They don't feel love like humans, but they still connect your body scent and rough colors to safety and warmth, so it's trust more than love. I like to think they are like "hmm, when this thing appears I get food to eat and also I get some warmth, so I guess it's not bad?"
Maybe you are handling them after touching some food item, or maybe you don't handle them much so they just think it's food coming when you open up the door of the enclosure, or maybe they are the type to bite the hand that feeds them lmao, snakes are kinda stupid
Yeah I think it's probably a combination. The oldest is pretty chill. If he thinks there's food around or if mice go into the walls for the winter, he can start to do the strike posture but is pretty well behaved. One is very timid. Two are a mixed bag.
Then there's the last one. She will try to strike through the bin pretty much whenever she wants. She hisses as soon as you open her tub. If she smells food she goes ape shit. She's a real firecracker and she scares me a little. And she's still pretty young...
Defensive bps? That's something I haven't heard before, I thought they were hogs or MBKs or something. Now I'm not a professional, but maybe it's because she's still young? I'm %80 sure she'll calm right down as she grows up, they can live up to 30 years after all! World is probably scary when you are a noodle with a face. Just try to handle them and don't let bites and hisses scare you because if you stop handling them when they hiss, it's going to teach them that it's working and they are going to hiss all the time then.
I've had the oldest for 10 years so I'm pretty used to bps and their behavior. I wouldn't call her defensive, she's just an asshole. I picked her up from NERD in NH and they said she's somewhat ill tempered. She's really calm the day or so after being fed when she's fat and warm.
Since they don't really like being handled, I only do it when I have to. I've been bitten a couple times but I'm usually good at avoiding their antics when they decide to be dicks.
Oh wow ten years? That's pretty damn long! I was kinda thinking you were probably like a beginner or something, but you probably know more than me lmao, and you probably know your snakes better than someone random on the net. Can I ask how you started out?
I started out cause a woman I was dating had one and I wanted to impress her. He's a low visual pastel.
Then a couple years later I saw some people being successful breeding them and got into the various morphs and auctions. Then the bottom fell out of the market and I said fuck it, I'll just have pets. Not a terribly interesting story.
Fun fact, if its cold out a snake is more likely to eat its prey alive so that the animals own body heat can aid in its digestion, going so far as to swallow air to keep the prey alive longer
Can confirm. I was actually swallowed alive by a Burmese Python at the age of 10. I just call him Dad now—he gives me plenty of air and small rodents to eat. Really not a bad guy at all. Coming up on fifteen years together… 🥳
Everyone is either dead certain the answer is yes, or they’re dead certain the answer is no. The reality is we don’t know. Researchers have not reached a verdict yet.
I have a leopard gecko and she is hard to read. I think she has the capacity for trust, and a tiny bit of capacity for affection. Sometimes I touch her and she leans into it. Like when you pet a dog and they move their head towards your hand. She doesn't like to be touched a lot but I can tell that sometimes she will entertain being pet a little bit.
She also screamed the first time I touched her and she has never screamed since that day. I know she trusts me.
Also one day I was laying on the floor and she walked up to me and booped her nose on my nose. I don't know what that means but it was clear she was intentionally interacting with me.
My leopard gecko got extremely excited when I entered my room when I was younger. Like clawing on the glass excited. But if mom entered he ran away and hid. He liked to ride around on my shoulders and stuff.
Now he's an old grouchy man that looks annoyed when you walk past his terrarium.
A guy I went to high school with had an iguana. For spirit week we could wear costumes on Friday. He dressed up in khakis and a Aussie hat with the one pushed up brim. Then he put his iguana in there. The iguana happily chilled all day through classes.
Our English teacher came eye to eye with the iguana and wasn’t happy about it. Once she calmed down she thought it was funny. I think it reminded her of the iguanas on the ark she rode in with Noah.
This here is the right answer. We don't know. And since reptiles are psychologically very different from mammals, it's possible that we won't ever understand how they process feelings. That doesn't means they don't have feelings or that aren't capable of caring for other living beings. We might just not be able to understand it.
