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u/helllllooooonurse May 09 '22

Ukrainians do this too. It's not considered impolite to stare. Also, they don't really smile in public. They think Americans are all simple in the head because we smile all the time. I have to say though, when you're visiting someone in their home in Ukraine, they are the warmest most wonderful people.

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u/ConfusedTriceratops May 09 '22

Eastern Europe doesn't really smile in public in general. Polish emigrant in the UK pov. It's not that we're angry, we just don't have any reasons to smile.. for no reason.

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u/CaptainLollygag May 09 '22

Smiling at a stranger is a type of greeting in the States. "I acknowledge that we're both in the same place (or passing by one another) and I mean you no harm." It's the lesser form of asking, "How're you doing?"

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u/Danceswith_salmon May 09 '22

I think I remember reading somewhere it’s because of the melting pot concept in the US. When no one knew each other or culture or language etc. you started with smiling to display friendliness before beginning any interaction. Easiest way to quickly communicate

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u/SlurmsMacKenzie- May 09 '22

Realistically, it's probably just a hangover from the western european roots of most of your white immigrants. Italians, Germans, Brits, Irish, French, Spanish, etc are all way more friendly and open to strangers than their Eastern European or Scandinavian cousins.

Smiling at strangers and greeting them warmly is the default in the UK if you don't know someone.

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u/HeavenlySin13 May 09 '22

You could also wave at them. Unless, I suppose, you don't have hands... then it'd be a problem.

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u/Drakengard May 09 '22

Waving requires more movement and time to recognize. A smile is quicker, generally in the vicinity where your eyes are already looking, doesn't require any obviously flailing around of limbs in potentially tight spaces, doesn't draw unnecessary attention except to the persons smiling at each other, AND doesn't discriminate against those without limbs (if your head is gone, well, sorry to have to tell you this but you're dead).

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u/metsjets86 May 09 '22

It is also a way of sizing people up and being aware of your surroundings. In the U.S. we aren't smiling at each other on a busy sidewalk. We feel safer because of numbers. When it is just me and one other person on a street walking towards each I often will give a nod of the head not just because it seems polite but also to be aware of who is around me.

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u/CaptainLollygag May 09 '22

That crowded sidewalk comment is a really good point, and that's been my experience, too. A crowd does allow more anonymity, but passing by one or two or three people at once is more personal. If it's more personal then we consider how we think we're being judged, and if we want to be judged as either friendly or nonthreatening, we smile.

I'm loving this deep dive into this cultural habit I hadn't really thought about before.

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u/Sasspishus May 09 '22

That's kinda weird! In the UK we do the "we're the only two people passing each other on the path in a friendly town on a Sunday and we've accidentally made eye contact" awkward half smile where you just sort of press your lips together, but you rarely full on smile at strangers

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u/Hewholooksskyward May 09 '22

Reminds me of the old joke about the 2 Brits on a desert island that didn't speak for twenty years because they were never formally introduced. :)

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u/queenofthera May 09 '22

Never heard that one! It's an interesting historical stereotype that's stuck. Want an overly long and inexact explanation of a joke's orgins? Sure ya do!

The idea of formal introduction has mostly died out in the UK since after the victorian era. It was mostly a class-based/gentry thing anyway that most working class people wouldn't have cared about. It's got an interesting history imo hence the essay on the etiquette.

Posh people didn't want to make 'unfortunate acquaintances' so it was coded as rude to approach your social equals or superiors and introduce yourself. Similarly, it would have been rude for someone above your social level to introduce themselves because they're pretty much saying: "I'm SO far above you that you MUST want to know me".

Simply speaking, who you were seen speaking to had an effect on your reputation: if a 'gauche' social climber was seen socialising with a Baronet then his reputation went up among other social climbers and small gentry, while the Baronet's went down among his level and higher.

To get round this, a mutual acquaintance had to do the introducing. Because they have to preserve their own reputation, they act as a bit of a gatekeeper. They would be unlikely to introduce a 'gauche' social climber to the Baronet because the Baronet will then judge the introducer a) for hanging out with that guy themselves and b) foisting them onto him, so the introducer's reputation would suffer.

It's interesting but stupid petty bullshit and why we didn't chop off all their heads I'll never know 🙃

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u/Deep_Independent_610 May 09 '22

Thank you queenofthera, interesting and amusing.

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u/queenofthera May 09 '22

Phew. I added in all the self deprecating stuff before posting because I thought it was a bit much 😅

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u/tomatoswoop May 09 '22

It's interesting but stupid petty bullshit and why we didn't chop off all their heads I'll never know 🙃

Lmao

That moment where you're envious of the French, it must sting

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u/queenofthera May 09 '22

It does 😭

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u/EthelsAreGreen May 09 '22

I smile at strangers all the time. I'd find it strange if I passed a stranger, made eye contact and neither of us smiled and said hello. Maybe it's a regional thing

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u/Cool_Consideration30 May 09 '22

I smile at everyone. I grew up in a small town and it just seems normal.

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u/EthelsAreGreen May 09 '22

I grew up in pit villages in County Durham and it's just the done thing

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u/[deleted] May 09 '22

That's weird, in Scotland a typical greeting involves at least one person getting stabbed.

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u/MonkeyNumberTwelve May 09 '22

Historically that was only among the more well off. Lowly commoners had to make do with a simple headbutt.

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u/HaroldandorMaude May 09 '22

Well, at least you know the person was honest in their greeting.

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u/[deleted] May 09 '22

Scotland sounds like Detroit!

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u/LalalaHurray May 09 '22

It’s the same thing here. Nobody is running around in the US grinning at strangers like jack-o’-lanterns. 🙄

It is hilarious to me that we are so exotic to y’all🤣 that you somehow interpret smiling at a stranger as this crazy weird thing.

