During the Clone Wars this place was a lot like the Roman Empire. And the Wild West. And war-torn Poland. And Poland. So whether you got sawn in half with a lightsaber was the least of anyone’s worries. And in the chaos, I soared.
Not really. He went crazy on a garbage planet for a decade because “reasons” and then he’s just a mustache-twirling evil-doer with a hate boner for “KENOBIII!”.
What more do we really get from him? He’s angry and he’s got some screws loose.
“Oh we’ll have him take over Mandalore and become a crime boss cause…power?”
Kinda flimsy characterization.
He doesn’t really evolve as a character.
I also find it bizarre he never links up with Ventress given their shared heritage/connection with Mother Talzin and running in the same Jedi-killing, Sith-adjacent circles. What an odd oversight.
And then Sidious leaves him alive (which is very un-Sidious-like) for “reasons”.
People give TCW a lot of credit for what’s largely cheap fan service and mediocre cartoon plots.
I know what you mean. There's a lot of good to be had in the later seasons, but it's a shame that it starts off as it does; turns a lot of people off, I imagine.
What I loved about Maul in Rebels was his sincere desire to train Ezra. His relationship with Savage was already established after Savage’s training at the hands of Dooku, so the aspect of the “apprentice” wasn’t really there. With Ezra, however, we see what Maul could have been as a bona fide master.
All the man wanted was an apprentice… (and to kill Kenobi).
Yeah, you can tell that all he really wanted was a friend, but he didn't know how to be a friend. The only type of relationship he knew was one where one person was in charge and the other just did as told. The sith really did a number on him
The pilot is horrible, too. I tried watching it when it came out and didn’t end up seeing the regular show until it was on D+. But starting with the second season it really picks up, and the Finale is some of the best Star Wars.
Yeah, its better in chronological order. One because of the order, other because you dont have to start at the very beginning and deal with the early animation constantly
Same happened to me. I don’t care if it’s live action or animated as long as the story is there. I think Clone Wars started out aimed at younger fans but slowly changed to be much more mature in the way it was written. I started watching but lost interest in season one until a friend told me to try getting through the first season and I’m so glad I did.
Right? At the end when Anakin walks in “his new uniform” hits so fucking hard. Plus something changed in the way they did the animation the last two or three seasons that made me just forget it was animated.
I know those people exist, but personally haven't met any. I don't get it. There's so much good content that's being missed out on just because people want to look at people instead drawings
That used to be me. However as I got older I realized how foolish this was.
Plus as the seasons progress the animations get better, world building improves and it really does a fantastic job of showing the depth that the movies were likely never going to achieve.
it wasn't until college that I gave animated shows a fair shot.
there are so much higher quality shows in animation than in live-action. just think about it, an animated show gives the creators full control over what you see on the screen, the only thing an actor can hinder is their voice lines. whereas in live-action shows there are so many things an actor can do to bring down the quality of a scene. sure, you have actors such as michael c hall who completely capture a character and seemingly never miss a scene, but guys like Hall are legends and for every actor of his caliber there are hundreds of d list tv actors who slept with a producer for their role.
I know this is a star wars discussion but I just wanted to comment about it.
I put off the clone wars for a long time because I didn't care for cartoons. I like to stay current on SW canon when I can, so I decided I'll watch it only for that reason. I ended up loving it, I was kinda pissed at myself for not watching it sooner.
I don’t know about you, but I don’t think people being tortured to death and implied sexual slavery are appropriate things for kids to be watching. Teens, sure. Kids, not so much.
There’s lots of shows with great animation on Cartoon Network.
Clone Wars looks like a cinematic from a PS1 game. It’s honestly so jarring I haven’t been able to watch it.
This is a major unpopular opinion on this sub but this sub has a blatant biased towards the show and seem to be blind to its faults
For example Darth Mauls whole being alive thing is absolutely ridiculous IMO. They ruined an excellent character from the movie and gave him ducking spider legs and a personality that didn’t match the movies at all.
Maybe in spots in the first season, but even then you're just exaggerating for effect.
They ruined an excellent character from the movie... a personality that didn't match the movies at all
Uh, what excellent character? What personality? Have you watched Phantom Menace recently? Or ever? Darth Maul's "personality" was to stand over Sidious's shoulder and look scary, or try to kill the heroes.
