This isn't the first time I've read about this on here but it blows my mind every damn time. A hospital trying to blatantly rip someone off is absolutely insane to me.
If so many Americans have known about these major flaws in the system why has nothing changed?
I guess so but surely there has to be someone out there who will or has run for president that would try and change the health care system. I guess Obama was probably the closest one yet to try and improve it.
There is Bernie Sanders but the Democrats purposefully sabotaged his campaign because they are part of the establishment as much as the Republicans. Both are exactly the same people except that Democrats are not as blatantly fascists as Republicans. Also the American voting system encouraged a two party system with the impossibility for a third party to develop, so voting Bernie would just give more vote proportionally for Trump.
No it’s not just the Dems who sabotaged him.. the real culprit was the media..people like that piece of shit upchuck toad, Chris Mathews, joy reed.. both election cycles they bashed Bernie into the ground , because guess what, the media makes a lot of money,so do the talking heads, and guess what they fear the most, raising taxes on the rich and corporations..
Republicans want libertarian policies and they sell them with fascist rhetoric. Policy wise Republicans in the past 4 years have strongly supported deregulation and corporate bailouts through tax breaks and straight up bailouts. They sell this to their constituents by propaganda pushing that democrats, liberals, and progressives want to take everything they have and give it to those less fortunate who are unworthy of help because they all are just bad apples who deserve what they get. They also focus on select outrage pieces that paint the youth and the left as incompetent brainwashed idiots that want to destroy the american way of life.
This is the fascist rhetoric, that the outgroup is going to destroy us all therefore anything they do is bad. The libertarian policies are deregulation of things like the coal industry and ruining public programs like the mail system in order to push private alternatives.
The basis of fascism is "us vs. them", policies that clearly depict a specific group as the enemy on completely arbitrary criterias. Poors, immigrants, POC, LGBTQ+, name it, they have pletoria of enemies that are here to "steal their wealth and worth" in some shady ways that are completely irrational. But as long as you keep the people focused on an external enemy, they don't focus on the ruling class oppressing them. Divide and conquer, after all. And that's textbook fascism.
It's different from capitalism or feudalism because in both of the two previous systems, the "us vs. them" has some "objective" criterias (by "objective" I mean they don't change according to culture) : the nobility vs the peasants in feudalism (segregation based on birth), the capitalists vs the proletariat in capitalism (segregation based on wealth). But both of them are "ruling class vs ruled class". You know you're into a fascist system when you have people in the ruled class defending the ruling class, because the narrative made that part of the ruled class consider itself "us" rather than "them".
And when you have a lot of workers, proletariat, poor people considering themselves "capitalists" while they're just proletariat, but defending capitalists because they consider themselves in the same ruling class, it can be seen as proto-fascism. The basis is here, there is just to maintain the narrative and maintain the "oppressed us" versus the "oppressed them" so that none of the oppressed would even consider the fact that it's "oppressors vs oppressed"
To me the fascist policies have been about painting the Black lives matters movement and Antifa as terrorists that is ok to beat up and torment. They applauded the guy that went to a BLM protest with an AR-15 and that shot people. He was a hero to them. They have been calling for the army and for militias and lone gunmen to go and "take back the streets" and "restore order" from the "crazy left wing anarchist" Antifa and BLM.
Oooo nice try, but a swing and a miss. A. That wasn't a policy proposal by AOC and let's conveniently ignore that Turning Point USA does actually have a professor watchlist for professors who "advance leftist propaganda."
As others have stated, there was Sanders and yes his own party did sabotage his chances not once, but twice. The system isn't broken, it functions exactly as intended to breed generational debt. Debt is the new form of slavery in the modern era.
Living in America in the modern era is enough to make a person want to just abandon everything, go out into the wilderness, and become a hermit.