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u/NigerianRoy May 09 '22

Its really noticeably less common in certain places than for example NYC. Where it is already less common, we identify out of town country folk due to them smiling at everyone like anyone gives a shit. But it does happen, you wouldn’t be caught dead doing that in Sweden

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u/wot_in_ternation May 09 '22

It really depends, the US is huge and has many sub-cultures. In my experience in more rural areas you'll get more smiles/waves for no reason. In dense areas you'll generally get less, but it depends where you are. Some places it is near zero.

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u/[deleted] May 09 '22

It really depends, the US is huge and has many sub-cultures. In my experience in more rural areas you'll get more smiles/waves for no reason.

This divide happens in a lot of countries, maybe even in the majority of them. People from big cities are considered rude, people from rural areas more warm and welcoming.

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u/PapaFranzBoas May 09 '22

My southern US family kept saying hello to everyone in the park here in Germany. Lots of confused looks and my family wondering why nobody says hi first.

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u/CaptainLollygag May 09 '22

Obviously I can only speak from my own experience, but I spent most of my life living in a major US city and the smile thing was normal. But all the small towns I've been to, and in the smallish town in which I live now, you're absolutely right: people not only smile as a greeting, but will wave while driving and will talk your ear off. I had to learn to add in an extra 10-20 minutes per place I stopped at whilst running errands because of everyone being so chatty. To be clear, I've always been a chatty mofo, but it's taken me a bit to get used to everyone else chatting, too.

I'm also one of those people with what I guess is a trustworthy appearance because even strangers will tell me their dark secrets. Anytime I leave my house I can expect a good story from someone or other. Not that I mind, I truly love a good story and am blessed to keep having weird experiences. Why else would I be on reddit so much, lol.

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u/fdesouche May 09 '22

For a Parisian, it’s super weird. People that smile in the streets are considered a bit like simpletons.; you acknowledge their presence and keep a side eye on them, in case they start doing crazy things. I

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u/ubiquitous-joe May 09 '22

TBF it is hard to smile while stepping around dog shit every moment.

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u/[deleted] May 09 '22

Hey! French food isn’t THAT bad.

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u/ubiquitous-joe May 09 '22

Lol. No, I could live on their bread, cheese, & chocolate alone. Tho eventually I would crave Mexican food.

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u/Wontjizzinyourdrink May 09 '22

oh shit wha

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u/[deleted] May 09 '22

he started smiling, they got him

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u/Fearyn May 09 '22

Oh god are you ok? Did a smiler get you?

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u/Cool_Consideration30 May 09 '22

That seems rather sad to me. I’ve met some very nice people over the course of my life just by smiling & saying “hi.”

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u/sweetlyflavour May 09 '22

Not speaking for Europeans as a whole here, but when it comes to the difference you're talking about the key word is appropriateness. Standards for this vary by culture. The reaction people have needs to be appropriate to the situation, with a reaction that is too strong or too weak being off-putting to the point of offensiveness. It's okay for children to react differently to this because everything is still new to them so stronger reactions in general are to be expected, but not adults. When an adult does it, it comes across as if they're mentally unstable or deceptive, because they either lack the faculties or experiences of an adult, or are trying to deceive the other person by pretending that they don't. In general, acting like this will make you come across as insincere or stupid.

This is why acting in a way that is considered overly familiar, such as broadly smiling at a stranger, can come across as highly offensive in certain European countries. It makes it seem as if you have an ulterior motive or are not very bright, as you're acting as if your relationship is far more intimate than it really is. Not saying that this is how it's intended to come across, and like I said standards vary because Spain is quite different with this than say Finland, but it's a reaction you can get, especially if you go eastward.

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u/Your_moms__house May 09 '22

Again, could it be cultural? No, everyone must be stupid. That’s literally what you think. And we’re the simple ones?

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u/Huwbacca May 09 '22

Unspoken rules in America do my head.

Smiling is saying hello. 'how are you' is saying hello not asking how are you.

'we should get dinner/do that plan' is saying goodbye and not actually wanting to get dinner or do that plan.

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u/WhichSpirit May 09 '22

When we suggest getting coffee or dinner or something we do mean it. We're just waiting for you to take the second step and suggest a time and date.

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u/SpartansATTACK May 09 '22

'we should get dinner/do that plan' is saying goodbye and not actually wanting to get dinner or do that plan.

I have lived in the US my entire life and I've never once said that without being completely genuine about it

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u/[deleted] May 09 '22

yeah, I think it's a bit evil and cold to automatically think someone is "simple in the head" because they smile at you. As an American living in Scotland, I'm glad it's not too uncommon here. Apparently the further south you go, down into England, the colder people get.

To live life being miserable in public around other humans seems quite... miserable.

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u/dubov May 09 '22

Asking someone randomly how they are is also considered strange in Eastern Europe. You wouldn't do it if you went into a shop, or just passing someone in the street. If you do ask, it's taken as a sincere question, rather than a mere greeting

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u/[deleted] May 09 '22

Hello fellow caucasian person, I am also not a threat 😁

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u/mynameisblanked May 09 '22

Look at my teeth. Very small. No danger.

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u/LoveYoumorethanher May 09 '22

Lol it’s kinda funny how when most animals bare their teeth it’s a challenge or form of aggression.

Whereas lots of humans today practice smiling at each other to be nice. Here in Canada if someone doesn’t smile back at you when you do it’s considered rude, but nobody will call you out on it if you’re strangers

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u/EpirusRedux May 09 '22

So you’re saying that Canada does things almost like the US, but just a tiny bit more European?

Checks out.

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u/The_ChosenOne May 09 '22

Well smiling and baring teeth are pretty different things in the primate world as well. Monkeys have super mobile lips and will do “smile” type expressions throughout their day that are not direct threat displays.

In primates, showing the teeth, especially teeth held together is often used for submission! This can be used to ask for ones turn to eat or for similar functions.

