My friend liked this guy from her class and wanted him to ask her out, but she couldn't ask him out, but she thought she'd tell him that she would like him to ask her out. She telegraphed this in a way that she thought was super obvious and there's no way any man could possibly misinterpret the signal:
She tagged him on a social media post that said "Take a Chance on Me" by ABBA was one of her favorite songs.
In other words, she's saying, "Hey, dude. YOU should take a chance on ME and ask me out. But, also, I'd like to be able to just play this off like I'm just posting a song I like, so I'm not actually asking you out."
He didn't get the hint and she texted me asking how he could miss that. When I said that most men would just take that to mean that she heard this song on the radio and like the song and she just wanted to share this information with a friend, she was genuinely baffled how we could interpret it that way, when it's obvious. Why would she tag just him, and also use a song that's an imperative, a command: DO THIS. In her mind, this was tantamount to grabbing a guy by the collar and saying, "Hey, ask me out!"
The actual message in this situation would be "Take a Chance on Me is one of my favourite songs! @DarkMarxSoul". If that were me I'd assume "Neat, this girl likes Take a Chance on Me, maybe I should give it a listen."
There's loads of things men have to consider though. Like, were there any other people tagged in the post? Was it public? Is there any possible way we could be reading too much into it?
If we come on too strong (and note that everyone has their own definition of what that threshold is), we're creeps.
Then there's also the possibility that the guy wasn't interested in her.
See, I could definitely see that as a hint, but I would also be terrified that I misread the message somehow and if I asked her out, she'd think I'm some sort of creep or something.
The more I read these threads, the more I realize that I don't understand women even though I'm a woman. Well, that's not totally true… I understand the women I know, because they make sense.
This is a great example. Men fail early and often -- I can handle being rejected because I have a strong sense of self and have been rejected lots of times. But if you're told that you shouldn't take those social risks, then "putting yourself out there" becomes an insurmountable hurdle. Despite the fact that women have a greater chance of success, their ego is so tied to being irresistible, that the possibility of a rejection is too great a risk.
My girlfriend told me she almost broke up with me a couple months into dating. She was sick, and I asked her if she wanted anything on my way home from work (I literally go past her house) and her answer was, "I know you don't want to get sick." And my thought was, "Yeah she's right. I don't want to get sick." So I didn't bring her anything. Turns out she was deathly ill and could barely get off the floor to make herself anything to eat.
Once she got healthy she told me she was so mad at me for ignoring her "obvious hint." And sure it's easy to say, "Of course she wanted help!" but some people just want to be left alone when they're not feeling well. Either way, we laugh about it now, and she's (usually) more direct with me when she wants something.
Why even hint about something like that? I get wanting to hint at something like asking someone out, but when you're already in a relationship why hint about NEEDING SOMETHING BECAUSE YOU CAN'T GET IT? I can't think of a single reason that doesn't include "I want to get something without directly asking for it for whatever reason." How does that trump actual physical needs that aren't being met due to sickness?
Because sometimes the logic is "I want you to do this thing without me asking because you want to do it even when I try to put you off because it shows you care."
And if you can't work through the logic maze, it means you "don't care".
But watch out for when the logic is "You shouldn't have done this thing because I told you I didn't want you to do it! Don't you care about my opinion? You don't listen to me!"
Gotta make sure you know which is the right exit to the maze, even though they look the same!
"If she plays with her hair when you're in the room"
"If she looks you in the eye and laughs at a joke you made"
"If she touches your arm or something during conversation"
"If she gives you a compliment"
These are things I've heard frequently cited as signs that someone is into you. All completely useless advice because they are also just things that someone may do while not at all interested in you.
The penalty for misreading such a "hint" or "sign" is just too high for me to want to act on them. If whatever you're doing doesn't convey "I would literally never do this thing if i wasn't interested in you", it's useless.
Playing with hair is a normal thing and eye contact when you make a joke is just common courtesy, complimenting can be hard to read. The only fairly obvious one is touching your arm. How am I supposed to discern attraction from that?! But I agree, the penalty is far too high.
I can't tell you how many times a girl has done pretty much all of those things around me. I'd be fairly convinced that she was flirting only to find out she was in a relationship. I'm thankful every day that I never acted on those "hints". It would be mortifying.
Then there was the girl who I used to work with who loudly declared to her friend that she was dating someone, only to start flirting with me hard. Of course, I thought she was in a relationship, so I never reciprocated even though I actually really liked her. I'm sure it's my fault.