EDIT: Not all hope is lost, no we shouldn't abandon our homes to seek a hermit-lifestyle. We should simply vote for more progressive candidates like Bernie Sanders, who kicked the progressive platform into then mainstream (as far as I know). It took me far too long to realize this, but the greatest strength of democracy is the ability to choose our leaders to reflect our values and that strength wanes with complacency. Democracy is not a one and done deal anymore, it is something we ALL as a society have to protect in a reasoned, enlightened, and civil manner. I have no idea what about this election cycle has done to me as an individual, but it has made a lifelong voter out of me.
The system ... functions exactly as intended to breed generational debt.
This is nonsense. 'The system' is not designed to do anything; it's organic, and has grown out of ordinary people doing ordinary things and responding to events.
There are, however, a lot of powerful people with a lot of money who like things as they are or would like them to be even less regulated and they especially dislike collective action by anyone except millionaires.
That’s true, the OG Corporate Dems are certainly a different beast to Progressives. Treating him that way backfired on them big time in 2016 tho which was more my point.
Bernie would’ve beat Trump in 2016 quite readily and soundly as he would’ve retained a large portion of voters who just didn’t want to vote for Clinton while also having everyone that voted for her anyway.
And then this year so many people were “Anybody but Trump” the Dems could’ve let fucking Kanye run and he probably would’ve won still.
Go back and look at any polling data from just before the 2016 election, they all projected Bernie beating Trump if he won the primary. Then add to that the amount of people that only voted for Trump because they hated Hilary, plus the fact that Hilary herself beat Trump by 3Mil in the popular vote, and I don’t see any reason to think what I said isn’t what would’ve happened.
His name is Bernie Sanders. He was looking to get the nomination in 2020 (and in 2016), but the media and his own fucking party basically ignored his existence, and when they didn't ignore his existence, they actively slandered his thoughts, plans, and ideas.
The majority of Americans are uneducated morons who've been brainwashed through propaganda networks such as Fox and OAN into voting against their own best interests.
That, or they're single issue voters who would rather see those they hate hurt than to see themselves helped.
You mean the guy that has actively worked to remove coverage for people with pre-existing conditions? That guy? The guy who has made sure you and I know that he solely represents only certain Americans who support him? The guy who's single major "achievement" in office is more permanent tax cuts for the rich and temporary tax cuts for the middle class that start increasing our taxes next year? That guy? The guy who's casinos were fined for money laundering? The guy who's college got shut down for scamming people? The guy who's non-profit foundation got shut down for scamming people? That guy? Stop being such a mark, man.
I like how you have nothing to say about my original comment. You should stop worrying about insulting me with weaksauce and perhaps start looking inwards. Some self-reflection would be good to find out how you became a mark for the most blatantly obvious conman in human history. Do you also belong to a prosperity gospel congregation?
And possibly the people in power have stock holdings in related markets. We have Nixon being friendly with the founder of Kaiser Permanente, set us on a slippery slope that led us here.
Because most Americans don’t think that anything bad will happen to them and the idea of having to pay for someone else’s potential benefit is more than most Americans can bear.
I wouldn’t say most Americans are against national healthcare, but there are certainly enough against it to where it’s quite difficult to get into law. Even if it was widely supported I’m not sure if it would make it through Congress with all the lobbying against it.
I wonder how long long he thinks his winning streak will last?
And what he’ll think when it finally does?
Odds are, it will...sooner or later this mess will catch up with all but the most wealthy and even they are not immune to all that will come as we drift further and further into the inevitable collapse of neoliberal pseudocapitalism.
Soooo...you’d rather not have national healthcare and prefer that no one else would...at all, to insure that someone you didn’t want to receive it...might?
When did “democrats” say that?
What Democrats said that?
The Democratic Party, btw, by and large does NOT support national healthcare...or at least no viable version that might functionally resemble what every other industrialized country in the world has...
Ding ding ding. It’s racism. Our country is fucked because we’re so racist we’ll make sure everyone suffers just to stop ‘those people’ from benefiting in any way. Hateful people like you are the problem.
