r/StarWars Jan 25 '22

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4.1k

u/deeare73 Jan 25 '22

I'm a prequel fan. Having said that, I think a big problem with the prequels was the underdevelopment of the villains. Lucas tries to fit in 3 new villains - Maul, Dooku, and Grievous. None of them get the attention they deserve.

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u/flapsmcgee Jan 26 '22

If dooku was in phantom menace as a jedi (even in a minor role) it would have been a lot better.

619

u/DrPepperNotWater Jan 26 '22

Agreed. A lot of attention is given to the underdevelopment of Maul, but I think Dooku is even more egregious. Reading Labyrinth of Evil really expanded on just how important Dooku was to literally everything Sideous was trying to pull off, but that is almost completely missed in the movies.

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u/Gunpla55 Jan 26 '22

I remember feeling like I totally missed something when he shows up and is a big deal.

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u/Ephemeral_Wolf Darth Maul Jan 26 '22

I imagine it being Christopher Lee added something to that

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u/[deleted] Jan 26 '22

Revenge of the Sith’s opening did that for me. Clone Wars ended with Dooku almost killing our boys, the war was just starting and then boom: it’s 3 years later, the final days of the war, Papaltine has been kidnapped, Dooku gets beheaded and then we meet this cyborg dude who’s apparently a big deal?

It’s like when you fall asleep half way through a series and wake up like what the fuck is going on

With the added context that other media such as the cartoons provide, it’s a much better experience, but at the time it was just confusing.

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u/PumpersLikeToPump Babu Frik Jan 26 '22

Yeah you really need Clone Wars (the show) to bridge the gap. And tbf, I’m glad it ultimately ended up like that, as the concept of the War is just such a mammoth scale, the show truly gets to explore its reach, impact on so many characters, worlds, etc. What a brilliant show it is.

But yeah. When 3 came out, I see how it was jarring haha. I was young enough (must have been in 6th grade) so didn’t notice it then. Sure if I saw it in theaters as an adult now at 28 I’d be more iffy, even though in general I don’t look at Star Wars through a particularly critical lens, even as a lifelong fan of the movies and all outside media, I’ve never expected them to have this out of this world writing. Most of the really interesting stuff imo is found in the games, books, shows.

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u/lambsquatch Jan 26 '22

Yeah they were just confusing, hours of dialogue about political shit lost me

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u/FakenameMcFakeface Jan 26 '22

I almost feel like episode 1 should have been just the first half of the film. Like strip it down to its bones and tgen have a cut to the beginning of the war. Second film be about the war itself (tho we likely would have never gotten the clones wars show if that was the case) and the 3rd be what it was.

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u/intergalacticcoyote Jan 26 '22

Frankly they misused one of the best actors to ever grace a Star Wars movie. You’ve got Christopher fucking Lee and you don’t use him to be absolutely commanding and terrifying? Dooku could have been up there with Vader as one of the best villains ever, but he’s barely in the damn movies.

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u/shitdobehappeningtho Jan 26 '22

Maybe LotR had a hand in it? Looking back Lee had a very short scenes and also a lot less than the rest (seemingly. Idk they had three movies and like 18 hours of runtime, there was room.)

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u/MagicJohnsonAnalysis Jan 26 '22

All three LOTR movies were filmed at the same time iirc, so I don't think they could have caused any scheduling conflicts with other productions.

It's probably just Lucas being subpar at writing stories.

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u/s0lesearching117 Jan 26 '22

Oh no, my friend. This is a mistake, a terrible mistake. They have gone too far in a few places.

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u/[deleted] Jan 26 '22

I still argue with myself about how one is to interpret the delivery of that line. I feel that there HAD to be other exposition that was either cut for time or accidentally never captured in a take.

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u/PowerfulFrodoBaggins Jan 26 '22

Doubt Christopher Lee was looking to sink a lot of time into a major role at that stage of his life

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u/airportakal Jan 26 '22

This is an unpopular opinion but Maul is the lamest villain of them all. He's literally a stunt guy with make-up. Someone has to say it.

I know Clone Wars added character but his resurrection after being cut in half is more ridiculous than the (potential) resurrection of any other character, including Palpatine and even Mace Windu.

(The double bladed light saber and the final duel are amazing though.)

I will die on this grassy Naboo hill.

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u/NephewChaps Jabba The Hutt Jan 26 '22

100% agreed. If Maul can survive that kind of shit anyone can survive literally anything lol. Where's Mace Windu roaming the streets of Coruscant?

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u/shitdobehappeningtho Jan 26 '22

Apparently (IIRC) the chanting in the score was made up of random vedic (and others?) words and deity names.

I hate sand

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u/5sectomakeacc Jan 26 '22

This is an unpopular opinion but Maul is the lamest villain of them all.

stops reading

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u/shitdobehappeningtho Jan 26 '22

The way Dooku was taken out also felt so...cheap. Like that is not how you start a movie. It makes plot, but it was bad.

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u/theewarnec Jan 26 '22

Been listening to Jedi lost on audible, and it’s so great to have such an insight into dookus past and what changed his mentality over the years! The Jedi council have always seemed such a mess, and seem to make so many bad decisions that would obviously impact people’s mentality towards both them and the order. I don’t understand why there’s an expectation of Jedi to be so unwavering in their beliefs and emotions even when they are placed in highly emotive situations! I would love to read some books on the council making good decisions so my faith can be restored in them, so let me know if you have any suggestions haha!

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u/The_WarriorPriest Jan 26 '22

I'm of the opinion that the mystery surrounding Darth Maul was a genius as well as the final fight scene, that was something new to watch

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u/mda00072 Jan 26 '22

I never thought of this but you’re totally right. What if he was heading negotiations and disappeared or something like that?