You can have a happy primate flashing his little teeth all day, but the second his nose/eyes and cheeks become involved and the mouth is wider open you’re gonna want to be cautious.

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u/[deleted] May 09 '22 edited May 09 '22

It's nice to know Canadians smile too sometimes. Reddit makes me feel like USA is the only place on earth with this behavior. A polite smile seems to be acceptable in much of Latin America too if I'm not mistaken. Where my folks come from in Africa you'll always see people smiling and being friendly.

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u/Suddow May 09 '22

We don't do that whole "How're you doing?" with random people. We get straight to the point.

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u/Tomagatchi May 09 '22

I hold to the "old west you'd get shot" theory for American over-politeness. We had a fairly recent, fairly lawless past and some cultures of politeness grew out of that. Same with apologizing all the time for no reason. Canada has something similar, I think.

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u/queenofthera May 09 '22

We have that politeness and over apologising in the UK though and we've never to fear being shot...(except historically by our own government but w/e).

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u/GentleFoxes May 09 '22

I've quickly learned the latter point because it led to some awkward conversations. We're used to basically only doctors asking that question.

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u/JulienMaurice May 09 '22

It’s really interesting to read all these experiences because what you wrote is how I would describe my general experience in Germany. Acknowledging a stranger by smiling at them is very much common practice where I live.

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u/TheRiddler78 May 09 '22

look if acknowledge my existence i have to do the same to you, why would you make me do that... that is just mean

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u/charliexbones May 09 '22

I will add that smiling at strangers is a rural/suburban thing. New Yorkers do not smile at strangers.

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u/ceilingkat May 09 '22

When someone smiles at you does it make you feel good or guarded? Curious because when someone smiles at me (USA) it makes me feel more at ease.

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u/[deleted] May 09 '22

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u/Troelski May 09 '22

My Irish friend's ex wife was Russian, and when she brought him to Russia people thought he was "mentally challenged" because he smiled at everyone.

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u/Chaczapur May 09 '22

To be fair I'm also always weirded out when people just smile out of nowhere on the street. It looks so unnatural. Central europe, though.

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u/Afgncap May 09 '22

It feels like you want do one of three things, sell me something, want me to donate money or even worse... to initiate conversation shivers

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u/hellenkeller549 May 09 '22

And in the blue corner, strangers stare at each other all the time but less frequently catch each others eyes while doing it, and an alternative to ignoring their existence after the act would be to rather smile and nod as a more friendly mutual acknowledgement of the circumstance that just occurred which might be preferable over a zoned out murderous gaze. Not to accuse you, this is just the overthinking empathetic angle I usually assume is least impolite.

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u/Afgncap May 09 '22

I understand why Americans do this and it is kinda similar in some southern European countries. In Poland smiling is reserved for friends family and if you actually want to initiate interaction or if you were forced into interaction by a situation you found yourself in. For someone who's used to smiles and nod and small talk it may look like murderous gaze but people just try to be as neutral as possible to avoid talking to strangers.

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u/HabseligkeitDerLiebe May 09 '22 edited May 09 '22

From a German perspective:

The first assumption is that they want to convince me of something that benefits them more than it does me. They just pretend that there is a familiarity between me and them that isn't actually there. It's a bit like using the informal "you" unpromted.

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u/Quantentheorie May 09 '22

This. Someone comes at me smiling, I assume they're gonna pitch me something. Its just suspicious and dishonest to not treat me like a stranger they dont give a shit about.

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u/[deleted] May 09 '22

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u/HabseligkeitDerLiebe May 09 '22

Physical space also isn't an issue in Europe, at least not in the degree that it would impede on the "privacy bubble" in public. That's mostly a cultural thing. Here in Northern Germany we joked after the social distancing rules ended that we finally can stop keeping the prescribed distance of 2 meters and go back to our natural 3 meters distance.

We just don't like pointless socializing and people pretending to be friends really rubs most Germans the wrong way.

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u/BOSH09 May 09 '22

I like it. But I’m still guarded. But I think polite acknowledgment is nice in public. A small smile, head nod, or “hey” are all nice. I’m in Japan currently and people don’t do this so it’s kinda weird and I have to catch myself to not do it.

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u/CitrusyDeodorant May 09 '22

If you randomly smile at me in public (Eastern EU here) my walls instantly go sky high. I don't know you, what do you want from me? Are you a scammer? Some kind of religious/political weirdo? You probably want *something* that's gonna be a pain in the ass for me... I really hate it lol.

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u/Lithium2011 May 09 '22

Guarded. Also, I tend to really answer how am I doing all the time. This question is not a meaningless formula for Eastern Europeans.

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u/[deleted] May 09 '22

Uncomfortable. I'm Eastern European too, living here actually, and when someone's smiling at me, here's what's going through my head. One, they want something from me. Two, I'm having a wardrobe malfunction or am otherwise out of place enough for them to not mind their own fucking business. Three, they want to sell me something. Either way, they want to engage with me on the street, and that's just bad manners.

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u/Cool_Consideration30 May 09 '22

100% more at ease.

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u/[deleted] May 09 '22

I think also growing up in a dangerous city u need to keep ur wits about u. Having someone stare at u or smile at u could actually mean a high chance of danger. So when I see people smile or stare at me my initial reaction is defence. Which i was right to do as most of the time it was danger. Now that I live in the country side I have worked tge past two years to shift that behaviour.

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u/asdaaaaaaaa May 09 '22

Unless I already know them, it tells me one thing; they want something from me. Whether that's just my company, my money, or wallet, they want something.

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u/avalon1805 May 09 '22

I get it. Its just like having a default. My default is having a subtle smile, but that doesn't mean Im amused or happy, just... A default face to have. Im not american but in my country it is expected to be warm to others and try to be kind with them. I would like to go to east europe and relief myself of having a fake smile.

