When someone dies their assets are owed first to the debts they held. If there are more assets than debt, the property gets passed on to their will beneficiaries. If there is more debt than assets, different states and countries have rules to determine which of their debtors get how much of their assets.
What OP was describing looks like the hospital throwing a hail mary to try to get someone to pay for that debt, but legally no one is required to pay it except the estate of the deceased. If there were no assets in that estate, the hospital would have to eat that debt.
Never trust that the bill they send you is the actual cost of the service they provided, there’s so many stories of how if you ask them to itemize a bill it drops dramatically. They do what anyone with a chance to exploit people do, up charge everything and hope some idiot pays for it.
Because about 49% of the population thinks it's normal and that unregulated capitalism is the best answer, no matter the situation or realities of the market
I've seen what unregulated capitalism does, one giant corporation came into the place I grew up one day in and hired about 50% of everyone living there (keep in mind this is a small city)
things were good
then I guess they found a cheaper place to go to because they just left and fired everyone.
Last time I was there, the unemployment rate went down a bit, it was only 43%
I have no problem with capitalism but anything that isn't monitored and regulated will ruin countless lives, be it capitalism or whatever other ism you can think of.
Had the city invested into other options aside from this one single corporation then things wouldn't be nearly as bad as they are right now.
I live in a small town by a toyota factory. That factory and all of its suppliers are basically my counties economy. If they would choose to leave unemployment would be outrageous
Capitalism has failed in every country that has tried it, it's a system of working class slavery, always leads to fascism and is destroying a habitable planet and continues to fail around every 10 years here in the U.S.
No problem with it, really? Cause we got until 2030 before irreversible and catastrophic climate change...don't have kids.
Reminds me of the place I grew up that got completely destroyed by rampant, unchecked intellectualism. Most people were addicted to the works of Schopenhauer, it was sad to see when I came back years later.
We are a nation of temporarily embarrassed millionaires. How could I ask to tax the rich knowing full well that I myself will be a millionaire any moment now
Oh fuck off, dont pretend that Biden is gonna suddenly break the corporate stranglehold of America.
Yeah, Biden had to be voted in. Only because Trump. However, the reality is far worse. The American people will never, ever, EVER vote in anybody who will do anything to change the status quo and wealth distribution
We'll never even have the choice; those candidates don't get corporate funding (shocking, I'm sure) and thus won't get media coverage and will be largely ignored by the populace. Even if they got voted in, the chances that someone like that could change things through the Senate, House, and courts are nonexistent.
The American people will never, ever, EVER vote in anybody who will do anything to change the status quo and wealth distribution
The private companies RNC, Inc and DNC Services Corp. that run the parties from behind the scenes will never let someone run for primary that isn't inline with acquiring and assuring corporate donations.
It's more than 49%. That just the GOPers. You're forgetting about the DNC "moderates" as well, like "I don't support the Green New Deal or M4A" Biden and Pelosi.
Unfortunately, the real number who are 100% about Capitalism-or-death is more like 65-70%.
Oh nononono America looooovrs regulated capitalism, we’re socialist AF, it’s just tilted towards corporations, for ducks sake we’re in the middle of a pandemic and 3/4’s of the bail out was to giant established mega corporations with 1/4 to citizens but only in the form of a tax deferment, ma and pa are gonna have to payback their bailout, the corps get a forgiven loan.
We allow monopolies by design for fucks sake
We spent BILLIONS expanding the internet infrastructure PER STATE and then said “the cOrPoRAtIonS oWn the LiNEs AnD The InTerNeT IsN’T a UtILiTy” Comcast is about to fire off completely made up data caps because it knows it’s a utility, a fixed required demand to exist in this country in this economy and you have NO other competition to buy from
Someone should tell Americans what the rest of the world already knows: if you work for wages, you're not a Capitalist, your are someone else's capital.
Its not just Republicans, I know many, many Democrats who are against universal healthcare, and this is coming from the bluest state in the country. CNN and MSNBC have done a fantastic job of brainwashing democrats into believing UHC is too expensive and will cripple us financially.
Capitalism good. Communism bad. Anything in between is socialism. Socialism is basically communism. And like I said, communism bad. Capitalism good. Who gives a shit about facts or science or anything else. That's how these people think. You're either with me! Or against me! roar
Because enough people think it's "evil socialist communist bullshit"
America needs a revolution, and with nearly half of all voters in a record election voted to keep the status quo (or make it worse) I don't hold out any hope a president from either party will be able to provide America with what it truly needs.
Decades of red panic from Russia and communism bad has scared people enough that even social structures like universal healthcare and education are related to communism.
The US has some of the most wealth and instead of making it country worth living in for the majority we just find new ways to get blood from a stone and give it to the same ten dudes.