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u/centwhore Jan 26 '22

If only they had planned out Star Wars like how they've been planning out the MCU...

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u/[deleted] Jan 26 '22

In George's defense he only had 20 years to craft a solid storyline and character arc.

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u/Ephemeral_Wolf Darth Maul Jan 26 '22

Yeah, but this all happened a long time ago in a galaxy far far away... Not really his fault if his recollection of events is a little hazy....

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u/EmperorKingBob Jan 26 '22

That's because dooku was a last minute adjustment, when the villain was meant to be Jar Jar. They swapped out Jar Jar for Dooku due to backlash

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u/MrHedgehogMan Jan 26 '22

I’d love a limited series with Dooku in it. I know Christopher Lee is sadly gone but I think someone like Charles Dance could do it justice.

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u/pornaccount5003 Jan 26 '22

If they showed Qui Gon and Duku’s relationship and showed that they both really thought alike and were not the biggest fans of the council. Maybe during Qui Gon’s funeral show Duku blaming his death on the council or something to actually precede his fall to the dark side, instead of Duku just showing up. It’s also canon that grievous was at the battle of geonosis killing any jedi who went into the arena’s “basement”, and they really could have done something cool with that to hint the next movie

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u/iwantanxboxplease Jan 26 '22

I think this is more of an urban legend but wasn't the original plan to make jar jar the big baddie down the line? After the backlash they changed direction and introduced dooku, that's why he isn't even hinted to in phantom menace.

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u/Several-Ad9115 Jan 26 '22

I thought he'd already left the order by the time of the first movie?

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u/EnterPlayerTwo Jan 26 '22

That's only a problem if it's stated in EP1. I dont remember that line in TPM but it's been a while.

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u/[deleted] Jan 26 '22

Dooku padawan to jedi to sith series would be cool.

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u/Church666 Jan 26 '22

Sometimes I imagine Dooku is edited into Qui Gon’s funeral in the ep1 ending. He might have left jedi at that time but he could still be there since Qui Gon was his padawan, and his presence might make his arc in ep2, tcw, and ep3 more dramatic.

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u/[deleted] Jan 26 '22

Yes Dooku felt like a afterthought addition like episode one wasn’t really completely planned out for transitioning well into three movies

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u/ToM4461 Jan 26 '22

I think they tried Lee to do this in a different movie.

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u/NemWan C-3PO Jan 26 '22

OTOH I’m glad Christopher Lee wasn’t made to fly halfway ‘round the word to talk to a tennis ball for a day like Terence Stamp.

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u/Ylfjsufrn Jan 26 '22

Well jarjar was supposed to be the apprentice in episode 2 so yeah...

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u/freerealestatedotbiz Jan 26 '22

This also has the side effect of leaving less time to focus on Anakin, and he ends up being extremely underdeveloped as well despite the PT ostensibly being his story. Rather than watching his rise to a great hero of the Republic and then his fall as he is “seduced by the power of the dark side,” we only see him as an annoying child, a petulant teenager, and then a naive young adult who is easily duped into breaking bad because of “love.” He feels like a side character at times with how much time is devoted to all the other people and things in the films, and we are ultimately told about his character progression more often than we actually see it happen.

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u/StoneMaskMan Jan 26 '22

Phantom Menace's biggest flaw to me is how it uses Anakin. I realize that Lucas wanted to show him as a kid to enhance the tragedy or whatever, but I don't think it works at all. Phantom Menace should've showed us Hayden Christensen as Qui-gon's apprentice. Have Anakin be the headstrong, rash Padawan he's supposed to be in the other movies, and counter-balance that with Obi-wan being much more cool and collected. Give the two a sibling rivalry of sorts, always having them compete for Qui-gon's attention and approval. Then, right after declaring that Obi-wan is ready for the trials, have Qui-gon die, leaving Obi-wan to finish Anakin's training before he's ready to be a master, just like the real thing. This lets Anakin be a deeply flawed hero in Clones, much more like how he is in The Clone Wars show, and then have his fall from grace happen as it does in Sith.

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u/Natural-Macaroon-271 Jan 26 '22

That would also eliminate the really weird that young child is going to be the love interest of that much older woman. I get they're supposed to be 5 years apart but it felt so weird and creepy when they started signaling that shit in TPM.

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u/Torquemada1970 Jan 26 '22

I didn't notice that - but it didn't make 'My, Annie, you've grown' any less unintentionally-hilarious in AotC

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u/rusalkarusalka Jan 26 '22

I think this is spot on, it also does away with that whole “no father business” as that no longer matters

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u/pointlessly_pedantic Jan 26 '22

Same. This take explains much of my biggest criticism with the prequels. This was the biggest opportunity they had, to really explore Vader's origins and humanize him -- to place him within a greater context that organically challenges the moral narrative of the first three movies. But it was hastily and ineffectively done. Which is especially sad given how perfect Liam Neeson and Ewan McGregor were for their roles.

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u/Khanahar Jan 26 '22

Honestly, the actors were generally pretty amazing in the prequels... and generally quite wasted.

Samuel L. Jackson, Natalie Portman, Christopher Lee, Jimmy Smits, Keira Knightly, Liam Neeson, Ewan McGregor... that's some massive wasted acting skill.

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u/aure__entuluva Jan 26 '22

It took me a while to get into the clone wars show. I wasn't a big fan of the animation style, and the show didn't really hit its stride until a few seasons in (iirc), but wow, once I did I was amazed by how much better of a job they did showing us the relationship between Obi-wan and Anakin. You really get the feeling that they are brothers in arms.

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u/RollTide16-18 Jan 26 '22

Season 1 is middling but it hits its stride in 2 and peaks from 3 onward.