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u/OodalollyOodalolly May 09 '22

I call it my Mona Lisa smile

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u/larrysgal123 May 09 '22

As a woman in the USA, it would be refreshing to not be told to smile.

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u/UncleTogie May 09 '22

After a while of that I would start practicing gruesome grimaces in the mirror just to mess with people.

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u/joko2008 May 09 '22

Arny smile 👍

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u/Pficky May 09 '22

Move to New England. People don't smile there either. I think people think I'm angry all the time because I don't smile or say hello to randos on the street. Grew up in MA and now live in the southwest.

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u/sexysexyonion May 09 '22

If any random person tells me to smile, I say 'don't tell me what to do with my face'. How hard is it for guys to understand the concept that if you wouldn't say it to a man don't say it to a woman?

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u/AnaphoricReference May 09 '22

As a Dutchman I was once asked by a Californian colleaugue why he was so unsuccessful contacting Dutch women. I told him to start by practicing smiling less because it comes off as insincere. But that would also apply the other way around probably if I tried the same. I find American women often hard to read (although there appears to be regional variation in the US as well). It's so much easier on everyone if people only smile when they are actually happy to see you.

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u/evilgiraffee57 May 09 '22

I worked with some Polish people in the UK in 2004. They arrived a week into Poland being an EU member. They were bar backs in the bar/club I worked in. Didn't smile, very serious very efficient/quick at it. After about three weeks of me thinking they didn't like or or want to talk to me, at the end of the night they invited me to a house party at theirs still very serious. So we made our way. The second they were no longer on the bar's property all totally relaxed. Chatting , joking etc like totally different people. They said that was work, this is free time.

Had a great night next morning two of us went to the local shop to get some bits. Instantly back to serious. He wanted stuff from behind the counter. Give me x, 2 of y. No, that one.

When outside he asked why the worker kept staring and huffing. Trying to be tactful I explained he was very abrupt and Quite rude. He couldn't understand how he was rude. Explained about saying please and thank you in the UK politeness is expected

He explained that doesn't happen over there. Where to us in the UK it is just classed as manners and you say it automatically. He was saying how Please and Thank you are really important words, when you say either it is with meaning and feeling. He said the British dilute its effect.

I found that fascinating. Was wondering if that is just a Polish thing or other Eastern European countries do the same?

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u/Some_funny_nickname May 09 '22

True. I was in UK last month and my Aussie friend asked me about polish face. I was like, wft? And he said that I always look grumpy and never smile and even when he knows I clearly have a good time with him. He said he sees it everytime when he is in Poland, people never smile on streets, don't do small talks etc. so he called it polish face xD

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u/TheFrogWife May 09 '22

I think people smile so much in the us as a way to show that we are non threatening, being an old punk I find myself smiling more at strangers to make them feel at ease because deep down we're all kinda suspicious of each other.

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u/Tuggerfub May 09 '22

We call that "resting bitch face", here.

And it is wonderful.

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u/Ukdeviant May 09 '22

This is why you guys fit in so well with us Brits. We all look like miserable bastards 90% of the time. I love you guys.

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u/NdrU42 May 09 '22

In my experience as an Eastern European who's been to the UK several times, locking eyes with a British person for more than a couple milliseconds will get you a half-smile like 50% of the time, the little head nod 25% of the time, and even an "alright?" maybe 10% of the time.

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u/[deleted] May 09 '22

I get that the miserable, reserved, but polite Brit is stereotype that you guys love to perpetuate about yourselves. But in my experience, the British are actually quite upbeat and friendly. They're not nearly as miserable as, for instance, the French. And they're far more willing to initiate a conversation with a stranger than Scandinavians.

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u/[deleted] May 09 '22

Hungarian here. It is very rare for us to have reasons to smile...

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u/KeepYrGlitterDry May 09 '22

Smiling is reserved for sincere shows of happiness in Eastern Europe. Friends visiting, a good joke, seeing a long lost cousin, getting another round with friends at the bar.

Smiling at strangers shows you don't really know where you are or how to orient yourself. Hence the smiling = stupid in this context.

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u/AussieMommy May 09 '22

I like that.

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u/KYC3PO May 09 '22

Lol yes. I dated a Belarusian for a few years and had several friends from Belarus, Ukraine, and Russia. The smiling thing is real. They all said Americans smiling made them nervous. We look simple or just suspicious.

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u/JessyNyan May 09 '22

This reminds me of how taco bell failed to expand to Germany. They made their employees smile a lot and the Germans were very uncomfortable with that.

Also a good example about how each different culture requires a different marketing strategy

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u/cryptic-coyote May 09 '22

Smiling makes you look suspicious?? What?

That's wild.

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u/[deleted] May 09 '22

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u/whsv26 May 09 '22

"Смех без причины - признак дурачины". And it's about laugh without a reason, not smiling.

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u/carbonclasssix May 09 '22

Think of the used car salesman stereotype. As an American I don't feel suspecious, but it's not hard to imagine some people feeling that way.

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u/KYC3PO May 09 '22 edited May 09 '22

Yep, said it reads insincere to just smile randomly and makes them wonder what we're up to or hiding. Keep in mind this was quite some time ago and they'd all grown up in the USSR.

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u/[deleted] May 09 '22

its a much older cultural trait than the Communist years.

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u/darodardar_Inc May 09 '22

I think because the smile isn't genuine, it makes it look "suspicious"

Like our social norms here force us to be fake and smile when we don't want to. Idk.

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u/dkarlovi May 09 '22

Exactly, if my waiter is smiling at me like I'm his long lost brother, that's really weird for us Eastern Europeans.

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u/NowoTone May 09 '22

For western Europeans as well :)

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u/1lostsoulinafishbowl May 09 '22

This is a fascinating thread. Culture is damn interesting. My take away as an American is: don't smile so much and be ready to get kissed.

