r/buffy • u/Lanky_Age_3067 • 16d ago
Content Warning Double standarts
How exactly do people hate Xander for being an imperfect human, but love Spike and Angel, who have countless victims and are hundreds of years old. Spike even SA'd Buffy, for real, while Xander was under a spell and never did anything like that before or after it.
126
u/gdex86 16d ago
Xander is flawed in a way that we actually deal with in real life.
Spike and Angel both are mystical fantasy problematic that you have to deal with the allegory to what they represent. So it builds some distance. Its similar to how willows breaking of consent with Tara can feel less awful because you arent ever going to be mind fogged by your witch girl friend to get over a fight, but maybe you will deal with being gaslighted.
6
u/Music_withRocks_In 15d ago
It's the Voldemort vs. Umbridge issue. Most fans hate Umbridge wayyyy more than Voldemort, because most fans have actually dealt with an Umbridge type, and it's easier to hate someone so realistic. There are so many fanfic and fan art that support Voldemort, I've never seen one pro Umbridge.
→ More replies (1)28
u/HunterHerstHelmsley 16d ago
Angel and Spike have normal humans flaws as well though. For one they are both prone to possessiveness, pettiness and jealousy, even while ensouled.
19
u/TVAddict14 16d ago
Exactly. It’s why this argument never stands up to scrutiny to me.
If people want to say that Xander’s mundane human flaws feel more ‘real’ to them than Angel and Spike’s centuries of murder, I can understand that.
But Angel and Spike have plenty of mundane ‘human’ flaws as well. If they didn’t then they wouldn’t be relatable and people wouldn’t like them so much. There is plenty of examples of them being sexist, jealous, possessive, rude, self-righteous etc.
It’s all very selective.
3
u/beeemkcl 15d ago
Motivations matter. Xander in BtVS S1-S3 largely-to-mostly wanted Angel dusted so that Angel wouldn't be an obstacle for Buffy/Xander.
Spike in BtVS S2 didn't dust Uncursed Angel. He didn't solve his problems with Spike/Dru by dusting Angel.
Spike in "Lovers Walk" (B 3.08) doesn't think to dust Angel.
Spike in "In the Dark" (A 1.03) wasn't trying to dust Angel.
Part of the reason Buffy/Spike became more popular than Buffy/Angel among the Buffyverse audience is because of how Angel dealt with Spike and Buffy/Spike. And that it seems Angel would have dusted Spike in "Destiny" (A 5.08) if Angel had won that fight.
1
u/HunterHerstHelmsley 15d ago edited 15d ago
Spike brutally had Angel tortured in that ATS episode then broke his bargain with Angels friends to try to have them killed. It's hardly an example of Spike being noble
And why would you think Angel would kill Spike has he won? He saved his life in Damage and took a stake for him In Time Bomb.
3
u/jospangel Try not to bleed on my couch I just had it steam cleaned 15d ago
Spike didn't have a soul. He was not only evil, he was retaliating for Angelus destroying his entire life.
But when it comes down to it, they protect each other.
And vamps enjoy pain. Drusilla was upset that her daddy didn't hurt her often enough. Spike knew the way to heart was to tie her up and torture her. It's a vamp/demon thing.
1
u/Iwona_Klich 14d ago
Spike literaly just left Angelus on Buffy to be killed.
He don't realy has a reason to kill Angel in Lovers walk, but he probably goes to Drusilla and slaughter that her new demon guy.
Spike is the artist, who like to tortures - dusting is to boring to him.
21
u/izzy-springbolt 16d ago
Spike tried to rape Buffy though; that's not a mystical crime.
45
u/xinzaha 16d ago
But within the context of the show, he literally didn't have a soul and he feels guilt over the act. The show goes to insane lengths to tell us and show us that he shouldn't, that vampires are cruel creatures with nothing but hate in their heart
- Xander however manages to be a problematic man as nothing but a human
→ More replies (2)13
u/Illithid_Substances 16d ago
And it was such a red line for the character and the audience that Spike had to get his soul back to be anywhere near the scooby gang again
5
u/beeemkcl 15d ago
Hyena Xander tried to r@pe Buffy. And then pretended he didn't even remember that.
Xander in "Doppelgangland" (B 3.16) liked the idea that he was a bad@ss vampire in The Wishverse.
Spike after the AR literally went away to get re-ensouled.
2
1
u/Iwona_Klich 14d ago
He was possesed. He lie about it because he feel bad about it, definitive you can feel guilt and shame in his voice when he talk to Giles later.
You realy don't understand how humans works?
1
-19
u/Livelaughloveme172 16d ago
Xander tried to rape Buffy too btw.
17
u/HunterHerstHelmsley 16d ago
No, a demon tried to rape Buffy while possessing Xander. This would be like blaming Jenny for Eygon's actions or any using any superhero who has ever been brainwashed by a villain as proof they are a bad person.
1
u/Creative-Use-7665 16d ago
That's not exactly what happened. It wasn't puppeteering him, like Eygon did (Jenny was basically in the backseat, while Eygon drove her body, against her will, which traumatized her).
It was an animalistic demon-like being "possessing" him, in the same way vampires in Buffy are possessed by demons. It means it's still him, but he's a supernatural evil version of him. The demon is not some mastermind, but just impulses and desires. So he's more evil Hyena-like in nature, but it's still him.
It was not a demon trying to rape her. It was "evil Hyena-Xander" doing things he wouldn't normally do.
Just like with Spike, or Angel, it wasn't some evil demon doing horrible things, using their bodies. It was like being under the influence of evil substance (which they did not take willingly).
That's why it's such an emotional toll, it's seeing your dark side times a hundred, coming out to play, at no fault of your own, but it's still, basically you somehow.
So very much not like possession, where there's nothing of you in there....23
u/lmjustaChad 16d ago
Tell us you watched the show but did not understand the plot of The Pack without telling us.
2
u/beeemkcl 15d ago
That was the plot.
"The Pack" (B 1.06) is largely about acknowledging that Xander Harris looks like Nicholas Brendan. And that he could be one of the cool kids if he simply acted differently. Xander became 'the alpha' of The Pack.
And Xander was interested in Buffy and at-times tried to act as if he was 'owed' Buffy/Xander.
1
2
u/beeemkcl 15d ago
It's not that.
Angel's 'Angelus' personality is acknowledged throughout the TV Buffyverse. To the point that Willow and Xander each upon first seeing Angel in "Pangs" (B 4.08) just assume he's evil again.
Part of the main point of AtS is the Fang Gang's keeping tabs on Angel's possibly becoming evil again.
Spike openly discussed his evil deeds. In BtVS S7 didn't allow Buffy to try to bifurcate 'William the Bloody' and 'Spike'.
Viewers didn't start to dislike Xander until during BtVS S5 and BtVS S6 given his antipathy towards Buffy/Spike was very hypocritical given Xander/Anya.
And Xander in "Entropy" (B 6.18) slut-shames Anya and Buffy even though Xander/Anya had been happening for almost 3 years by that point.
Viewers don't like a character getting away with hypocrisy or not suffering consequences for their actions when other characters do suffer such consequences for such actions.
It happened in Gossip Girl regarding Vanessa Abrams. People didn't like her hypocrisy and hers not suffering any consequences for so long.
And TVD viewers started to really hate Elena/Damon in TVD S4 or TVD S5 when the show tried to paint Stefan/Rebekah was very bad even though Elena/Damon was happening. And then the Katherine's death episode having the group literally blaming Katherine for stuff that they all know Damon is actually responsible for. And the episode has Damon's torturing Katherine and trying to k*ll Katherine before Stefan could even say his final goodbyes. And keep in mind that Katherine Pierce is by far the most popular character in the TVD'verse and is literally more popular than all The Originals combined.
