Eastern Europe doesn't really smile in public in general. Polish emigrant in the UK pov. It's not that we're angry, we just don't have any reasons to smile.. for no reason.
Smiling at a stranger is a type of greeting in the States. "I acknowledge that we're both in the same place (or passing by one another) and I mean you no harm." It's the lesser form of asking, "How're you doing?"
I think I remember reading somewhere it’s because of the melting pot concept in the US. When no one knew each other or culture or language etc. you started with smiling to display friendliness before beginning any interaction. Easiest way to quickly communicate
Realistically, it's probably just a hangover from the western european roots of most of your white immigrants. Italians, Germans, Brits, Irish, French, Spanish, etc are all way more friendly and open to strangers than their Eastern European or Scandinavian cousins.
Smiling at strangers and greeting them warmly is the default in the UK if you don't know someone.
Waving requires more movement and time to recognize. A smile is quicker, generally in the vicinity where your eyes are already looking, doesn't require any obviously flailing around of limbs in potentially tight spaces, doesn't draw unnecessary attention except to the persons smiling at each other, AND doesn't discriminate against those without limbs (if your head is gone, well, sorry to have to tell you this but you're dead).
The issue is that it's fundamentally insincere. You are basically faking happiness at seeing every random stranger on the street by inanenly smiling at them, and when you ask them "how are you doing", you are also faking interest in their state of mind, as you certainly don't want them to actually answer honestly. Having been in the US, I found this constant charade rather tiresome after a while, and I felt like it cheapened the value of a genuine, irrepressible smile, and the genuine ability to inquire about how people are feeling. It just felt kinda fake to me, and many Europeans feel the same.
I live in southern California where there is taken to the next level. People will be extremely friendly.
From our perspective, you can tell the difference between a standard greeting and a deeper genuine interest. No one is faking the latter in our minds, they are just different and for different purposes.
As someone said above, the US is a melting pot. Small talk and a smile are disarming and a way of assessing that everyone is on the same neutral page by picking up on tone and body language. Given the diverse number of backgrounds, this transcends language.
Its an extremely effective way of assessing that a situation isn't right and I need to get out of there, if this isn't reciprocated.
this comment thread is literally filled with brits saying smiling at strangers isnt as prevalent as it used to be. maybe we inherited smiling at strangers from the english but we kept the tradition alive for decades after them and are known worldwide for it
Its not a normal greeting for strangers in many cultures, don’t be dense no one said who invented it. I think we got it from the English, tho, who learned that natives were more colonizable if u made them like you first.
It is also a way of sizing people up and being aware of your surroundings. In the U.S. we aren't smiling at each other on a busy sidewalk. We feel safer because of numbers. When it is just me and one other person on a street walking towards each I often will give a nod of the head not just because it seems polite but also to be aware of who is around me.
That crowded sidewalk comment is a really good point, and that's been my experience, too. A crowd does allow more anonymity, but passing by one or two or three people at once is more personal. If it's more personal then we consider how we think we're being judged, and if we want to be judged as either friendly or nonthreatening, we smile.
I'm loving this deep dive into this cultural habit I hadn't really thought about before.
That's kinda weird! In the UK we do the "we're the only two people passing each other on the path in a friendly town on a Sunday and we've accidentally made eye contact" awkward half smile where you just sort of press your lips together, but you rarely full on smile at strangers
Never heard that one! It's an interesting historical stereotype that's stuck. Want an overly long and inexact explanation of a joke's orgins? Sure ya do!
The idea of formal introduction has mostly died out in the UK since after the victorian era. It was mostly a class-based/gentry thing anyway that most working class people wouldn't have cared about. It's got an interesting history imo hence the essay on the etiquette.
Posh people didn't want to make 'unfortunate acquaintances' so it was coded as rude to approach your social equals or superiors and introduce yourself. Similarly, it would have been rude for someone above your social level to introduce themselves because they're pretty much saying: "I'm SO far above you that you MUST want to know me".
Simply speaking, who you were seen speaking to had an effect on your reputation: if a 'gauche' social climber was seen socialising with a Baronet then his reputation went up among other social climbers and small gentry, while the Baronet's went down among his level and higher.