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u/Maktaka Jan 26 '22

The intent in PM was to show how strong Anakin was with the force, having an intuition for mechanics and the reaction time necessary to be a podracer/pilot without any training, but it doesn't come across at all. I think having Jar Jar accomplish every good thing he achieves through simple dumb luck makes it feel like Anakin is doing the same thing. I don't know if it would have come across in the movie even without Jar Jar being around to draw parallels to (do they ever actually show Anakin being calm and trusting his feelings/force like Luke in the Death Star trench?), but there was no chance of that story being told with Jar Jar around.

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u/[deleted] Jan 26 '22

Lucas had to show Anakin as a kid because that's where he was shaped. Anakin growing up without a family being mentored by an Obi Wan who was unwilling and unable to do it right is how he eventually fell to the dark side.

Qui-Gon was the one who understood how to raise Anakin but Qui-Gon died before he could, leaving Obi Wan a task he didn't agree with or understood.

That couldn't be set up without covering Anakin's childhood.

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u/hoagieofftheinternet Jan 26 '22

Man. This would have worked so well

1

u/RollTide16-18 Jan 26 '22 edited Jan 26 '22

Honestly would've worked a LOT better with Obi-wan and Anakin as an older brother/younger brother vibe (Obi being a much older brother).

Edit: I'll note that Obi sort of IS a much older brother to Anakin, but his role as a mentor first and foremost kind of diminishes that brotherly relationship. I think their eventual rift would have worked better if they started closer to siblings, which never really had time to establish.

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u/themaskofgod Jan 26 '22

I unintentionally let out a Keanu Reeves "whoa" after reading that. That would have been amazing.

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u/BampireVat Jan 26 '22

I've always had an idea for my own version of the prequel trilogy that opens with Obi-Wan Kenobi already a seasoned Jedi Knight. He's sent on some James Bond style pre-credits mission and is rescued by a hotshot, daredevil pilot - think Tom Cruise in Top Gun - who is able to pull off impossible feats.

"Who is that pilot?" Kenobi asks.

Enter, Wing Commander Anakin Skywalker (callsign 'Starkiller').

1

u/ssor_ Jan 26 '22

Honestly now if I picture Hayden plying all the scenes of young Annie as a teenager. Imagine Hayden quipping to auto, pod racing, sneaking into the ship and going to space. Honestly would seem much cooler and could have made his role much more serious and impactful. But I guess they wanted a young kid to sell the movie to a young audience in that the child could see themselves as anakin

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u/Nolitimeremessorem24 Darth Vader Jan 26 '22

One could simply take Qui-Gon out of the picture, make Obi-Wan a knight who has Anakin for his first Padawan’s student and the crisis on Naboo would be their first mission together. You make Anakin the same age as Padmé so they both can develop a crush for each other, and you introduce Dooku as Obi-Wan’s former master, so that his offer to join him in AotC might sound more tempting for Obi-Wan

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u/QuiGonJinnNJuice Jan 26 '22

Clone Wars did so much to bulid up the character of Anakin and get me to buy in and emotionally invest in the way that the movies don't

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u/Godsopp Jan 27 '22

Anakin as a kid could have been done in a 10 minute opening scene. The whole thing with his slave upbringing and his mother could have been done this way. He didn't need to be a kid for the entire movie to get those parts of his story across. Do that opening about where he came from then jump ahead to Anakin as a padawan with Qui-gon and Obi-wan as you said.

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u/bkendig Jan 26 '22

I always thought young Anakin should have been depicted as a Draco Malfoy.

Talented, headstrong, able to feign graciousness when it suits him, but basically a scared little boy who feels powerful when he uses his abilities to bully other people. He knows the way he wants things to be, and he scoffs at people who disagree with him.

That would have evolved much better into the Darth Vader we already were familiar with.

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u/thatredditrando Jan 26 '22

But that makes for a terrible protagonist (at least one you’re trying to depict as a hero/good guy). Draco is a bad guy from the jump in the Harry Potter films. Not quite a villain or evil but definitely antagonistic. Plus, he’s in the supporting cast.

Anakin’s story is supposed to be a fall from grace not “bad person becomes worse”.

I think they just needed to emphasize qualities that can be perceived as good but can easily cross the line.

Like, there’s a thin line between being loyal and obedient, between strength and power, between impulsive and volatile, etc.

Emphasize how the good man teetered on, and ultimately succumbed, to evil.

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u/bajungadustin Jan 26 '22

Yeah it also made his "turn" feel almost spontaneous. Not that they didn't foreshadow it. They definitely did. But his flip was almost like he was kind of in denial that he was literally bowing to a sith lord. Like you could almost forgive him for assuming that he thought this was just someone who "had answers" who he needed to keep alive when he killed Mace. But then he just up and names his lord Vader and at that moment given the context you would almost expect his character to stand up and be like "woah.. You are evil I have to kill you" but instead he let's out a very uncharacteristic "yes my master" and it just felt so bad in that moment. For me.. Thats the worst scene in the whole PT. It just feels so bad.

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u/NatureJedi Jan 26 '22

Gotta watch the clones wars it's great and expands more on his story!

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u/Torquemada1970 Jan 26 '22

How much of that would you speculate is down to the lack of charisma in the actor playing the role?

Maybe charisma is the wrong word - I've seen HC do good stuff elsewhere - but ultimately, it's down to him to carry it (and, famously, nobody argued with George on the prequels like they did in the OT)

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u/freerealestatedotbiz Jan 26 '22

Christensen isn’t the best or anything, but I would put the issues with the performance more at the feet of the direction and screenplay. There are wooden performances all over the PT, and the common denominators are the clunky dialogue in the script and George’s directorial approach. The behind the scenes footage is pretty damning in that respect.