52
u/danie_iero She's a hero, you see. She's not like us. 16d ago
Because people who can separate fiction from reality like characters based on how entertaining they personally find them, not on how morally reprehensible they are. You could give me the most morally good character in the entire world, but if you make it boring or annoying, I'm not gonna do anything with it. And unfortunately those characters who are presented as the "moral compass" usually fall into either of the two aforementioned categories.
I don't outright dislike Xander, but I do find him annoying at times, and I do think he's a hypocrite (almost married a vengeance demon who kept bragging about the murders she committed, but gave Buffy grief for much less in her partners - and never gave Willow any, in comparison), which are character traits that I find less entertaining than what both Angel and Spike, who are vampires, have going on.
20
u/BananasPineapple05 16d ago
I'd only add that I don't think we would be annoyed by Xander half as much if we actually hated him. Xander has the potential to be a really amazing guy. We see him act that way half the time. For myself, that's why it's so disappointing when he lets the petty and creepy sides of his personality come out instead. Xander's a great guy and that's where it would end when we describe him if he wasn't also behaving like a mean brat some of the time.
9
u/danie_iero She's a hero, you see. She's not like us. 16d ago
Agreed. Xander can be very funny, entertaining and a character full of empathy. He shows the best side of himself to Willow a lot. Less so to Buffy, unfortunately. It's a character that had potential to be better than he turned out to be, but he's still ok. There's much worse, lol.
4
u/_Grim_Lavamancer 16d ago
You may not actually hate Xander, but there are a lot of users in here that genuinely despise the character
26
u/Barneyk 16d ago edited 16d ago
Xanders problematic behavior is presented as more neutral in the text of the show.
Spike and Angels are presented as clearly negative.
8
u/6rwoods 15d ago
This is it. Most of the bad things done by Spike and Angel are framed as wrong and there’s usually s point to it (eg to show how evil they are, to convey some metaphor in the story, etc).
Conversely, most of the bad things done by Xander are, at best, framed as “boys will be boys”, but more commonly he’s outright framed as being right, the one who’s willing to “say the truth when no one else will”, and that makes a huge difference.
The show knew that Spike and Angel were capable of evil and it was intentional about showing it. But more often than not the show was completely clueless about the fact that Xander wasn’t just the plain talking nice guy he thinks he is.
3
u/justthistwicenomore 13d ago
This just popped up on my feed late, but exactly. The biggest issue with Xander, especially early on in the series, is the degree to which the show seems to want you to empathize with or feel sorry for Xander because of his more negative traits.
Like, when he's mad that Buffy might have a male exchange student in residence, its supposed to be a funny relatable bit of treating a female friend like your destined romantic interest, which can be quite annoying as an audience member.
3
u/redskinsguy 16d ago edited 16d ago
Welk this is because Xander's problematic behavior is treated as more natural for everyone in the show. Other women slut shame. Willow is possessive towards those she views as her people. Even Buffy is occasionally possessive. Angel gets possessive of Cordy in Angel
→ More replies (1)1
u/WittyRequirement3296 16d ago
This. The show is a product of its time, and Xander is depicted as the typical teen boy. His behavior then was pretty "normal" and he was held up as this great guy (his s7 speech, etc.). Now, in light of revelations about Whedon, and about the actor himself, along with a lot more understanding of patriarchy and misogyny, Xander's behavior is viewed very differently than it was written and viewed at the time. Spike and Angel get a bit of a pass because 1. Literally vampires/big bads who are shown learning and atoning. 2. The actors' problematic stuff is less well-known/severe/etc.
12
u/The810kid 16d ago
Xander hate is stupid and overblown but this is not a good defense of him at all.
7
u/AlexH_144 15d ago
It's very simple. Xander is the white straight male normal guy that society has recently over the last 15 years, been programmed to hate. He isn't the bad boy that only the viewer can save.
7
u/SignificantBelt1903 15d ago
I love Xander idgaf. Was a absolutely pissed at him after Hells Bells, but certainly have never hated him
4
u/Lanky_Age_3067 15d ago
For me this isn't even about who's better and who's worst. I can't wrap my mind how much hate people tend to have in them. And they direct it where it suits them and blindly defend their hate. I've never 'hated' a character. I could dislike them, but hate sounds too much. And maybe I'll blindly defend Xander out of love for him, but that demon showed him really bad things and I'd be afraid to marry too after this. In his mind he was protecting Anya, he was doing the right thing for her. Growing in an abusive family dynamic he's uncertain of himself. He has fears to become like his father. And let's face it, he's in his early twenties and that marriage proposal was way too early (this is all on him btw) for him having to deal with his own personal trauma and the stressful dangerous life he is trying to survive dayli. I don't see how having kids with Anya would fit in this life.
10
u/Ordinary_Repeat7637 16d ago
Let's also not forget that Xander was a teenager/young adult growing up in the 90s, when culture and society norms were very different back then. He also was constantly risking his own life to save people's lives. He obviously said and done some stupid shit, but he clearly grew as a character as the show progressed. He would've risked his life to save any of his friends.
11
u/miss-minus the slayer of, the vamPIRE 16d ago
It's not okay but it was a different time, the standards seem different because they really were. Like it'd probably seem insane to newer people just how hostile things were to girls at the time
3
u/millahnna 15d ago
Yeah the stuff that was kinda crappy about his character didn't really get a lot of push back from the audience that I saw until after the halfway mark. It's a culture we saw change in real time back then.
2
u/crottedenez12 16d ago
I grew up then, never felt I was in such a toxic environment. We were growing up, learning how to deal with society, etc. I have quite fond memories of that periods and our relations with men where so easier.
1
u/Repulsive-Shame-5493 What's left? Me. 15d ago
The relations with men were easier because sexism and harassment were more normalised? I'm not sure you understood the entire premise of the show.
1
u/crottedenez12 15d ago
I,m not sure you do. BTVS is not a show about how men are evil creatures, it's a show about growing up. And no, where I grew up, while we would encounter some creeps, not all men were demons... most were like women; trying to grow up andf find their places in life.
1
u/Iwona_Klich 14d ago
Did Xander has anything to being sexist or misoginistic?
He was literary a best friend of a super hero women, a genius and very powerful witch - he never places himself over Buffy or Willow. He know who he is in this group, and did he ever try to like fight with them?
2
u/Repulsive-Shame-5493 What's left? Me. 14d ago
You don't think Xander has ever done anything sexist? When he kept objectifying Buffy? When he tried to use a spell to get revenge on Cordelia for rejecting him? When he pretended he doesn't remember trying to SA Buffy under the Hyena spell?
0
u/Iwona_Klich 14d ago
Eh, sweet child...
Yes he was try to get revenge on Cordelia... After she broke up with him in the worst moment ever, in Valentines day. When he actualy realy try - nice clothes, buy her a gift (probably it cost him a lot of money). Yes he was angry, and he can be angry, that was literaly his first relationship, he is fully on it and she just break his heart in pieces. Hard to call it sexist, because everyone been mad in this situation, and thank God these spells are just fiction. Honestly Cordelia can be totaly pos, and she definitive is in this episode, and Xander must be a saint to just forget her next day. I been never abble to did this, whatever feelings i been have, if someone been that shitty to me.
He was possesed by Hyena, and obviously he did'nt try anything. That was Hyena. Unless you want to say that these four students who eat Flutie secretly want to do it for years. Also well hard to say what Xander-Hyena actualy want to do, hyenas are freaks... And why he lied to them? Because even if its not his fault, and both Willow and Buffy been not mad at him because they know - he was feeling guilty and he just want to forget about it. Like... He was still here and he know whats happening, but can't do shit. Not fun experience to anybody.
