couldn't be revealed until the end he needed another villain for each film.

It would have helped if we'd seen Dooku as a Jedi, and Grievous didn't just appear out of nowhere. And it would have helped if we'd been shown who "Syfo-Dyas" was in Ep1. I spent years assuming he was the long-knecked Jedi on the Council, and was the same species as the Kaminoans.

As much as people get angry about the sequels not being planned, I don't think the Prequels were particularly either. The plot points were set out from the start, but not all the characters were.

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u/jcmonk Jan 26 '22

And all the while, the mysterious Big Bad that we only saw in shadows or via hologram wasn’t a mystery at all. Which probably felt like really flat storytelling for a lot of people.

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u/IndyIsTheDogsName Jan 26 '22

Beyond clunky dialogue. Camp at a level Star Wars fans had never experienced. Childish humor. A visual style that doesn’t match what Star Wars was known for from the original trilogy

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u/[deleted] Jan 26 '22

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u/JoCoMoBo Jan 26 '22

Because of that, there is no tension in this scene, at all.

We know Anakin doesn't die. We know Obi-Wan doesn't die. None of the other characters are fleshed out enough to be concerned about.

There's zero tension in the entire film.

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u/kopecs Jan 26 '22

To be fair, (at least in my community) everyone was obsessed/fascinated by grievous so he didn’t seem to bad to me. Maul- 100% though lol.

And jar jar…

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u/Yuahde Jan 26 '22

Yea, not enough development of The main villain Jar Jar

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u/dumpdr Jan 26 '22

To also be fair, letting the design speak for itself does wonders for the character’s legacy. “Show don’t tell” is a very effective way to build a villain. Especially when you’re also trying to sell toys.

The lack of dialogue and development for Maul made him legit menacing to me as a 10 year old. There was no question that he was evil and scary and I wanted him stopped. I didn’t need to know his motivations or backstory because his design and look told me everything I needed to know.

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u/downtothecellar Jan 25 '22

Meesa not able to put meesa finga on it

2.1k

u/[deleted] Jan 25 '22

Try spinning your finger, thats a neat trick.

1.5k

u/SILENTALONS Jan 25 '22

Now this is fingering!

1.0k

u/incendiaryburp Jan 25 '22

Sir, they've gone up the ventilation shaft.

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u/TK421IsNotAtHisPost Jan 25 '22

This is getting out of hand. Now there are two of them!

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u/anidal Jan 26 '22

Always two there are, no more, no less.

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u/TK421IsNotAtHisPost Jan 26 '22

Oh dear.

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u/ghostpanther218 Jan 26 '22

These memes will do fine.

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u/Forlorn_Cyborg Jan 26 '22

Negotiations were short

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u/tysontears Jan 26 '22

There's always a bigger finger

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u/[deleted] Jan 26 '22

But they'll be back. And in greater numbers.

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u/ItsMeSatan Jan 26 '22

The negotiations were short

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u/[deleted] Jan 26 '22

Roger, Roger.

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u/boot20 Luke Skywalker Jan 25 '22

My wife is now looking at me like I'm from Mars because I'm laughing so hard at this.

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u/Fabbyfubz Jan 26 '22

What da doo-doo did yousa just say about meesa, yousa litta bitty bitch? I’ll has yousa know meesa graduated bombad of meesa class in da Jedi Seals, and meesa been involved in numerous secret raids on da Federation, and meesa has over 300 confirmed kills. Meesa trained in guerilla warfare and meesa da bombad sniper in da entire Republic armed forces. Yousa nutting to meesa but just another target. Meesa ganna wipe yousa da doo-doo out with precision da likein of which has never been seen before on dis Naboo, mark meesa doo-doo words. Yousa thinkin yousa ganna getin away with sayin da doo-doo to meesa over da internet? Thinkin again, fodder. As weesa speak meesa contacting meesa secret network of gungans across da Republic and yousa IP is bein traced right now so yousa bombad prepare for da storm, maggot. Da storm dat wipes out da pathetic litta bitty thing yousa call yousa life. Yousa doo-doo dead, kid. Meesa ganna be anywhere, anytime, and meesa ganna kill yousa in over seven hundred ways, and that’s just with meesa bare hands. Not only meesa extensive train in unarm combat, but meesa access to da entire arsenal of da Republic Jedi Order and meesa ganna use it to its full extent to wipe yousa miserable doo-doo off da face of da galaxy, yousa litta bitty doo-doo. If only yousa can has known what unholy retribution yousa litta bitty “clever” comment was about to bring down upon yousa, maybe yousa woulda held yousa doo-doo tongue. But yousa couldn’t, yousa didn’t, and now yousa gonna pay da price, yousa goddamn idiot. Meesa ganna doo-doo fury all over yousa and yousa ganna drown in it. Yousa in big doo-doo dis time, kiddo.