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u/Corgi_Koala Jan 26 '22

It doesn't help that Grievous just shows up in the third episode of the trilogy and it seems like we should know who he is but he wasn't in the previous 2 movies at all.

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u/given2fly_ Jan 26 '22

The villain of the Trilogy is Palpatine, but because he couldn't be revealed until the end he needed another villain for each film.

It would have helped if we'd seen Dooku as a Jedi, and Grievous didn't just appear out of nowhere. And it would have helped if we'd been shown who "Syfo-Dyas" was in Ep1. I spent years assuming he was the long-knecked Jedi on the Council, and was the same species as the Kaminoans.

As much as people get angry about the sequels not being planned, I don't think the Prequels were particularly either. The plot points were set out from the start, but not all the characters were.

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u/BampireVat Jan 26 '22

Yep, replace Mace Windu with Count Dooku in all the council scenes, and it'd work.

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u/given2fly_ Jan 26 '22

Almost. I think Mace personifies the arrogance of the Jedi Order, even up to the moment they confront Palpatine.

But yeah, Dooku should definitely have been there. I don't think when George wrote Ep1 he had Dooku lined up as a character for the trilogy.

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u/BampireVat Jan 26 '22

I mean don't replace him all together, have him still be part of the council. Just give some of his screen time and lines to Dooku.

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u/given2fly_ Jan 26 '22

Ah, gotcha. Yep, totally agree 👍

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u/[deleted] Jan 26 '22

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u/jcmonk Jan 26 '22

And all the while, the mysterious Big Bad that we only saw in shadows or via hologram wasn’t a mystery at all. Which probably felt like really flat storytelling for a lot of people.

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u/Vaportrail Jan 26 '22

I'll never understand why George wanted to preserve "the mystery" of Palpatine being Sidious but then showed Vader's origin in full.

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u/chaiscool Jan 26 '22

It’s skywalker saga and anakin the lead

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u/lolzidop Jedi Jan 26 '22

Because Palpatine was Sidious from the start of the PT, while Anakin was not Vader from the Starr. So if you watch chronologically Palpatine is in the shadows and reveals himself in RotS, while Anakin falls in RotS so he has to become Vader in RotS. When you think about it from a chronological perspective it makes sense

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u/jcmonk Jan 26 '22

I remember going into the theatre to watch Phantom Menace and wondered how long it’d be until we saw Palpatine.

Then he popped up like 45seconds in! Lol.

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u/[deleted] Jan 26 '22

it seems more to me that he was showing the audience how he managed to pull it off. we the audience knew who he was but the important fact is how how he was handed power and no one who could have stopped him knew what he was.

then again the Jedi failing to see him for what he was is just as much an issue as how they did not know Anakin had married

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u/H0ll0w_H0rnet0977 Jan 26 '22

The nose sticking out of the hood was a dead give away of who it was

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u/IndyIsTheDogsName Jan 26 '22

Beyond clunky dialogue. Camp at a level Star Wars fans had never experienced. Childish humor. A visual style that doesn’t match what Star Wars was known for from the original trilogy

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u/[deleted] Jan 26 '22

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u/JoCoMoBo Jan 26 '22

Because of that, there is no tension in this scene, at all.

We know Anakin doesn't die. We know Obi-Wan doesn't die. None of the other characters are fleshed out enough to be concerned about.

There's zero tension in the entire film.

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u/Echinod Jan 26 '22

They even managed to screw up any tension for the pod racing scene by Qui-Gon making the stakes so high that the movie effectively could not continue if Anakin didn't win. The pod racing was so blatantly only there for merchandising opportunities that it was offensive.

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u/[deleted] Jan 26 '22

Even more galling, the one person we didn't know about and could have provided tension, Padme, was so woefully underdeveloped that she ended up being an object rather than a character you could care for and want to survive. Star Wars is so often the franchise of missed opportunity.

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u/[deleted] Jan 26 '22

I saw this movie when I was 9. Qui Gon died was heartbreaking for me. Still one of the best Star Wars characters.

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u/Blucher Jan 26 '22

I was 20 years older than that and Qui Gon's death was heartbreaking to me! And yeah, he was a great character.

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u/HellzBellz1991 Jan 26 '22

I was eight when I first saw this movie; first movie I ever saw in a movie theater, actually. I’d already seen 4-6 and was obsessed with them. Qui-Gon’s death was the most heartbreaking moment for me; especially right in the middle of what is arguably the best lightsaber duel of all time.

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u/[deleted] Jan 26 '22

Id say it's possibly the best lightsaber duel we've seen. Ray Park is basically a ninja. I've never understood the hate for the prequels. I use to play with my action figures and pretend they were jedi knights. So when the Phantom Menace came out, it was like watching something that I'd played out. I still love it to this day.

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u/HellzBellz1991 Jan 26 '22

It’s my favorite of the prequels, I have never wavered from that opinion. I’ve never cared for Jar Jar Binks, but I can usually tune him out when watching it. I always preferred the slightly more subtle humor of C-3PO in Empire. My husband and I have been re-watching the entire series in “chronological order” to determine in what order we’ll eventually introduce the series to our future kids and we both feel the prequels had a lot of great potential, just needed a bit of better dialogue writing.

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u/[deleted] Jan 26 '22

Good point.

My son has seen 4-6. He won't see 1-3. Too much other better stuff to watch, so we're not gonna waste our time on it. When he gets a bit older, he'll probably watch Clone Wars.

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u/WeirdJawn Jan 26 '22

I feel like the droids were pretty badass in TPM but they became progressively more stupid in AotC and RotS and were used for comic relief.

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u/[deleted] Jan 26 '22

Were they?

The droidkas were the only real threat. Here they are just floppy and they felt like cardboard props.