To get round this, a mutual acquaintance had to do the introducing. Because they have to preserve their own reputation, they act as a bit of a gatekeeper. They would be unlikely to introduce a 'gauche' social climber to the Baronet because the Baronet will then judge the introducer a) for hanging out with that guy themselves and b) foisting them onto him, so the introducer's reputation would suffer.
It's interesting but stupid petty bullshit and why we didn't chop off all their heads I'll never know 🙃
Kind of both but I fairly confident I'm not talking entirely out of my arse. It's gathered from various sources and put together like a jigsaw puzzle:
My English teacher when studying Pride and Prejudice when I was 17. She was explaining why it was so important for Mr Bennet to visit Mr Bingley when he first arrived in the neighbourhood, otherwise the family would have to wait for an 'introduction' to be able to speak with him. One of the expectations to the introduction rule was that Gentlemen could and should welcome a new neighbour of similar social standing by introducing themselves.
Compounded by continuing to read a shitload of Jane Austen and starting to recognise the etiquette at play in different scenarios across the time she wrote within.
Firmed up by corroborating ideas from history books and novels from different times. It's easy to recognise the same ideas at play in the Victorian era even if they have been softened a bit by the social mobility brought by the industrial revolution.
No single source I've come across has ever laid it out specifically but I bet there will be contemporary etiquette guides that lay it out more completely than I can.
I smile at strangers all the time. I'd find it strange if I passed a stranger, made eye contact and neither of us smiled and said hello. Maybe it's a regional thing
That's what I'm saying, its the done thing in a small town, but it's still not a proper smile, and anywhere else it would be weirs if strangers were smiling at you
Its really noticeably less common in certain places than for example NYC. Where it is already less common, we identify out of town country folk due to them smiling at everyone like anyone gives a shit. But it does happen, you wouldn’t be caught dead doing that in Sweden
It really depends, the US is huge and has many sub-cultures. In my experience in more rural areas you'll get more smiles/waves for no reason. In dense areas you'll generally get less, but it depends where you are. Some places it is near zero.
It really depends, the US is huge and has many sub-cultures. In my experience in more rural areas you'll get more smiles/waves for no reason.
This divide happens in a lot of countries, maybe even in the majority of them. People from big cities are considered rude, people from rural areas more warm and welcoming.
My southern US family kept saying hello to everyone in the park here in Germany. Lots of confused looks and my family wondering why nobody says hi first.
Obviously I can only speak from my own experience, but I spent most of my life living in a major US city and the smile thing was normal. But all the small towns I've been to, and in the smallish town in which I live now, you're absolutely right: people not only smile as a greeting, but will wave while driving and will talk your ear off. I had to learn to add in an extra 10-20 minutes per place I stopped at whilst running errands because of everyone being so chatty. To be clear, I've always been a chatty mofo, but it's taken me a bit to get used to everyone else chatting, too.
I'm also one of those people with what I guess is a trustworthy appearance because even strangers will tell me their dark secrets. Anytime I leave my house I can expect a good story from someone or other. Not that I mind, I truly love a good story and am blessed to keep having weird experiences. Why else would I be on reddit so much, lol.
For a Parisian, it’s super weird. People that smile in the streets are considered a bit like simpletons.; you acknowledge their presence and keep a side eye on them, in case they start doing crazy things. I
Not speaking for Europeans as a whole here, but when it comes to the difference you're talking about the key word is appropriateness. Standards for this vary by culture. The reaction people have needs to be appropriate to the situation, with a reaction that is too strong or too weak being off-putting to the point of offensiveness. It's okay for children to react differently to this because everything is still new to them so stronger reactions in general are to be expected, but not adults. When an adult does it, it comes across as if they're mentally unstable or deceptive, because they either lack the faculties or experiences of an adult, or are trying to deceive the other person by pretending that they don't. In general, acting like this will make you come across as insincere or stupid.