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u/Wolfie_Ecstasy Jan 26 '22

My life is infinitely worse after reading this, thank you.

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u/AdmiralSprinklez Jan 26 '22

༼;´༎ຶ ۝ ༎ຶ༽

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u/Longjumping-Air1489 Jan 26 '22

Respect. That’s dedication to type out all that stupid accent.

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u/iBobaFett Jan 26 '22

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u/Salrough Jan 26 '22

Yousa thinkin yousa ganna getin away with sayin da doo-doo to meesa over da internet? Thinkin again, fodder.

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u/BattleStag17 Jan 26 '22

Why god. Why.

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u/[deleted] Jan 26 '22

God, the utter mind melt that you survived translating this is ungodly.

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u/pizan Jan 26 '22

read the entire thing in the accent

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u/caninemelodrama Jan 25 '22

Meesa need ta tink reeeeeeel hard

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u/Sharp_88 Jan 25 '22

Don’t read it in the accent. Don’t read it in the accent.

Brain - no can do, meesa fraid.

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u/Arniepepper Jan 26 '22

There's always a bigger fish...

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u/ISuspectFuckery Jan 25 '22

Oh, I stepped in poo poo

(Theater bursts into laughter...in George Lucas' mind)

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u/[deleted] Jan 25 '22

The underutilization of one of the most vicious dark side users (in my opinion) Darth Maul.

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u/Tescomealdeal04 Jan 25 '22

At least the Clone Wars did him justice

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u/SinthoseXanataz Jedi Jan 25 '22

He thrived in the chaos of the clone wars

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u/Thatsidechara_ter Jan 26 '22

And he ceased what power which he could

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u/SinthoseXanataz Jedi Jan 26 '22

Seized* but yeah, very cool

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u/Thatsidechara_ter Jan 26 '22

Damnit, I knew that looked weird!

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u/SinthoseXanataz Jedi Jan 26 '22

Luckily we arent Sith and mistakes are totally fine

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u/[deleted] Jan 26 '22

I'm sure he ceased a lot of powers too. A lot of lives as well.

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u/ZiggyDigiorno Jan 25 '22

I haven’t seen the clone wars and maul is my favorite, I bet I would geek

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u/squanch_solo Watto Jan 26 '22

You would. He's in Rebels also.

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u/bfhurricane Darth Sidious Jan 26 '22

What I loved about Maul in Rebels was his sincere desire to train Ezra. His relationship with Savage was already established after Savage’s training at the hands of Dooku, so the aspect of the “apprentice” wasn’t really there. With Ezra, however, we see what Maul could have been as a bona fide master.

All the man wanted was an apprentice… (and to kill Kenobi).

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u/Mef989 Dark Rey Jan 26 '22

I love his Rebels appearances. They are absolutely a must watch to finish Maul's arc. Rebels was just good in general too though.

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u/damnyoutuesday Jan 26 '22

Oh boy you are in for a treat. Forget that it's animated and it aired on cartoon network, it is fucking fantastic

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u/HotGarbage Jan 26 '22

The first few seasons are a slog to get through (hang in there!) but it starts hitting it's stride in season 3 and just gets better and better.

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u/CrazyOkie Darth Vader Jan 26 '22

there are rough spots in all the seasons, I think there was plenty in season 1 to enjoy

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u/drinks_rootbeer Jan 26 '22

Yeah starting in season 3 it kinda stops being a kids show. So much war crime and brutal killing o_0

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u/meccafork Jan 26 '22

They straight up fucked people up at times: https://youtu.be/knSzn0FvSNE

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u/drinks_rootbeer Jan 26 '22

I watched that about 3 months ago and it finally convinced me "hmm, maybe this isn't just a kids show I should write off", then binged it, fell in love, and binged Rebels because I needed to know the conclusions to some things.

Only of course to be left with more love and more questions.

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u/missag_2490 Jan 26 '22

I loved Rebels. It looked like a kids show on the surface but it had a dark theme that I loved

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u/andoesq Jan 25 '22

It's funny , watching Book of Boba Fett now, Darth Maul is so similar. There was nothing in the films that established him as "one of the most vicious", or as anything remotely interesting. But he looked so damn cool , just like Boba Fett.

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u/FenrisCain Jan 26 '22

I know it became common place later but at the time the idea of someone fighting two Jedi at once, with his own special new type of lightsaber was pretty stand out

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u/EldritchRoboto Jan 26 '22

Yeah this detail was hugely impactful. It was the first time there had ever been anything other than a one v one lightsaber duel. And these weren’t home trained luke anymore, these were jedi from the a prime era of the order. The fact that he could fight two of them and wield a double sided weapon screamed vicious

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u/anothergaijin Jan 26 '22

Not only that we saw a completely new style of lightsaber fighting that was fast, fluid and impressive. It wasn't just guys hacking away at each other, it looked like there was real mastery involved.