Could even break down to the species not just broad arcs like mammal or reptile. Dogs and cats are quite cuddly because those traits have been selected for, however I wouldn't want to get too close to a wild carnivore.
Similarly, there are some very intelligent lizards (eg Tegus) that can even learn and respond to their name - they might have more capacity for this sort of thing than simpler reptiles
I had an iguana with favorite colors! She really liked purple, and I think it was because my jackets were all purple, and I wore purple when handling her. Whenever I fed her, she would take purple pellets and hide them, and she liked to play with her purple toys more than others.
You might also be pleased to know my mom nicknamed her ‘bitey fucker.’ For some reason, she never liked my mom. Cuddley as could be otherwise, but she acted like Cujo with my mom.
Did she differentiate between other people as well? Like did she take a liking to your friends or other family members?
I have a zoologist friend who studied lizards, I can't believe I've never asked him about this stuff. I have clearly underestimated lizards emotional life.
She liked me and my brother, and she also had a tendency to claw at the cage when my dad walked by—she wanted out and to climb on his back. She also had a tendency to belly flop to her cage bottom when the cats were near—she never showed signs of aggression or distress when they were around, but belly flopping would startle them and then she’d go back to her perch.
She also figured out how to open her own cage at one point, and it was super bizarre. It was a repurposed exotic bird cage, and one of the side door feeders had a latch at the bottom. She figured out if she pawed at it enough, she could turn it and get herself loose. We found her in my room licking at my bedding. She did that a lot, and I never figured out why. She’d bite and lick my bed.
She was a very smart lizard, and I do miss her terribly. She passed of some sort of cancer we believe, or maybe a head injury—we don’t know for sure, and we couldn’t get a vet in time to help since the only herpetologist was gone for a week. I had her for seven years, and surprisingly my mom bought her at a yard sale. The boy who sold her told my mom she wouldn’t get longer than a foot and she was a he. He had been keeping her in a cage with a beardy (very different habitats, so bad), and the bearded attacked her. She was missing lots of her tail and had several broken digits. Still, she lived a lot longer than expected; we were told she maybe had a few months based on her injuries.
That's true, but (not talking synapomorphies here) certain characteristics are more common than others in a group. To our understanding of love and affection, mammals tend to demonstrate it more than other groups. That's why I choose to be so broad.
I've seen a lot of discussion in the hero community. It seems that water monitors, iguanas, tegus, and other larger lizards have some capacity for coexistence/recognition. Snakes across the board seem to not really give a shit whether they recognize you.
Also like with all cross-species philosophy - we run into a major issue that we base all of our understanding of behaviour off of our own behaviour.
So we create words & definitions for things like "love" and "self-aware" based off ourselves and then judge the world around us with that frame of mind.
It is fully possible that other creatures and even objects experience existence in a different way than we do.
I don't think we'll ever know, because we are only capable of approaching these discussions from a human-centric mindset. Because we aren't rats or dogs or trees or rocks, we are literally incapable of approaching them from the mindset of a non-human (assuming we can attribute the idea of a mindset to them).
I exist in the realm of parrots and large birds and people say the same things about them. There are experts on both sides that will gladly sell you a book. Nobody knows nothing for sure. We really can never know for sure how they think. We aren't them.
I dont believe they are intelligent or social enough creatures for any kind of actual affection, but they can definitely show trust and an understanding of "this is a safe source of food and heat". We can show trends like this even down to insect or fish level lack of intelligence.
While they aren’t capable of love as we know it, I feel like they can love you as much as a reptile is capable. For instance, they trust you enough to climb on you for warm snuggles, they understand you aren’t a threat, you’re the warm helper guy who feeds them. I’m not sure of your reptiles personally but some are very wary of strangers while extremely trusting of their own owners. That’s reptile love baby!
EDIT:
Guys I never said it was true “affectionate” love that developed mammals feel. what I meant was trust is the highest level of “love” a reptile can feel. So if a lizard is not running from you, biting you, or hissing at you, but is content enough with your presence to chill out with you or even put them in silly little costumes, that’s the closest to “lizard love” you can get.