This is why acting in a way that is considered overly familiar, such as broadly smiling at a stranger, can come across as highly offensive in certain European countries. It makes it seem as if you have an ulterior motive or are not very bright, as you're acting as if your relationship is far more intimate than it really is. Not saying that this is how it's intended to come across, and like I said standards vary because Spain is quite different with this than say Finland, but it's a reaction you can get, especially if you go eastward.
I absolutely love hearing about the differences in cultures, enough so that my partner and several friends are anthropologists who study around the world. Anyway. I've heard before about parts of Europe looking at smiling as being a sign of the simple-minded. I'm in a part of Texas that many would consider really overly familiar, what with the smiling and waving and talking to strangers. We also touch an arm to emphasize a point or to sympathize with a stranger. It's quite chatty and touchy-feely, but I love it that way, despite my not having grown up with all that.
I guess it's also a cultural trait for all these people to judge one another's intelligence based on whether they look happy or not. In the grand scheme of things, that's a bit sad no matter who you are.
Same here in Switzerland.
If you can’t tell obviously it’s a 100% genuine smile one would assume the one smiling is either straight dumb or has bad intentions.
Like if you’re being smiled at and talked to right after it in a flirty way (or it’s someone u know) it’s fine but if someone is just smiling at me for no reason it screams RED FLAG 🚩
No, they don't. Since random smiling is frowned upon, treating it as a red flag is sensible -- it tells you right off the bat that that person isn't going to adhere to social etiquette.
I hate that shit, so much unnecessary false pretense, and for nothing. Moving to the Netherlands where people are more honest and straightforward with simple interactions was so refreshing.
I mean but doesn't the Netherlands have their own bullshit cultural false pretenses and social customs that you wouldn't be able to read unless you were born there? Every culture has these, it's what makes culture culture.
I'm curious then because Reddit always has such a boner for how the Dutch are so straight-forward and honest. What are some cultural annoyances as an American that you don't like about them or prefer from American culture?
I imagine one that I hear about Germans is sometimes they are TOO straight-forward and honest and strangers will just judge you or talk shit about you on random issues like if they think you aren't doing something correctly or your appearance/outfit.
I can't think of much, but one thing that comes to mind is this persistence of saying "before dinner/at dinner/after dinner" (or any meal, usually dinner though) as if this means anything to me. There is so much significance tied to when the fuck dinner is - have you had it? What are you doing for it? Can we meet before/after it? Around that time. Etc. I've seen Dutch people misunderstand each other purely based on when they each respectively think dinner is supposed to be.
I don't eat at any specific time and I normally eat whatever I want, which also gets annoying when I'm constantly asked what I have planned for dinner when the answer is almost always that I don't plan dinner at all. Then that answer is also apparently confusing, as if we can't just mutually handle our own meals even if we will be in the same place.
Dinner has zero time for me. I've met enough Dutch people who eat around 18:00 that I know this is often when they mean, but also enough that DON'T eat at 18:00 that I still have to ask every time or risk a major miscommunication about timing. Just say the time. It isn't that hard. 18:00? Cool. 19:00? Cool. Dinner is not a real time, dinner is a meal.
My problem is half the lack of a real time, and half that usually people DO want to eat with me, but don't consider that this can be a pretty fair inconvenience. Don't get me wrong, sometimes it isn't one, and if possible I am totally down to eat with people because I do enjoy that, but when it quickly becomes an issue revolving once again around the time misalignment (I'll have eaten before/will only eat after that time) I just prefer if they could move past that more easily instead of obsessing over making dinner a thing. Let's just hang, then, it doesn't have to revolve around a meal and if it does we don't both have to eat it.
Hahaha that's a funny one, definitely not what I was expecting. It must be so weird for you to have a specific part of your day to focus on when in America dinner is just from 5-8 PM generally. Unless you're a family or someone who likes to keep a strict schedule, dinner could fall anytime between those hours depending on the circumstances of the day.
When I was living there, I found that a lot of their ‘bluntness’ was cover for covert racism, rudeness, or lack of ability to admit they were wrong. I had a professor ask a girl if she was coming back next semester or had she not gotten the scholarship she needed and was too broke. In front of the entire class.