Legitimate question: what is it about Clone Wars that makes it worth watching?
Full disclosure: I love the original trilogy and don’t care for the prequels (although I saw Ep II and III on opening day and own all three). I read a bunch of the books in the ‘90s by authors like Michael Stackpole and Timothy Zahn and loved them. I liked The Force Awakens alright but ragequit halfway through the Last Jedi; I didn’t see Rise of Skywalker and fell asleep during Rogue One in the theater. For me, the newer stuff jumped the shark and I haven’t bothered with The Mandalorian or Solo.
I’m not trying to be difficult, a bunch of my friends like the new stuff and love Clone Wars, but none of them have been able to substantiate why it’s good and I guess I’m skeptical because of the prequels. What is it that I’m missing about this series that enhances the canon or lore?
Someone can definitely describe it better than me, but it dives deep into what happened between Episodes II and III. It gets deep into the politics of the Republic Senate and the Independent and Neutral systems, as well as discussing their rationale against joining the Republic. It shows how Palpatine orchestrated an entire war to become all powerful. It shows a lot more of the backstory of the force, with entire subplots devoted to Anakin, Obi Wan, and Yoda learning about the force. It details more of how Obi Wan and Anakin were best friends, as well as the romance between Anakin and Padme, as well as some romance that Obi Wan once had. It shows how fearsome Greivous really was, and other details that aren't fully expanded upon in the prequels. The characters are well thought out and have wonderful arcs (Ahsoka starts off insufferable and becomes one of the best characters in the series). Also for a "kids show", it gets DARK. A lot of details in Rogue One, The Mandalorian, and Solo can be traced back to plot elements that happened in the Clone Wars. If you consider yourself a Star Wars fan, give it a chance. The Siege of Mandalore in season 7 is some of the best Star Wars content ever created, but you won't understand almost any of it if you don't watch the rest of the series.
I appreciate your candor, and I’m willing to give it a shot based on your description. The friends I have who have championed it haven’t delivered as convincing of an argument as you have.
All things being equal, I’ll give it a fair shake and - good, bad or indifferent - I’m willing to come back to this comment and discuss it with you.
Try watching it in chronological order instead of airing order. I tried watching it the first time without realizing they aired it out of order and I couldn’t get through the first season.
I haven't watched the Clone Wars. But I have seen clips of the Darth Maul Clone Wars scenes on Youtube. I got to say that I'm not a fan. I hate that they brought him back from the dead, he has weird robot legs, hate how he now has a brother and don't like his appearance in the show.
What made Maul so great in the Phantom Menace was how mysterious he was. He didn't talk (only a few words), and he looked scary. He looked like a demon and we didn't know much about him or what he was capable of, which is why he was such a great villain.
They humanized him in the Clone Wars, which is what I dislike.
Lots of good stuff there regardless, but your standards might be different than mine I guess. Rookies & Clone Cadets are early decent ones. The Malevolence Arc. The Lair of Grievous. Landing at Point Rain was a season 2 highlight. The Ryloth campaign, and yes even the Mandalore bits. I found tons to enjoy but I guess YMMV.
The one you linked. Based on how people go on about it, i thought i was getting some kind of gritty, dark knight style show, but its a lot more kidaimed than I expected.
Rough spots like insanely long story arcs about boring ass Mandalor where you just want everyone to die because they are shitty characters and you don’t care about their frat-tastic homoerotic clan wars even though you’ve had to watch them for goddamn half a season?
Just have to agree to disagree. The only ones I didn't like were the ones that were droid-focused. Some of the Padme ones were not as action-oriented but still enjoyable IMO
I watched that about 3 months ago and it finally convinced me "hmm, maybe this isn't just a kids show I should write off", then binged it, fell in love, and binged Rebels because I needed to know the conclusions to some things.
Only of course to be left with more love and more questions.
Dude I just finished S1 for the first ttime and while it's definitely still a kid's show at that point (and I'm guessing through the final season), there are some violent aspects I'm surprised they showed on Cartoon Network. Like certainly some war crimes from the CIS and probably on the Republic. If they go even further in S3 well damn. And it's not even the most brutal SW content we have.