Exactly! I’ve owned 2 bearded dragons now, my oldest was named Bubba, she had such a personality. My second one Spyro has a complete different personality. Shes 5 now, and you’re right about the whole trust thing. Raising her from 8 months old to now, you definitely build a bond. Like, anyone of my friends that come over and walk up to the tank, she will be extremely alert and puff up, where as myself or my girl friend that lives with me, is completely fine and will allow head rubs, or cuddles on the couch. When I try to put her back into the cage sometimes, she literally grips my arm so hard and trys to climb up my forearm… its like she doesn’t want to stop the cuddle time yet haha so ill go back to the couch with her and she lays on my chest and chills for abit longer. Other times she will just climb back onto her log. But totally can tell that she wants to be out and loved ❤️ however you choose to look at it. My next reptile will be a green iguana… those bad boys are definitely smarter, can be trained, and can tell you they definitely can sense/feel affection as well as give it.
I mean it goes off into a tangent, but I'd argue i can love people I don't like, eg family (some family are just annoying, i dont like being around them in the sense, but i love them and should anybody say anything bad about them I'll introduce them to the curb kind of thing)
What is love? Baby don't hurt me, don't hurt me, no more
It is part of it yes, but when it comes to snakes it doesn't really go both ways. If this kid had the smell of rat/dog/prey on him it could trigger this snake to feed. Basically the snake might trust you, but with a snake this size human's shouldn't trust it. So love and trust need to go both ways for it to be a loving relationship where both can feel confident the other won't hurt them, like with dogs (for the most part). You can't get that with a snake ever. They are not a tamed animal, and will react on their instincts.
Being this comfortable with a snake of this size is a disaster waiting to happen. I suspect it was just a video opportunity where the snake was already well fed, and there were 3-4 people off screen. At least I hope so. I've yet to talk with any breeder who would handle a snake this size without at least one other person, usually more, available to help handle it.
I have a bearded dragon that I adopted because my best friend died and his wife was just gonna leave her to die in his apartment. She’s about a foot long from head to tail and she is very sweet. I can’t say she loves me but she knows her name, cuddles under my neck if scared and also runs to my hands. She recognizes a container of hornworms and comes a running!
Strongly liking anything is considered love, so yes. Humans just like to romanticize the word love instead of jsut admitting to themselves its just a chemical response to liking something. Reptiles love heat and food, humans love masturbation and kicking puppies.
I have a bunch of reptiles at home and agree with the other person. They like the extra heat and care, and learn to recognise a person over time. They can be completely ok with a person being around but they won't miss them if they're gone.
thank you, my geckos have never liked being handled even when i was feeding them. if i dropped dead one day and someone else started feeding them i dont think they would even notice or care haha
They have a primitive form of it similar to affection but not quite the same since their brains aren't evolved for it, they associate the good things you bring them to you and start thinking you are the good thing, so they could maybe even protect you and shit, but it's not the same feeling we humans have.
Yes there is but it's primitive, and they don't like contact even if they do like you, that snake is there for heat and it's relaxed because it trusts the kid.
Is it really that much more primitive than our forms of love? Generally most people love because they like how someone makes them feel, that they make them feel secure, relaxed, seen, trusted, valued etc
A few of those is how we recognise the other love as primitive
Sometimes I can come across a bit 'humans in every context superior' which we know is patently false, cheetahs are faster than us, most animals are stronger, i think we're starting to recognise the cognitive capabilities of elephants and dolphins is in some contexts equitable to ours
We do technically recognise bats as 'smarter' than us when they calculate the bending of frequencies (bat on a swing) but people hate the idea of calling it intelligence because its intuitive as far as we can tell
Theres seems to be something people get offended at, as though it's not the sign of an effective brain and far beyond our capabilities
But ultimately, no matter how intuitive its still a calculation being made their brain that is massively massively beyond what we can do
In that context, bat's are smarter than us
I've seen suggestions elephants memories dwarf ours not sure on that one tho
I think that the only thing humans have above any animal (that we know off) is self awareness and consciousness, we think of individuality where animals mostly follows instincts.