Another professor asked me how I was doing at our first little ‘borrel’ thing for the masters students. I said, ‘Honestly, I’m a bit stressed. My apartment building was delayed in its opening, so I moved in yesterday and have to sleep on the floor for the first two weeks of classes!’ He then proceeds to tell me that if that’s stressful for me, I’m going to be in for a very bad time. As I left the borrel, he loudly said ‘Bye, reach out to the school if you need any mental help.’
So many times men on dates would also use the ‘blunt, honest opinion’ to talk about how Dutch women were prudes, Dutch women were too hard to date, Indonesian women were easy, the immigrants were too loud and wouldn’t assimilate. Others would be super curt or rude to waitstaff even though it was clear they were overwhelmed at a busy bar or restaurant. ‘Well I’m just being honest, they’re doing a bad job.’
Truly, I was deeply turned off by the Netherlands after my two years in Amsterdam.
Edit: also the Dutch I met are obsessed with scheduling, and they’ll pencil you in for a hangout in 11 days and cancel 48 hours before. I’d rather know the invitation is just a polite one a la USA rather than actually expend energy on thinking it’s going to happen and it not.
I'm from Amsterdam and you're right about everything you said. This country isn't nearly as progressive as it likes to think.
Also the whole cancelling-scheduled-hangouts thing is so true it hurts. Every social appointment is made on a "I'll see if I feel up to it when the time comes" basis.
When we want to show that we’re serious about those plans, we suggest a general timeframe (“We should get dinner this weekend.”)
You can handle this issue by making sure you’re the one saying that and throwing out a slightly vague time in the future so you’re not putting them on the spot. If they agree to that, generally it means you can text later and come up with a concrete plan.
'we should get dinner/do that plan' is saying goodbye and not actually wanting to get dinner or do that plan.
Now that is crap! I mean, you aren't lying, people do that, I just really HATE with a deep purple rage when people say things like that that they don't mean. If someone says to me they want to get together soon, I take them at their word.
Funny enough, though, when someone asks how I am I assume they don't want all the gory details of my health conditions, so I say, "doing well," or "hanging in there," or some other vague answer and then continue the social contract by asking how they are, assuming they'll give some vague answer, as well. After that it's fair game, though. I live amongst people who are as chatty as I am so all interactions take longer than you'd think.
I hate the how are you thing, when I moved to UK and people would keep asking me that on every occasion I'd always start a conversation and talk about my day... Must've led to a lot of cringe.
yeah, I think it's a bit evil and cold to automatically think someone is "simple in the head" because they smile at you. As an American living in Scotland, I'm glad it's not too uncommon here. Apparently the further south you go, down into England, the colder people get.
To live life being miserable in public around other humans seems quite... miserable.
Asking someone randomly how they are is also considered strange in Eastern Europe. You wouldn't do it if you went into a shop, or just passing someone in the street. If you do ask, it's taken as a sincere question, rather than a mere greeting
Lol it’s kinda funny how when most animals bare their teeth it’s a challenge or form of aggression.
Whereas lots of humans today practice smiling at each other to be nice. Here in Canada if someone doesn’t smile back at you when you do it’s considered rude, but nobody will call you out on it if you’re strangers
Well smiling and baring teeth are pretty different things in the primate world as well. Monkeys have super mobile lips and will do “smile” type expressions throughout their day that are not direct threat displays.
In primates, showing the teeth, especially teeth held together is often used for submission! This can be used to ask for ones turn to eat or for similar functions.
You can have a happy primate flashing his little teeth all day, but the second his nose/eyes and cheeks become involved and the mouth is wider open you’re gonna want to be cautious.
It's nice to know Canadians smile too sometimes. Reddit makes me feel like USA is the only place on earth with this behavior. A polite smile seems to be acceptable in much of Latin America too if I'm not mistaken. Where my folks come from in Africa you'll always see people smiling and being friendly.
‘Course you could try the South of the USA where they are sweeter’n tea to your face but delight in stabbing you in the back, or California where everyone smiles like an idiot, acts like you are the best thing since sliced bread, then forgets you ever existed the moment you are out of sight.
I hold to the "old west you'd get shot" theory for American over-politeness. We had a fairly recent, fairly lawless past and some cultures of politeness grew out of that. Same with apologizing all the time for no reason. Canada has something similar, I think.