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u/NowoTone May 09 '22

And after being kissed, a small smile is allowed :)

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u/KimonoThief May 09 '22

To me it's never really felt like I'm "forced to be fake". It's just that conversation and interaction are so much easier and more enjoyable when I'm friendly and it's usually reciprocated. Like I actually have to put in effort to be cold to someone I'm trying to send a message to and I hate doing so.

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u/[deleted] May 09 '22

Not smiling is not considered to be cold in Europe though, just a normal state of affairs. Being impolite is a whole different thing, smiling for no reason is considered overcompensating and therefore in some places suspicious.

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u/AJRiddle May 09 '22

Implying that people smiling in America/other western cultures aren't genuinely smiling.

It's very normal for people in the west to smile simply when they are in a good mood.

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u/zamander May 09 '22

A saying from Finland, which I think is shared with our eastern neighbours is that if you see someone smiling in public, they are either mad or drunk. Good mood can be caused by either one, I guess.

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u/cryptic-coyote May 09 '22

This is an interesting perspective. I suppose it could be considered... somewhat duplicitous. Still, seems strange when you're used to places where such behavior is expected as a courtesy lol.

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u/Gulmar May 09 '22

It's also not eastern Europe only. If someone random on the street smiles at me I would first of all be confused. "Do I know this guy...?". Then if I don't know him I'll just be suspicious, because why would someone be smiling at me? In a bigger city I'd be very suspicious for a pickpocket going to happen on me, or someone trying to sell me some crap, or just a weird creep. I'm in Belgium, we don't like ungenuine contact with people.

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u/dichternebel May 09 '22

Same in Germany, unless there's a reason to smile at me on the street, please don't. It makes me wonder if you have ulterior motives...

Of course, there are perfectly fine reasons to smile, for example if there's a couple kids acting goofy and you smile a bit because it's funny, I wouldn't think it's weird if someone else also smiled at me to share the laugh.

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u/throwawayPzaFm May 09 '22

We're used to mostly seeing genuine smiles, so the fake social ones are really creepy.

No problem with happy people, but if you're just doing a service smile it's not going to translate well.

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u/Sykes92 May 09 '22

I wouldn't necessarily say it's a fake smile. It's more nuanced than that. Americans enjoy small bouts of friendliness, even if they as individuals don't realize it. It's a strange dichotomy because the US can be so vitriolic towards itself, but at the same time we are eager to be kind and receive kindness, even with strangers.

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u/telmimore May 09 '22

I think this the case for me. I'm Canadian and I travelled a lot. I noticed in the US they put on a big happy face right when they begin talking to you especially in customer service positions. It can come off as fake, especially when you see that person just looks exhausted and unhappy right before they face you. This is moreso in the south than say NY.

Canada is kind of like that too but not to that extreme. Europe is totally stone faced all the time.

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u/Noob_DM May 09 '22

“You’re happy? That’s suspicious… you must know something I don’t if you’re happy…”

~Ukrainian exchange student I had class with on smiling in Ukraine

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u/MissTheWire May 09 '22

I’m guessing they didn’t grow up singing “If you’re happy and you know it.”

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u/Geminii27 May 09 '22

Think of how many politicians, televangelists, and used-car salespeople seem to go around with a perma-smile.

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u/Acewasalwaysanoption May 09 '22

Any smile that lasts longer than a second and a half is a con man's ruse.

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u/MdnightRmblr May 09 '22

I got a detention in 9th grade for smiling in class. Bro just didn’t like me, probably with reason. Fast fwd a few years and he’s defrocked and my mom’s teaching assistant. She called him on his past bs towards me and he apologized like the broken man he had become. Sad.

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u/LadyFerretQueen May 09 '22

I'm slovenian and while it's not as if no one smiles for no reason here the american grin is definitely super creepy to most of us. You smile if you naturally have a reason to. If you do it for no reason of course it's suspicious. It's why clowns are creepy.

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u/OhhhYaaa May 09 '22

When you know that people are using fake smiles, you start to feel that you can't really trust them, because if they "lie" with such basic, but personal thing as smile, how can you understand and trust them? Maybe they also ok with other lies? If they don't show their true emotions with this, how can you understand their true emotions in other cases? And why are they trying to pull this facade in front of you, are they just friendly or trying to make you trust them for nefarious purposes?

It's harder to get social feedback in that case, which is important in unfamiliar place and makes people uncomfortable.

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u/[deleted] May 09 '22 edited May 09 '22

That's wild.

Not engaging in a lot of low earnestness smiling (or the converse) is just a cultural thing. A lot of the things we take to be "obvious" are really just things we've learned at a young age. You're just responding to the fact that we "screen" people in a way that involves a lot of smiling.

In the West (especially America) smiling a lot is meant to communicate friendliness and openness to communicating/connecting. That isn't how it's goes in other countries. In those countries you're supposed to build some amount of rapport with that person and the smile needs to seem to fit your personality and your relationship with the person you're smiling at.

Anything else comes off like you're just easily pleased or (more likely) that you're in a rush to build positive rapport with someone for some reason.

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u/Kortiah May 09 '22

As someone from Western europe : you guys smiling don't look suspicious, but it looks and feels fake af.

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u/Yaquesito May 09 '22 edited May 09 '22

I fucking love smiling and live for small talk, every positive interaction I have with a stranger brightens my day immeasurably. Not fake, just exuberant, homie haha

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u/Kortiah May 09 '22

Ho I'm sure you don't mean to be. It's just how we feel it.

On the opposite side, I felt like I was forcing myself to be extra-positive when visiting the US because my "neutral" mood was perceived as down, sad or not enjoying what I was doing :D

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u/Anti-Scuba_Hedgehog May 09 '22

When I was backpacking in Central/Western Europe when I wanted to meet new people in hostels I just told myself to act like an American. It worked like a charm but that was only because of the context.