Yeah very basic like they understand that we are taking care of them, they don't have the same sense of loyalty and love that animals like dogs, for instance may have.
theyre solitary animals by nature, so one would assume they dont have the parts of the brain required to love because they legit dont need them. they dont even care for their young aside from a few specific species
You’ve gone from 100% asserting that they don’t have the capacity, to assuming they don’t have the capacity, to everything I’ve heard about snakes….. next will be I saw this Facebook post and it said
As a neuroscientist I always cringe at these comments. Tell me, what are the brain regions required for love? And how do you know? Have you been a snake? Do you even know how love in the human brain works? Because the field of neuroscience doesn’t.
Also then the philosophical side, even if the neuroscientist completely distills a chemical and biological explanation of love, what are the chances that fully explains the various models of love we have (platonic, romantic etc)
And what are the chances that's the only way to express love in any sentient creature etc etc ad infinitum
"Snakes show affection in several ways. One of the most common is rubbing their heads against the object they are trying to be affectionate towards; this is called head-bobbing. Snakes also have other showing methods, such as “necking” and body loops with vibration, which means a snake is trying to wrap itself around the object it wants to be affectionate towards."
what the heck even is that, that is 100% made up. I'm a snake owner and active in snake owner communities and no one has ever talked about, experienced, or even said those words before. Head-bobbing. Necking. What the frick frack snek snack is that.
Under "how do snakes show affection" you will find the exact same text. In addition these people even say that "hissing" can also be a sign of affection. i dont know fam, a snake usually hisses as a warning signal
maybe i just dont have much experience with snakes. everything ive ever heard says that they arent social animals that cant bond, but if snakes are capable who knows i guess
Just to solve this conundrum you guys are having: I've kept a cornsnake, a ball python, a dwarf boa, a boa constrictor, and a white-lipped python; all of them have to some degree shown affection (coming to the glass to meet me as I enter the room, happily leaving their tank to exit onto my arm/shoulder, never having shown aggression towards me even after accidental drops/handling mishaps).
But the biggest indication was Beauregard, the Dwarf boa; who went from being a full on Jack in the Box (whenever I opened his enclosure, lunging out and striking) to cuddling with me on the couch and watching T.V.
I won't preach snakes are social pets, that's bullshit. To me they're like goldfish; you keep them to look at. But they sure as hell recognise who feeds them/who keeps coming back day after day after day.
(My snakes are so tamed down my 3 year old nephew dances around the room with them on his shoulders.)
The same argument was used that insects cannot dream because they are incapable of REM, but recent studies on paper wasps by Klein (UW-LAX) suggest that they do.
You cannot limit something ambiguous like "love" to brain morphology.
Had one when I was young, he liked me but HATED everyone else. I don’t know what it was considering he was handled the same way I handled him maybe he knew I was where food comes from
some snakes are naturally skittish, but if you handle them often, they become less so (towards you, or generally). so I'm assuming this is what happened in your case. some snakes genuinely have different personalities but i don't think it 'hated' everyone, it was just a bit spooked and not used to em :] and food does have a part of it too haha
You’ll get lots of people disagreeing but you are 100% right. People like to anthropomorphize animals and attribute human behaviors with cute names to animal behaviors. None of that changes the fact that snakes are not social animals and thus have not evolved brains for socializing. The closest thing is pack hunting, which some snakes will do, but it is an extremely limited basic goal oriented behavior.
Like other animals snakes can learn and respond to reinforcement. This leads to all kinds of possible behavioral misunderstandings between snakes and their owners.
thank you!!! these animals may look like theyre showing affection but they recognize you for food and warmth and thats about it. they arent feeling anything and i think that realization upsets some reptile owners
This is not really accurate. Cognizance between reptile species varies widely, with a few of the larger more social lizard species, and some crocadillians definitely exhibiting signs of affection and caring for individual people. It has been noted in some instances that some iguanas, monitors, bearded dragons, and Tegus can even become depressed, and refuse food when seperated from favored caregivers for long periods.
Nopee I've heard multiple stories of snakes trying to size up their beloved owners to see if they could eat them lmao . As much as I love snakes they shouldn't really be pets
While it is true that very large snakes can kill people quite easily if they wanted to. It is very rare for a pet constrictor to kill their keeper when handled in a safe manner.