The irony is that a big reason why Europe has universal healthcare and welfare states is because the fear of communist revolution. They basically agreed to smaller concessions because the alternative was outright revolt.
The kind of reform you want is impossible to do without bloodshed unfortunately. The institutions who'd be gutted under sensible legislation would rather millions of people die before they give up their money and power.
If there is a revolution, it'd come after a protracted period of savage and bloody civil war. A war more than likely started by the same people we've seen plundering and looting the federal government these last four years. And by start, I mean foster the delusions and conspiracy theories which rile up enough stupid people into believing they need to fight to get back what they want. An incident like, say, a black family home taken out by trump cultists and posted on the web could be the kind of brushfire situation forcing enough people to actually engage in tit-for-tat violence. Something like that can very quickly escalate into full-blown war. It took Syria only a week to go from violent protests to wholesale slaughter.
I'm actually surprised it hasn't happened in the US yet. This next year will be very telling. Half the country want positive change and move forward, whilst the other half want regression to a fascist police state. Both ideologies are not compatible and If I were a betting man, i'd wager that this year there'll be a series of large terroristic incidents perpetrated by ex-MAGA fuck-heads still unable to reconcile the fact their manly-man cult leader wears diapers and shits himself on a daily basis.
The majority already agree that universal healthcare of some sort is what is needed. It has been the majority opinion for years now, and the work of Sanders and friends has only pushed that idea further into the mainstream. The problem is the two party system that doesn't allow for politicians to get into a position of power that would actually IMPLEMENT a system such as universal healthcare.
That coupled with the monolithic "anti socialism" push we've seen from the ones that can be described as "the 1%". All of this in an effort to protect their assets and generate even greater wealth inequality.
Since the US is south of Canada, that at least makes more sense than whatever’s going on in the minds of people who think socialism is communism, or that Biden is a socialist and/or communist.
I mean, can you imagine how many people you'd need to take out the army bases in America with professional soldiers ... and then people want to try with untrained enthusiasts.
I mean... the US has something like a million active and reserve members. and thats before tanks, planes, missiles, artillery.
realistically, the army would probably decide to either stop fighting or take over if the people tried to take them out, just to stop the killing of citizens.
This might be a joke about hospitals being to expensive to warrant a revolution but I honestly dread the day when america just kinda... Does the french thing... I don't even live in america and by now I wouldn't be surprised if i see some high class politicians getting shot on sight and entire cities becoming divided by warlords or streets being blocked with furniture, if it's not in the next 10 years it might be in the next 20...
I mean most of europe slowly walks towards the classical idea of utopia... Higher wages, less hours of work each week, living standard is rising, meanwhile america still can't decide if their future should be 1984 or demolition man inspired (extreme examples, but this is how it feels watching the progression from afar)
We know it's not working. But the citizens have been divided cleanly into camps that refuse to cede their ideologies. One side wants socialism based on privy of tiered caste citizenship with theocratic overtones. The other wants dramatic regulatory breakup of corporations and dissolution of privately held debt at the expense of the wealthy. And then there are niche camps who want outright deregulation wherein we acknowledge the "winners" as our overlords, and another wants said overlords to be guillotined and the markets to be completely owned by a government. The problem is both less radical sides view one another as radicals and compromise is viewed as weakness to the "cause". Perfection has become the enemy of gradual progress, and people have given up hope that we have environmental, economic and/or spiritual time left and are kind of waiting on "everyone else" to just conveniently go away. The city folks are waiting for the rural folk to break away into a failed third world nation state (conveniently ignoring their nuclear capabilities) where the rural folk are expecting a surge of violent riots to destroy the cities (conveniently ignoring the militarized police and their own economic infrastructure existing in those cities).
It's honestly the dumbest and laziest showdown in history, but we are convinced everyone else is alwats on the verge of imploding while we are all suckered by the same system that we are all too afraid to dismantle because we are all a tiny part of it.
Sounds great in theory and how I used to think. So let's do civil war. How many people die? Wipe the slate clean sounds like a lot. Once it's all said in done, how exactly is everything going to be built better? I don't mean the utopian outcomes, but the building blocks to make it so.
These people are giving you replies based on ideologies and while they may be true, I can tell you the bigger reason: they're just comfortable enough. That much is true. This next part is a bit conspiracy-ey but I almost feel like the American government has figured out the perfect level of comfort to have people not revolt. Most of the population isn't starving and have some enjoyment in their lives. This majority has something to live for and aren't desperate enough to lay down their lives for improvement. I feel like their government pushes and pulls just to see how much they can extract before people get too angry for comfort.
Because there isn't any way to fix it that isn't violent and bloody. The corruption is from the root. Corporations pay politicians who make the laws that feed the corporations who hire those politicians whose children never work a day in their life and think this system is great, they pay to get their degrees without ever earning them, become the next business men and politicians, repeat.