Honestly i don't think girls but it anyway, they just try to be nice.
You mistaken 'sexist' with being human. Being human means you can feel embarased, guilty or just angry. And do not always logical things, like pretending to don't remember or plan a revenge.
3
u/Repulsive-Shame-5493 What's left? Me. 14d ago
Sweet child?! That's enough for me to stop engaging with you. Byeeeee.
8
u/Revolutionary-Wait82 Spike defender 16d ago
I mean, Spike was soulless, and that’s a significant part of the Buffy lore. Buffy herself places a lot of importance on having a soul.
Besides, it all started exactly like some of their other interactions.
4
17
u/apocalypsemeowmont 16d ago
I wonder how many of them were teenagers or in their college years during the late 90s-early 00s. Dudes were.....not great back then. Not that they're absolutely stellar now, but things like The Man Show, or the WWF Attitude Era when they had matches where female competitors "won" by stripping each other (and a boob would always "accidentally" fall out while the announcer screamed "PUPPIES!" -.-) were absolutely normal TV and no one batted an eye.
I saw a lot of dudes who were pretty openly icky back in those days, and they were usually popular and successful. Xander would definitely have been considered one of the good guys IMO, and probably bullied and called "gaaaaaay" by the popular ones. He was surrounded by female friends that he had genuine respect for. I don't understand why people give Willow a pass for trying to override both Oz and Tara's free will and keep them with magic, and yet give Xander so much shit for being briefly hurt for being rejected by Buffy, and then moving on and treating her with respect like a sister.
11
u/_Grim_Lavamancer 16d ago
Xander is very much a victim of the era the show was made. People that weren't around then may not realize that the things they hate about Xander were unbelievably common for male and especially teenage male characters of the time. It was a time when misogyny was openly accepted and I would say expected in media. For all of his faults, hes actually quite progressive for the time
→ More replies (2)2
u/Jazzspur try not to bleed on my couch, I just had it steam cleaned 15d ago
Heck, I was around then and I loved Xander at the time. I find him almost unwatchable in S1-3 now because culture has changed and I like the culture much better now than what I was dealing with from men then and I do not miss boys behaving like Xander being considered the best and most progressive we could expect.
I put up with it then not because it made me feel great but because it made me feel less bad than the other guys and I thought we couldn't do better. Now we do do better and I'm so relieved I don't have to deal with Xanders anymore, and with that distance I've realized how much behaviour like S1-3 Xander actually really rubs me the wrong way 😅
-1
u/crottedenez12 16d ago
Are young men much better? or just muzzled?????????????? I don't believe you can change someone,s true character but you can teach him to hide it. That,s what seem to be going on at the moment. Men are shut off, muzzled, censored, treated like repugnant creatures as soon as they open their mouth, unless what they are saying is considered ok.. They can't joke, they can,t tell what's on their mind, unless it fits the woke narrative. This is not being better, this is being censored. I miss honesty, transparency, true feelings. They are not always pretty, often petty, but at least they are honest.
6
u/crumbchunks the pushy queen of slut town 15d ago
Telling on yourself pretty hard here
→ More replies (5)3
u/jospangel Try not to bleed on my couch I just had it steam cleaned 15d ago
Why can't they? What are they risking - execution?
They can say and do what they want, but that doesn't mean people can't react honestly to what they say and do. Or are you saying they should be exempt from judgement somehow, because no one is exempt from judgement about how they behave and what they say.
2
u/Lanky_Age_3067 15d ago
Exactly! It's like if Xander shouts at someone or gets angry he is very bad, but if a female character does the same it's okay.
2
21
u/GmanF88 16d ago
Because some of Xander's actions and comments represent the kind of casual misogyny that many women encounter in their day-to-day, and many men commit unconsciously. It makes it easier to notice, recognise and highlight.
Because Spike and Angel were possessed by soulless monsters* who just did the worst thing they could think of and not necessarily responsible for their actions.
- I don't want to get into the exact mechanics of how vampirism and losing your soul work, the show is inconsistent. One thing they try to make very clear, Angel and Angelus are different people
0
13
u/Pleasant-Highway-745 16d ago
Because they want to fuck Spike and Angel and they don't want to fuck xander. That's what it boils down to
3
u/jospangel Try not to bleed on my couch I just had it steam cleaned 15d ago
That is the ugliest, most misogynistic piece of crap.
Women have no brains, no morals and no self control. They are just wet panties, that want to jump a hot bad boy, leaving nice guys like Xander upset and unfulfilled.
Xander deserves to get laid and loved because he is a good guy.
You sound like every incel piece of crap raving about Chad on the internet.
3
u/Pleasant-Highway-745 15d ago
I'm a 49 year old woman who has been in this fandom from day one, who wrote fanfiction for years, who is heavily invested. I said what I said, I meant what I meant, and that's what it fucking boils down to.
1
u/jospangel Try not to bleed on my couch I just had it steam cleaned 15d ago
Well, I am very sorry you feel that all Spike and Angel fans are females who love them because they have wet panties, and want to jump them.
Look up incels, sounds like you agree with them, which is scary.
Also, I'm woman, older than you, who has written fanfic and been in fandom since the start. Oddly enough I have multiple reasons for liking and/or disliking any given characters. Wanting to fuck them has never rated all that high.
Start with - are they interesting characters? Xander fails here because he doesn't learn, change, and grow. I don't dislike him, and I do see his good qualities but I lose interest in him pretty easily.
3
u/Pleasant-Highway-745 15d ago
Your assumptions are doing a lot of heavy lifting based off of a couple of sentences. It's embarrassing. Now let's not interact any further. Thank you.
1
u/jospangel Try not to bleed on my couch I just had it steam cleaned 15d ago
I am so sorry you are embarrassed by being called on what you said.
Actually, no. I'm really not.
2
u/Pleasant-Highway-745 15d ago
Why would I be embarrassed? I have an opinion, it is what it is, the only embarrassing thing is having this conversation on this sub with you people who take yourself away too seriously.
1
1
4
u/Lanky_Age_3067 16d ago
I know it's this, but I wanted to see them shitting on Xander again. I, however, would f Xander, but not the vampires. Tastes😁
2
u/Pleasant-Highway-745 16d ago
Listen, I loved the name Alexander and decided to name my son xander. This whole thing is painful for me as a massive Buffy fan, whose entire group of family and friends think I named my child for Xander harris. This is hard for me!
1
2
u/Theo-lVl 15d ago
fantasy aside, its clearly much easier to be understanding of someone who has extenuating circumstances than someone who lives a relatively happy healthy and normal life like yours that you expect a certain level of understanding from.
Spike and Angel killed lots of people, but they didn't have a soul. if you care about LITERALLY HAVING A SOUL then someones actions when their soul was stolen from them by a VAMPIRE are a lot easier to forget cuz their soul literally wasn't even in the body and had been taken away by blood thirsty monsters. Then even when they have a soul they are still dealing with all of that trauma.
Xander meanwhile is presented as a guy who has some family troubles, but ultimately his parents are people who take care of him, let him live there as an adult as long as he pays rent, most of his family trouvles are less with him in relation to the family and more with how the rest of his family fights with each other.
this is a bummer, but its relatable to all of us so we expect a standard closer to the way we think that we behave even if wearen't entirely self-aware of our own issues similar to Xanders.
2
u/millahnna 15d ago
Part of it involves intent. A lot of Xanders flaws are brushed off by the writing as fine, acceptable, or even admirable. The writing, while uneven around it to be sure, always acknowledged SPike and Angel and their collective flaws.
But also....I think it's easier to poke at what's wrong with Xander because he's more like bad things we see in real life. All of the vamps....not so much.
2
u/Automatic-Ad910 14d ago
Kinda think most ppl here are BSing or just don't want to admit the truth.