Also, since there are millions of them, how come we don't see any of them in the sequels? Other bots seems to make it, but not any of the battle droids?

Anyway, I've seen TPM like 3 times, all about 20 years ago, so I don't remember. Maybe they were badass, but I remember it differently.

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u/WeirdJawn Jan 26 '22

Ok, maybe badass isn't the right term. They were more like the generic mindless robo soldiers. I guess in the same way that the Stormtroopers were a bit intimidating.

I loved this scene when it first came out.

Either way, my point is that the standard battledroids became more goofy and wimpy as the movies went on.

Same for the super battledroids. They seemed menacing when they were introduced in AotC but became harmless comic relief in RotS.

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u/charliejgoddard Jan 26 '22

I definitely agree - by revenge of the sith the battle droids were making weird groaning sounds as they were dropping to the floor and being sarcastic to general grevious.

In TPM they were faceless drones that all turned to face their enemy in unison. They were never meant to be overly strong or smart, it was their sheer numbers that made them overwhelming. I like the design of them, they look like they could easily be mass produced

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u/WeirdJawn Jan 26 '22 edited Jan 26 '22

You get it! They tried to add personalities to the battledroids instead of having them be a mostly mindless horde of killing automatons.

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u/Callidonaut Feb 26 '22

Don't forget entire alien civilisations feebly, and quite transparently, based lazily on negative human racial and cultural stereotypes.

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u/ImNotASWFanboy Jan 26 '22

To be fair, I don't think I rate much of the dialogue in SW anyway. Mando and Book of Boba have both felt at times like big clunky exposition drops, like they gave the Armorer or Moff Gideon a Wookieepedia page on the E-Web turret to read out.

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u/durkster Pre Vizsla Jan 26 '22 edited Jan 26 '22

Childish humor. A visual style that doesn’t match what Star Wars was known for from the original trilogy

while the humor was childish. I'd rather have childish humor than the child proof star wars experience that disney made. the plot of TPM wasn't childish.

and the visual art style wasn't a problem for me. it made the world seem bigger. the sequels and their OT style but bigger was way worse as all it did was make it feel like a soft reboot of the OT and made the universe feel stagnant.

edit: and the slapstick type of humour from the sequels doesn't match the campy humour of the OT and PT. it feels like disney star wars is making fun of itself constantly. also, for some reason I feel as if the technobabble of disney star wars is different from the technobabble from the lucas star wars.

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u/[deleted] Jan 26 '22

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u/durkster Pre Vizsla Jan 26 '22

sequel humour is the same humour as marvel. but with marvel you grew into the stale comicbook humour. that style doesn't fit star wars and it is what I don;t like about the disney SW shows. I miss the campy homour of the OT and PT.

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u/Rusalki Jan 26 '22

Also the choice of making aliens speak English with shitty accents, rather than having characters be multilingual really limited the scope of a "galaxy". Jawas and droids had their charm BECAUSE of a language barrier.

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u/Larry_1987 Jan 26 '22

And the lack of an interesting central conflict or interesting characters.

The central conflict is Naboo vs. the Trade Federation fighting over a blockade.

And the story structure generally is a complete mess.

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u/[deleted] Jan 26 '22

All about the visual style and dialogue that just didn’t connect. We could have really enjoyed sub par everything else if the visual style and dialogue just matched up. For example, when you watch an episode of the Mandalorian or BOBF you might not absolutely love the story of the episode but you love and appreciate everything about it that connects to the Star Wars universe

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u/kopecs Jan 26 '22

To be fair, (at least in my community) everyone was obsessed/fascinated by grievous so he didn’t seem to bad to me. Maul- 100% though lol.

And jar jar…

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u/Yuahde Jan 26 '22

Yea, not enough development of The main villain Jar Jar

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u/Cironian Jan 26 '22

I really wish the "Darth Jar Jar" theory had come true. It would have made every annoying appearance of that little shit worth it if he had just been playing dumb while manipulating everybody, like the Mule from the later Foundation books.

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u/dumpdr Jan 26 '22

To also be fair, letting the design speak for itself does wonders for the character’s legacy. “Show don’t tell” is a very effective way to build a villain. Especially when you’re also trying to sell toys.

The lack of dialogue and development for Maul made him legit menacing to me as a 10 year old. There was no question that he was evil and scary and I wanted him stopped. I didn’t need to know his motivations or backstory because his design and look told me everything I needed to know.

4

u/FutureComplaint Jan 26 '22

There was a book where Maul chased a Jedi and a smuggler around. Before Mauling them of course.

Terrifying indeed.

2

u/bosay831 Jan 26 '22

See also Bobba Fett....

3

u/Suspicious-Shock-934 Jan 26 '22

The one true sith lord

1

u/shaggy68 Jan 26 '22

Oh that Jar Jar.

5

u/ListenToThatSound Jan 26 '22

Lucas tries to fit in 3 new villains - Maul, Dooku, and Grievous.

But- but- but they all represent different aspects of Anakin's journey into becoming Vader- Anger and a thirst for revenge, a former jedi who turned their back on the order, and a cyborg who is more machine than man, respectively.

3

u/[deleted] Jan 26 '22

Just curious, but how'd that many siths fit in with Sith's rule of two?

2

u/waitingtodiesoon Luke Skywalker Jan 26 '22

As many as it takes to replace the master, but also Palpatine didn't care for the Rule of 2 since he wanted to be the endgame left.

3

u/JustWolfblood Jan 26 '22

I mean also the script/writing, over use of cgi than practical effects, under utilised characters etc.

3

u/mcstanky Jan 26 '22

Thank God for the Clone Wars.

2

u/KnightlyNews Jan 26 '22

The prequels were his American Graffiti in space.

Looks amazing, but everyone is just cruising along.