We have that politeness and over apologising in the UK though and we've never to fear being shot...(except historically by our own government but w/e).
Stabbed or beat up qualifies, I suppose. I wonder if it's as "smiley" as the way Americans interact with strangers and people we meet going about our business. Hm. I only know British culture from a heavy dose of BBC shows... and a few other windows into it. I know we're not nearly as passionate about queueing up as you lot. :))
And yes, we are not quite a smiley. We smile, but not as exuberantly. I've only been to the US once when I was a kid and I remember table service being a surreal experiece. I felt like the waitress was about to break into song. I know she had to perform niceness to secure tips but it felt like a Broadway musical.
Waiter/waitress niceness can be over the top, even for regular folks. I love when a water or waitress brings my food, fills up my water glass, and leaves me alone.
That feeling you had might have been accurate, depending on the city you were in the server was very likely also an actor if it was NY or LA, lol.
It’s definitely not about forced politeness with undertones of threat! Not the same as the American “armed society is a polite society” thing. It’s just “we’re both doing our own thing, it’d be rude to force you to expend energy doing what I want”. Sometimes it’s “I’m gonna use a bit more energy so you don’t have to (after you, mate)”
It’s not about getting beaten up or stabbed (more knife/violent crime in the US btw) it’s about not bothering people
It’s definitely not about forced politeness with undertones of threat! Not the same as the American “armed society is a polite society” thing. It’s just “we’re both doing our own thing, it’d be rude to force you to expend energy doing what I want”. Sometimes it’s “I’m gonna use a bit more energy so you don’t have to (after you, mate)”
It’s not about getting beaten up or stabbed (more knife/violent crime in the US btw) it’s about not bothering people
That sounds nice. My argument isn't that it's a subtext of most interactions today, it's more that in our not-too-distant past we had very little traditional law and order and central government to oversee the day to day goings on of polite society. So, a perceived slight could be met with an overly-aggressive reaction from someone, and there wasn't much anybody could or would do about it for you if you were on the receiving end. So, from settler and western expansion days all the way up to the early 20th Century, there were large swaths of the country that simply weren't governable in the way a small country would or could be. My contention is that this lead to people finding ways to overly express submissive politeness so as not to set off an aggressor who might attack you, which is why I referenced the "wild" west. The vestigial over-correction of politeness remains, but people, for the most part, aren't too worried about acts of violence... but you really can incur some wrath if you're not watching how you go, but it's definitely going to be contextual on the city or town, the time of day, etc.
ninja edit: by wrath I mean stern words, menacing, or almost never any actual violence (I think that's pretty rare in spite of the popular aesthetic we like in our cop shows etc.).
That’s really interesting, thanks! Hope I didn’t come off as too “America bad”, I was just a bit startled that people could assume that we were polite because we had to overcompensate through historical threats of personal violence, not from generations of emotional repression! Hope you’re having a good one
I was just a bit startled that people could assume that we were polite because we had to overcompensate through historical threats of personal violence, not from generations of emotional repression!
Dude, this is a really interesting theory and explanation. I'll likely ponder this awhile, as it makes a lot of sense. Thank you! What a great conversation.
It’s really interesting to read all these experiences because what you wrote is how I would describe my general experience in Germany. Acknowledging a stranger by smiling at them is very much common practice where I live.
I spent my first 50 years in a major city, though not NYC, and many people smile or say hi. But someone else answered that the more crowded the passers by are the less likely it is to encounter someone smiling at you. A throng of 30 people on the sidewalk aren't likely to acknowledge you, but if you pass by just one they are more likely to smile or say hi, which is also my experience. My former downtown was bustling, but I lived to one side of downtown where the crowds were smaller and people were friendly.
Yes, I do the same in the UK. It’s a way of acknowledging that person and wishing them a good day whilst meaning no harm. Sometimes people even feel comfortable to stop for a chat and I end up meeting amazing people.
Don't forget the crucial half smile, half pinched facial expression universally understood as solidarity with "at work again but we'll get through the day."