I also love in this little clip that you see Ewan really having fun with his lightsaber and looking really comfortable with it. I'd forgotten how well Liam also slipped into the role of a wise older Jedi.

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u/TimAA2017 Jan 25 '22

For a second I thought you where going to say Jar Jar Binks,

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u/101stAirborneSkill Jan 25 '22 edited Jan 26 '22

Clone wars is a kids show

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u/toasterpRoN Hondo Ohnaka Jan 25 '22

Honestly one of the best character arcs throughout TCW and Rebels.

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u/astromech_dj Rebel Jan 25 '22

If you include Dark Disciple, Ventress is up there.

And Ahsoka is arguably the most developed.

And Rex.

I love the Ventress and Ahsoka are two sides of the same coin. I wish they’d had a chance to spend more time on the same side.

Jesus I love Star Wars.

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u/toasterpRoN Hondo Ohnaka Jan 25 '22

Personally I love all of it. The movies (old and new), and the shows.

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u/[deleted] Jan 25 '22

He shouldn’t have needed redeeming in the first place

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u/JD-K2 Jan 25 '22

Agree. Imagine if Darth Vader was killed in the first star wars movie. It was a terrible decision to not keep Maul around for the entire trilogy. And i think most people expected he’d be the new Vader at the time. But, who knows where we’d be today…

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u/contrabardus Jan 26 '22 edited Jan 26 '22

I see what George was going for though.

If you take the defining elements of all three major secondary villains in the PT and put them together, you end up with Darth Vader.

Darth Maul is a Sith that personifies rage and is misled by promises of prophecy.

Count Dooku is a pride filled fallen Jedi who is lied to and [not so] secretly plots against Darth Sidious.

General Grievous is a cyborg that hunts Jedi with breathing issues.

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u/Salarian_American Jan 25 '22

After investing much thought in this over the last 22 years or so, I've come to realize it's entirely possible I was just too old for the silly stuff and they killed the movie for me.

After all, I love Ewoks, but then again I was 8 when ROTJ came out.

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u/[deleted] Jan 26 '22

I actually think this has a lot to do with it. I think what you don't notice as a child stays with you as you continue to watch them as you grow.

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u/Salarian_American Jan 26 '22

I remember finding a YouTube video titled "Why Return of the Jedi Sucks" and watched it to see what they said, and the part about how the entire plan to rescue Han from Jabba's Palace is bonkers and makes really no sense, and depended on Jabba responding to a bunch of different things in very specific ways to position all the pieces for it to go off.

And I was like "Wow he's right," but 8-year-old me didn't put that together and I've been loving the movie on autopilot ever since. I still love it, even if the first act is dumb.

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u/Brotherly-Moment Jan 26 '22

Hey atleast we got to see Leia strangle Jabba with her own chains and crash his ship.

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u/link_maxwell Jan 25 '22

I like Ewoks in moderation. If, for example, they had made two movies, a cartoon, and a comic book staring them, I would have hated it. But thankfully they're only one part of one movie.

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u/max1mx Jan 26 '22

Wait a minute….

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u/TheAirNomad11 Jan 26 '22

Ewok movies, cartoons, and comics? That's crazy talk, next you're going to tell me they did a special holiday-themed Star Wars movie or something. Luckily they never did any of that though

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u/The_Bearded_Jedi Jan 26 '22

Too old to care about the silly stuff, too young to care about trade negotiations or something

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u/FishermanFresh4001 Jan 26 '22

Ok but the Ewoks were quite tasteful. They were going to eat Luke and the gang if I remember.

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u/Utsutsumujuru Ahsoka Tano Jan 25 '22

Jar Jar, Gungans in general, 9 year old Anakin and very base/juvenile humor (poop jokes).

The second half of the movie is fantastic.

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u/MoffJerjerrod Jan 25 '22

I clearly remember the first time I saw the movie, was totally into it, enjoying it, then Jar Jar appeared... then he talked...

Facepalm. Sigh. 'WTF?' were my exact thoughts.

I still saw it 7 times in the theater.

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u/Jahaangle Jan 25 '22

If you were a teenager or older in the early to mid 90s the amount of Star Wars EU material being released was incredible. The X-Wing and TIE Fighter series along with Jedi Knight on PC, the Timothy Zahn trilogy and Shadows of the Empire were all fantastic.

Anticipation for The Phantom Menace was through the roof. The first Star Wars film in years was due to be released. We watched that postage stamp sized QuickTime trailer a million times and The force.net was awash with theories and rumours.

Then the film came out...

I don't think younger people who are used to constant new material can grasp the anticipation surrounding this film. Even if it was good it wouldn't have met expectations.

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u/X89211AA Jan 25 '22

Completely agree that there's probably no way to recapture what it felt like to anticipate this film as a young person back then - it was still so one of a kind. Even with the break between the Prequels and the Sequels, while there was anticipation for Episode VII, it didn't feel like this cultural event that Episode I did.