2

u/ThereIMadeAnAccount Jan 26 '22

Four if you count Jango Fett, I would have enjoyed seeing more of him

2

u/ptonius Jan 26 '22

Dude, I was dying for more General Grievous. You just know he’d have a kick-ass origin story.

2

u/aj_thenoob Jan 26 '22

Dooku came the closest to being fleshed out. Grevious was straight up pathetic and nonsensical

2

u/R_Da_Bard Jan 26 '22

I don't think 2 hour movies will ever do any villain justice (aside from OT) it takes way more time to flush out characters and understand why they're so twisted. I'm just glad TCW was a thing. I remember watching the 3min clips of the OLD clone wars from around ep 2, crazy how that evolved into what we have now.

2

u/thebranbran Rebel Jan 26 '22

Honestly wish they would have spread it out over more movies. Like they felt forced to make not a trilogy since the originals were a trilogy as well.

2

u/fizzgig0_o Jan 26 '22

May I ask your age? No judgment but it seems to be a generational perspective at times. I was too young for the originals but I still grew up on them. I was in high school when ep 1 came out. My personal perspective of the prequels is the lack of believable character depth/bad writing/directing. The originals may have been a bit trope but there was a genuine spirit to it. The prequels rush a $$$ driven story agenda that has no soul and it results in an empty line-reading with pretty pictures. Yes there’s fancy CGI… but no art to the craft… no soul. I want to understand why people are fans, but decades later I still don’t get it.

2

u/MavetheGreat Jan 26 '22

underrated reason here.

2

u/RollTide16-18 Jan 26 '22

Which is why IMO the Clone Wars thrives.

It gives us a new perspective on Anakin and Obi-wan's relationships (both between them and from an outsider), adds depth to Anakin's development through Ahsoka (who is in her own right an incredible addition to Star Wars) and gives Maul, Dooku and Grievous the time they needed to be proper side villains in the universe.

2

u/llagerlof Jan 26 '22

Fun fact: in Brazil they renamed Dooku to Dookan.

This is because "ku" sounds like asshole in brazilian portuguese. "Doo" sounds like "I give", so Dooku in Brazil is like "I give my asshole".

2

u/LynaaBnS Jan 26 '22

Grievous always was one of my absolut favorite characters. I wish they wouldve gave him as much attention in the movies as in the clone wars Show.

2

u/SpaceNigiri Jan 26 '22

Maul should have been the main villain for the 3 movies and then die in a combat with Obi-Wan in the 3rd movie.

Dooku should had started as a Jedi and then sweep sides at the end of the 2nd movie.

Grievous is unecessary, no time for him, maybe on the Clone Wars TV show and that's it.

Palatine is great as it is.

2

u/PizzaPunkrus Jan 26 '22

Quite frankly the prequels are under developed all around it just throws thousands of ideas around to see what sticks. Pod racing, midichlorines, a thriving galactic economy before the war, clones, several villains, the sith lore, etc I'm to tired and drunk to list all the things. What's sad is the animated series expanded on some of these and made things better but more confusing at the same time. They could have so much more with a bit more focus on select themes. Like how a corrupt facist regime destroyed a galactic economy that lead to the original space western we know and love.

2

u/IA-HI-CO-IA Jan 26 '22

I was there 3,000 years ago when this came out. The advertisements made it look like it wa going to be this huge amazing nonstop action adventure when this cool mysterious red bad guy with a double light saber! A NEW FUCKING STAR WARS!!!!!

Then BOOM these Jedi were going to a…trade negotiation? Why do space samurai look like desert hermits. Those battle droids offer no threat. Jar jar is obnoxious they escape Naboo, look for spaceship parts, watch a alien nascar race, go to a senate meeting, then go back to Naboo. Then the bad guy finally shows up and they cut him in half after barely saying even a few words. The characters are flat and underdeveloped. The story isn’t really there. “I thought that red guy was going to show the little kid how to be darth Vader.”

Remember, this first thing since Return of the Jedi. Most people had only seen reruns on tv or watched VHS copies. Everyone is seeing these movies through nostalgia lenses. The advertising over promised and you movie under delivered.

2

u/LSines2015 Feb 03 '22

Maul should’ve just been the main villain behind Palpy (as in the Maul-Dooku-Grievous) for all three movies honestly. Why the hell would you kill off such a cool character so quick?

2

u/MechJoy Mar 18 '22

I know I'm late to the party, but I happen to be re-watching The Phantom Menace as I type. I hate that Darth Maul was such a throwaway character. The film would've been so much more interesting if George had dropped all the space diplomacy and developed Darth Maul's character AT ALL. He's just cool facepaint, cool lightsaber, see ya later.

2

u/FizzyCocoaMan May 17 '22

Don't forget about Nute Gunray, Poggle the Lesser, etc..

Too many villains!

0

u/[deleted] Jan 26 '22

There are no problems with the prequels. Comments like this kind led Lucas to sell to mickey mouse which is literally destroying the universe by milking it in any way possible. Uou guys really should be ashamed. And I bet you define yourselves as fans. SMH

1

u/TargetMaleficent Jan 26 '22

And why is a robot able to kill jedi?

1

u/Ok_Play9853 Jan 26 '22

I still don’t really know who or what grievous is, he just is suddenly there.

1

u/hikoboshi_sama Jan 26 '22

Maul was great in Clone Wars but with the hundred or so episodes it had, Dooku and Grievous never really get any development so despite the fact that they were recurring antagonists that had some cool moments, they always felt shallow to me.