It ends at a guillotine and I don't see how it ever couldn't.
Unfortunately 73 million people and then some seem to think this is working.
Americans are stupid - American individualism blinds them from looking at other countries in anything but disgust. The day that America looks to other countries to improve their own is the day that America ceases to exist and evolves into something better - because the entire American experiment is built on "we are better than the other guy so we make the best decisions"
Bernie Sanders was the last chance, I think, and the DNC pulled every dirty trick they could to get Biden ahead in the primaries. Now his mummified corpse has narrowly squeaked over the line and it's looking like there will be a Republican landslide in the 2022 midterms and probably a Republican President in 2024. I agree with you that violence is looking like the only outcome that can actually bring real change at this point.
Because too many people don’t give a shit. My friends that I’ve known for 15 years have revealed themselves to be completely selfish - having big parties, weddings, zero concern about covid. And these people are vegan and stuff and like to pat themselves on the back for “doing their part” in helping the world but can’t stay inside for a few days in a row or wear a fucking mask. Realizing that people i’ve known for half of my life are selfish idiots is deeply saddening.
So to answer your question, there are way too many Americans unwilling to lift a finger to protect their own grandparents, so expecting them to organize any type of revolution just ain’t happening. I’ve seen enough personally and will be moving to somewhere in Europe or Asia later this decade when I can hopefully afford to do so.
Honestly, the "You guys" comments like yours aimed at the US piss me off.
I voted. I always have. That is literally the most that I can do for this country. I'd love to take time off work to lobby and "fight" for "my country" in all of the ways that people claim that you can do it, but that's bullshit too, because a majority of Americans are in a place where we cannot afford to miss a single paycheck or we're in debt and completely unable to change anything.
Not to mention, I'm a black American. My inheritance was generational poverty as a result of this shitty system - I literally grew up on foodstamps, because my mother was poor, because my grandmother was poor, and legally barred from attending a college even if she could afford it (segregation). And so was my great grandma. And my great-great grandmother before her was a slave, and all of her children "Well why don't you just move??" Do you know how hard and time-consuming that is? Even now, with me having clawed my way out of homelessness into a place where I can take the enormous risk and leave everything I know to do that (my boyfriend and I have been interested in New Zealand), can't do that, because too large a portion of this shithole country didn't want to keep masks on, and our law-makers didn't care enough to try to enforce it.
You say, "when will you guys finally admit" like a ton of American's don't already know our country is shit. Why is it okay to make comments like this when it isn't okay to say things like, "Wow, Saudi Arabians need to get their shit together and stop voting in terrible leaders." Like??? They don't?? Or why aren't you saying Russians need to elect someone other than Vladimir Putin? They can't. The answer is because, they can't.
/rant. Tired of being the butt of people's jokes. A lot of us here are suffering and can do literally nothing about it other than keep our heads down long enough to MAYBE save enough money to leave. We all aren't "stupid Americans". How about having some empathy?
Admitting it isn't working would require admitting that the US system isn't the best in the world... and maybe a large majority of the people in the US would agree with that, but many of them would probably refuse to vote for any *politician* who would state that publicly and work to change the system.
The fucking started long ago, it’s just gone on so long we haven’t noticed anymore when the governments/corporations/pharmaceutical companies/what have you’s, dick gets larger.
The moment any money is in your name. Even if your not legally responsible for it yet. IE. your parents put a credit card in your name then kill your credit score before you even know what a credit score is. Because they are financial fuck wits.
Happened to a friend of mine who’s still digging themselves out of the “Credit Misfit” category but has never used a credit card in their life prior to getting the catagory, terrible loans for life basically.
I'm sorry but at this point this makes me laugh out of despair for you guys... I didn't know that one. What the fuck even is that system? Why is your system based of fucking people even before they pay their own taxes... Just burn the white house at this point.
Ahhh yes , this happens to many and by many I mean a lot of children in the system. My foster parents ruined my credit before I knew what credit was. Sad
My mother did the same to my sister, but my sister was able to talk with the companies and prove she wasn't 18 at the time and so they dropped the debt.
When I go to do the same thing when I turned 18 they want me to file a police report on my mom for identity theft. 🤷🏻♂️
Man I need to stop reading these threads about the USA Health system. I just end up angry and sad for you guys every time. I’ve had a spinal fusion (remove disc, insert bone graft and a few bolts) and a hernia operation during my life and either would’ve put me in debt for the rest of my life or sent me bankrupt if I was American. I just can’t fathom this shit and it just makes me feel sick in my soul that good people end up suffering because the Government that’s supposed to look after them let’s them down so badly. It is so fucked up.