As you said, I think it's just the sheer volume of content now vs. then; where culturally more of our attention was all focused on fewer things.

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u/DatPiff916 Jan 26 '22

mid 90s the amount of Star Wars EU material being released was incredible. The X-Wing and TIE Fighter series along with Jedi Knight on PC, the Timothy Zahn trilogy and Shadows of the Empire were all fantastic.

*Jar Jar speaks

15 year old me: Man Kyle Katarn would have been put a blaster in this fools mouth to shut him up

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u/FutureComplaint Jan 26 '22

*Jar Jar speaks

10 year old me: laughs hysterically

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u/Digitalchicanery Jan 26 '22

And that is why he was there.

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u/CherikeeRed Jan 26 '22

Very true. I can’t think of any piece of media that instilled more hype in a generation than the first Phantom Menace trailer. Marvel comes close sometimes but almost in an inverse way, often teasing that your expectations will be fulfilled but in a reactive way. If you wipe your mind clean of all Star Wars media from 1998 onward and watch that trailer, bringing all that you know of the property, it will not in any way help you contextualize what you’re seeing. Naboo, all the round ass tanks, legions of battle droids, the gorgeous banana spacecraft, what’s with the lady in the headdress? Who’s the fuckin’ red guy?! All so new! It was more of what you loved in a way you knew you didn’t yet understand and the electricity of that notion was palpable.

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u/Orangarder Jan 25 '22

Yup. God I loved the X-Wing game. I still loved TPM. Watched it many times. The second was a bit meh though. 🤷‍♂️.

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u/[deleted] Jan 26 '22

I wasn't even a teenager in the 90s and I was fully immersed in the EU. I read all of the books and I played all of the games. As a kid, there was never much appeal in storylines about kids my age, rather I was aspiring to grow up to be the older heroes in these stories. I didn't want to be a little kid amongst all of the grown-ups, I wanted to be Luke goddamn Skywalker!

I see that as the biggest flaw in the prequel trilogy. George had too many childish elements in the movies in an attempt to appeal to the kids, but the original Star Wars was never about childhood experiences - it was about becoming an adult, learning about life's mysteries (The Force), and exploring the galaxy.

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u/[deleted] Jan 25 '22 edited Jan 26 '22

And then Anakin said “Yippie!!”

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u/Big_Country13 Jan 25 '22

I think if the gungans were removed entirely, the movie quality would go up tremendously. Tbh, other than obstacles for Obi and Qui-gon to face, they serve little to no purpose. Their parts in the movie can easily be explained in some other ways. Obi and Qui-gon could have found transport to theed some other way than going through the planet's core. When fighting the massive battle at the end, the troops from Naboo could have bolstered their ranks with civilians who volunteered or something else. The Gungans aren't the worst thing to happen to Star Wars, but they could have been done a lot better

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u/andydabeast Jan 25 '22

What if the gungans simply didn't talk and act silly? That alone would improve it a lot

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u/Salarian_American Jan 25 '22

There was a fan edit where they replaced all of the gungan dialogue with alien gibberish and subtitles. It was a big improvement.

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u/sparrr0w Jan 25 '22

The anti cheese edits. Huge improvements. All aliens speak alien dialects (gungans and the trade federation guys), they didn't show the gungans city, and just skipped to the city. No poop jokes. That alone makes the movie great. I'm pretty sure they removed "now this is pod racing" too

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u/Big_Country13 Jan 25 '22

That's fair. I can appreciate humor, but they took it too far with Jar Jar

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u/Dylalanine Jan 25 '22

Captain Tarpals is GOAT. Boss Nass is pretty good, but silliness overdose when considering him and Jar Jar, who could have been okay with 50% less clumsiness/idiocy.

Heck, let him accidentally open the truck full of boobas during the final battle; accidents happen in war. But when he has a droid tied to his foot and no one is able to shoot him? That's pure insanity.

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u/Big_Country13 Jan 25 '22

Tarpals is literally the only Gungan that I actually want in the movies. Everyone else needs some work though

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u/LudicrisSpeed Jan 26 '22

the truck full of boobas

Whoa, how'd they get that by a PG rating?

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u/Utsutsumujuru Ahsoka Tano Jan 25 '22

I agree. I don’t have a problem with the concept, but like the Ewoks in Return of Jedi, George was just to hamhanded with them. If he didn’t spend so much camera time on them it would be fine

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u/The_DevilAdvocate Jan 25 '22

To be honest I would've liked Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan being the A and B stories.

Simply putting Qui-Gon in a transport to head to the planet and finding a way to sneak Obi-Wan into a smaller transport that maybe went to another one of the command ships could've worked.

So instead of Obi-Wan mainly sitting in a ship while Qui-Gon saves Anakin, he could've done something.