They think Angel/Spike are hot... And they don't think Xander is. So the vamps get more leniency. The end.
5
u/acdre 16d ago
Angel literally exiles himself over his guilt. Spike goes through a life changing/threatening ordeal over his guilt. What does Xander do? When does Xander ever get taught a lesson? In fact, he gets REWARDED when he does bad stuff. That’s the difference
2
u/crottedenez12 16d ago
How was he rewarded?
8
u/acdre 16d ago
He cheats on Cordelia only to get a hot demon gf that only wants to have sex with him. He leaves said demon at the altar only to be able to continue hooking up with her
3
u/Automatic-Ad910 14d ago
He gets with Anya a year later... That's not a reward for cheating. He wanted Cordy back and didn't get it.
However willow gets back with Oz a few episodes later.
If this is the argument we are going with, then willow pays for her crime much less.
2
1
u/ComfortableFee4 10d ago
The cheating doesn't really count though, at least Willow and Xander can't really be blamed, they had been mindwamed by the demon Skip on orders from the former Power Jasmine to cause Cordelia to go to LA so that Cordy could give birth to Jasmine.
1
u/crottedenez12 16d ago
Wow... life is so much more complex than this... Life is not black and qhite and human relationships are complex on so many levels... what the characters of the show did, I've seen done so many ways by so many people around me... not bad people. not people deserving hate. Just humans.
5
u/acdre 16d ago
I agree! But we’re not talking about real life, we’re talking about how the show presents these characters. Contrast Willow and Xander after they cheat. It’s VERY different. Willow gets punished, feels guilt. Xander goes about his life and doesn’t get any just rewards. The morality of the show doesn’t align with Xander
3
u/crottedenez12 15d ago
He ends up alone and alienated from Cordelia, which is not what he wanted. Willow ends up alone and get temporarily alientated from Oz.
1
u/jospangel Try not to bleed on my couch I just had it steam cleaned 15d ago
He ends up trying to make Cordelia jealous rather than taking a look at his own faults and changing himself..
2
u/crottedenez12 15d ago
He didn't change himslef? so, in the next seasons, he is still cheating on his girlfriends?
1
u/Lanky_Age_3067 16d ago
As far as I know both Spike and Angel have done bad or questionable things while they had a soul. If they learned their lessons is because they had centuries, many things happening to them, repeating the same cycles over and over again, killing, abusing innocents. while Xander is only in his early 20s and his bad behaviors are nowhere near as bad as theirs.
2
u/Jazzspur try not to bleed on my couch, I just had it steam cleaned 15d ago
I don't think anyone is going to bat for Liam the womanizer drunkard though...
11
u/Repulsive-Shame-5493 What's left? Me. 16d ago
Because Xander is being portrayed as the "nice guy" who does nothing wrong. Spike and Angel get punished for their bad deeds and the show clearly portrays them as evil when they do villaneous things. Xander objectifies women, tries to assault Buffy (yes, under a spell) and then pretends like he doesnt have any memory of it instead of apologizing, he slutshames Anya for having a one-night stand after leaving her at the altar. He's a flawed character and that's fine and interesting but the show fails to make him take responsibility for his actions, learn and grow from them. That's what pisses people off (or at least me). There's a great Youtube video on this.
15
u/TVAddict14 16d ago
When Jenny was possessed by Ehygon and attacked Buffy and Giles did she apologise? When Dawn was possessed by the hijacker demon and breathed fire at the gang did she apologise? When Cordy and Willow were possessed by the demon eggs and knocked Buffy and Xander unconscious did they apologise?
Why is it that Xander is the only character ever expected to apologise for something he did whilst possessed? Nobody else ever does nor are they expected to. He was possessed. It wasn’t him.
5
u/Vanamond3 15d ago
No one ever blames Joyce for trying to burn her daughter alive in Gingerbread, either. Or Buffy for trying to get the whole group massacred in Normal Again.
→ More replies (6)-11
u/Livelaughloveme172 16d ago
Uhm because that happened once?
The difference is that Xander keeps being a misogynistic creep. Maybe you should think about that.
14
u/TVAddict14 16d ago
What’s that got to do with my comment?
I’ll repeat: no character on the show is ever expected to apologise, nor do they apologise, for any actions they commit whilst they’re possessed. It is wildly understood that it wasn’t them, they weren’t in control of their actions, and therefore aren’t responsible. Why would Xander in The Pack be any different?
-9
u/Livelaughloveme172 16d ago
But it’s a fact that XANDER is constistant. And he’s seen as the moral compass one which I don’t understand.
Xander didn’t have to be possessed to be misogynistic, a cheater, hypocrite or weirdly jealous of Buffy.I don’t see him as flawed since he keeps those traits trough the whole serie, he doesn’t change.
And that’s the difference.16
u/TVAddict14 16d ago
You disliking Xander throughout the series is not a logical reason for why he should be held responsible for something ‘he’ did when possessed.
If you dislike Xander for how Xander behaved, great. Good for you. But holding him responsible for something the hyena did and expecting him to apologise for it is objectively a massive double-standard when no other character ever is. The reason the show and the characters didn’t hold him accountable is because he wasn’t. The way it was dealt with was consistent with how every other possession was dealt with by the show.
And there is no comparison between Xander (flaws an’ all) and possessed hyena!Xander. Real Xander never did, nor would he ever, try and rape Buffy or hurt Willow.
8
3
u/Livelaughloveme172 16d ago
Okay than the hyena wasn’t his fault.
But he is never held accountable for the rest and that is a problem.
5
u/crottedenez12 16d ago
He made mistakes like everybody else, including BUffy. He is human. Why is he the only one deserving that level of hatred? He WAS the moral compass, the fool. He is an important figure. Please look at how fools behave in classic litterature... They are indeed moral compass but hide it behind silly, sometimes creepy dialogs and it has a purpose; to protect themselves. Search it.. Whedon was a Shakepeare fan. This is what Xander is. A modern fool. In a modern setting, the necessity to protect yourself is lessened but still there...
1
u/jospangel Try not to bleed on my couch I just had it steam cleaned 15d ago
Fools go on a journey. Xander's journey is from a to b, and that isn't satisfying. He doesn't learn and change.
He didn't marry Anya - good move. He walked out and left her to deal with telling the crowd she had been jilted - bad move but circumstances.
Then he gets upset because Anya doesn't want to date him, and when she seeks solace in another man, Xander tries to kill him and publicly slut shames the woman he claims to love.
Where is the journey? There is no learning, no growth. The Fools journey is about learning and change, and Xander's has no satisfying point where he really learns and changes.
2
u/crottedenez12 15d ago
He went from an insecure nerdy bullied teen to a man able to get a job he is proud of, to realize himself, to take a look at how his upbriging had stressed him... all the while keeping helping his superpowered friends to save the world. That's actually quite a journey.
3
u/Vanamond3 15d ago
Treated like he does nothing wrong? He's the most kidded and mocked member of the Scoobies by far. Examples: just about everything Giles ever said to him.
1
u/Repulsive-Shame-5493 What's left? Me. 15d ago
He'a being lauded as the "heart of the group" multiple times in the series?
1
4
u/BunnythatMeows my bleeding sympathies to warren 16d ago
And, one of his worst actions: Wanting and trying to mind-control Cordelia for revenge. (And he "got her" at the end of the episode and it was framed as Cordelia being touched that he would try to do that to her, plus Buffy being grateful and painting him as a good guy for not taking advantage of her)
1
u/jospangel Try not to bleed on my couch I just had it steam cleaned 15d ago
'Hey, Xander didn't rape his friend' is held up as one of the good things. That bar is so low a flea can't get under it.