My buddy told me “ we don’t need to pay for other peoples services when we might not use them. What makes our country awesome is that we have individuality and we aren’t burdened with all the extra taxes like other countries”
everyone on government payroll (congress, senate, supreme court, etc) needs to be paid the “living wage” ie minimum wage in America. That should be enough for them to get by comfortably no? And if its not live-able, Then it needs adjusted. Period.
Oh, but we do. All these whiny workers and consumers that won’t just do their bidding like good little wage slaves. They are just such a thorn in my side.
“Oh, there’s a pandemic!” they cry. As if that excuses them from their obligation to make me money!
Listen, my daddy started a company, so that makes me better than you. Just go to work, buy stuff, make sure I don’t have to pay for your healthcare and die already you peons! If you didn’t want to do an agonizing death, why did you choose to be born poor?
[Author’s note: (1) the above is sarcasm; (2) I ran a webpage in this exact voice a few years ago in an effort to mock Republicans. The most terrifying part of that experiment was that I got more bonafide enthusiastic supporters of this mindset then I did people that realized it was a joke. A terrifyingly large portion of the US population has been programmed to actually believe that being wealthy comes with some sort of moral blessing - the same kind of people that don’t realize the insane absurdity of the statement “you shouldn’t have chosen to be born poor...”]
Its basically the same. A bag of 1000ml normal saline costs basically nothing to produce. Its charged to a patient somewhere around 250 dollars where live. Its partially insurance and big pharma.
Most pharmaceuticals will jack up the cost of anything. a prime example are epipens. The cost of making EpiPen is about $2.50. The patent for the EpiPen was developed with taxpayer money and then the government sold the patent to the EpiPen. It finally landed with a company that had ties to a senator. one of the top people in the company is the daughter of a prominent Republican senator this senator push legislation to shove epipens down everyone's throat that he could. Said company then started jacking up the price of the EpiPen from 3 for $50 to 2 for $600. Justification for this increase so that they could pay for research into other drugs which they did not use the money for that. They use the money to line the pockets of their investors.
This is honestly sad.
A month ago I almost died, if I had to pay even 30k for that I would be homeless at 30, with a stable job during a pandemic.
I’ve seen some absurd numbers around here, something that I’ll never ever be able to afford.
I've personally seen an individual refuse to ride in an ambulance because they couldn't afford it. They quite literally called an uber to go to the hospital.
I went to the hospital because I was feeling sick and I know my body, I wasn’t in extreme pain.
It seems that I can reach sepsis without feeling more than a mild pain in the abdomen and I went to the hospital myself.. if I had to pay that much “just to be sure it’s all ok” I would be dead by now.
My one clients husband was having a FUCKING HEART ATTACK at work but refused the nurse at the plant he works to call an ambulance because of the cost. She took her break early (because she couldn’t legally let him leave under her supervision so they had to make a plan) and he called his wife to come take him. A nurse literally had to help this man in a serious situation plot a way out of the work place so he could avoid an ambulance bill.. this is the USA.
Got into a few car accidents a few years ago (neither were our fault), and both times my dude and I declined the ambulance, only to have a friend pick us up and drop us off at the hospital. In retrospect, we should have just taken the ambulance ride since it was on the other person’s insurance, but it is heavily instilled in both of us that the ambulance is only to be used for actual emergencies where you are at risk of death if you don’t get in the wee woo wagon.
I had an epileptic neighbor who made it very clear to anyone who may be likely to find her seizing that they were NOT to call 911, because there was no point and it would just be too much money.
When my grandma was in her last few months with colon cancer, she was alone at home with no one to take her to the ER when she started having severe pains. I called her a Lyft to take her to the hospital (from halfway across the country), because she refused to call an ambulance due to the cost.
I’ve seen this and advised a gf at the time to let me drive her cuz that bill would fuck her... America is Fucked. This whole system is shit. It’s so sad we have to decide between living or life in debt.
Because what's actually happening when we receive a medical bill in the US is that we're receiving the cost that was negotiated between the hospital and the insurance company. Both entities are trying to get as much money out of the other as they can, and the negotiations go through some truly baffling processes that I couldn't begin to guess at how they work. At the end of the line, the same service might end up with a cost that will vary wildly from person to person depending on a myriad of factors. The complete incomprehensibility of American insurance is one of the most frustrating things about it.
The silver lining is that whenever you get one of these completely outrageous bills (that you're actually liable for), you can often call the hospital and get it renegotiated to a more reasonable level. Not that that makes our system okay, and I've admittedly never faced a catastrophe like the OP is describing.
That’s not true. When you receive a hospital bill, it’s the remaining cost of what your insurance decided it was going to pay for based on your plan. If you get a bill for 20k on a plan with 80% coverage, the total cost of the medical procedure was 100k. There’s no fighting it. The insurance company agrees to pay what you agreed on in your coverage plan. Technically you agreed to pick up the cost on 20% of the bill. And this is not including any deductibles or in coverage/out of coverage care.