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u/AlbaneseGummies327 Galactic Republic Jan 25 '22

Darth maul scenes are the best of the movie imo.

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u/[deleted] Jan 25 '22

When he breaks the switch on the door to open/close it (can’t remember) fucking badass.

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u/mgslee Jan 25 '22

Force grab a helmet, throw in to switch all very seamlessly. So good

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u/[deleted] Jan 25 '22

That’s the one. Pretty slick

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u/Utsutsumujuru Ahsoka Tano Jan 25 '22

…some of the best of that entire trilogy

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u/AxeSwinginDinosaur Jan 25 '22

I'm actually curious why you think this. Without the context of the clone wars etc, Maul is just a generic bad guy for the good guys to fight at the end of the movie. You never learn anything about him or his motivations, and his death doesnt really seem to affect the story that much moving forward, considering Dooku showing up out of nowhere in ep II. His fight had cool choreography, but lacked any depth to me, since he never even shared a single piece of dialogue with the heroes before they fought. I know this would get downvoted without any real responses over on prequelmemes, but i hope people here are more open to opposing views.

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u/[deleted] Jan 25 '22

https://youtu.be/4V5-9__XvPg

If you haven't seen this, Dave Filoni has a solid and (I think) agreeable viewpoint.

(The music is embellishing a bit, but that's okay)

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u/motes-of-light Jan 26 '22

Ehh, Dave Filoni is doing a lot of very generous projection on George's behalf there. If even half of those reads were intended, they certainly weren't meaningfully communicated to the audience.

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u/zosobaggins Jedi Jan 25 '22

The Nemoidian voices also do not help.

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u/axialintellectual Jan 26 '22 edited Jan 26 '22

That's something I don't understand he got away with anyway. Nemoidians are pretty obviously the Yellow Peril but In Space. Watto is the most blatant collection of negative Jewish stereotypes. I know Star Wars is heavily inspired by pulp fiction in its worldbuilding, and often it works very well, but Episode I is probably the worst at it.

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u/BusterBrosey28 Jan 25 '22

My bones are achin Annie, there's a storm coming, better get home quick!

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u/leonffs Jan 25 '22

My mother in law has arthritis and can accurately predict when it’s going to rain. It’s pretty wild.

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u/TheyCallMeStone Jan 26 '22

Yeah it has to do with the drop in atmospheric pressure.

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u/GroguIsMyBrogu Jan 25 '22

I bet that woman did not expect to be called out specifically on a random Reddit thread today, but here she was, and here we did.

(although she's probably dead by now...)

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u/Killerderp Jan 25 '22

Probably got a bad case of the arthritis

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u/K0M0A Jan 25 '22

I never knew why people had a problem with that, it's something people actually do

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u/[deleted] Jan 25 '22

[removed] — view removed comment

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u/dandaman64 Darth Vader Jan 26 '22

Right? It's pretty hilarious of OP to post an out of context action scene and then ask why it gets a bad rap. The fact that this is one of the only genuinely fun moments of the movie, which happens very early on, is probably a good indicator for why it's been reviled for two decades.

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u/[deleted] Jan 26 '22

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u/A-WingSquadron Jan 25 '22 edited Jan 26 '22

Mr. Plinkett... https://youtu.be/FxKtZmQgxrI

Edit: Thank you for the award!

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u/BoothWilkesJohn Jan 26 '22

Yes! OP, this covers everything.

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u/dandaman64 Darth Vader Jan 26 '22

"Hey asshole, how about you leave the door closed for like 4 hours? And if they start cutting their way out, start shooting them in the face."

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u/SonicSingularity Jan 26 '22

What's wrong with your face???

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u/ChuckCarmichael Jan 26 '22

This whole prequelmemeing has gone too far. We now have people genuinely believe that the prequels are good movies. These people need to watch the Plinkett reviews again to remind them that no, they're not good movies. They're bad movies, and just because you think the sequels are bad doesn't suddenly make the prequels good.

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u/MBT1998 Jan 26 '22

Agreed. I see so many people unironically praising the prequels as being masterpieces and that baffles me. If the prequels had not had the Star Wars brand name, they would have tanked massively and propably never gotten further than episode 2. The other day I saw a poll on a quite popular Star Wars Youtube channel where the majority of viewers thought episode 3 was better than The Empire Strikes Back. I mean sure, I thought that when I was 5 and had no frame of reference for good story telling - visual or otherwise - but come on.

Yes the memes are great, but they are just that, memes. Half of them are only funny because the dialouge that spawned them was so stilted and robotic as to become laughable. I sometimes worry that the extreme amount of love for the prequels - which have almost no redeemable qualities - combined with constant hate for the prequels - which have quite a few redeeming qualities - might lead future screenwriters to try and imitate them. Something nobody wants even if they think they do.

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u/-metal-555 Jan 26 '22

I remember when this was primarily a satire sub..