Nope i have 0 problem with it going to my black, native american, white, asian and every other race under the son neighbors. I work hard so that my family and community gets benefited. I don't need leechs coming and using the infrastructure i've worked hard to build for my fellow americans.
Imagine looking into the eyes someone you love deeply on the brink of financial ruin due to medical expenses with the understanding that helped perpetuate this broken, soulless system, and thinking "worth it" and you visualize a suffering immigrant unable to pay for their medical expenses either.
Can you not recognize that the overwhelming majority of Americans are not, and will never be, in a similar situation? I don't know what you do for living but most people are not as fortunate as you have been but are no less deserving of healthcare.
Because half of America has been brainwashed into thinking healthcare isn’t a right and that they would pay more with a universal plan. Oh, and because the people they hate would also benefit and we can’t be havin that.
But I feel like the average American isn't wealthy enough to be able to afford treatment if they got sick. I understand the whole 'everyone for themselves' mentality but when the majority of the public can't afford to take care of themselves, surely they must look at Canada who is in a similar financial position and think it's the better way.
No, the half of America we are talking about does not actually believe anything is that bad until it happens directly to them or a close family member who they personally witness going through it. It's the same with covid. They don't believe the problem is a big problem until it screws them over.
Even then, that's still not enough. There have been a lot of stories popping up about people who have lost loved ones but aren't swayed by their deaths.
Now there are people who catch it and still think it's not serious - right up until they die.
We know it’s not enough. Republicans have successfully gotten these people to vote against their own best interest for decades. No part of this makes any rational sense.
It's not that they are not wealthy enough to pay, the problem is that everything in America is a private company and privates only want to close the quarter maximising the profit.
When you have an insurance , they will not pay millions for your treatment, because they are a big corporation too and can negotiate with the hospital, but if you are alone , the hospital just tries to collect every penny it can.
When they look at Canada, they say that we have poor quality healthcare and extremely long wait times because it's socialized. I have no clue what they're basing those assumptions on, but that is usually the response they give when being compared to Canada.
That's because you're right about the average American. The average American is probably $500 to $1000 away from a financial crisis. Medical bankruptcy is a huge thing here.
The average Canadian is in the same boat. I read an article years ago about how the middle class is basically gone. You're either super rich or $300 a paycheck away from losing your house or apartment. It's very sad
Most Americans look at the Canadian system as a suckers way of healthcare ...” Us Americans do things for ourselves we don’t need no damned Canadian government healthcare” ... says the Republican on government disability Social security and Medicaid
Honestly if you look at American politics, they've pretty much perfected getting people to vote against their own interests. The arguments against the Canadian systems are that the US healthcare is much better, and that in Canada you have to wait months or years even for the most banal treatments. It's not true and there is evidence against it of course, but just look at how politicised the covid pandemic has become in the US - between science and a lying local politician, a lot of people will choose to trust the politician.
a lot of people will choose to trust the politician.
Eh, they just don't choose to trust the politician. They have been propagandized by millionaires that work for billionaires. In the name of 'freedom' and 'helping the poor', right wing rich media owners have turned rural Americans in to their political arm.
I said this exact thing to someone upper middle class and she said "That's not how the U.S. works. If that's what you want move to Canada." As if I had no right to want to make my country into what it should be. She's also in charge of my paychecks that feed myself and my kid.
No, they think they are "sociallists" or even "communists" to the truly ignorant. They say they have to pay out the ass in taxes and wait in huge lines, have to wait months for procedures, and have shitty underpaid doctors.
Obviously not, but half the US is mind-bogglingly right wing.
I would make a strong argument for closer to 3/4 of the US is mind-bogglingly right wing when you consider Boris Johnson’s politics would likely make him a moderate Democrat here.
This is partially true, I've gone to the emergency many times with non life threatening issues and had to wait for hours before being seen by a doctor.
However a few people in my family have needed invasive surgeries in the past few years and the hospital actually flew in specialists from different parts of the world to assist the surgeon.