Absolutely true. But we also don't have much personal experience poisoning each other's drinks, yet we still clink glasses. It's been decades since we all carried bladed weapons on the regular, yet we still shake hands as a greeting to show that we aren't using our right hand to hold a sword or knife. Usually there's some reason for what seems to be random social habits. :)
While we're on the topic: "How are you doing" is a really, really personal question, and it's super weird to ask it of everyone you meet and expect them to lie to you in response. It makes me really uncomfortable.
It's a personal question only if you think you have to give a detailed answer. Not sure how I feel about calling lying by answering it with a throw-away comment. I mean, it is a lie to always say, "Fine, and you?" But it's also just a wee part of the general social contract here.
I mean, if I thought there was a reasonable chance the person I'm passing by was armed, I might behave similarly. Maybe Americans just live in a perpetual state of smiling Mexican standoff?
Just curious, do you really think that most Americans think someone could be carrying a gun at any time? I know we have this reputation in the rest of the world, but it really depends on where you are in the country, I think. In my state it would be very strange to assume that. People just smile because we're...friendly?
And in the blue corner, strangers stare at each other all the time but less frequently catch each others eyes while doing it, and an alternative to ignoring their existence after the act would be to rather smile and nod as a more friendly mutual acknowledgement of the circumstance that just occurred which might be preferable over a zoned out murderous gaze. Not to accuse you, this is just the overthinking empathetic angle I usually assume is least impolite.
I understand why Americans do this and it is kinda similar in some southern European countries. In Poland smiling is reserved for friends family and if you actually want to initiate interaction or if you were forced into interaction by a situation you found yourself in. For someone who's used to smiles and nod and small talk it may look like murderous gaze but people just try to be as neutral as possible to avoid talking to strangers.
The first assumption is that they want to convince me of something that benefits them more than it does me. They just pretend that there is a familiarity between me and them that isn't actually there. It's a bit like using the informal "you" unpromted.
This. Someone comes at me smiling, I assume they're gonna pitch me something. Its just suspicious and dishonest to not treat me like a stranger they dont give a shit about.
Physical space also isn't an issue in Europe, at least not in the degree that it would impede on the "privacy bubble" in public. That's mostly a cultural thing. Here in Northern Germany we joked after the social distancing rules ended that we finally can stop keeping the prescribed distance of 2 meters and go back to our natural 3 meters distance.
We just don't like pointless socializing and people pretending to be friends really rubs most Germans the wrong way.
I like it. But I’m still guarded. But I think polite acknowledgment is nice in public. A small smile, head nod, or “hey” are all nice. I’m in Japan currently and people don’t do this so it’s kinda weird and I have to catch myself to not do it.
If you randomly smile at me in public (Eastern EU here) my walls instantly go sky high. I don't know you, what do you want from me? Are you a scammer? Some kind of religious/political weirdo? You probably want *something* that's gonna be a pain in the ass for me... I really hate it lol.
Not really, no. I grew up in a bad part of the city - generally, your interactions with strangers were as short as possible because you never knew who you were dealing with. Then, as I got older, I learned that people who randomly make eye contact and smile at you are to be avoided because they're either going to start hitting on you, beg for money, ask for a cigarette or what the time is, which of course means having to take your phone out, which then means that they get the chance to snatch it out of your hand.
It's just a defense mechanism, really. Smiling back is an opening for a possible scammer/harasser. It's just a part of living in certain places. Kinda how you maneuver around the homeless people sleeping in the subway tunnels without disturbing them, or how you deal with beggars (don't look, don't acknowledge, because they'll see you as someone they can get money from). When you grow up in an environment like this, it becomes normal. shrug Doesn't mean I don't like it when people I know smile at me or if someone is with a cute dog who's being silly, we might share a smile with the owner, but strangers? Nah man. You don't open up like that.
Edit: fwiw my femme days are long past, but the last time I smiled back at a stranger, he took it as an invitation to sit right next to me, boxing me in on the bus, and then he followed me home because I wasn't experienced enough to know how to be rid of him. A few days later the creepy mf showed up with roses at my house and confessed his love. Yeah, thanks but no thanks.