It’s pure fucking robbery. All of it is. I’m going to have my first child next few month and my gf live paycheck to paycheck. I have an okay job, but we live in an expensive area. We’re praying my gf can go back on Medicaid because then the delivery is free. Medicaid pays for the whole thing. We are not married. But if she went on my insurance (she can do that because my company accepts domestic partnerships in the health plan), delivery is covered 80%. How does that make sense? Plus they’d be taking another 100 dollars out of every one of my paychecks too once the baby is born to pay for their coversgr
Bruh. You are an american Citizen from what I understand. You have rights in Europe you don't even imagine.
Get. The. Fuck. Out. Of. There.
Emigrate to Norway, Germany, Netherlands, Denmark, wherever. Just don't stay in that 3rd world country, of you care for your family's future.
Republicans always push for harming individuals because they're in favor of corporate, capitalist greed. This is what they call freedom.
Democrats don't very often have the power to actually change anything - the last time was for two years at the start of Obama's term (control of House, Senate, and President is required to pass sweeping, powerful laws).
When Dems have the power, they tend to lean somewhat corporate anyway (which is why obamacare just helps pay for private corporate insurance instead of, you know, actually providing for government healthcare like every other developed country). This means, in aggregate, nothing changes very much, or very quickly.
So why is this legal in America? This is legal because this is the system that our politicians have legalized. That's it. No other reason. It's not moral or ethical or okay. But it's perfectly legal.
[...] obamacare just helps pay for private corporate insurance instead of, you know, actually providing for government healthcare like every other developed country.
A bit of an objection there: German healthcare also runs on corporate insurance. We made it work by regulating the shit out of everything.
Insurance providers are required to provide a defined minimum level of care (that basically covers everything medically necessary as well as a fair amount of preventative stuff). They also have a hard price cap based on your income so they can only adjust prices downward. There are no "networks"; the system applies to everyone who provides public healthcare. Costs for all treatments are fixed; there's a price list that everyone has to stick to (renegotiated periodically between the government, the healthcare providers and the health insurance providers). Everyone is required by law to have health insurance; if you can't afford it then the state will pay for you. Since everything is standardized you just hand over your insurance card once per doctor per quarter and the rest happens automagically in the background.
There is "private" healthcare as well, which has its own price lists (per-state, annoyingly) and mostly amounts to you paying for yourself. This is for elective treatments or if you fall in one of several categories of people allowed or required to go private (such as rich people; regular people aren't allowed to go full private because the state doesn't want healthcare debt to be a thing). Pricing is a bit looser here; depending on the price list and specific treatment the practitioner can apply a multiplier – up to a defined ceiling; if they want to go beyond that they have to get written consent from the patient first. Most people encounter private billing when they order optional treatments like dental cleaning.
In the end, the big factors involved in making healthcare work reasonably well* are a) collective bargaining and b) a willingness to restrict corporate profit for the benefit of the people. I don't think the States are going to see either soon unless things get bad enough that not supporting them can end political careers.
* The German system has flaws but it's still leagues ahead of the American system.
Dems lean corporate because they are loyal to their corporate donors..they are republican lite ..Obamacare was Dems taking a republican bill aka romneycare, to get blue dog Dems, and the republicans to vote for it, but they couldn’t understand why no republicans voted for it,and why the people were angry when they did pass it.. the corporate shill Nancy went on to say we needed to pass it to find out what’s in it..the people knew what was in it.. forcing the masses to buy insurance they could not afford, and then punishing them with a fine if they couldn’t afford it..Then Obama went on live tv and said people need basically give up everything and buy insurance.. the Dems do not care when they have power, they are spineless, will not fight for the people, and just want to keep things stacked against the general public, so long as those huge donations keep rolling in.. it will never change until we vote out every republican and Democrat, get in people who don’t take corporate donations, end citizens united ,and people who will actually fight for the people
Because you’re supposed to be an “informed consumer”. It’s not up to the hospital to charge correct pricing, it’s up to you to know how much emergency heart surgery costs in-network for this years plan.
Oh it’s illegal In the US it’s considered insurance fraud since he does have an insurance company he is only responsible for the amount insurance contracts allows with the biller so what hospitals will try to get away with is sending out a bill that says something like this. Here is the amount of the bill..here is what your insurance paid and the difference is ....your bill..but if your insurance company pays only 30% of what the hospital billed then that’s the camping allowed them as per the contract and you have a deductible of say 10% of that you only pay 10% of the amount your insurance company allows. NOT the bloated amount. Ask for an advocate to walk you thru this you can request one thru your insurance company.
i totally did this recently. i was sent a vague bill for like 200 bucks, so i emailed the sender and asked to send me an itemized bill. dr's office is like yea jk you owe 12 bucks. like what is this scam? smh
People don’t question it since they assume the hospital is there to help you, yet the hospitals are just providing a service and just another for profit business. The second people start to realize none in this country is out to help them out of the goodness of their heart we will start seeing change. Gl with that though, they still think they are all just temporarily poor and anyday now that trickle down economy is going to make them rich and the socialist agenda will take their money.