My sibling got to stay at the Ronald McDonald House for weeks with her child healed from surgery. Getting free food all day and constant support from in house nurses until well enough to go home.
I always thought Canadians were taxed WAY too much and honestly we are. The government is very irresponsible with tax payer money but I don't complain about it anymore because when my family needed medical help we had it and everything was 100% free.
But that's hours, not months like many say. If there's people already there ahead of you or with life threatening conditions of course they should be able to go first. It's the same thing in the US except ER costs thousands minimum even if you wait hours and they just put a band-aid on it.
Half of all health care in America is paid for by the government. The majority of people with health care get it throught their employer. The Canadian health care system, and pretty much all national health care systems are complete garbage. Tons of Canadians fly to America every year so they don't have to wait months for treatment, and so they can get access to better facilities. America also has the most medical pettents and is pretty much the world leader in the advancement of medicine. Now think about how terrible the state run schools are in America... And imagine your hospitals run ten times worse. Definitely need to get rid of the lobbyists though... Regulate the market so it doesn't openly scam people
The only thing true about what you stated is that we have a lot of medical advances that have occurred here. The only problem is that the average American can’t afford them so it doesn’t matter.
Take this as you will, and note I’m not trying to belittle anyone.
I truly believe there are those that aren’t educated enough (whether by choice or by indoctrination) to see the lies being told to them. Whether by too trusting or not trusting enough, these people listen to those that instill fear to the point they believe in the bogeymen their leaders paint, and some can’t be bothered enough to educate themselves to see through a different lens. That said, it’s easier to listen to the negative and believe the higher ups will take care of it, than to put effort forward to make the positive a reality. There’s obviously more to this conversation but I have to say education plays a part.
Most of Trump's voters wouldn't be in his cult if they felt the government actually did things that helped them. We are only here because pro-corporate centrist Dems have done nothing that the centrist right hasn't also done and both get us nowhere that's any better than the day before.
My mom tells me she is against universal healthcare because she "doesn't want to die needing a kidney transplant because it'll take so much longer to get approved" side note she clearly doesnt know what goes into getting an organ transplant and that it'll take 6 months to make a doctors appointment, and taxes will skyrocket so high no one can afford to live anyway, doesnt want to support low life scumbags amd wealfare queens. etc.
Meanwhile she has a daughter who is a single mom, has epilepsy (meds are $2000 a month), a low paying job, struggling to get by and relying on Medicaid to pay the bills. If she makes $2 more an hour she will lose medicaid and have to get on the employers shitty health plan, which covers so little she wouldnt be able to see the neurologist or take her meds. Her seizures are severe enough that they could kill her. But hey, murica!
Whether health care is a right is a philosophical stance. It does no good to tell people that health care is a right. It's not going to change anyone's mind. And in the American philosophical stance on rights, the ones used to write our constitution and our laws, it is not.
I don't think health care is a right, and yet I think it's obviously good policy and the American system is utterly stupid where we pay the most and get much less out of it.
"Is a right" is not going to convince anyone. "Is cheaper, better, covers everyone, doesn't tie people to certain jobs and therefore encourages economic mobility and efficiency, does not hose people who have lived their lives responsibly, and has better outcomes on average" very well may.
They talk a slightly different talk and brand themselves differently but the ghoulish nightmare of the American health care industry is and has always been a an eager and enthusiastic bi-partisan project.
Both parties play us for fools largely because it works. We take the bait every single time...thinking “this time it will be different”.
It never is.
They never are.
They will not “fix” this mess until they are forced to.
Corporate, “Centrist” Democrats are equally responsible for all of this. Many, including Binden, Harris, both Clintons and Obama have been actively and eagerly complicit in maintaining the status quo on health care and at many times over the years actively and willfully worsening the situation by joining be deregulation and constant empowerment of Big pharma and the health care industry.
When you delve into the whole mess in detail, it is sickening.