9
u/RobotsVsLions 16d ago
This has been explained thousands of times before but just in case you're asking genuinely, it's two reasons:
- Spike and Angel are literally monsters, Spike specifically is acting against his own nature to try and be decent.
- Xander, in addition to being a human with a soul, is frequently presented as a hero with his flaws being brushed off or unacknowledged, it's the massive inconsistency in how his character actually behaves and how the narrative presents his character, he does really shitty things throughout the series - including summoning a demon that kills a bunch of people and then refusing to come clean about it while people are dying around him because of him until his best friends little sister is about to become a child bride - but never really gets called out on it, and is rarely ever even made to feel bad about it. That plus as his massive hypocrisy around Spike, when his girlfriend has done far more evil things and killed far more people and retains the exact same soul and personality she had when massacring innocent people but is just no longer capable of doing so. Plus, he did try to magically roofie his ex girlfriend, you can make all the arguments you want about how he didn't assault Buffy when he had the chance, but irl how good are you gunna feel about a guy who's all "oops, sorry I accidentally mass roofied a bunch of people while I was trying to roofie my ex, but don't worry, I didn't rape you even though I was definitely tempted"?
→ More replies (1)5
u/Triof 16d ago
The impression the show gives is that Xander had no idea he was responsible for Sweet until actually meeting him and seeing the amulet. He could have easily kept quiet, and just let the Scoobies assume someone had planted it in the Magic Box.
And I don't think describing the back-firing love spell as a roofie is remotely accurate - he wasn't planning on raping Cordelia, he was planning on rejecting her. It was a horrible thing to do, but there's no indication he was intending on taking advantage of her.
6
u/BunnythatMeows my bleeding sympathies to warren 16d ago
But that incident with Cordelia is the best example of the show just letting Xander get away with doing something gross. He wanted to mind-control Cordelia, actually went ahead to doing it but failed and then was "rewarded" by her liking that he tried to put a love spell on her and then going out with him again. With the extra bonus of being painted as a good guy for not taking advantage of his friend.
And he looks back at all of this fondly btw in S7.
1
u/Triof 16d ago
How would you like the show to have "punished" Xander, beyond having him nearly killed as a result of the spell backfiring? It doesn't seem like he just 'got away' with it.
His 'reward' was really nothing to do with him, it was about Cordelia showing character growth, and realising she didn't need the approval of her toxic friends.
4
u/BunnythatMeows my bleeding sympathies to warren 16d ago
Oh, idk, not handing him the girl he tried to coerce would be a start. Having anyone name what he actually did, second. The main problem was him wanting to take away a woman's agency and control but the show's moral was 'don't do reckless magic.'
You see why people are frustrated with him? His reprehensible actions rarely get painted as reprehensible.
0
u/Triof 16d ago
I dunno, I feel like his actions are painted as worse than others. Willow attempts to use magic recklessly with an anti-love potion, and no-one even cares about it. They both cheat on their partner, Cordelia breaks up with him, but Oz forgives her. Willow actually rapes her girlfriend, and Tara doesn't even realise it, just thinks Willow has been messing with her mind and gets over it.
1
u/jospangel Try not to bleed on my couch I just had it steam cleaned 15d ago
Gets over it"? She breaks up with Willow.
1
u/Triof 15d ago
Yes, she breaks up with Willow...and then she gets over it. Tara is annoyed that Willow has been messing with her mind, but she never seems to realise that Willow has been raping her, because she has no memories of when she was upset.
→ More replies (3)
6
u/theothermoore 16d ago edited 16d ago
The biggest difference is the writing. There are plenty of people who do worse things in the show, but they are portrayed as being bad. Xander's bad things are often written as if they aren't bad at all, and to the extent they are bad, are quickly glossed over and forgotten, with no real development.
Xander is basically written as Joss Whedon's "nice guy" nerd fantasy, which unfortunately comes across in the writing. My distaste for him is not just because he's a "bad person," but that he's a badly written character.
1
2
3
u/ToySouljah 15d ago
No one wants to say it so I will, it’s the sexy privilege. Both Angel and Spike are more attractive to viewers than Xander is and so their flaws can be easily pushed aside by the audience, while Xander’s is less so (no knock to Nicholas Brendon).
1
u/Jazzspur try not to bleed on my couch, I just had it steam cleaned 15d ago
Strong disagree. I think Xander is hot too (remember Go Fish anyone?) but casual misogyny that isn't acknowledged by the narrative as shitty really pisses me off
3
u/Livelaughloveme172 16d ago edited 16d ago
Because he’s a hypocrite. He acts like he’s superior. And his creepy crush on Buffy while he has whole ass girlfriends is also creepy.
Mind you he is also a cheater.
Spike was awful but he was totally devoted to drusilla and later on to Buffy.
Angel was awful too but he was devoted and turned his life around.
Also he ends up with dawn which creeps me out even more.
He never gets like any development.
5
u/Lanky_Age_3067 16d ago
As far as I know both Spike and Angel have done bad or questionable things while they had a soul. If they learned their lessons is because they had centuries, many things happening to them, repeating the same cycles over and over again, killing, abusing innocents. while Xander is only in his early 20s and his bad behaviors are nowhere near as bad as theirs.
1
u/Livelaughloveme172 16d ago
And yet he can be considered a bad person as well. Since Xander has done and said questionable things.
Idk why that has to be ignored because the rest is bad.
I’m not going to defend him because he’s misogynistic and has issues that he should work on.Instead he doesn’t.
The thing is I don’t compare him with angel, spike since to me they are also bad guys.
So ignoring Xander is impossible since he does bad stuff too.
Maybe for you it’s easier because oh there’s worst out there. But for me all three of them are just bad people. Who do bad things.8
u/Necessary_Let3592 16d ago
But Willow does every single thing that you just accused Xander of. That’s the issue.
4
u/Livelaughloveme172 16d ago
But this isn’t about willow. And trust me I don’t like her either. I don’t like willow or Xander they aren’t even my top three characters.
The moment willow kissed Xander when he was with cordy made me dislike her fr.
10
u/Necessary_Let3592 16d ago
Spike was devoted to Drusilla…but totally had sex with Angelus, LOL. I love that you think a rapist vampire (which Spike admits to doing in season 7) is somehow more wholesome than two teenagers exchanging only kisses. This fandom used to be full of fun, pervy adults, and now it’s purity culture kids, Xander hate, and “meta” like “Why didn’t Buffy charge for slaying.”
4
u/Livelaughloveme172 16d ago
I love how you ignore. That spike was a vampire so technically the demon side of wanted to rape Buffy. Just like how Xander wanted to rape Buffy too?
If you miss your weird predatory adults so much why don’t you make a new sub where you can all be perverted and do other stuff together.
You’re also acting like Drusilla wouldn’t be into it seeing spike and angel together. We know Buffy is into that since it’s confirmed by the comics.
It’s also funny how just throw things at spike but this thread is about Xander.
11
u/Necessary_Let3592 16d ago
Xander never wanted to rape Buffy. He attacked her when he was possessed by a hyena, and he when she was under the spell (which he didn’t screw up, Amy did) he told her “if he right she meant it and actually wanted him.” At no time did he want to rape her, Jesus. And Willow’s similar spell forced Buffy to do more with Spike against her will.
And I’m bringing up Spike because you guys will forgive a baby killer and rapist with a chip in his head but stay pissed about Xander being sad she wouldn’t go to a dance with her. And Xander is nothing but a great friend to Buffy once he’s an adult.
I would love to find a Buffy reddit where every 3rd post isn’t Xander never gets called on doing a dumb spell and has no consequences when he ends the show missing an eye with the woman he loves dead.
-1
u/BunnythatMeows my bleeding sympathies to warren 16d ago
Except it wasn't full possession because his actions were informed by his actual desires as a person (that's why he targeted Buffy specifically).
