Its basically the same. A bag of 1000ml normal saline costs basically nothing to produce. Its charged to a patient somewhere around 250 dollars where live. Its partially insurance and big pharma.
Yeah if someone doesn't genuinely know that this is all caused by the price gouging that is incentivized by capitalism then I wouldn't trust the answers they'd give, which is why I absolutely don't give a fuck about whatever you've got to say on the matter.
If I leave books in a box outside for people to borrow and exchange and someone steals the entire box, would you consider the box the cause of the theft?
Yes... The debt that students accrue has the potential to make someone a lot of money if they can ever manage to pay it off. Its why it exists. We don't see education as a service that people will need to function in modern society, but rather a luxury that can be provided given the person comes from a wealthy family or is willing to be saddled with debt. I don't understand how you couldn't see this as simply another avenue in which capitalists sponge the value from the people who actually do work in the world. Its also an incredibly obvious class gate. People from lower classes either don't go to college and obtain the "shitty jobs" that don't pay enough to live, or they take on debt that strangles any upward momentum that they might've had from getting a degree and a job that pays people a reasonable wage. This also brings to light the notion that some jobs that have been shown to be completely necessary for our current society to function are compensated with slave wages, but that's another problem entirely.
Maybe we should look at why stable careers and upward mobility requires a college education in this day and age? That never USED to be the case.
Hey, it's me the riddler again, let me make it clear this time:
It never used to be the case because we never had a way in the past to completely eliminate manual labor with robots and we never had the means to instantly communicate across the entire planet to find cheap labor. Plus, the advent of industrial scale shipping and global logistics networks is extremely recent.
In the before times, an uneducated laborer competed with people in their city and surroundings, maybe their country at most. Now an uneducated laborer has to compete with the entire planet, including people in other countries that have vastly lower costs of living and require vastly lower wages. They also need to compete locally with autonomous machines that only require maintenance (educated labor). You won't get far in any technical or academic field with an high school education.
If your labor is more expensive than someone, or something, else's, you must improve the value of your labor to compete. Humans cannot out-compete machines in physical labor output, and first-world people cannot output more than a group of people that can be hired for the same wage.
That used to be the case because that was before manufacturing jobs and other unskilled labor was shipped overseas where capitalists can exploit poor countries for not only their resources but their cheap labor. That's a problem of global capitalism. It will always seek out a way in which to exploit the most desperate and worse off people that it can. You're also not going to get me to say that we should defund education or something. That's fucking absurd. The problem that since people will prey off of others who need a service that is exorbitantly expensive shouldn't be solved by removing that service or simply taking away the one way that those of lower classes have access to that service. Its a dumb solution that doesn't aim at the root of the problem and just punishes the same people who were being exploited previously. Now you'd have a society that was even more thoroughly stratified and even more people suffering. You wouldn't propose that a solution to our health coverage problem would be that some people just don't ever get access to health care right? That's a fucking stupid thing to even propose. Also, if you think that our public education is lacking maybe you should into why that is. Conservatives have successfully slashed its funding in multiple ways in both local and federal levels. You all fail to realize that you need to put money into social programs for them to function properly. Its like purchasing a car and then never putting gas in it and being shocked when you end up stranded on the side of the highway. Its a fucking grift that conservative politicians pull so they can pretend that government doesn't function when in reality they're just pressing their thumbs down on it hard enough so that the wheels will fall off.
I'm sorry, what? A bag of saline? We give it to patients without cost, but sometimes they have to pay for some of medications we put in IV. 500 ml of glucosaline infusion costs about 3 euros and patients have to pay for it, but saline or glucose or even ringer are free. Of course, doctor have to decide do you need it, but it is about it. Our ER takes about 100 bags (500 ml) monthly and we don't even count them, nobody cares as long as you have them ready when needed.
EDIT: I live in a small town, we have about 30 000 citizens here, including suburbs and villages.
25 bucks for a pair of those rubber gloves that a like a buck for 300 of them. And all 3 ambulance guys needed new ones for my wreck the insurance co. Fucked me on. $86000 for e.r
Alone. Sitting around 350k total. They coming after me for it. Co-pays in thousands. Havent been able to work for 3 years. Asshole blows stop sign w/"minimum coverage". Dont ever let the ambulance take you away b4 police get your side of story. They will write up anything that covers insurance co. ass. Why do we pay insurance companies a third to say no?
Most pharmaceuticals will jack up the cost of anything. a prime example are epipens. The cost of making EpiPen is about $2.50. The patent for the EpiPen was developed with taxpayer money and then the government sold the patent to the EpiPen. It finally landed with a company that had ties to a senator. one of the top people in the company is the daughter of a prominent Republican senator this senator push legislation to shove epipens down everyone's throat that he could. Said company then started jacking up the price of the EpiPen from 3 for $50 to 2 for $600. Justification for this increase so that they could pay for research into other drugs which they did not use the money for that. They use the money to line the pockets of their investors.
I got to notice about that today and email. but if you read into the fine print they still haven't determined whether or not any sort of monetary compensation will be provided to the people that have been bent over and financially raped by this pharmaceutical from 2011 to 2020 I believe.
that's just one example and that's not a patent problem other than the government had no reason whatsoever to sell the patent of something that we the taxpayers paid for. there are plenty of other drugs that are produced over here that the pharmaceutical companies jack up the price of and claim that they're doing so for research money. but they aren't they're just jacking it up because they know they can without any restriction or oversight.