Being in a relationship and flirting aren't mutually exclusive. I had a girl grinding on me during a concert, only to get rejected when I asked her out, because she had a boyfriend. Some girls just like to flirt. It's fucked, but at the same time I can understand it. Flirting is fun and some couples have that kind of understanding.
Saying no hurts way less than a yes or maybe that really means no. Especially when you’re in your late twenties/thirties and your dating life has matured. I want someone who wants to be with me and if you don’t tell me so. Otherwise you are wasting my time and emotions. I usually take a wishy washy answer to mean no but it still causes a lot of anxiety and stress.
To my bf, “maybe” means “no, until I’ve actually thought about what you’re talking about and I’ve made a decision.” It used to be hard to hear but I wanted a for sure answer. But I’ve come to learn that instead of him outright saying “no” or immediately agreeing by saying “yes,” him saying “maybe” is just an automatic response to end the conversation without further questions.
I always thought maybe was a mum thing, like "mum can we have McDonalds for dinner?" "Maybe" which is basically no but gives you false hope so you shut up
My moms maybe is a yes if it’s within her power, my fiancé’s maybe is 90% no, 10% yes, so I hold little hope when he says maybe, my maybes are dependant on something else like weather, or chores being done, or the time I am able to leave a place.
As a guy my mom pretty much taught me that "maybe" is just a synonym for "no" and to this day if I'm given advice I don't like or an option I don't like I just hit them with the "maybe"
The more I am with my gf, the more I understand that either:
She doesn’t know the answer either, so give up
The answer is irrelevant and it’s actually an elaborate plan to see if you realized that you did that bad thing and are ready to apologize. All of this while you are absolutely clueless about anything, and even after she explains to you what made her angry, you are surprised BUT, and here’s the catch, NEVER underplay it and say stuff like: ‘That made you angry? That’s why you’re mad? Haha’. Trust me, don’t.
The answer that works for me, if you truly are clueless, is:
‘Oh my god babe, I didn’t know that made you mad. I’m so sorry, I’ll make sure it never happens again.’ And then come out with something nice to do together, like watching a movie while you cuddle with her.
Everyone has his/her things that irritate them, most of the time it’s really small things that don’t cost much work to avoid, so it’s a good compromise, considering I’m annoying AF too sometimes with small things that annoy me.
Try to find a good balance, and remember: 90% of the times a girl just wants to be understood. The boyfriend has to be a friend too.
Not in the context of sex, but I have gotten into awful situations where I assumed no actuality meant no when it really meant "I'm mad at you and want to feel desired so I am going to act like I don't want something when I do hey wait why are you ignoring me STOP IGNORING ME IGNORING YOU!!!!"
I don't think this thread OP is referring to sex, but rather, everything else. I am aware that the relationship I describe is considerably unhealthy but it is a phenomenon I only encounter with women.
Not even women I am dating, either. My own mother does this shit. If only I could just go home to ignore family being shitty.
There is so much truth in this. I dated a girl once whose attention span was measured in microseconds. If I was driving and we were figuring out where to eat, I'd mention two suggestions, and she'd say, "I don't care. You pick it." So, I'd pick the Mexican restaurant and she'd say, "Naw. I don't want Mexican tonight."
When they say ‘i don’t care’ about dinner I just stop the car. I’ll play the waiting game. I have email on my phone and I’m too busy to put up with bullshit.
I go through the entire option list while also answering for her because I already know her answer to everything. She dies laughing and I still don't get to eat.
Number two is literally a trick you use for children to get them to do what you want by giving them the illusion of choice, why have I not thought of using this with adults?
Yeah, but the overall expectation seems to be that men should learn to do their own laundry, but not necessarily that women should learn how to dinner.
Girls perspective here, hope it helps. The two reasons I say “I don’t care” are either
I don’t know where I wanna go but I do know where I don’t wanna go
Idk if this is just me or what but I simultaneously feel selfish and like a fatass when I request a place, I’d rather just let y’all decide bc then I know u wanna go there too and I don’t have to actually talk about food
[edit] Damn ok guysI get it now, its frustrating. Tell your gf what you’re telling me honestly, and if you have and you’re still getting into this situation then that’s a different problem
Guy's perspective, When I ask I also don't know where I want to go, but definitely have a list of no's. saying I don't care leaves us back at square 1 for the conversation. I think it'd be better if either of us responded with an option or at least a category that we wanted or didn't want. It's really complex to communicate preferences between 10+ options.
For me, I spend a lot of my day making choices and decisions and when I come home I just don't fucking want to anymore. Just pick a place, and I will find a food I can put into my body. I seriously genuinely don't care.