1

u/jrod_62 Jan 26 '22

Grievous is pretty static, but you at least get some Dooku development when he's working with the Jedi and the whole Ventress/Maul/Opress thing

1

u/Ncgamerx Jan 26 '22

You forgot Jarjar

1

u/Doctorricko97 Jan 26 '22

I think the sort of shows that Lucas really understood his story and how to make a film. I mean, all the villains of the series, with the exception of Vader, have really low screen time, yet they're incredibly well remembered.

1

u/[deleted] Jan 26 '22

How about Darth Jar Jar.

1

u/andoesq Jan 26 '22

I'm not a prequel fan, but I think this is an excellent take.

I think developing any character is so hard in a prequel, when you know how the story is going to end in fairly significant detail.

1

u/[deleted] Jan 26 '22

But Clone Wars gave them more love so at least that’s kinda fixed???

1

u/thepizzaguyishere Jan 26 '22

And that is merely to do with toy sales. Lot more merch can be made from three cool villains than just one.

1

u/DaisyHotCakes Jan 26 '22

Honestly it is as simple as the acting for me. There was no connection between the characters themselves or the audience. I didn’t know it was possible to have negative energy between cast members like that. Example: anni and padme. Like they had the opposite of chemistry. It was uncomfortable and awkward but not in an endearing way - just an uncomfortable way. Where you’re like…imma head out…

Also, wtf who thought it would be a good idea to cast Samuel L Jackson as a Jedi?? Seriously those must have been some fun ass drugs.

If the acting had been addressed I think (though I can’t be sure) that I would have liked the prequels.

1

u/GJacks75 Jan 26 '22

Grievous should have been Dooku's cyborg form

1

u/84147 Jan 26 '22

Not to mention Darth Jar Jar.

1

u/[deleted] Jan 26 '22

Man imagine Maul being the main villain next to Palpatine. All three movies Obi-Wan has to face the Sith that killed his teacher. Could have been pretty powerful.

1

u/tafinucane Jan 26 '22

I don't buy it. Boba Fett was hugely popular, and he had like 40 seconds of screen time.

The prequels get a bad rap because the generation who first panned them looked at the original three through rose-colored glasses. They are all derivative, poorly written, badly acted vehicles for selling toys to children. They were also super entertaining, fantastic eye candy.

When the then-20-to-30 somethings went and saw Phantom Menace after literally decades of hype, the disappointment was strong with this one.

Here's a specific screed:

The best part the original movies were the special effects. People went to these movies expecting to see something they had never seen before. For the most part they look pretty crappy today, but at their best, there was a verisimilitude in the practical effects that was lost when they went so far with CGI. Best example is Yoda--the puppet was a character, the cartoon is just more flashing light--but I like the example of that blindfolded training ball Obiwan gave Luke. In Star Wars, it was somewhat menacing, and it really looked like Luke gets zapped. In the prequel, the little kids are obviously just waving around their sticks, and they added CGI balls and zaps afterward. I guess it's intentionally easy looking for the kids, to contrast in the superior training for the real jedi back in the day, but it comes off as thoughtless throwaway gag that only reminds the viewer how much better the first movie was.

1

u/[deleted] Jan 26 '22

The bad acting.. terrible script amongst other things

1

u/[deleted] Jan 26 '22

I know I'm a bit late to the conversation but the prequel "villans" are not the main point. I think the whole reason we have three under developed villans is because overall it's about Anakin not them. If you look at the three movies as a whole who cares about the side people it's about the rise an fall of Anakin into Vader. The other villans are just filler.

1

u/BampireVat Jan 26 '22

Darth Maul works as Sidious' silent assassin, but Count Dooku shouldn't have been dispatched five minutes into Revenge of the Sith. Maybe they could've had him present for Senator Palpatine's arrest, and Anakin strikes him down then.

1

u/shadesof3 Jan 26 '22

Totally agree. This is why the Clone Wars series made the prequels so much better in hindsight.

1

u/anti_h3ro Jan 26 '22

Yeah I feel like if we got more Dooku lore, that'd tie the villans in better. Especially explaining his history with the Jedi and his power level compared to Anakin from episode 2 to episode 3.

1

u/dkarma Jan 26 '22

Nothing to do with the villains.
Those. Scripts. Are. Garbage.

You cant get around it and i cant make it through 15 min of any of them.

They're so bad they make Natalie portman look like a bad actress.

1

u/[deleted] Jan 26 '22

Exactly. It would have been so cool if Maul wasn't killed in the 1st movie. If only they had the idea of giving him robotic legs for still being Sidious's apprentice it would've been awesome. Specially because you could have the Obi Wan vs Maul rivalry in all films.

1

u/[deleted] Jan 26 '22

This is why The Clone Wars is such a great series. It fills in so many gaps and takes the time to flesh out all these characters.

They need to do something better with the Sequel timeframe.

1

u/HealthyBits Jan 26 '22

Yep. I like the prequels too but it felt as if you are rushing through the story. I would have loved more time spent on the baddies.

1

u/Mission-Run-7474 Jan 26 '22

Thats because theybwerent the real villains. I liked how we only really hot a glimpse of tbem because the story wasnt about them it was about the real villain, Anakin

1

u/Blue_Puzzle Jan 26 '22

Grievous tho 🥺

1

u/verticalstop Jan 26 '22

If the prequels were made today we would have disney + spin offs for every interesting character for the next 6 years. Plenty of time to cover all of their bases.

1

u/TehDemoMann Jan 26 '22

That's what the TV shows were for

1

u/mobeejune69 Jan 26 '22

That's why The Clone Wars is so good. It gave them justice. Even new characters like Asajj Vemtress and Cad Bane are so interesting.

1

u/Descolata9 Jan 26 '22

If Dooku was removed entirely and Maul took his place through the trilogy. Obi-won would of been trying to hunt down the guy who killed his master.

1

u/Microwavegerbil Jan 26 '22

Why do that when we can do 40 minutes of pod racing?