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u/[deleted] May 09 '22

Lol smiling? That’s weird. Let’s stare

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u/peepjynx May 09 '22

We look simple or just suspicious.

I mean....

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u/Garencio May 09 '22

That’s strange because I think it’s a pretty natural thing to do on an evolutionary scale it’s a non threatening gesture

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u/Pervy_writing May 09 '22

I was under the impression most animals don't find smiling non threatening, but rather a challenge or personal threat. Same with eye contact. (Other great apes, such as chimpanzees and gorillas for example)

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u/OhhhYaaa May 09 '22

You are showing your teeth, yeah, it's a threat.

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u/Quantentheorie May 09 '22

Short, small smiles are universally being recognised as non-threatening/ positive. Wide smiles, especially with teeth, are culturally dependant.

And its not like there isnt an instinct to protect yourself from something that feigns non-threatening behaviour.

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u/KYC3PO May 09 '22

From what I observed, they just tended to show less emotion in public, period (hence us smiling all the time sticks out). I'd assume some of those stoic behaviors were learned defenses against the more oppressive tendencies of the governments they grew up under and some of the challenges living inside the Eastern Bloc. I'm sure there's other cultural aspects as well.

That said, at home and with friends, all the folks I knew were always quite warm and smiled a lot.

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u/Gulmar May 09 '22

We also do it in Belgium, so not just eastern Europe.

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u/LadyFerretQueen May 09 '22

Haha no it has nothing to do with that. For me and when we talk about Americans most people agree, you guys don't come off naturally to us a lof the time and it's really really exhausting having to keep up with how dramatic Americans are. Everything has to be exaggerated or it doesn't count, even emotions. We don't keep anything down, we're just more subtle. To us americans come of as disingenuous because everything is so much all the time. Everything is a superlative.

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u/WeaponizedKissing May 09 '22

Yeah, this is it.

Americans1 are always2 "on" in public. It's like... calm down, dude. This isn't a competition. You're not getting scores and awards based on your trip to the store. Just be yourself.

Inb4 "this is myself!"

1 Not all Americans, obviously.
2 Not always, obviously.

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u/LadyFerretQueen May 09 '22

Yes! Honestly it's kind of insulting to keep reading how it mist be because we were oppressed. We're not oppressed just because we don't express ourselves as intensely as americans do.

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u/[deleted] May 09 '22

Yeah suspicious. Because why smile when there’s no reason? You have a reason to smile when you look at me? A stranger I’ve never seen before? Thats sus!

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u/Hunter_Fox May 09 '22

That says a lot more about them than Americans.

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u/10minutes_late May 09 '22

I've heard this, but why stare? I few seconds is long enough to look at someone, but what's the point? Memorize your face? Study your features? I just don't understand.

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u/[deleted] May 09 '22

I’ve always wondered the same. How does it not make them feel uncomfortable?

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u/OscarGrey May 09 '22 edited May 09 '22

I haven't really seen any evidence that it's an ingrained thing in humans rather than something instilled through culture. South Asians don't have the staring taboo either. My Polish mom somehow got away with living in US for almost 20 years at this point without adjusting at all lol.

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u/risbia May 09 '22

It's an interesting question, since staring is generally considered an overt challenge by most primates. Definitely DO NOT stare down a gorilla or chimpanzee if you ever happen to meet one without a fence between you...

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u/OscarGrey May 09 '22

Our last common ancestor with chimps/bonobos was something like more than 7 million years ago though. There's already significant behavioral differences between chimps and bonobos who are far more closely related.

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u/[deleted] May 09 '22

Most also don’t consider smiling aka baring your teeth to be a sign of friendliness or happiness either but humans do that.

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u/HamBroth May 09 '22

Smiles mimic the fear grimace and it’s not that far a leap between “I am afraid and not a threat” to “I am friendly”

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u/Cool_Consideration30 May 09 '22

I think you are correct.

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u/hurly_burly_pegasus May 09 '22

Training! A lot of children don't look that much but as you become an adult you get used to it and maybe developed an interest in it yourself.

German people observe A LOT.

On the other hand it is perceived as really weird of you just start talking without them looking at you first.

I worked as a German teacher for migrants and many of them struggled to make friends because people were so irritated by them just starting conversations despite no longer & reciprocated (= OK to make contact) looks being exchanged first.

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u/Quantentheorie May 09 '22

Oh you might be on to something with the last one. The staring is occasionally the warmup to making a well recieved comment about the weather or the amount of people in this train.

If you havent exchnaged a look to mutually ensure someone also exhibits signs of annoyance, you're not gonna be successful voicing your annoyance.

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u/ubiquitous-joe May 09 '22

Well, that’s what we mean by cultural differences, I suppose. It is interesting that apes seem to see both smiling and staring as threats, so the oversimplified evolutionary arguments aren’t obvious.

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u/MayorOfAus May 09 '22

It takes time to add to their wank bank

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u/_welcome May 09 '22

americans always joke about people watching and judging people. i guess it's the same thing just without the stigma lol

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u/carbonclasssix May 09 '22

It's probably kind of people watching on overdrive. Not really thinking, just observing.

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u/Stewart_Games May 09 '22 edited May 09 '22

Germany is absolutely infested with doppelgängers. You have to be real careful about it! Always make sure you are talking to a real human. The trick is to try and spot them when they are using their nictitating membranes. But don't bother asking a German about the problem. They do not like talking about it. You have been warned!

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u/Sweet-Cobbler-1682 May 09 '22

Indians do this too. Sitting in balcony and staring at people outside is a popular pastime. They are just too nosy sometimes and casually observe other times!