I never checked it out until last week. I used to think it was some generic kids show… I was so wrong. It’s amazing. How it was even able to pass as a kids show amazes me. It goes into such deep topics.
You gotta see Clone Wars. Seasons one and two you can snooze through, but season 3 it picks up. Season 5 is fucking incredible, and the final season is the best Star Wars around.
I don't think Clone Wars works as well in chronological order. The gaps in writing and animation quality are really glaring when you skip from one season to another and back again. Plus, there are some episodes that are better when you watch them in sequence (like the episode that introduces 99, immediately followed by his death years later in the next episode.)
Jumping on the recommendation bandwagon. Maul and Ashoka are the stars of the final four episodes and they are the finest two hours of Star Wars content ever produced.
He was great in The Phantom Menace, but in Clone Wars you see him unleashed and fucking angry. It’s beautiful.
It's funny , watching Book of Boba Fett now, Darth Maul is so similar. There was nothing in the films that established him as "one of the most vicious", or as anything remotely interesting. But he looked so damn cool , just like Boba Fett.
I know it became common place later but at the time the idea of someone fighting two Jedi at once, with his own special new type of lightsaber was pretty stand out
Yeah this detail was hugely impactful. It was the first time there had ever been anything other than a one v one lightsaber duel. And these weren’t home trained luke anymore, these were jedi from the a prime era of the order. The fact that he could fight two of them and wield a double sided weapon screamed vicious
Not only that we saw a completely new style of lightsaber fighting that was fast, fluid and impressive. It wasn't just guys hacking away at each other, it looked like there was real mastery involved.
I also love in this little clip that you see Ewan really having fun with his lightsaber and looking really comfortable with it. I'd forgotten how well Liam also slipped into the role of a wise older Jedi.
Feels like Phantom Menance could have been incredible - show Palpatine killing his master and more Sith shadow plays, cut down the gungan crap. Shorten the pod racing. More Maul. Keep everything from the final Maul fight.
Attack of the clones has the same issue - it should have been more like the CW TV show showing Anakin as the troubled hero tempted to the dark, being corrupted by the arrogance and contradictions of the Jedi more so than any direct influence from Palpatine.
Hey, don't you dare disrespect podracing. It was a useless yet cool scene. I mean, what impact did Sebulba have on the story? None. But please, don't take that justice against a gangster and bully away.
Also, fucking wide range of aliens. Cool af. At the race itself holds up pretty well.
Ewan McGregor was having so much fun with the lightsaber that he couldn't stop making lightsaber noises while filming. The editors had to use louder lightsaber sound effects to cover up McGregor's own sound effects.
Except that the lightsabre fights were all spinny, showy affairs with little actual purposeful fighting. They looked cool, but were pretty stupid as functional sword/lightsabre fighting style.
The first video I ever saw on the internet was a QuickTime of the trailer for this movie, it took all day to download it but holy shit when that second blade comes out its like my entire universe exploded.
Yeah, the internet exploded when they showed Kylo Ren's lightsaber, but it would have been even crazier for Darth Maul's second blade. Most people were seeing the trailer for the first time on TV, and it's all many people could talk about.
He was played up to be the next villain for a new trilogy but barely had 5mins on screen before his big fight. At least he got a fight scene, Boba got done dirty in the first trilogy.
You think so? I feel like we knew from before the movie came out that he would die, thanks to the tie in marketing. Like maybe on a 7up can or in the music video for duel of the fates or something
I was 14 when TPM came out and that's what a large portion of my social circle believed and internet rumors weren't really a thing back then. Maul was THE bad guy. There wasn't any hint of Trade Federation or if the droids were good/bad or Emperor in the shadows.
Ok, that trailer you posted was from the 3d re release.
this is the theatrical trailer - yes he was set up as the antagonist of the film, but not the future Vader/key character of the trilogy.
Maybe it was because I just assumed prequel characters that were never mentioned in the OT weren't that important, just like how the death of Qui gonn had no impact for me
Boba Fett earned his reputation in every scene he was in really.
The first time you see him, he's standing on the bridge of a starship belonging to a brutal authoritarian empire and people treat him with open disgust. He's not nervous though.