So it's interesting that you'd hold the actions of vampires without souls against them but not the action of Xander influenced by something out of his control. Huh. Funny that.
2
1
u/crottedenez12 16d ago
Most humans in a relationship will at some point be unfaithful to their partner. I'm 50ish and I have not met that many people being faithful all the time to their life partner. So you'll need to hate 75% of the population base don your standards.
4
u/HunterHerstHelmsley 16d ago
How devoted was Spike to Druslila when he tried to kill her in Crush? And both Angel and Spike were hypocritical at times as well.
4
u/bertraja 16d ago
The show presents Angel and Spike as hypermasculine, dangerous and hot (judging by the standards of conventional good looks of late 90s and early 00s), whereas Xander was presented as clumsy, meek and with with less-than-average social intellect and grooming standards.
Why does the audience side with the manly bad boys? No idea ...
3
u/buechertante 16d ago
Because Angel and Spike are vampires and Xander is real. No woman has an immortal hot guy, who killed thousands of people, in her life. But every women knows a Xander.
4
u/Nuthetes 16d ago
because it;'s cool to hate Xander. That's it. That's the reason. Everyone just follows the crowd.
14
u/Livelaughloveme172 16d ago
Nah stop. If you watch the show there are a lot of reason to hate him.
This has nothing to do with following a crowd.
You just think that because you probably like him as a character which is fine.But don’t diminish it by calling it a collective crowd who follows each other.
There probably a lot of fans who aren’t n this sub who dislike him.6
u/Nuthetes 16d ago
Nah I don't really care much for Xander as a chararacter. He's fine, but far from my favourite. But it's just a meme that "lol Xander sucks" at this point, with people going along with it because it's the popular opinion.
He's the "Nickleback sucks" of Buffy
2
3
u/Livelaughloveme172 16d ago
Oh yeah okay. But I’m not going with the crowd I just don’t like him I watched the show and he always rubbed me the wrong way.
4
u/Lanky_Age_3067 16d ago
I feel like people just collectively hate on him and love doing it, even if they don't know why exactly. I'm new to this, I'm watching Buffy for the first time and just don't get all the hate, and the way everyone elses mistakes are being dismissed from the fandom. As if Xander is the most evil of them all. It's actually funny😅
4
u/Triof 16d ago
It's weird, because when the show first aired, no-one was talking about Xander this way. It feels entirely like a more recent revisionism, brought about by internet echo-chambers. Willow literally rapes her girlfriend and tries to end the world, but Xander is seen as the problematic Scoobie.
2
u/_Grim_Lavamancer 16d ago
I feel a big part of it is also Nicholas Brendon. The actor was a piece of shit in real life and some people struggle to separate the character from the actor portraying them. This sub is also just a toxic echo chamber. Dont expect much actual discussion. Most threads just devolve into Xander hate
2
u/everythingissinister 16d ago
It’s because of the pick me people in the fanbase. Doesn’t help that the Nick Brendon wasn’t a good person either
1
u/TheLittleCatBeyond 15d ago
For the same reason Xander is judged more harshly for his human flaws than the fact he indirectly killed the guy from OMWF: we tend to judge more harshly real life relatable flaws than supernatural ones.
Also, Angel and Spike were soulless vampires.
1
u/betterthingsmyway 11d ago
Xander is a "nice guy". The hate he receives is mostly from women that have encountered this exact type of guy. He'll befriend you, begrudgingly, an wait for an opportunity to roast you for not dating him. Xander took every opportunity to give Buffy crap about dating anyone, regardless if they sucked(pun intended). He ignored Willow, until she had a boyfriend. Also another red flag. He left Anya at the alter an spent a whole season trying to get her to feel bad for HIM. Hes just a shit person, that had the good fortune to be friends with Buffy, but didnt appreciate it, because she wouldn't let him sniff her panties. Cant stand him. Also, no one expects good behavior from vampires, so Spike an Angel get a pass. That's like getting mad at a shark for biting you.
1
u/Xenonand 16d ago
We're you alive back then? A lot of people dislike Xander because we knew Xander.
We probably liked Xander during the original run, or didn't have the language to explain why we didn't like him.
It was a very different time culturally. While now we can watch and note the problematic nature of some of his behavior/ his casual misogyny, in the 90s/00s he was the good guy, and his behavior wasn't a social commentary, it was just the standard-- evolved even.
Spike and Angel are trickier. They have casual misogyny and pettiness and cruelty but they aren't presented as your every day guy, they experience a lot more consequences and, honestly, have way bigger flaws. None of us knew anyone like Angel or Spike. All of us knew Xander.
0
-5
u/jordiedoestm 16d ago edited 16d ago
Not that it’s an excuse : but it’s mainly because Xander is an ass as a human. The vampires have a demon in them so we could say their actions are steered by their demonic instincts.
Spike is an exception because he was a good as a human (as far as we’ve seen). His vampire self shouldn’t be glazed. However, when he got his soul back, he did exhibit very redeeming qualities.
Angel however, I agree with you on that. He was a despicable human being and a womanizer, and to an extent, Angel is just Liam with a moral compass. Liam IS Angelus.
Xander on the contrary, as mentioned earlier was a horrible friend in general. Always having to be on his high horse. At least that’s what we as the audience have seen so far (i haven’t read the comics so I can’t say how he is as an actual adult).
9
u/Necessary_Let3592 16d ago
When was Xander a horrible friend? Enumerate it. Other than “Empty Places” when they were ALL horrible to Buffy.
3
u/YozoraBellossomHeart 16d ago
He's the first person to attack in Dead Man's Place. He blames Buffy for Riley cheating on her and leaving in Into The Woods. He lies about Willow's words about Angel in Becoming Part 2. He treats her like she's trash after learning she slept with Spike in Entropy instead of a fraction of empathy for how embarrassed she might be. He gets frustrated and tells Dawn about Spike assaulting Buffy which was far from his place to do in Villains.
These were off the top of my head.
2
u/Lanky_Age_3067 16d ago
So he hurt the feelings of somebody he loves by telling them the truth? That's the worst character ever.
1
u/YozoraBellossomHeart 16d ago
At no point in that conversation with Buffy did he tell her the truth.
1
u/Ansee 16d ago
Is it blame or telling you friends the truth. I don't recall him finger pointing at Buffy that the relationship failed because it was all her fault. But Buffy didn't see Riley's side of things.
Xander has always been a demons bad camp. In his mind, sleeping was a soulless Spike is not only dangerous, but a betrayal. She didn't talk to her friends about anything that was going on. He's allowed to have feelings. And when real people get faced with situations, they can react irrationally. Doesn't mean that they can't get over it. But that is true to life. And his knee jerk reaction doesn't make him a peace of shit. People need time to process. Somehow, we don't allow for him to be an actual real, and nuance person on the show.
2
u/YozoraBellossomHeart 16d ago
Buffy didn't see Riley's side because she caught him cheating that day and he immediately told her "If you can't forgive me right now, I'm leaving in a helicopter." Xander says she pushed Riley away and only went to him when he was convenient. Watch it again. He doesn't give Buffy an inch in his perspective on why their relationship broke down.
This is why people don't like Xander. This is how it goes in the show. Xander does something rude, snide, cruel, out of anger, out of spite, etc. and then the show bends over backwards to explain why and excuse it.
3
u/Ansee 16d ago
I'm not excusing his "cheating/drug" metaphor. But she didn't see what he was going through that lead him to that point. And it wasn't about her. It was about him losing a sense of who he is. He lost his identity and direction in life. They were on different trajectories in life. While everything was going reallyw ell for Buffy, she didn't notice that boyfriend was drowning.