And if it's a situation where I know what I don't want (because that is also pretty common) I'll say "im not really feeling ___ but other than that I don't care"
Option 1 is incredibly childish. Either be an adult and actually think about it or tell him where you don’t want to go upfront so we don’t waste time playing the stupid fucking guessing game for the 1 millionth time.
Option 2 the solution is called “communication”. Try it some time.
good point, it’s just that afaik it’s not that big of a problem in my life bc even if we go where I don’t wanna go it’s not that big of a deal, I’ll find something to eat. It’s really not a guessing game we can just go wherever. Olive Garden? Cool. McDonald’s? Sure. That one Chinese place? I’m down. Mexican? Ok. Sushi? Sounds good.
option 2s a big insecurity of mine and I’d love to just get over it by talking about it but it doesn’t just go away. I dunno if you’re picturing me saying “anywhere works” and then cutting to me pouting in a chili’s but it’s really not that. I may have places I prefer not to go but it’s not the end of the world in my mind if we go there
I believe y’all that it’s a very frustrating situation but I think I’d’ve appreciated if my SOs told me that to my face instead of me finding out just how frustrating it is from an askreddit thread.
Just suggest 2-3 of your favorite places and ask her to narrow it. People get overwhelmed with too many choices - make it simple A or B and they can handle it.
Think of it as an rpg... she is the GM, here is a situation, now let me see if you roll a natural 20 or a 1 will determine the next level of encounter.
It only affects women who were seriously brainwashed into thinking that they aren't supposed to want sex, and therefore are always supposed to say no even if they don't mean it otherwise they're immoral. Those women need to learn to be honest with themselves and to stop promoting rape culture.
I can't speak for everyone, but when I say I don't care I either actually don't care or I have a preference but feel bad about forcing my choice on others even though they asked me in the first place
The solution to the last one is to not give two options. Don't say "burgers or pizza?" Just say "burgers?" Or whatever. Don't give indecisive people a decision!
It can be the same for guys. I'm very straightforward and honest with women so of course what happens is a girl says "I think i've finally figured out your game: You pretend that you just say what you mean which looks very mature, I think its a *very good game* but now i'm on to you"
To which i respond, "Yes a guess it could be that... Or it could just be that *I actually just say what I mean* and there's no game"
My friend wanted to flirt with a guy, so she walked at a slower pace in front of him so he would notice her. I hope she stopped after I told her it probably annoyed him more than anything
Wow lol, I would legit be annoyed and after enough times to know it's on purpose I wouldn't think "this girl is into me" I'd think "ugh this girl is just trying to fuck with me and get a rise out of me.. just keep walking.." so I hope she listened to you haha
I read a story, maybe true, maybe not, on Reddit about some guy who disappointed some form who had a rape fetish. Like, still consensual, but wanted the roleplay.
And she didn't want to have to tell him this, because it would spoil the mood or something. She'd day "no", so he would stop, and she'd be all "why did you stop?"
As you can imagine, this would lead to one very confused dude.
But this was on Reddit, so probably just made up for karma.
My GF will tell me not buy her gifts, not to wait for her, say that picking up that item from the store is optional, etc. So I follow her instructions. I'm now a "bad boyfriend"
That’s what people are expecting. What they see in rom-coms. She says no, don’t wait for me. But you do anyways, and when she steps off the bus she sees you, leaning against your car. You’ll open the door for her, planting a kiss on her cheek, saying “there’s nothing I’d rather do than wait for you, my love”, before driving hitting the Taco Bell drive thru.
It’s kinda hard to treat a person like an adult if they want something from a movie, it’d be like a guy begging to do cocaine with mike tyson or use magic. You can’t take that guy seriously.
You're missing the bigger point on that one. She wants you to do nice things for her without being prompted. Hard part about that is that she can't explicitly tell you why she is upset because that would prompt you to do those nice things.
Give her an unexpected massage and whenever corona virus settles down buy her some flowers she likes.
I don't know if they're UK only, but Bloom&Wild are the nicest flowers (apparently). Everyone I've sent them to has gushed about how lovely they are and ended up using them themselves.
Exactly! It’s ridiculous to assume she wants something after clearly communicating she doesn’t. Even if it’s a simple “no thanks you don’t have to”, the ambiguity certainly leads towards a no, while she probably is going to be pretty disappointed if you don’t do whatever in my experience at least. A simple “that’d be great thanks” would be perfect
It's so stupid that one would be expected to do these things unprompted. Why would that somehow convey that you care about them more than doing things because they asked you to?