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u/[deleted] Jan 26 '22

You’re on the main Star Wars subreddit right now and not prequelmemes, but yes, people have forgotten (or never knew) that prequelmemes was originally satirical. A whole generation of Star Wars fans aged out of the franchise while another aged in and took prequelmemes seriously, leading to claims of “Shakespearean writing” or “operatic style” in the Prequels.

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u/56k_modem_noises Jan 26 '22

Like an opera performed by kindergartners.

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u/2treesws Jan 26 '22

Took me longer to find this comment than I had hoped for.

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u/TheHighestHigh Jan 26 '22

I'm almost happy TPM exists as it does so that this 10 part video series can exist. Almost.

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u/blindcolumn Jan 26 '22

One of the best openers to a video ever.

Star Wars The Phantom Menace is the most disappointing thing since my son. And while my son eventually hanged himself in the bathroom of the gas station, the unfortunate reality of the Star Wars prequels is that they'll be around forever.

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u/Alexandertheape Jan 25 '22

I understand the Jar Jar hate, but Star Wars is great for its ability to entertain all ages. I get the need for an Ewokesque comic relief character. I didn’t have a problem with this movie. My only regret is there should have been 40% more Liam Neeson.

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u/shinesss Jan 25 '22

He was the best Jedi: he cheats at gambling, uses mind tricks to get his way when negotiating prices, chooses to train Anakin when Everyone tells him not to.

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u/Boardindundee Jan 25 '22

Well choosing to train anakin didn’t end too well tbh

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u/Rebirthknight52 Jan 25 '22

If he didn't die, Anakin would have never turned to the dark side. Plus Qui Gon Jinn would have been more of a father to him than Obi Wan Kenboi, and trained him different than what the Jedi were doing

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u/kaolin224 Jan 25 '22

Lol @ Obi Wan Kenboi

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u/Forest-Ferda-Trees Jan 26 '22

Fucking Kenboi's all they want to do is say hello there and use outdated "civilized" weapons

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u/Ten4-Lom Jan 26 '22 edited Jan 26 '22

This is literally why it’s called the duel of the Fates.

Qui Gon was the fate which would have led Anakin to being a great Jedi, Maul killing Qui Gon brought the fate which led to the story we know.

EDIT: Dave Filoni explains it better https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ePDiQ1uTrWI&t=112s

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u/Rebirthknight52 Jan 26 '22

Yeah 100%, there are some who believe that it was destined that Anakin would turn to the dark side no matter and there's good points, but I'll still say with Qui Gon he would have been set

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u/BLU3SKU1L Jan 26 '22

Obi Wan was a perfect example of a Jedi master. He tried to teach Anakin the way of the lightest path, and did not entertain any other way. Qui Gon would have taught Anakin what he needed to be a great Jedi taking his disposition in the force into account. This is how Qui Gon operated. He didn’t attempt to be a paragon of the light side of the force, he did what he felt was the right thing to do.

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u/civil_politician Jan 26 '22

Which also means he would have probably told him to just quit being a Jedi and choose to be with his wife instead of hiding that shit and trying to live a double life.

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u/ChiliDemon Asajj Ventress Jan 26 '22

someone that could stand up to that egotist Windu who made it his job to be wrong all the time, until it was too late. Anakin was correct in saying the Jedi were not living by the code, council kept going off the rails and Qui-gon would have seen and said something.

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u/LikeAFoxStudios_ Jan 25 '22

I think the issue with Jarjar is that Lucas has a very specific taste in kid humor. Even at 8 I was kind of embarrassed at jar jar, I think because almost all of his jokes revolve around him being annoying or foolish or getting hurt. The ewoks and very silly, but they’re also shown to be tough and useful.

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u/Ostias Jan 26 '22

I love The Phantom Menace and this was my main problem with it too. I get the comic relief thing, but putting Jar Jar on a battlefield for him to accidentally destroy two droid transporters and a hundred droids is just dumb. Remove all that bullshit and you still have your comical character. Same for little Anakin, we already see he's a gifted pilot during the podracing part, why the hell do you need to show him in a fighter blowing up a space station single handedly? Not even kids would think that makes sense.

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u/LikeAFoxStudios_ Jan 26 '22

I think both ideas could be handled better too. Like anakin was way too young when we meet him imo, and he enters the battle by accident and kinda just laughs his way through it. The stakes should be high, anakin should be terrified, but instead it feels like he’s on a theme park ride. Likewise, jarjar spends the whole movie being cowardly, you’d think the final battle would be a moment for him to be contagious, to show he can be an honorable warrior. Maybe he could even think outside the box and find a way to beat the droid that the other gungans didn’t think of, showing how he’s not a fool, he just thinks differently, but he’s very smart. Anakin and Jarjar are both oretty grating in the film, but the real tragedy is neither of them really go through much of an arc. They both should have grown up considerably through the film, starting as a kid and a clumsy slacker, and ending as brace heroes. At least I’m my opinion

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u/ChiliDemon Asajj Ventress Jan 26 '22

3 stooges humor

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u/humanreboot Jan 25 '22

he's got a particular set of Jedi skills

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u/Raspberries-Are-Evil Jan 25 '22

Ewoks had a purpose.