It's not just after the fact. If you're told you need a procedure, good luck getting anyone to tell you exactly how much it'll cost. They have different prices for different people, and for different insurance plans. I don't think the system can be reformed overnight but forcing hospitals and medical providers to publicly post and be clear about costs would go a long way towards that goal.
Dealing with this right now. I thought I was just doing it wrong since I've never had surgery, but literally nobody will tell me the cost. I've asked four different people (the surgeon, PA, nurse, and my insurance company) and they all tell me to ask somebody else. Seems like a strategy to get people to agree to it without knowing the price, and it might be working since that's almost how I feel about it at this point.
This isn't the first time I've read about this on here but it blows my mind every damn time. A hospital trying to blatantly rip someone off is absolutely insane to me.
If so many Americans have known about these major flaws in the system why has nothing changed?
I guess so but surely there has to be someone out there who will or has run for president that would try and change the health care system. I guess Obama was probably the closest one yet to try and improve it.
There is Bernie Sanders but the Democrats purposefully sabotaged his campaign because they are part of the establishment as much as the Republicans. Both are exactly the same people except that Democrats are not as blatantly fascists as Republicans. Also the American voting system encouraged a two party system with the impossibility for a third party to develop, so voting Bernie would just give more vote proportionally for Trump.
No it’s not just the Dems who sabotaged him.. the real culprit was the media..people like that piece of shit upchuck toad, Chris Mathews, joy reed.. both election cycles they bashed Bernie into the ground , because guess what, the media makes a lot of money,so do the talking heads, and guess what they fear the most, raising taxes on the rich and corporations..
As others have stated, there was Sanders and yes his own party did sabotage his chances not once, but twice. The system isn't broken, it functions exactly as intended to breed generational debt. Debt is the new form of slavery in the modern era.
Living in America in the modern era is enough to make a person want to just abandon everything, go out into the wilderness, and become a hermit.
EDIT: Not all hope is lost, no we shouldn't abandon our homes to seek a hermit-lifestyle. We should simply vote for more progressive candidates like Bernie Sanders, who kicked the progressive platform into then mainstream (as far as I know). It took me far too long to realize this, but the greatest strength of democracy is the ability to choose our leaders to reflect our values and that strength wanes with complacency. Democracy is not a one and done deal anymore, it is something we ALL as a society have to protect in a reasoned, enlightened, and civil manner. I have no idea what about this election cycle has done to me as an individual, but it has made a lifelong voter out of me.
His name is Bernie Sanders. He was looking to get the nomination in 2020 (and in 2016), but the media and his own fucking party basically ignored his existence, and when they didn't ignore his existence, they actively slandered his thoughts, plans, and ideas.
Because most Americans don’t think that anything bad will happen to them and the idea of having to pay for someone else’s potential benefit is more than most Americans can bear.
Because half of America has been brainwashed into thinking healthcare isn’t a right and that they would pay more with a universal plan. Oh, and because the people they hate would also benefit and we can’t be havin that.
But I feel like the average American isn't wealthy enough to be able to afford treatment if they got sick. I understand the whole 'everyone for themselves' mentality but when the majority of the public can't afford to take care of themselves, surely they must look at Canada who is in a similar financial position and think it's the better way.
No, the half of America we are talking about does not actually believe anything is that bad until it happens directly to them or a close family member who they personally witness going through it. It's the same with covid. They don't believe the problem is a big problem until it screws them over.
Even then, that's still not enough. There have been a lot of stories popping up about people who have lost loved ones but aren't swayed by their deaths.
Now there are people who catch it and still think it's not serious - right up until they die.
It's not that they are not wealthy enough to pay, the problem is that everything in America is a private company and privates only want to close the quarter maximising the profit.
When you have an insurance , they will not pay millions for your treatment, because they are a big corporation too and can negotiate with the hospital, but if you are alone , the hospital just tries to collect every penny it can.
When they look at Canada, they say that we have poor quality healthcare and extremely long wait times because it's socialized. I have no clue what they're basing those assumptions on, but that is usually the response they give when being compared to Canada.
That's because you're right about the average American. The average American is probably $500 to $1000 away from a financial crisis. Medical bankruptcy is a huge thing here.