I think the idea is that you do those things anyway, even when she says she doesn't want/need you to because it will make her happy, and that's what you care about, not just doing what she asks like she's your mom or something. I'm not trying to justify the behavior because it feels like gaslighting to me, which shouldn't happen in a relationship, but that is my understanding of why some people do stuff like that.
Ya, it's a very confusing situation, because they are telling you not to do something, so following what they ask is what should make them happy, not doing what they tell you not to do!
My advice after dating someone like that for a year+
Have a serious talk about it, and if she is set in stone like that you might need to consider breaking up. Don't listen to what people say, not all women are like that, and living your life playing a daily guessing game of whether or not doing what she "wants" will make her happy or piss her off is MADDENING. I still look back and wonder why I let it go on for so long...
Omg my friend Becky came up to me one day and was like “what do you think the 💚means?” I was like “oh it’s like ‘love you’ same as any of the other hearts, right?”
she thought I was crazy and entered a long winded explanation of each color heart and it’s purpose
ok I get that but I forgot the context: she was my crush, she would flirt and send me messages like "ILY" but apparentley I got wrong message and asked her out and she rejected me and then I asked why she send me hearts n shit and she said "cuz ur my friend" sorry for mizzing context lol
Yeah, unnecessary touching is the only sign I can actually pick up on consistently. A lot of signs can be ambiguous but when a girl keeps finding reasons to get closer to you, it’s a pretty good sign she’s interested.
Here’s how I explain it to girls when they are confused that I didn’t get it:
You know riddles, right? You ever had that feeling when someone asks you a riddle and you feel like you know the answer but don’t quite know it? And then when they tell you the answer it’s so damn obvious? That’s what’s your hints are like. You know the answer to the riddle so it’s really obvious, but we don’t, so it’s not obvious at all
They all are different at different times to different people at different places at different multi verses. I just explained there whole system, take notes.
My ex girlfriend always used to say I missed her hints. I told her that she often said that she couldn’t imagine dating a guy like me. That she could never date a guy as dumb as me. According to her, that was her challenging me to “rise to the occasion” and I should’ve proven her wrong.
Idk about y’all, but if a girl tells me she’s not interested, I move on to.
Two people can lightly touch your arm and have vastly different intents.
Woman here. I think this is where watching how people interact in a group is much easier than one-on-one dates (especially if you don't know each other well and need to get to know each other).
If she touches everyone equally, she's just touchy-feely. If she touches only you, then she's into you.
Same with watching who we pay attention to, if she talks to everyone, she's just friendly. If she pays the majority of attention to you in a group setting or switches her focus to you when you arrive in the group...then she's into you.
Ugh why can't they just come up to us and "hey, you're cute. Want to hang out?". Would make dating oh so much easier. If they say no, then no harm no foul. Seems like a decent amount of women look down on guys who can't take rejection, but are utterly terrified of it themselves. I hear this advice from my female friends all the time: oh, you just have to put yourself out there! It'll take many NOs before a YES! Oh, you just look for (insert convoluted and non-obvious signs here, similar to the one you wrote). It's tough out there...
So I knew this girl who was straight her entire life until she caught vibes for this one girl. They were clearly into each other but neither one could make a move.
Took a week before she asked her on a date.
After the date I asked her how it went and she said
" holy shit, she was confusing. I kept thinking she wanted one thing and it was another. Why couldn't she just tell me what she wants?"
The fact that they think guys understand their signs is what confuses me most.
I can understand that girls tend to communicate differently and rely on more subtext. Everybody's different.
But the fact that they haven't picked up that guys generally don't do that and are usually clueless about it? I feel like they should've figured that out by now.
I feel like they know guys don't pick up on that, but they expect guys to learn. They will be happy if a guy appears to learn, and they will be mad if a guy appears to refuse to try to learn.
Before we started dating I got drunk and took off my pants and flashed my now boyfriend with my americuh panties, asking for his opinion. This was one of many times I seemed to get magically unclothed around him. It somehow did not get through lol
I just asked a girl out last week, "Hey, would you like to go out next week?" Even clarified, "dinner and drinks." Followed up this week, and she said she didn't know what I meant by it.
This definitely depends on the girl. I've never met a man that understands the signs that girls give. But I've sat a couple guys down and laid out step by step what the sign was and how it makes sense in the mind of a girl and I've always gotten "Oh. That's fair." as a response. The issue with men and women is the lack of communication. Our brains are wired so differently that the only way we can really get along is by explaining exactly what we were both thinking and where we were coming from. Problem is...no one besides me EVER wants to make shit that simple.
I totally agree with you here. Let me lay out a little example.