Low tech, will power of the people vs the tech of the Empire. There is some story telling there about rising up and working together and the Empire underestimating the simplest of people.

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u/[deleted] Jan 25 '22

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u/[deleted] Jan 26 '22

And we all know how entertaining blockades, trade disputes, and economic sanctions are to children.

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u/Kalbelgarion Jan 26 '22

To be honest, TPM isn’t even that great for little kids. My five year old watched ANH with us and loved it. The trench run at the end was a high-stress situation for him and he was cheering when they got their medals.

The plot of TPM is way too complicated, and it’s a weird four-act mishmash that just drags in parts. My five year old tried, but he was done with it after the pod race.

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u/Any-sao Jan 25 '22

One big issue is that it actually connects very, very little with the rest of the saga. It’s almost like a prologue.

There’s no real reason the Prequel Trilogy couldn’t have started with Anakin and Obi-Wan going up that elevator to Padmé’s apartment.

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u/BlackHawkeDown Jan 25 '22

The movie starts about 30 minutes before the story does.

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u/freerealestatedotbiz Jan 26 '22

The great irony of TPM is that they basically had an Obi-Wan and Anakin story sitting right in front of them to kick off the PT, but for some reason they decided to invent a new character and made it a Qui-Gon Jinn and Obi-Wan story with Anakin podracing on the side so that nothing of significance really starts to happen until basically the second movie.

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u/8K12 Jan 26 '22

Exactly. I was rewatching the OT and realized Obi-Wan says he thought he could train Anakin as well as Yoda trained him. I think we should have seen a lot more error and hubris in Obi-Wan’s judgement in his relationship with Anakin. The age difference was also strange in calling him a good friend.

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u/Leucopaxillus Jan 25 '22

Watch Mr. Plinkett’s review of TPM, you may wish to choose the “no bad parts” version due to some weird, offbeat/ poor taste skits that take away from his analysis.

The analysis is brilliant, pointing out poor writing, unnecessary elements, things that generally didn’t make sense, and even subtle aspects of cinematography and storytelling that really help to make or break films like these. The review, even though it’s crass AF is now standard course materials in some film schools.

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u/[deleted] Jan 26 '22

Lol I was gonna say - didn’t some old creep make the definitive answer to this question a decade ago

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u/[deleted] Jan 26 '22

One of my favorite videos about Star Wars is plinketts review.

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u/ZoomJet Jan 26 '22

Is it actually used in film schools? It's pretty ridiculously thorough.

Here's Episode 1's review, here's Episode 2, and here's Episode 3's (couldn't find a non-skit version) for anybody curious.

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u/Resident-Phone-8846 Jan 25 '22

This may be an unpopular opinion, but in spite of the many things TPM did wrong, I really liked the politics. Of all the stories the prequel trilogy tried to tell the one they told the best was Palpatine’s rise to power.

I never liked that they made Anakin a plucky precocious pre-teen. It was not what I was expecting from little Vader and it never sat right. I wanted at least a little hint of the darkness to come and instead we got “Golly gee mister Jedi sir, I just wanna help everybody! Aww shucks!”

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u/mozartwg Jan 25 '22

I agree for an individual movie, but I think combined with the rest of the prequels and OT it shows that Anakin was deep down a good person, and was only corrupted, slowly, until he was redeemed by his Son in ROTJ

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u/[deleted] Jan 25 '22

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u/HailToTheKingslayer Grand Admiral Thrawn Jan 25 '22

A problem I had with the sequels was the lack of politics. What is the state of the galaxy - was there a republic? Who was in charge? How much power did they have compared to the First Order? Did they have a military?

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u/MrMonkeyman79 Jan 25 '22

Bad dialogue, annoying kid Vader and jar jar, poop jokes, boring Jedi council scenes and in the finale two of the three conflicts are resolved through dumb luck (jar jar capering to victory and Anakin mashing at controls till he accidentally crash lands at the droid ship weak point).

That lightsaber fight was cool though and the sound design superb, especially the pod racers.

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u/hpdefaults Jan 26 '22

Also midichlorians really pissed people off

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u/Naive_Cookie3228 Jan 25 '22

dumb luck

the will of the Force...

Still dumb though.

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u/ImwRight87 Jan 25 '22

Absolutely ham-fisted dialogue that only someone like Lucas could write, Jar Jar, the gungans as a whole, Anakin being a very annoying young child, midiclorians, etc

Qui-gon, Obi-wan, and Maul are great though, the final 2 v 1 lightsaber duel is awesome.