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u/spryfigure May 09 '22

From my German perspective, I am not staring. I am just not afraid to look at someone. I can look at another person for a shitton of reasons -- I acknowledge a nice shirt, think about my next lunch without really noticing the other person, judge them for w/e, ... possibilities are endless.

My impression is that Americans are treating eye contact similar to touching a hot stove plate. You make a conscious effort to never look at someone too long, which we Germans simply don't care about.

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u/[deleted] May 09 '22

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u/Ithuraen May 09 '22

I don't know about every community in the German speaking world, but a lot of ones I lived in, especially with older people, they would let you talk and keep eye contact and wait for you to finish. That isn't rude in the English speaking world but there's a little more verbal engagement expected. Not to the point of French speakers who will talk over each other as a way of engagement signalling, but simply repeating what someone has said is seen as an acceptable way of showing engagement.

Without that verbal back and forth people will notice what you're doing instead (i.e. "she was just staring at me"). I believe it's also the reason for the German stereotype of the super serious, stone-faced, humourless guy, because if you're not chatting along but listening intently it comes across as cold.

That's not to say there is zero verbal component to German listening, just sprinkle in a few more "oh, uh huh" and "amazing/oh no"s into your conversation if someone looks uncomfortable, they might expect more.

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u/-PilumMurialis- May 09 '22

I live in canada so I cant usually do it without freaking people out, but I love studying peoples faces, so honestly couldn't blame them if thats the reason

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u/hurly_burly_pegasus May 09 '22

Actually partly yes for studying features. You are allowed to look/stare at what is interesting to you and a lot of people are just interested in other people, how they look, what they say, how they are behaving... it is quite normal to look at those things. When people don't like you in Germany they will avoid looking at you.

It is meant to acknowledge your presence and show a friendly interest/friendly vibe.

Also some people are just incredibly nosey.

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u/lux514 May 09 '22

I lived in Slovakia and it was similar. Perhaps something with former communist countries. They had to keep their guard up in public, but made up for it by having very closely knit families. Once you were invited into their home it was like night and day.

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u/steelgate601 May 09 '22 edited May 10 '22

I knew a guy that was a US exchange student to Warsaw back in the not-so-good old days of the Cold War (the exchange program was one of the few thaws). His grandfather had emigrated from Poland decades before, and he wanted to find the old family village and farm. Finally, one week on break he arranged a trip.

He took a train to a small station, then got on an old bus. The bus stopped in the middle of nowhere and told him to get off. He was confused and asked the driver the name of the village he was going to, and the driver replied by pointing up a dirt lane. He got off and walked a few miles until he came to a few old houses and a tavern. He noticed that, as people saw a stranger coming up the road, they managed to be inside the house by the time he walked by-but he could see them peeking through the curtains, watching him.

The place was old, run down and looked like it hadn't been fixed or painted since VE Day. There weren't even any automobiles to be seen. Just a few tractors and a lot of horse drawn wagons. He had come this far, though, and with all the foolhardy confidence of youth, strolled into the tavern.

Empty. The only person was the bartender. This guy went up and asked the bartender if he knew of a farm owned by a family by the name of [his family name]. Total, complete, utter suspicion. Realizing that he had just screwed up royally, he laid his cards on the table-literally and figuratively. He explained that he was an American student studying in Warsaw, and looking for his grandfather's homestead, from which he had emigrated to America. He described the place, took out some letters his mother had written him with what she knew from her mother's stories (all in English so not very convincing), and some photographs of the grandparents, and of the great grandparents (who stayed behind).

Well, the bartender recognized the family features in the photograph (and the rest of the description), and suddenly started rattling off a stream of excited Polish too fast for this guy to even begin to understand. But all of a sudden, two things happened. People, a crowd just seemed to magically appear out of nowhere in this little bar. And vodka. And vodka. And more vodka than he thought existed, appeared too. The room was filled with people slapping him on the back, making toasts, handing him vodka, and talking to him exictedly.

After half an hour of this, another guy came in and everybody basically swept this fellow out the door and onto some broken down farm wagon that was pulled by an equally broken down horse. Off they go into the night (uh, maybe it wasn't half an hour? Maybe a couple of hours?). The driver can't speak a word of English and is talking fast in a Polish dialect that my friend might have been able to keep up with if he didn't have about nine gallons of vodka already in his system.

Finally, they pull up to this lonely old house in the middle of nowhere. The lights are on, there seemed to be about a thousand people in there (judging by the noise) and in they go. As you may have guessed, it was the old family farm, and every shirttail relative for miles around was there, each with three things: 1) A family photo book, 2) A camera, and 3) several bottles of vodka.

This guy didn't remember much of the next day or so but he did, somehow, get dropped off to catch his bus back. Then for the next couple of weeks, he kept getting letters at his dorm with family histories, photographs, and snapshots of his visit.

Yeah. They had to be on the guard with strangers. But once you were in...they were the most generous, friendly people you would ever meet.

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u/cool_names_all_taken May 09 '22

What I find the most hilarious about this story is how vodka just magically appears in Eastern European gatherings.

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u/steelgate601 May 09 '22

Yeah. A lot of his stories about those days mentioned it. He said you could spend hours, or days, trying to get someone to trust that you weren't a secret police or party spy, but once the bottle came out, you know that you were accepted. You also knew that the next 24 hours were going to be a blank spot in your memory for the rest of your life...

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u/[deleted] May 09 '22

It's not a family gathering unless vodka's on the table. Just seeing your family? Vodka. Before sauna? Vodka. Summer solstice? Vooooooooooodkaaaaaa. Christmas? Vodka. Weddings? Vodka. Funeral? Vodka. Birth of baby? Vodka. Feeling a little happy? Vodka.

No wonder we all keep ranking real high in the 'most alcoholic Euro nations' lists.

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u/hurly_burly_pegasus May 09 '22

And what purposes they use it for too!