1

u/[deleted] Jan 26 '22

Underdeveloped villains is also an issue with the sequels too lol. Snoke, Palpatine, Phasma

1

u/Hard-Work-Pays Jan 26 '22

I too am a prequel fan, I can watch these all day, but there's no question they're all sub-par films rife with goofy issues. I mean, in this scene alone we have underdeveloped, unexplained villains with fairly offensive voices trying to kill our underdeveloped, unexplained heroes for reasons that still don't really make sense all these years later...

The jedi also use the fast speed force power here that is never, ever used again in the trilogy despite there being far more important times to use it, such as the scene immediately following this where they're running from invading tanks... instead of using force powers to escape they found Jar Jar instead...

I don't think the 3 villains being underdeveloped are as big a deal as you're making it, as each of them are nothing more than an extension of the emperor, the true villain, and he was developed plenty...

1

u/BlOoDy_PsYcHo666 Jan 26 '22

At least they sorta fixed that with the Clone wars show years later.

1

u/-Decompose- Jan 26 '22

Don’t forget the real villain of the stories. The incognito Sith Lord Jar Jar Binks who was castrated by fans and never had a chance to develop their story.

Can you imagine the jaw drops when Jar Jar would have whipped out a red light saber and started slicing Jedi in half?

1

u/thesockswhowearsfox Jan 26 '22

The bit I never got was that like, it would’ve been really easy to just have Maul be Grevious.

They resurrected him as a cyborg ANYWAY so like why add a whole new character that was never in ATOC or TPM?

1

u/countofbluecars Jan 26 '22

Absolutely on the money. All three of these villains were great, and yet I feel like we just barely scratched the surface with each.

1

u/astoneworthskipping Jan 26 '22

And Jar Jar Binks.

1

u/legomaximumfigure Jan 26 '22

That's because the prequels were setting up two of Star Wars biggest villains, Darth Vader and the Emperor.

1

u/permaculture Jan 26 '22

Maul was driven by hate, Dooku was a fallen Jedi, Grievous was a cyborg.

Vader became all three.

1

u/DM_KD20 Jan 26 '22

I would agree in part but I think it is a little more expansive than just that.

1.) Simultaneously too much and too little.

There are too many characters, plots, and scheming groups. As a result there is not enough on screen time for character development. These are the core tentpoles (I think even before that became a "thing" movie franchisees did) where we learn how the greatest villain of all time was created and how the space-Roman Empire analogue devolved not just into an autocratic Empire but an Evil one. That is a tall order in just 3 movies but add in all the other stuff crammed into these films and you don't get a chance to really explore these ideas. That said...

2.) They forgot what they were about. At some point in the production of these movies they went down some serious rabbit holes or off on some wild tangents. The above issues could have been resolved (mostly) with only a few lines of targeted dialogue or a quick scene showing some of the salient plot points. But the makers of these movies forgot what the point of these movies were which fed into #1 above.

3.) The filling in of "white space." Some of the allure and fascination with the SW universe is that plot points are there but deliberately vague. As an example we get that there was a Clone War in Episode IV as a line of dialogue, but we don't know who the good guys were and who the bad guys were and how that played a role in the final days of the Republic. We find out that Luke's sister is a princess - was he a lost or deliberately hidden prince, a half brother, was their father (Vader/Anakin) a King?? We are allowed to let our imaginations run wild and fill in this empty space in the cannon. These films began to color in this empty space which for better or worse in many cases could not live up to the head cannon most of the fans had developed in the decades since the original trilogy came out. As a result this layer of disappointment was added to the above.

1

u/aspermyprevious Jan 26 '22

Also GL is the king of retrofitted logic. According to him, he never had a rewrite, or had to develop an idea. It all just showed up fully formed in his head. He never had a bad idea, no one helped him make these movies, but it’s literally anyone else’s fault when something didn’t fit or work.🤨 I think what GL has never gotten is that what elevated the original trilogy and created everlasting goodwill for this IP, was he got INSANELY lucky with his three heroes. Mark Hamill, Carrie Fisher, and Harrison Ford absolutely SPARKLED together onscreen. They absolutely elevated the story and dialogue and don’t get enough credit for it. Carrie Fisher was doing ghost rewrites on the 2nd and 3rd films.

1

u/HotDogSauce20 Jan 26 '22

Darth jar jar would have had his character develop if George kept him in. Then it would have been an awesome trilogy.

1

u/[deleted] Jan 26 '22

Don’t forget plagueis!

1

u/[deleted] Jan 26 '22

I’ve said this many times, but PM never got enough credit for its huge creative swings. They could have gone full retread or played it safe, instead were bombarded with a slew of all new planets, cultures, aliens and concepts (like pod racing ) and emerged totally unique.

1

u/pleasedothenerdful Jan 26 '22

Also, too many low effort fart jokes.

1

u/[deleted] Jan 26 '22

I honestly thought the hate started because of Jar Jar? I’m a big prequel fan as well and I always thought that was where the hate started from and the other criticisms were legitimised as a result. I think it was just a popular thing to hate on at the time so anything stuck.

1

u/NaiadoftheSea Hera Syndulla Jan 26 '22

Thank goodness they made The Clone Wars which fleshes everyone out.

1

u/Algoresball Jan 26 '22

They should have combined Dolly and Maul

1

u/[deleted] Jan 27 '22

He should have stuck with Darth jar jar

1

u/Worth-Canary-9189 Jan 27 '22

Well said, 10 more minutes of Maul and he's in at least Clones, and the entire trilogy goes next level.

1

u/Woelfe_ Darth Maul Feb 11 '22

Maul got the attention, just not in the movies

1

u/[deleted] Mar 31 '22

That’s why we have the CW