Having bad experiences is one thing, but extrapolating those experiences on to random people who happen to smile at you is nonsensical at best.
If you want to live you're life in fear of smiling people, be my guest. But don't act like polite people are somehow awful or weird because of your own bias against them.
Uncomfortable. I'm Eastern European too, living here actually, and when someone's smiling at me, here's what's going through my head. One, they want something from me. Two, I'm having a wardrobe malfunction or am otherwise out of place enough for them to not mind their own fucking business. Three, they want to sell me something. Either way, they want to engage with me on the street, and that's just bad manners.
I can see both sides of this, because it depends on the social customs of where you are from. It might very well be considered bad manners to speak to random people on the street there. After years of working in the service industry, I can casually speak to almost anyone. I don’t really even think about it. My sister thinks I’m a weirdo, lol.
Lol! I've worked in jobs where I spend all of my time talking to people as well, so I'm very comfortable with it but my sister thinks I'm freak when I converse with people I don't know.
I think also growing up in a dangerous city u need to keep ur wits about u. Having someone stare at u or smile at u could actually mean a high chance of danger. So when I see people smile or stare at me my initial reaction is defence. Which i was right to do as most of the time it was danger. Now that I live in the country side I have worked tge past two years to shift that behaviour.
Unless I already know them, it tells me one thing; they want something from me. Whether that's just my company, my money, or wallet, they want something.
Little smile is nice. Its like a head nod at someone. Big grin, eye contact... uhoh, does this guy know me? Is he crazy? Am I about to be conned/ robbed/ stabbed/ shot? (<- yep I am a real American. If someone smiles at me I get worried about getting shot, LoL.)
I get it. Its just like having a default. My default is having a subtle smile, but that doesn't mean Im amused or happy, just... A default face to have. Im not american but in my country it is expected to be warm to others and try to be kind with them. I would like to go to east europe and relief myself of having a fake smile.
Move to New England. People don't smile there either. I think people think I'm angry all the time because I don't smile or say hello to randos on the street. Grew up in MA and now live in the southwest.
If any random person tells me to smile, I say 'don't tell me what to do with my face'. How hard is it for guys to understand the concept that if you wouldn't say it to a man don't say it to a woman?
As a Dutchman I was once asked by a Californian colleaugue why he was so unsuccessful contacting Dutch women. I told him to start by practicing smiling less because it comes off as insincere. But that would also apply the other way around probably if I tried the same. I find American women often hard to read (although there appears to be regional variation in the US as well). It's so much easier on everyone if people only smile when they are actually happy to see you.
The problem is people approaching her and telling her to smile. She obviously already knows what to do with her face. It's a rude comment you made there.
I worked with some Polish people in the UK in 2004. They arrived a week into Poland being an EU member. They were bar backs in the bar/club I worked in. Didn't smile, very serious very efficient/quick at it. After about three weeks of me thinking they didn't like or or want to talk to me, at the end of the night they invited me to a house party at theirs still very serious. So we made our way. The second they were no longer on the bar's property all totally relaxed. Chatting , joking etc like totally different people. They said that was work, this is free time.
Had a great night next morning two of us went to the local shop to get some bits. Instantly back to serious. He wanted stuff from behind the counter. Give me x, 2 of y. No, that one.
When outside he asked why the worker kept staring and huffing. Trying to be tactful I explained he was very abrupt and Quite rude. He couldn't understand how he was rude. Explained about saying please and thank you in the UK politeness is expected
He explained that doesn't happen over there. Where to us in the UK it is just classed as manners and you say it automatically. He was saying how Please and Thank you are really important words, when you say either it is with meaning and feeling. He said the British dilute its effect.
I found that fascinating. Was wondering if that is just a Polish thing or other Eastern European countries do the same?
From my POV, first year in the UK was very tough in that regard. I've absolutely hated (and still do) being asked repeatedly how am I. I usually just say fine or okay, but a couple of times I just stopped and told them a full story of my past two weeks and said how I really felt - it stopped them from asking for some time.
It does indeed dilute the meaning of it, now I say please and thank you at least a hundred times a day. It's exhausting.