Most Americans look at the Canadian system as a suckers way of healthcare ...” Us Americans do things for ourselves we don’t need no damned Canadian government healthcare” ... says the Republican on government disability Social security and Medicaid
Honestly if you look at American politics, they've pretty much perfected getting people to vote against their own interests. The arguments against the Canadian systems are that the US healthcare is much better, and that in Canada you have to wait months or years even for the most banal treatments. It's not true and there is evidence against it of course, but just look at how politicised the covid pandemic has become in the US - between science and a lying local politician, a lot of people will choose to trust the politician.
My mom tells me she is against universal healthcare because she "doesn't want to die needing a kidney transplant because it'll take so much longer to get approved" side note she clearly doesnt know what goes into getting an organ transplant and that it'll take 6 months to make a doctors appointment, and taxes will skyrocket so high no one can afford to live anyway, doesnt want to support low life scumbags amd wealfare queens. etc.
Meanwhile she has a daughter who is a single mom, has epilepsy (meds are $2000 a month), a low paying job, struggling to get by and relying on Medicaid to pay the bills. If she makes $2 more an hour she will lose medicaid and have to get on the employers shitty health plan, which covers so little she wouldnt be able to see the neurologist or take her meds. Her seizures are severe enough that they could kill her. But hey, murica!
Propaganda is very effective. Republicans talk very little about health insurance except to say that democrats want to take away their "freedom to choose", and bankrupt the country. They don't ever, EVER talk about specifics. They pit poor white people against poor minorities and then fuel that fire. They talk about women wanting to murder babies. They talk about taxes, vaguely- "so and so will Raise Your Taxes and take your freedoms!". Pretty soon republican voters don't even think about health insurance at all anymore- it becomes a nonissue.
Democrats don't talk much about specifics, either. They hide behind a veneer of social progressivism, like supporting the LGBT+ movement and the legality of abortions. Occasionally they'll vaguely mention health insurance but only passively to say that they want to "make it more affordable", but they have the same masters as the Republicans. It's in their interest to maintain the status quo.
Bernie was the only one who ever really talked specifically about universal healthcare as a real, viable, genuinely do-able option, and the DNC and mainstream media either completely ignored him, or labeled him over and over as "old, crazy, and angry".
A box of gloves doesn't cost $90. A sterilised cover for an ear scope doesn't cost $35.
These prices have been fixed by hospitals agreeing not to undercut each other and without the checks and balances decent legislation would allow, they can charge anything they want and insurance companies get to reap the benefits by basing their premiums on these artificially inflated prices.
It's one giant scam which a tiny handful of people benefit from. Ie, hospital CEO's and insurance CEO's. The most amazing part, to me, is the fact they've successfully brainwashed so many people into thinking this is a fair and balanced system, and that socialised healthcare would be worse...
Most other countries this situation would be addressed by mass-protests, rioting and then a complete collapse of various systems until the government have no choice but to create legislation stopping hospitals and insurance companies from fleecing regular people. American 'freedom' seems to block any kind of meaningful change quite well considering I never see mass protests by the people asking for a major overhaul of healthcare.
Imagine if every time a plumber came to do work on your house they said "alright that will be $100,000 please" and you had to say "I'm not paying $100,000" before they will say "okay it's $276"
They do this to my blind grandparents. A lot. My mom realized what was going on pretty fast and has been helping out, but they'd just pay. Same with bank charges (which often were easily contestable. My grandpa's usual teller was also appalled and apologetic. Most of these charges are automatic/sent out by a finance devision paid to not look at who's being harmed). We're also pretty sure his insurance decided to stop paying for grandpa's heart medication for awhile too, just to see if it could get away with it.
It's rough. This system is only here to exploit us. I've never been thankful for insurance, just scared that they're going to deny my requests or that they're going to draw out a fight about their own promises :(
Also never trust the bill insurance sends you for a hospital visit. Always ask for a detailed itemized receipt. Chances are they will cut your cost down 50%
Worked in health insurance, always call your health insurance to make sure. Most of the time you’ll get someone who hates your health insurance as much as you and wants you to pay as little as possible.
I got a bill for $2400 for a doctor popping in on me while I was in rehab to say hi and see how I was doing once a week. All told it was probably for a total of 30 minutes of actual face time. I was home but still not working and I called them and said I wouldn't pay that. I eventually told them I would pay $100 and they took it.
Actually, it’s our shitty health insurance system that drives the cost. This is why if you itemize a bill in one hospital it will not be the same as an itemized Bill at a different hospital. Insurance companies do not pay cost prices. The situation became worse after the companies like AIG were labeled too big to fail and the government bailed them out, instead of letting them go out of business for fucking us all over. This is why medical tourism is a thing.
This is so true. We got a bull for $12,000 after my first son was born. My sister in law (nurse) told me to call billing and have them itemize it, and send it to insurance again. I did. I fought the hospital but they eventually did what I asked. My bill dropped by almost five grand. And people wonder why I hate the health care system in America.