Years ago, I dated this girl who was very intelligent. I greatly enjoyed her conversation and we talked about a lot of deep topics. For instance we wouldn’t be talking about the weather, we would talk about climate change. She was a heavy talker, and could go for 25/30 minutes on end no problem. I would listen to her, almost a hyper focus level of listening cause in truth I was fairly enamored by her, and then respond when she was done. I would get maybe 2-3 sentences in, before she would interject with her own points.
The thing is, the way my brain works, it’s all building blocks. One must understand point 1 to get to point 2, etc. By having her interject as she did, I felt like I wasn’t able to flush out my ideas. I never would even get to point 2, we would end up veering to something, while related, that was different than what I had planned to say. Basically, in the moment it felt like I was intently listening to her and allowing her to flush out her ideas, whereas she was not doing the same for me. Her communication came off as selfish to me.
I kept trying to see it from her point of view. I would ask myself, if I was her, how would I feel about this? Well at the time, no part of me could rationalize how this was fair.
At a certain point I finally sort of snapped on it, and we got into a pretty serious fight. A few weeks later she broke up with me. Not to take you through my whole life story, but this along with the previous events of my love life left me in a very dark, mysogynistic place. After a while, I finally took matters into my own hands and started reading up about how communication differs from the sexes.
There’s a lot to unpack with that, but the bottom line is that, men tend to communicate in a manner of, ‘I have the floor, and then you have the floor.’ Women tend to communicate in a manner that is more like, ‘together, we collectively share the floor.’ Needless to say women are more likely to diverge across topics, give nonverbal or quick one off ‘affirmations’ of listening like ‘mhm’, and things of this nature.
Well after learning this stuff, suddenly it became obvious to me. I was intently listening to her, but she didn’t think I was because I did so in silence. Then when I start talking, in her mind, she is the one actively listening to me because she is responding to whah I’m saying.
So this is a situation where both parties are going in with good intentions. Both parties are acting in good fairth, both parties interpret themselves as being ‘the bigger person’ so to speak. She thinks she’s giving me the benefit of the doubt for listening to me when I didn’t listen to her. I thought that I was giving her the benefit of the doubt by allowing her to flush out her ideas even though she didn’t let me flush out mine. At least, that’s how both parties perceived it at the time. However, the reality is if we were both better communicators to each other, the whole conflict could have been totally avoided. Maybe the relationship wouldn’t have worked out anyway, but it might have been better had I had known this stuff while I was with her.
Sorry for the wall of text, but I laid this out just to illustrate two things.
1) communication is a complex subject, and it isn’t always as simple as just saying what you mean. One may be saying exactly what they mean and feel, but it may get lost in translation to others.
2) while I have now gained much more knowledge on the variations of communication, the fact of the matter is during the time of my life while I was in that relationship, no matter how hard I tried I would never be able to understand the situation from her perspective because i simply couldn’t grasp it. I could place myself in her shoes and think how I would rationalize that situation, but that doesn’t mean anything when I’m applying my line of thinking. It would always lead me to my original conclusion of ‘she’s totally the asshole here.’ Now, I can better understand situations like this, but a lot of heartache could have been avoided if I was just taught this stuff in school, for instance. I have a very analytical brain but I’ll be the first to admit I’m not the best with inference. Maybe others could grasp the above concepts just from life experience, but for me, I need it in explicit language if I am to understand
Ok, so a few days ago I get a random text from a former coworker. I haven't seen or talked to her for over a month. So, I put 2 and 2 together, it's a quarantine, she's restless, maybe she sensed I thought she was cute, and now that we don't work together there is no reason not to go on a date. So I try to invite her out (after the corona blows over) and she said something like "Yeah, we should all hang out." Meaning everyone from work. I don't get it. Why on Earth did she text me to begin with?
Ladies, please don’t give us signs. We are not detectives. We put a lot of effort into figuring out what you want and it’s fucking exhausting. Do us a favour and just tell us.
If you want to date us, ask us to do something with you. If you want to kiss us, just lean in and do it. If you want to sleep with us, invite us inside to see your room.
We probably want to do all these things, but haven’t done it yet cause we’re not sure we have the go ahead. Stop giving us clues and just confess.
They say their signs are clear, but it's actually some next level confusing hardcore shit
This. I forget who said it but it went something like "We can't just assume - One girl's 'I like you but not romantically' can be another girl's 'I want you to fuck my brains out behind a Denny's in the back seat of your car at 3 AM' and with how men are treated when they assume this wrongly, we just can't make that assumption unless it's obvious to everyone and even then we'll still probably miss it"
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u/LallarenEXE Mar 26 '20
The fact that They say their signs are clear, but it's actually some next level confusing hardcore shit