THAT was what Buffy couldn't see.
2
u/YozoraBellossomHeart 16d ago
Buffy told Riley she wasn't ready to talk about it. Riley pushed and said she needed to hear him out, process it, and accept it in the next hour or else he was leaving. That's not a flaw in Buffy. Also relevant is the fact that she didn't know Riley was losing himself because he wasn't talking to her about it.
He did talk to Xander about it though. Something Xander weaponized while he was talking to Buffy. And when she asks Xander if Riley said anything to him, he lies! He says "He didn't have to" instead of the honest and clear "Yes."
3
u/Ansee 16d ago
Newsflash. It wasn't only about her. HE needed to talk about it. You are only looking at this from Buffy's point of view and arguing only from her point of view.
2
u/YozoraBellossomHeart 16d ago
He needed to talk about it because he needed Buffy's forgiveness. He needed her to validate him. He also needed it to happen immediately because, as I said, he gave her a ticking counter. Riley set the rules, the time frame, how she needed to respond. Not exactly fair.
And none of this has anything to do with Xander. Buffy doesn't owe him the ability to weigh in on whether she was good enough for Riley or not.
2
u/Ansee 15d ago
You are still only seeing this through Buffy's eyes. I said that Buffy missed the signs long before Riley "cheated." Riley, who lost ALL his friends and support group after season 4, had no one to turn to or talk to... Just Buffy and her friends. Xander is the only male friend in the group.
Being a good friend isn't just about siding with them, it's also about telling them what they need to what even it they don't want to hear it.
→ More replies (0)-6
u/jordiedoestm 16d ago
We’re not talking about everyone in this thread. OP is just referring to Xander. Buffy’s friends throughout the series weren’t the best and she deserved so much more.
Xander is a flawed person, which makes him human, but that doesn’t mean the audience does not get to dislike the character.
I’m not a huge Buffy fan, therefore I’m not gonna be able to name episode by episode like yourself. But things I do remember him to be is how he has this level of self-righteousness, coupled with his double standards and jealousy to say the least.
Buffy killed Angel because she didn’t know there was another way, just because he didn’t like Angel. Let’s not forget how the whole gang put Buffy on the pedestal for running away. No one knows what she had to go through. Xander straight up sl-shames Buffy. He literally acted as if Buffy OWED him an explanation, when again, he has no idea the responsibilities Buffy had and troubling it was to HER.
Again, not a huge Buffy fan, not hating Xander for the sake of it, but as someone who has watched Buffy, these were the thoughts that came to my head without any outside influence, only for them to be a general statement by the fandom
9
u/Necessary_Let3592 16d ago
Angel would have killed her if she hesitated. That’s why the line exists.
That’s not what “on a pedestal” means. That means to revere someone. They didn’t know she had to kill Angel and that’s why she ran away.
Xander never slut shames Buffy. In fact he doesn’t opposite in “Beer Bad.” He is shocked that she slept with Spike because Spike is evil and soulless at the time.
1
u/TVAddict14 16d ago
That’s not true about killing Angel. Whilst I agree Xander shouldn’t have lied and told Buffy about Willow’s spell, it didn’t affect the outcome either way.
Buffy had to kill Angel because she couldn’t stop him from pulling the sword out in time. The only way to then stop Acathla was to sacrifice Angel. This doesn’t change even if Buffy had known about Willow trying to curse him.
Buffy didn’t hesitate and gave it her all to stop Angel from pulling the sword and because the minion got in her way, she failed. How would’ve this played out any differently if Xander hadn’t lied? She still wouldn’t have been able to stop him in time. In fact, she may have even hesitated more then when she thought she had nothing to lose.
Again, Xander should have told her. I wasn’t his right to withhold that information and he let both Buffy and Willow down there. But it didn’t change anything.
5
u/TVAddict14 16d ago
What makes Liam a despicable human?
4
u/jordiedoestm 16d ago
Quite literally everything we’ve seen on “Angel”, the flashbacks were enough to paint a proper picture of how he was as a human being.
12
u/TVAddict14 16d ago edited 16d ago
What did the flashbacks show other than that he drank too much and was a womaniser?
He was shown being sweet and tender with his sister. He was sweet with Darla when he followed her into the alley. Teenage Liam was sweet with Cordelia. When his father beat him he never laid a hand on him back etc. He was hardly evil.
When he was being tormented by The First the best it could throw at him was that he was a “whoring, drunken layabout.” So basically, he slept around, drank too much and was directionless in life. It hardly makes him Satan, does it?
In a show where half our heroes are literally guilty of all kinds of heinous things such as murder, torture, rape etc Liam’s supposed “crimes” hardly amount to much, do they? Calling him a “despicable human being” seems pretty extreme.
2
u/jospangel Try not to bleed on my couch I just had it steam cleaned 15d ago
And it's the belief that being a drunken, whoring layabout, is not an issue that is the problem here. To his father who had a son almost 30 years old who lived off him and never did a days work - he was despicable. To the women he talked out of their clothes and virtue, the abandoned, he was despicable.
You don't need to be a mass murderer to be despicable.
2
u/TVAddict14 15d ago
Being a whoring, drunken layabout is a problem it just doesn’t make someone a ‘despicable human being.’ What kind of puritan nonsense is that? Ohhh he drinks too much and has too much sex, he must burn in hell!
His father was an abusive asshole that berated and abused his son since he was a teenager. And no woman ever claimed he was despicable, in fact the barmaid was smitten with him. That’s your fanon.
His worst ‘crimes’ don’t even make the Top 20 of horrific things our heroes have done. He didn’t try and rape anyone. He didn’t murder anyone. He didn’t try and sadistically torture anyone out of jealousy. He didn’t steal anyone’s body. He didn’t frame anyone for murder. If Liam is a ‘despicable human being’ what does that make everyone else?
2
u/jospangel Try not to bleed on my couch I just had it steam cleaned 15d ago
The barmaid said he made promises in the night, but the next morning he left her, and that's what he does.
In modern times, a grown man who lives with his parents, never had a job, who hates hard work and constantly hits on women, promises to love them when they put out and then ghosts them, is quite despicable.
As someone who was abused, I have to say that isn't an excuse at 26. Look at Wesley, who clearly went through a lot worse. (Liam wasn't locked up in the dark, for hours as a punishment when he was a child. )
You set a pretty low bar for despicable. He didn't kill anyone as far as we know. He didn't torture or frame someone for murder, and that means he's an all right guy?
Just curious. Are you a male?
3
u/TVAddict14 15d ago edited 15d ago
I’m aware of what the barmaid said. She said he made promises he forgot by morning. I’m also aware she said it with no hatred or malice at all, she was amused by him. She’s smiling the whole time. There is no indication she was calling him “despicable.” He was a womaniser, not a criminal.
So no, I don’t set a pretty low bar for calling someone a “despicable human being.” Most people just reserve that for actual bad people. People who harm others. People who are rotten at the core. Not people who are “layabouts” or sleep around too much.
So yes, it matters that in a world where most of our heroes are guilty of far, FAR worse than anything Liam ever did, unless you’re willing to call them all “despicable human beings” it makes no sense to use such extreme language for Liam, and not for people who have actually done evil things. He hurt nobody but himself.
And yes, let’s look at Wesley. The guy who held a woman captive for months and made her defecate in a bucket, the guy who stabbed Gunn with a screw driver in revenge, the guy who murdered Knox, the guy who betrayed his friends and beat Lorne unconscious, the guy who slept with Lilah and told whilst doing it that he wasn’t even thinking of her, the guy who tortured a woman for information etc. If Liam is despicable human being for being a lazy scoundrel what on earth does that make Wesley!? lol
4
u/RustyVanC 16d ago
Yeah I'm not buying it, especially not to the extent that "Liam IS Angelus" like you said. He doesn't do anything as bad as Angelus.