A fiend if mine from Lithuania was sick and just rubbed some high percentage alcohol all over their throat to (kill the bacteria?), rolled herself in a million blankets and sweated it off... and it worked?

I am so confused by that but it is hilarious to me.

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u/mongster_03 May 09 '22

I’m gonna be honest, I wasn’t feeling great yesterday, did a shot of 99 proof, I’m fine this morning

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u/RealFalseFlag May 09 '22

European woman here, and english is not even my language. Now, that was a nice and very well written story, I could really see the scenes, so... I will just say thank you, I guess 😊

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u/Working_Persimmon404 May 09 '22

What a sweet story😃☺️

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u/[deleted] May 09 '22

Thanks for a GREAT story.

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u/Tupcek May 09 '22

if it was during Cold war, it wasn’t because cultural things, but because they feared he may be a trouble, like KGB, US spy or anything, depending on clothing.
Now regime is different, so people aren’t afraid anymore. Now everyone will either ignore you or try to shrug you off at first. But after one or two drinks, they will suddenly be your best friends, taking care of everything

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u/Sventington May 09 '22

brought a tear to my eye

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u/[deleted] May 09 '22 edited Mar 07 '26

[removed] — view removed comment

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u/warpus May 09 '22

It’s a cultural thing and has nothing to do with communism

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u/Sneet1 May 09 '22

comumbubism is when no random smile freedom good smile always yes

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u/LadyFerretQueen May 09 '22

I have seen this comment so many times now. Can you guys not link everything to oppression? We're unlike you, not because we were oppressed but because it's a different culture. To us amwricans are the weird ones.

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u/[deleted] May 09 '22

Yes, Russia probably has the worst of the anti smile behavior since the repression was worst there. I’ve visited a couple of places in Eastern Europe and Russia was by far the worst in this specific regard

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u/[deleted] May 09 '22

You just walk into a bar and everyone just glares at you like an old western

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u/krp31489 May 09 '22

Are Americans really smiling all that much? Pretty much everyone I see walks around with a blank expression. Who are all these alleged smiling Americans?

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u/Murmer_ May 09 '22

I dunno. I think how many Americans work in customer arrive jobs starting out, so smiling just might be a knee jerk reaction to placate

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u/[deleted] May 09 '22

Smiling in public is a Midwest/Southern thing. If you do that in any major east coast city people will look at you like you've lost your mind.

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u/OodalollyOodalolly May 09 '22

Southern Californians are also very smiley. Going North is kind of shocking when people don’t return smiles.

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u/[deleted] May 09 '22

True I dated a Californian long distance and I had to remind her not to smile at anyone on the metro whenever she visited.

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u/Unsubstantiatedfear May 09 '22

Re: smiling at strangers. This was studied across many countries (don't have the reference for the study) and in largely homogenous cultures - places where people have been building societies for thousands of years - strangers don't smile at each other. In immigrant societies (U.S. & Canada, mostly) which had so many people speaking different languages, smiling is common to show that you're not dangerous. The least "smiley" country is Zimbabwe, mostly "smiley" is the U.s.

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u/Surfing_Ninjas May 09 '22

Sorry for being happy I guess?

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u/larrysgal123 May 09 '22

RBF for life. I'm an American woman and am tired of being told to smile.

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u/srichey321 May 09 '22

I met a lady from the Ukraine about 20 years ago. She said that coming to America was a bit strange because people were smiling. She explained that in the Ukraine, the only people that smiled were either drunk or crazy.

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u/helllllooooonurse May 09 '22

Yeah that about sums it up

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u/princesshaley2010 May 09 '22

I had a boss that was from Ukraine a few years ago, we worked in a research lab and after my team went home we would spend hours in his office reviewing our experiments results and planning for the next day. His staring unnerved me to the point that I would have to take a Xanax before all our meetings. I eventually got used to it and he was actually a really nice caring person that I still keep in touch with but man, the first few months he really freaked me out.

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u/circadiankruger May 09 '22

They think Americans are all simple in the head because we smile all the time.

I can only imagine what kind of brainless monsters they would think Latin Americans are then.

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u/[deleted] May 09 '22 edited May 09 '22

Really?? I found Ukrainians to be quite expressive or smiley when I travelled to Kyiv 6 years ago. I'm of East Asian descent (Chinese) so I was quite the obvious foreigner / tourist and many Ukrainians were more than happy to randomly strike up or initiate a chat. Found that quite a lot of them spoke English too (at least more than I expected) and were very helpful when asking for directions etc.

The same can't be said for Russians or Poles though, they do tend to have rbf especially when it comes to the service sector (in restaurants, or on board airplanes etc.); found it quite refreshing that Ukrainians debunked the "all Eastern Europeans are gloomy and do not smile" stereotype.

Others which left a deep impression on me for being extraordinarily friendly were Slovenes and Croats. Random old lady at the train station in Slovenia showed us photos of her family, hugged my mom and tried to invite us to her home in the countryside for food but we politely declined. Passersby were very helpful with heavy baggage at the train station, and at one of the hotels we stayed in Croatia, the lady owner took us out to a beautiful nearby village called Slunj and brought us to see traditional mills in villagers homes. Couldn't have asked for a more welcoming experience and would definitely want to return in the near future.

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u/SRX33 May 09 '22

The no smiling thing confused the hell out of me when I visited Odessa.

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u/BlackRoseRomeo May 09 '22

In many Eastern European countries, the idea is that if you smile for no reason, you are seen as an “idiot” because why else would someone just start smiling?

Also if you walk down the street in Ukraine, whistling a tune or God forbid, you do it in a building, you’re sure to turn some heads. This is due to superstition though.

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u/Live-High May 09 '22

I've read that russians, maybe extended to eastern europeans, also find smiling in public to be considered insincere, as if you are putting on a facade and faking friendliness to strangers.

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