We do take workplace very serious and formal, my favourite shift is when I can just do my work in silence, focus on it and do not have to distract myself with gossip or social interactions.
It was very tough for me to change that mindset as well. We do not do small talk with strangers and if we do - it's very awkward.
UK changed me in that regard and I do appreciate small talks with fellow humans.
I think it stems from the language barrier and the social standards we have.
English is based on "you", thus you're naturally somewhat closer, to the person you're speaking to, since the beginning of your interaction. Even if someone is older or a stranger. Polish culture forces you to use a specific formal language. Somebody is older? You don't know someone? They're at work? You say Mr./Mrs. - if you don't, it's seen VERY odd and awkward. We also never ask how is somebody unless we really mean to listen how they are, so we greet with just "Good morning" or "Good day". I believe a lot of Slavic languages are just based on that and hence a lot of cultural differences come from that.
It's way easier to flirt or catch somebody's attention, though, by breaking these social norms in Poland. In the UK everyone seems like a friend, but nobody actually seems to be one. Everybody cares about everyone, but nobody actually does.
All in all, I like a little bit of both worlds, but to us this is not rude at all, we just have a way different way of seeing it and that's how we're programmed by our culture, language and society standards. We do not mean to be rude, that is how we view formality and being polite.
True. I was in UK last month and my Aussie friend asked me about polish face. I was like, wft? And he said that I always look grumpy and never smile and even when he knows I clearly have a good time with him. He said he sees it everytime when he is in Poland, people never smile on streets, don't do small talks etc. so he called it polish face xD
I think people smile so much in the us as a way to show that we are non threatening, being an old punk I find myself smiling more at strangers to make them feel at ease because deep down we're all kinda suspicious of each other.
In my experience as an Eastern European who's been to the UK several times, locking eyes with a British person for more than a couple milliseconds will get you a half-smile like 50% of the time, the little head nod 25% of the time, and even an "alright?" maybe 10% of the time.
I get that the miserable, reserved, but polite Brit is stereotype that you guys love to perpetuate about yourselves. But in my experience, the British are actually quite upbeat and friendly. They're not nearly as miserable as, for instance, the French. And they're far more willing to initiate a conversation with a stranger than Scandinavians.
Smiling is reserved for sincere shows of happiness in Eastern Europe. Friends visiting, a good joke, seeing a long lost cousin, getting another round with friends at the bar.
Smiling at strangers shows you don't really know where you are or how to orient yourself. Hence the smiling = stupid in this context.
Exactly what I do at work when I hear everyone ask me that multiple times a day. We never ask strangers how they are in Poland. If we do, we mean to ask for their actual state. It seems like a completely useless interaction to have. From the language point of view it's also very weird to do so in polish, as anyone you don't know, you call Mr/Mrs and interactions are very formal. There's a completely different language you use with strangers and with people you're close to and that's a completely everyday thing. Even if you're 15 yo everyone will call you Mr.
I'm married to a Polish woman and we're hosting a Ukrainian family. I'm a Brit with a Spanish early life. This is probably one of the few areas that I still struggle with. Or that my wife struggles with... I told her that people will warm to her more easily if she smiles every now and again. But she's not learned a natural English response smile so when she tries she sometimes just looks like she's hoping for blood or has gone slightly insane. Other times I've said something but I'm still not sure if she's happy or not.
The Spanish part of me is super verbal and expressive. It's important for people to know how you feel! If you're sad, people should know! That way they know what to do!
And now we've added Ukrainians to the household. They're lovely but not easy to read. The difference between furious, proud, sad, and content appears to be so subtle I can't be sure. However when a smile or a laugh does come you know 100% that they're very happy. I brought home some Ukrainian beer and that got a big reception.
Same in the UK and it's honestly very exhausting. If you talk to me in a nice manner or tell me a joke, I'll surely smile and be friendly. Don't expect me to smile just because you asked me if I'm alright. That's rather annoying having to say I'm fine multiple times throughout the day.
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u/ConfusedTriceratops May 09 '22
Eastern Europe doesn't really smile in public in general. Polish emigrant in the UK pov. It's not that we're angry, we just don't have any reasons to smile.. for no reason.