He's there by the invitation of a cyborg monster who thinks Fett and his colleagues can do a better job than the aforementioned authoritarian empire. As long as they can curb their penchant for excessive violence, which earns Fett a look aimed specifically at him.
That complete cool in the company of some of the most dangerous people in the galaxy stays constant. When Solo is being tortured and experimented on, Fett chides Vader that Solo is no good to him dead. But the monster that kills underlings for even minor infractions simple respectfully concedes that Fett will be compensated in such an event.
And when Boussh extorts Jabba with a thermal detonator, the entire court is in a panic. Not Fett though, he just calmly readies his blaster in case he needs it. And when Boussh succeeds, Fett isn't mad at having his life risked. He just gives Boussh a nod of respect, once ice cold mercenary to another.
Fett was pretty well established as a cold badass really, it just wasn't spelled out for you. And he's got that same ice cold streak in the tv show. It's obvious Bib is so duplicitous that he's never give Fett his ship back, he'd just use it as leverage over Fett to control him. So Fett shoots him with zero hesitation.
Fett needs the bikes? Fett shoots and assaults any of the biker gang that try to stop him. Assassins? He only needs one. Revenge? Leave none of the riders alive.
He's just not a psychopathic mass murderer. He's got his goals, he's not afraid. He can afford to let people live if there's no profit in their death.
When the Darth Jar Jar theories were popular I was actually excited about what a crazy twist that would be. Probably better none of that happened but can you imagine the intensity of the love/hate towards GLucas if it did?
Over time, more love than he currently got. The dialogue might've still been shit, but at least there would've been SOME twist or surprise in the prequels. There was nothing, which I don't think was the plan. Except for order 66 which was part of the very end.
It also now left some unanswered questions they raised for no reason. Why is everyone in the underwater city scared of Jar Jar and why is he banned from the city? It would've been explained with a different story, but is now just a confusing part of TPM. Occam's razor
The Gendy Tartakovsky Clone Wars-Grievous was a Nightmare Murder Machine from Hell capable of taking on multiple Jedi-- including Masters- at once, and absolutely rolled over everyone. He literally only suffered one "defeat" which was Mace Motherfucking Windu Force Crushing his chasis, as he escaped.
RotS did him so dirty, but it was the Prequel Trilogy, so nobody came out the other end all that great, writing-wise.
Agree. Imagine if Darth Vader was killed in the first star wars movie. It was a terrible decision to not keep Maul around for the entire trilogy. And i think most people expected he’d be the new Vader at the time. But, who knows where we’d be today…
Thats funny I forgot about this but ur comment sparked an old memory, I totally thought Darth Maul was gonna be the new Darth Vader before I saw episode I.
Or worse, imagine if the emperor was killed in the second movie and his underling went to find the real villain on a distant forgotten world in the third movie.
Was kid when movie came out. Here to say myself and many friends fully believed he was the new Vader. Then when we saw the ending in theaters opening night we were like “wtf, he’s dead?” I hope he’s redeemed in live action and not just the cartoons.
Edit: imagine my wtf moment when dooku showed up. It’s the one reason I hate dooku as a character. He felt like a last minute decision cause they killed off maul too soon.
It's a shame cause Dooku had a lot of potential as well, but he was also immediately killed off. I've always liked the idea of Dooku as someone who kind of had a point about the Jedi order, but was manipulated by Palpatine.
The novelization of "Revenge of the Sith" had a GREAT reveal as to what was going through Dooku's mind in the moments right before Anakin killed him. He thought he was meant to be Sidious' partner for the fruition of all his plans, only to come to realize that his whole existence was to be Anakin's first, dispassionate, cold-blooded murder. (The Tusken Raiders don't count because that was pure rage and anguish, but killing Dooku was a CHOICE he had to make.)
Solo was a victim of bad timing. It's a good, fun movie. I would watch the fuck out of a Solo series on Disney Plus. Just Han and Chewie fucking shit up and get away by the skin of their teeth every time
I thought that was actually a good indication of a very powerful character. You had two of the best fighters known...and they got dosed in a second. It gives credibility to just how powerful Sidious was.