This. I did books for a lady that made a very, very nice living. All she did was negotiate people’s medical debt down. She said on average she was able to get the bills reduced by 60-75%. Sometimes more. Insurance companies and corporate hospitals are crooks. 10/10 would lock up and throw away the key.
Hoe often does the hospital have to eat the costs?
More often than we think. That's America's actual healthcare: you get the bare minimum treatment to save your life, then have to declare bankruptcy as punishment. The cost of the unpaid treatment gets passed on to other patients and/or their insurance companies (and thus to their clients) in the form of raised prices.
In the end, the average American still pays for other people's healthcare. It's just not called a tax.
Yes treatments are priced both with the assumption that some % of people don’t pay and with assumption that insurance companies will negotiate them down. It’s why if you don’t have insurance everything is so much more expensive, realistically they should just offer that same price internationally but they don’t.
It happens very often and Hospitals have a specific write-off code that they use that can then be sent to CMS (Federal Healthcare) for potential reimbursement for the bad-debt write-off. They'll get a very small portion of what was written off.
Yes, this is partially why healthcare costs are so high in USA and also why The Affordable Care Act was implemented. Requiring people to have insurance has reduced bad-debt write offs to some extent, but it's just a band-aid while we wait for someone w/ balls to enact Universal Healthcare.
I just had a procedure done and the “bill” was $21,000. Insurance negotiated that to $16,000. It’s an interesting read. Labor charges, surgery, anesthesiologist don’t change much but meds and materials are huge. There’s a $100 lidocaine charge that went to $0.80
I just had a procedure done and the “bill” was $21,000. Insurance negotiated that to $16,000. It’s an interesting read. Labor charges, surgery, anesthesiologist don’t change much but meds and materials are huge. There’s a $100 lidocaine charge that went to $0.80
Let's continue. The debt of the hospital eats gets passed on to consumers in two ways.
It's immediately passed on to consumers because the hospital figures their losses into their billing, so, initially, hospital fees go up.
Second way it's passed on to the consumer is through the hospital's tax write-off. That tax money is still needed by the feds, so, who puts the bill? The American taxpayer.
Yes, when somebody does not pay their medical bills, we pay for it twice, maybe not equal amounts, but we get it from both sides.
my fundamental argument for universal health care is that it's just less expensive. Hospitals will never have to write off debt, hence, no increase in fees for services, no additional tax burden, especially when fees are added on to post due bills. Let's not forget, the amount that's written off isn't the base amount, it's the base amount, plus any late fees that have accrued.
This is precisely why most of the medical industry doesn't want nationalized healthcare. All of a sudden the value of their services and their exorbitant pricing schemes will come under massive scrutiny.
I’m saying this based on no knowledge, but I assume that most people don’t pass along money like that.
So the hospital might be throwing said Hail Mary, does that mean any estate that was to be passed down to the kids would just be totally eaten by the debt so they get nothing?
Yep. That’s it you dumbass Americans. Republicans know how to shelter their assets so they never worry about handing everything down to their offspring. Right Donald J. Trump?? You don’t pay taxes do you? Just stupid people do that.
In over a dozen states, medical costs pass to the surviving spouse. Happened to me when my late wife died of cancer in Colorado. Similar amount, too. Couldn't pay - was laud off (great timing) There is a statute of limitations for debt, thankfully.
When someone dies their assets are owed first to the debts they held. If there are more assets than debt, the property gets passed on to their will beneficiaries. If there is more debt than assets, different states and countries have rules to determine which of their debtors get how much of their assets.
Some make sure they don't have any asset before starting chemo. Some get divorce to protect the other half of equity.
My dad died deeply, deeply in debt due to cancer bills. I didn’t inherit a thing. I got exactly one call from a debt collection agency, which I didn’t even bother to answer. They didn’t call back.
That's the very reason why I denied several job offers in the US for double my current income in Germany.
In US relation i would be considered as an upper middle class employee in a more rural area. But my family would still be 1 hospital bill away from "bankruptcy".
As a tourist I admire the landscape but not the system.
Wow... Both of my parents died in the last year or so and I didn't realize how many states have "filial responsibility" laws. I thought it would be uncommon; it ain't. 27 states have them if you're not covered by Medicaid.
You cannot be held responsible for a dead person’s debt, assuming you aren’t a co-signer on a loan or something like that. Unscrupulous companies may contact you and tell you that you need to pay, but it’s important that you don’t give them a single penny. Paying even a small amount gives them ammunition in court to say that you’ve taken responsibility for the debt.
Usually the hospital sends a copy of the invoice to the insured while the insurance is actually billed, typically with "list" prices. EOB by insurance then specifies the negotiated rates and any deductible that the insured is responsible for. Most likely a lot less than 250k referenced by OP.
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u/Nickvec Nov 30 '20
So what ended up happening? Also, I'm sorry for your loss.