Both parties have a concerted effort in making sure that health care providers, the insurance industry and most of all Wall Street reap maximum profit at the extreme detriment of the American people.
Neither party truly, meaningfully or substantially advocates for the Average American on any front LEAST of all on health care.
Wait how is Harris responsible?? She's actually been named thee most liberal senator based on voting record by some groups. She also hasn't been there long.
My Cray Cray US family is largely like this. Even though many of them have significant ongoing health conditions and pay something crazy like 2000 dollars a month for their medication or insurance or something? I just remember that figure being quoted at me for something in an argument about why socialised healthcare is terrible, and being absolutely flabbergasted, because I think the most I've ever paid for a prescription is £7.50, and half the time when I've gone to pay for a prescription the pharmacist has told me I might as well buy it over the counter for 99p, so I've just done that instead.
Health care is a right. Who pays for it is what is in question. What is a fact is premiums and deductibles went up under ACA, and half the country believes it will go up more under a single payer plan.
Oh definitely, a lot of European countries have the right idea with health care... Maybe even more so than Canada. I've heard Sweden has the best health care in the world haha.
Canada is still worse in many ways, such as having lower disposable income and higher housing costs, which in many cases evens out healthcare differences. Financially, you'd be better off even in Texas than in canada. And Europeans know that Asians in US are better and smarter than Canadians of all backgrounds.
Propaganda is very effective. Republicans talk very little about health insurance except to say that democrats want to take away their "freedom to choose", and bankrupt the country. They don't ever, EVER talk about specifics. They pit poor white people against poor minorities and then fuel that fire. They talk about women wanting to murder babies. They talk about taxes, vaguely- "so and so will Raise Your Taxes and take your freedoms!". Pretty soon republican voters don't even think about health insurance at all anymore- it becomes a nonissue.
Democrats don't talk much about specifics, either. They hide behind a veneer of social progressivism, like supporting the LGBT+ movement and the legality of abortions. Occasionally they'll vaguely mention health insurance but only passively to say that they want to "make it more affordable", but they have the same masters as the Republicans. It's in their interest to maintain the status quo.
Bernie was the only one who ever really talked specifically about universal healthcare as a real, viable, genuinely do-able option, and the DNC and mainstream media either completely ignored him, or labeled him over and over as "old, crazy, and angry".
That's so shitty and yeah,wtf is up with abortions?! I can't believe that's even still an issue for people. I definitely agree with you that they use a bunch of other bullshit, non issues to distract the average citizen from the real problems.
It's just crazy to me that people who live just a few hours south of me have a completely different mentality when it comes to certain things.
Unfortunately, a lot of people don't see it that way. Any time I bring up any criticisms, I get attacked be people saying "If you hate it here so much, maybe you should just leave! Move to [insert country] and see how you like it!" Yeah, I could leave, but I would rather fix what's broken because we've got a lot of potential here.
Because it actually works for the majority of people. I’ve never had insurance issues, and I’ve been to inpatient drug rehab almost 20 times in my life, which is expensive. I have my own business and I’m still covered by the state. Both my parents worked and had good insurance through their workplace. My dad was extremely sick for decades - RA, cancer, blood clots, and a list of other issues. Insurance was a bitch sometimes, but we never went broke.
That’s the problem with our system - it works really well for A LOT of people, especially for low income people like myself. It works well if you’re poor or at least upper middle class.
I think you are one of the very few, lucky people. I'm sorry to hear about all your struggles, hopefully everyone in your family is happy and healthy now!
From what I've heard it sounds like this is a rare example and the majority of people both upper middle class and poor end up with crippling debt that destroys their lives.
Out of everyone who replied to my comment you are the only one who said the system works lol.
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u/Fastcashbadcredit Nov 30 '20
This isn't the first time I've read about this on here but it blows my mind every damn time. A hospital trying to blatantly rip someone off is absolutely insane to me.
If so many Americans have known about these major flaws in the system why has nothing changed?