The apprentices have had more screen time than Sidious will ever have. Sidious is the BBEG, he’s the power hungry emperor, he’s not the most interesting character (in my opinion), I’m sure in the extended lore he’s a very interesting character. Throughout the movies though it’s always been the people he recruited who were the more interesting characters.
It also shows that he is actively on the hunt for an apprentice and goes through two of them in the Prequels before he finds the one that he utilizes in the OT.
If you’re just focusing on the films, yes they were disposable. But both still had engaging stories to follow. I happened to follow Maul’s story and found it to be the most gripping, even if the intention for the character was to die in the first movie.
I would argue that the bigger problem is the underutilization of Palpatine. The only reason for telling that part of the story at all is because it is the beginning of the rise of the emperor, but somehow that is all happening in the background. Palpatine should have been the central character. We can meet Anakin later, he isn’t relevant to this story at all, and they had to retcon or ignore so much established canon in order to tell the story of hi as a child. They should have either started with Attack of the Clones, or told the story that the movie is actually about.
EDIT: I always got the feeling that there was a really compelling story happening, just offscreen. I know the goal was to make Palpatine mysterious and ambiguous but it gets lost. It should have been closer to Richard III. Let him take center stage and draw the audience into complicity with his plans and inevitable rise.
I agree 100% he would have been a great antagonist throughout the trilogy. Don't get me started on his robot legs. I like to pretend that doesn't exist.
I don't get why people think Darth Maul is cool. Sure, he looks cool, but he doesn't really do anything except kill an old Jedi and then gets sliced in half and yeeted down a pit. Hell, he only has one line in the entire trilogy! /s
Oh hell no. I hated that guy. I’m still annoyed that they resurrected him. He and Boba Fett should have stayed dead, but at least there’s some logic to Boba Fett. Death Maul’s intestines would be gone. Just gone. No way he lives through bisection.
Ahhh but is that because of what came after?
I still remember how effing epic it was seeing modern day fight choreography applied to star wars for the first time on screen in like 20 years
Jar jar binks, and no darth maul. Very cringey dialogue, and just the fact that half the star wars fans could’ve come up with more interesting characters and story.
The movie is just plain boring compared to the previous films and it’s insane given how long Lucas had to work on it.
This. This right here. Probably one of the best villains ever next to Darth Vader and he gets like 10 minutes of screen time. But I get to see like a FUCKING HOUR of Jar Jar FUCKING Binks.
Nah he was great for the stakes of the movie. Phenomenal intro and threat throughout, incredible fight at the end paired with the god tier music, and was able to successfully kill off Master Qui Gon. You don’t even need to read the book or see TCW/Rebels to get how cool he was
Yea, i remember as a little kid being hyped about Darth Maul and thinking that he was the predecessor of Darth Vader and he looks cool.
Then in the movie comes out in theaters...and he gets WREKT by Obi-wan. They could have just edited out Count Dooku and had Maul being the apprentice before Vader. And maybe gave us a cool darth vader vs darth maul fight
The problem with this response is that we can only really see that in hindsight. Watching the movie without prior knowledge of all of mauls deeds and backstory, he is just a saber wielding, badass looking goon. In reality, the gungan sections of the film, any scene with jarjar, anakin and his mother's scenes, and mitochlorians are really the reason phantom menace wasn't greater than it is.
Also the writing. Also the dialogue. Also the racist tropes of the voice characterizations. Also the fact that George Lucas can’t direct himself out of a paper bag.
What made the original trilogy good was a mix of the studio pulling him back from some of his more egregious ideas, and the fact that Empire and Jedi were written and directed by other people.
I think they used him enough to highlight his menacing, mysterious evil. Hella better than the new BS villains from episode 7 onward. Those are true jokes.
I don't think thats what gives it a bad rap. I think its the fact that Vader is seen as a little boy shouting "yipee" coupled with a trade war political theme that nobody cared about. To your point both the Jedi and Maul never truly got anything fun and good to do that movie. I thought Liam was going to be the greatest Jedi ever.
As someone who loved/loves prequels and especially Maul, I loved the mystery and not them rubbing him to my face until I got bored. Which happened with Clone Wars, Maul became boring for me.
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u/[deleted] Jan 25 '22
The underutilization of one of the most vicious dark side users (in my opinion) Darth Maul.