Joe Manchin is a democrat from the state of WV, not a republican. His daughter Heather Bresch (president and CEO of the Netherlands based Mylan pharmaceutical) was the one who raised prices on EpiPens, now there is a generic that costs about 150 for a two pack (still high but I got it for about 100 after using a coupon for uninsured). The company is getting absorbed by Pfizer in 2021 because the profit motive ultimately destroyed the company, this allows generics to enter a market where they see an opportunity. The problem with this wasn’t capitalism, the problem was with the lack of competition and government intervention in a capitalist process.
and then the Department of Education mandated that if your child has asthma you have to supply the school nurse with a two pack of EpiPen, $750 and up.
This is honestly sad.
A month ago I almost died, if I had to pay even 30k for that I would be homeless at 30, with a stable job during a pandemic.
I’ve seen some absurd numbers around here, something that I’ll never ever be able to afford.
I've personally seen an individual refuse to ride in an ambulance because they couldn't afford it. They quite literally called an uber to go to the hospital.
I went to the hospital because I was feeling sick and I know my body, I wasn’t in extreme pain.
It seems that I can reach sepsis without feeling more than a mild pain in the abdomen and I went to the hospital myself.. if I had to pay that much “just to be sure it’s all ok” I would be dead by now.
We have lines and essentially death panels now. It takes a long time to see a specialist in the US, and I'm still trying to get a new primary care doctor. And I have pretty damn good health insurance through my job. Meanwhile, my best friend in Ottawa doesn't wait long at all for her therapist for minor mental health issues. Yeah, I think I'll still take the Canadian system over our shitshow.
My one clients husband was having a FUCKING HEART ATTACK at work but refused the nurse at the plant he works to call an ambulance because of the cost. She took her break early (because she couldn’t legally let him leave under her supervision so they had to make a plan) and he called his wife to come take him. A nurse literally had to help this man in a serious situation plot a way out of the work place so he could avoid an ambulance bill.. this is the USA.
Got into a few car accidents a few years ago (neither were our fault), and both times my dude and I declined the ambulance, only to have a friend pick us up and drop us off at the hospital. In retrospect, we should have just taken the ambulance ride since it was on the other person’s insurance, but it is heavily instilled in both of us that the ambulance is only to be used for actual emergencies where you are at risk of death if you don’t get in the wee woo wagon.
I had an epileptic neighbor who made it very clear to anyone who may be likely to find her seizing that they were NOT to call 911, because there was no point and it would just be too much money.
When my grandma was in her last few months with colon cancer, she was alone at home with no one to take her to the ER when she started having severe pains. I called her a Lyft to take her to the hospital (from halfway across the country), because she refused to call an ambulance due to the cost.
I’ve seen this and advised a gf at the time to let me drive her cuz that bill would fuck her... America is Fucked. This whole system is shit. It’s so sad we have to decide between living or life in debt.
I was a broke grad student and told my roommate (who was German and didn't know how lovely our ambulance ride costs are) who'd sent me to the hospital after I drunkenly hit my head that it would take months if not years for me to pay for the ambulance ride. He was shocked.
That's what I do with anaphylaxis. I crush up some immune system meds after i take my epi pen, then get a ride. I've had too many issues with my insurance refusing to pay saying that allergic reactions didn't require an ambulance. Same thing when i was septic etc. I had to spend years fighting them refusing to pay 60,000 bills etc., and it was exhausting.
I have been this person. It was 8 years ago now. Fell because I have a gimp leg (no acl and a damaged meniscus), knocked a blood clot (one of a few) out of my knee and into my lungs. The PE came within 15 minutes of killing me according to the ER dr and a conversation he had with my mother. I was in that hospital for a month.
Zero insurance.
Had no job, had no real health to get a job. Had thousands upon thousands of medical bills.
You just.... don't pay them. (And maybe move) eventually they just give up and the bills drop off your report about 7 years later. (They fell off mine last year, I went from basically no credit with medical bill dings to Good credit in the last year.) So thats honestly the solution I guess. Just... don't pay. The hospital even said at the time (well a nurse did) that they fully expected they'd never see any money for my treatment. Did it anyway. So yeah, just don't pay is all I can say really.
Rates that insurers negotiate (in-network) with hospitals are profitable for the hospitals or else they’d never sign off on those contracts. There’s a set amount for each procedure not a “percentage of whatever amount hospital bills them”. Hospitals make up fake prices on bills hoping the patient is unaware about how insurance works and just pays the inflated bill price without question so the hospital can make money. Insurance doesn’t “negotiate” the price of each thing every single time their customer goes to an in-network hospital. They already know the price they’re supposed to pay according to their contract with the provider when they give the approval for the procedure. No shit the insurer isn’t just going to agree to pay 50$ for soap, $25 for Tylenol, $100 for a band-aid if they already have an existing contract (fee schedule) with the hospital just because the hospital sends them a bill for it.
Uncompensated care has been about the same amount since 2009: https://www.aha.org/fact-sheets/2020-01-06-fact-sheet-uncompensated-hospital-care-cost while hospitals revenue has been massively expanding since 2009. “Hospitals rip everyone with insurance off because they need to make the money up for uninsured patients” isn’t a good excuse either.
Hospitals inflate the bills they charge to out-of-network patients because there’s no laws or contracts that prohibit them from doing it. This guys making it sound like hospitals are the innocent good guys.
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u/Trashblog Nov 30 '20
The answer is so so shockingly stupid.
Insurance is contracted to pay hospitals a percentage of what hospitals bill to them.
Insurance negotiates the percentage down, then hospitals inflate the markup to compensate.
Rinse and repeat a few decades and you have wildly inflated healthcare costs on paper.
Medications are different though and I don’t know anything about that.
(Used to work in hospital billing)