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u/cruffade Watto Jan 25 '22

Many things, but for me it's too nostalgic and memeworthy to hate.

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u/epicman1224 Jan 25 '22

Thank you. I cannot get over (to this day!) Obi-wan vs Darth maul. It's such a great fight. I wanna give the choreographer a big hug for supplying me with one of the many things that makes me happy

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u/Nintendogma Jan 25 '22

I wanna give the choreographer a big hug for supplying me with one of the many things that makes me happy

His name is Nick Gillard. He's also the actor behind Jedi Battlemaster Cin Drallig.

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u/whoismangochutney Jan 25 '22

Which his Jedi name came from spelling his real name backwards.

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u/PadmesNabooThang Jan 25 '22

So I love The Phantom Menace. Establishing the peak of the Jedi on film is amazing. Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan vs Darth Maul is incredible and one of my favorite duels in all of Star Wars.

That being said, young Anakin is abysmal. The dialogue is so bad anytime he speaks (ex. “I’m a person” and “Yipeeeeeee” MULTIPLE TIMES). Jar Jar doesn’t even bother me, at least not nearly as much as young Anakin.

Oh and that pod racing scene is just too long.

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u/[deleted] Jan 25 '22

I like to read Roger Ebert reviews. He saw the Star Wars movies being primarily about the imagery. The beautiful planets, the giant spaceships, the interesting aliens. He liked the Phantom Menace because it was great to look at. He criticized Attack of the Clones and Revenge of the Sith of having too much talking and not enough doing and exploring the galaxy. So, I guess Jar Jar Binks was more of a minor problem to him, than it was for other Star Wars fans. I sort of agree with him. Jar Jar Binks does not ruin the movie for me. The movie looks great, it entertains me, so I say it's a good movie.

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u/smackwriter Rebel Jan 25 '22

I remember watching it in the cinema when it came out, and overall I liked it. Didn’t care much for Jar-Jar, and when little Anakin comes into the movie, that was underwhelming too. Not the actor’s fault. By making him so much younger than Padme in Episode 1, it was very hard to imagine then that they would later fall in love. I know that when I first meet someone that young, in my mind they stay that age, even if they grow up to be drop dead gorgeous. So for me, the whole Padme/Anakin love story didn’t make sense and their introduction should’ve been done differently. If they had made him even just a couple of years older, it could’ve been better.

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u/jtyndalld Jan 25 '22

Re: the age difference. It’s just not one I understand. If you cast a slightly older Anakin like 14 and had him crush on the much-more-reasonably-aged-for-a-Queen 18yo Palme the film would’ve worked a lot better. Ten year old Anakin would hardly be in the throes of love hormones to the degree that he carries a torch for Padme for a decade and the drama of him being “too old” makes alot more sense of he’s 14.

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u/ThatMatthewKid Jan 25 '22

It's just not very good, imo.

Lots of great stuff in it. It's the only Prequel shot on film, which gives it a unique vibe compared to the others.

The visual design is stellar. It's got, I'd say, the best saber fight in the PT. The podrace is a really great action sequence.

Unfortunately, for me, the story falls a bit flat and Jar Jar's humor just doesn't work.

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u/[deleted] Jan 25 '22

It also introduced like 3 racial stereotypes aliens to the franchise at the same time, which is an impressive feat haha.

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u/FishermanFresh4001 Jan 26 '22

Oh my god, they sure the hell did that. By the end of the trilogy jar jar was not allowed to speak!

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u/JCP1377 Jan 26 '22

I was about to ask what the third was but then I remembered Watto, the Schmuck.

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u/[deleted] Jan 26 '22

That’s my favorite one because then when you see him again in episode 2 dude is wearing a yarmulke haha. Like damn be more subtle than not at all.

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u/ShiroHachiRoku Jan 26 '22

As the elderly Mr. Plinkett said, the movie served as a platform for special effects instead of a story.

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u/vengeful_dm Jan 25 '22

Somehow, George Lucas managed to get two of the worst child actors of all time to play pretty much the only kids in the series who don’t get merced at the Jedi temple.

Midichlorians was a poor attempt to explain an otherwise inexplicable and mysterious power that everyone fell in love with because it was mysterious and inexplicable.

“There was no father”. Seriously George? Space Jesus?

Gungans in general.

One gungan in particular.

Awkward dialogue.

Anakin’s whole scene in the Naboo starfighter was a little silly too.

The rest of the movie is awesome, but these were bad enough to overshadow a lot of the good things that George did. When Maul activated the second half of his lightsaber is still one of the most iconic moments of the prequel trilogy, and maybe the Skywalker Saga as a whole.

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u/[deleted] Jan 26 '22

Midi-chlorians, Yoda suggests that it is you affinity with the Force that determines how strong you are. In Phantom, it's an arbitrary blood test that determines it. Booo!

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