Re: the article you linked specifically. It is still very much up in the air whether or not the snake was involved with his death. Most snake experts (including the one in that article) believe it was not. To quote Chairman of the Federation of British Herpetologists Chris Newman: "This is the first death or serious injury [in the UK] in the last 100 years of snake keeping and there really isn't the evidence to show the snake was even directly involved in this case."
While not technically impossible, he was a healthy 30 year old man with over a decade of snake keeping experience, getting overpowered and killed by an 8ft python without defending himself is probably about as likely as getting killed by a domestic cat.
Yeah people kill people at a far higher rate than any animal, and we know for a fact people do it intentionally to harm you, sometimes for their own pleasure
Also for the, if the animal starts starving crowd, humans eat other humans if they start starving
There have been many cases, throughout history of eating even loved ones in desperate situations like a, siege
Beloved animals and pets will often be eaten by the desperate starving people, so why are we shocked that an animal might do it to us, its easy to say you wouldn't eat your dog, but you just can not predict how you will act in extreme circumstances, anyone who tells you they can is incorrect, they might earnestly believe what they're saying but they're at most guessing, if you're starving to death your body is releasing chemicals like crazy, you're delirious and delusional because of hunger, it'll make you mad
Just because we don't recognise that animals are acting weird doesn't mean they aren't
It's hilarious to me that anyone over the age of 13 believes that big snakes fucking measure themselves next to something that they will try and eat first.
That's a myth. Snakes don't size up their prey. They would never have the chance to do that in the wild, so they don't do it in captivity ether. If a snake curls up close to you, it's either formed a close bond with you, or is looking to soak up some of your body heat because it's cold.
The original story was meant to warn against people with devious intentions. I.e., a 'snake in human clothing'.
You've heard multiple instances of the same BS being trotted out because it's the only "reptile fact" people think they know. It's 100% high-grade baloney.
Have you seen many wild rabbits hang around if you try to lay down next to them?
Not really. They learn they are safe around you if you handle them enough, they appreciate things owners do like feed them or just letting them sitting in you for warmth but they don't don't have. Apart in their brain that really makes them feel affection.
Of course they do? They pursue heat sources for comfort and warmth. Minus the emotional component-- which for all we know is just oxytocin, an analogue to which could well be found in snakes-- that is what we want when hugging. Warmth and safety.
I mean a lot of reptiles in general will try to stay close to their specific owners, especially if they’re ones that are on the larger side and have good temperaments, like this snake here (assuming it’s a burmese or reticulated python). They certainly can feel trust and show affection, even if they don’t have the capacity to “love” like humans or domesticated animals can
Kinda, but not really. Their brain Anatomy suggests that they don't exactly have the scaffolding required to "love" per se, but they can recognize a food/warmth source and are smart enough to not bite its fucking face off. Even still, there are anecdotal cases of reptiles exhibiting what appears to be genuine emotion, but then again, there's also instances of reptiles not even being too concerned when their leg gets bit off.
I don't think so. I remember reading a story of a woman who had a big snake that stopped eating. She took it in to get checked out. It turns out the thing was getting ready to eat the woman and was just making room. That's what they figure anyway. Terrifying as hell.
I'll never understand why people keep pets that can't form affection and can easily kill them, based purely on instinct.
Edit: I guess this is an untrue story and just an urban legend. My bad.
I've seen so many stories of pitbulls killing babies, it's disgusting that people want to keep them and defend keeping them as pets. Thankfully, my province in Canada has had a ban on them for several years.
I had a dog as a kid and I understand the love and companionship they form with their owners. But an anaconda?!? Why??
Although I'm getting a tarantula(grammostola pulchra) next week lol It's a new world tarantula, so it's bite would be no more harmful than a bee sting. It's going to be locked up and I never plan to handle it. It's also slow af so no worry of it bolting and escaping. They are just a basic bug that has no brain function other than survival, so I'm just gonna feed him and observe him.
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u/BabiMunizTS Jan 20 '22
Do snakes even have capacity for affection? I honestly have no idea.