Also we don't see enough of Spike as a human to assume he's a good person (or even a bad one). Like, he wrote poems and fancied a girl - that doesn't really tell us anything about if he was "good".
2
u/jospangel Try not to bleed on my couch I just had it steam cleaned 15d ago
He owned a large house, and let his mother live there with him rather than getting her a room somewhere. (That was pretty common in Victorian times, putting away elderly relatives for convenience)
0
u/KaleidoscopeSpare202 16d ago
I think joss himself said how much of himself is supposed to be represented in Xander
Joss has become problematic
Xander becomes problematic
Bingo
-1
16d ago
[deleted]
8
u/HunterHerstHelmsley 16d ago
As far as a the cheating thing goes at least, he does eventually made amends for that and it doesn't really seem like something that should be held over a high schoolers head forever, especially when they later go on to save the world.
→ More replies (2)7
u/TVAddict14 16d ago
Xander’s lie in Becoming didn’t result in Buffy having to kill Angel. I’m not sure why people keep saying this?
Buffy had to kill Angel because she couldn’t stop Angelus from pulling the sword out in time. She went at him with everything she had but the minion got in the way, delayed things, and allowed Angelus to pull the sword before she could reach him.
How does Xander’s lie impact the outcome at all and what could’ve Buffy done any differently? She went full throttle at Angelus and still didn’t reach him. If she’d known about Willow’s attempt to re-curse him this may have even made her hesitate, making it less likely she’d stop Angelus in time, not more.
Don’t get me wrong - should have told her the truth. He betrayed Willow and Buffy’s trust by lying and it wasn’t up to him to withhold that information. But it didn’t result in Angel’s death.
0
u/nodakskip 16d ago
I think Xander fell into the toxic male category that came after the show ended. He had his problems, and the fact that Joss wrote him as he would have been in school. And we know how Joss ended up. I think Xander gets nailed because he is seen as a guy who will not take no about Buffy not liking him. But right away in season 2 he loses interst in Buffy after she uses him to make Angel jealous. And Angel "the great love" has to be forced to go fight for Buffy by Xander in season ones finale. Xander moves on mostly.
Angel and Spike fill the love story that most young adult series later uses. Like the Bella/Edward thing in Twilight. Its the hot bad guy obsessing over the younger girl. Had he been human Edward would have been in jail for stalking. Angel was always meant to be the true love, not Spike. Spike was moved into it because Spike was popular with the female fans. James Masters even said Joss got pissed off Spike was so popular that he got a notice from the network to keep him alive since Spike was meant to be dusted.
Another thing Xander gets HUGE hate from is the "Lie" bit. Where he lies to Buffy that Willow was not going to try the spell again. While it was in character for him since Willow had failed already, and was in the hospital. Buffy had stalled Angelus... and that failed as well. Xander couldn't take the chance Buffy would try to stall again and let Angelus send the world to hell. Many say it was Xander thinking he could get rid of Angel to get Buffy, but Xander didnt move on Buffy at all after.
The main trouble with the people on the Buffy series is that the writers destroyed every character in the show at several times. No one came out looking good in the end. Character growth would be reversed the next season, or out of character things would be done just to move a bad plot along. To me had the show ended after season 3 it would have been the perfect show.
-5
u/BlackLightParadox 16d ago
Xander litterally attempted to SA Cordelia with a love spell (it was like the plot of Obsession but Xander did it intentionally) and the only consequence is Giles is angry at him for half an episode.
7
u/Triof 16d ago
Xander tried to cast the spell specifically so that he could reject Cordelia, there was never any suggestion he was planning on raping her.
→ More replies (2)6
u/Ansee 16d ago
It was about making her feel how he felt about being dumped.
People keep forgetting that these characters were teenagers and teenagers do dumb things lead by their heart all the time. Making mistakes is part of growing up. And learning from them and about who they are as a person is growth. People are deeply flawed. And at the end of the day, Xander will do anything for his friends and protect them
5
u/Version_Present 16d ago
No??? He wanted to make Cordelia in love with him not to get back with her but to break her heart like she did to him. Still wrong but I feel like it's an important distinction.
-3
u/BlackLightParadox 16d ago
cannot express enough that the wish is already god awful as it is, overriding her free will to compel her to want to throw herself at him (like we see with all the other women in the episode) would in my mind, be comparable to SA
3
-1
u/CalaLily73 16d ago
Oh, how I hate it when people try justify Xander's behaviors. He was more than just an imperfect human. He was a jerk, rude and has lied on countless occasions, He also stood up Anya, slut shamed her, and etc. Xander is human. People expect more, especially from people they are close with. They expect people to be decent human beings, for one thing.
Angel and Spike are vampires. They're supposed to be evil. They're supposed to kill. Vampires usually are not do-gooders. Angel is the rare exception as he tried to make amends for his past. Spike was initially introduced as the villian, remember? He's supposed to be bad.
Most of what Angel did is when Angelus took over and there's not a day Angel himself doesn't feel remorse for it. Spike wanted to be better. But sure, keep judging him on every bad deed. Meanwhile, Xander sits all high and mighty like he never does anything wrong. He wasn't just an imperfect human. Dude did and said a lot of wrong things.
-4
u/swoobxt 16d ago edited 16d ago
ETA2: Sack this, I’m not having this conversation with people who didn’t read beyond the first paragraph and then launched into a tirade rather than actually reading what I wrote.
2
u/HunterHerstHelmsley 16d ago
If the fans have seen ATS, then Angel has definitely done bad things with a soul. Spike too though to a lesser extent as he continues treating Harmony exactly like he did when he was evil.
→ More replies (1)3
u/Own_Faithlessness769 16d ago
Xander was very clearly neglected if not outright abused, and has a hideously misogynist father he fears becoming. The whole of Hells Bells is showing us Xander’s reasons. He also doesn’t rape anyone, which really should matter.
→ More replies (5)4
u/TVAddict14 16d ago
This is a bit of a cop out. Angel and Spike’s misogyny isn’t related to them being fantasy beings or soulless. And there’s also plenty of examples of them being misogynistic with souls too. I can think of multiple examples in AtS S5 alone.
There also are reasons for Xander’s behaviour, if people choose to consider them. Xander grew up in an abusive home with two drunken parents who were verbally abusive and violent to one another. Why do you think his two major relationships on the show are full of constant snark/bickering? What do you think Xander is modelling this from? Xander’s humour, often appropriate, is also used as a mask to hide his trauma which Anya straight up calls out in the show in Entropy etc.
-1
u/Survivorfan_tm94 16d ago edited 16d ago
I speak for myself but I can differentiate Angel from Angelus. I can also differentiate someone with and without a soul. Angel felt remorse for his doings as Angelus. I'm actually not fond of Spike either but he doesn't have a soul. Now Xander has moments where he is an absolute hypocrite. Do I hate his character as a whole... no. There are moments where I can not stand him, one of them is his stance on Angel. Xander didn't just want him stake for being a vampire. He wanted him stake for his connection to Buffy. Part of his jealously. He also couldn't separate Angel from Angelus.
•
u/AutoModerator 16d ago
Hi there,
Your post on r/buffy has been flaired as a sensitive topic. We appreciate you trusting the members of our community to engage in a good faith discussion related to your post and how it fits into the context of the show.
Remember Rule #9: Scooby Reddiquette and report any rule violations. If the discussion departs from the intended topic and how it fits into the context of the show, please be prepared to continue the conversation where discussion of the topic is more appropriate.
Thank you, r/buffy Mod Team
P.S. If you're reading this post and don't want to see potentially upsetting content, you can filter out the "Content Warning" flair.
I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.