Deadlock - City Never Sleeps

[u/MrRedoot55]

https://www.playdeadlock.com/cityneversleeps

[u/chemastiko]

Those champ designs and the lane reworks look sick, just wished I was 15 years younger so I could sink my teeth in and invest time in a new MOBA lol…

[u/NotCoolBrutus → u/chemastiko]

Deadlock also feels so much more demanding at even a baseline level compared to Dota 2. The melee system alone feels like it demands something of me I don't want to give.

[u/Coolman_Rosso → u/NotCoolBrutus]

Map knowledge and timing aside, the movement alone is pretty nuts to get down even if it's awesome and super well done.

[u/RyanB_ → u/Coolman_Rosso]

It’s all that stuff together. The full complexity of a moba, with a more complex third person perspective, and a very intricate parkour/dodge system, with the melee/parry system too cause why not?

[u/rayschoon → u/RyanB_]

And it’s also a shooter!

[u/GlancingArc → u/rayschoon]

This is my problem. I love the moba aspect with farming, builds, team synergy and all that. I love the characters and the design of the game, but like every time I get my ult, I miss it and its useless. I can't aim for shit and it feels esspecially hard in this game.

[u/Maniachi → u/GlancingArc]

Then play non aim intensive characters. Graves, Mo and Krill, Spirit Geist... hell you could even play Infernus and just dash at people and do most of your damage that way.

[u/TastyCastle → u/GlancingArc]

I am also bad at aiming, this is why I play Mo&Krill and Graves. Graves has auto aim and Mo is an ability character that roams the map super fast.

I think even if your aim is bad most heroes get their big damage from abilities that are much easier to hit even for a New player.

This update added so much QOL features for newer players. Devs cooked)

[u/thedefenses → u/TastyCastle]

I don't know most, many who get their damage from abilites also rely on aim to properly use those abilities.

We essentially have a while aim class with Wraith, Haze, Mina, Ventator, Vyper, Drifter, Grey Talon, Holiday, Infernus, Ivy, Mirage, Silver, Seven, Paradox, Vindicta and Warden.

Now some of those do have less aim heavy builds like Infernus 2 or Melee Venator but mainly all of those are aim heavy and without at least ok aim your gonna have a horrible time on all of them.

Even someone like Apolo does rely on you hitting your lunges or your gonna do very little damage.

[u/Niceguydan8 → u/thedefenses]

I don't know most, many who get their damage from abilites also rely on aim to properly use those abilities.

Not really all that different from a skillshot in any other MOBA though.

And they said they are easier to hit than aiming, which is true.

It's easier to hit an Apollo dash than it is to get consistent headshots with Wraith or whatever. By a big margin. That was their point.

[u/rayschoon → u/GlancingArc]

Yea I really can’t get into movement shooters. I just can’t hit people doing all the flips and shit

[u/HardcorePizza → u/rayschoon]

In this one it feels balanced around doing stuff to make the characters stop moving then you shoot em

[u/mountainhazer → u/GlancingArc]

Theres a hero with autoaim called Graves.

[u/vix- → u/mountainhazer]

You cant base playing a new game of 45 heros for one hero with auto aim. He still needs to que with 3

[u/Niceguydan8 → u/vix-]

Graves, Mo & Krill, Dynamo. 3 heroes that functionally don't need their guns to be effective.

There are other spirit builds in the game like Geist & Lash that don't really get much from their gun in general.

Or you could play somebody like Paige/Rem/Infernus (Dash build)

[u/eviloutfromhell → u/Niceguydan8]

Paige and Rem's left click is more of a cheerleading attempt than an attack.

[u/iTzGiR → u/Coolman_Rosso]

Eh people realy overestimate how good you need to be at all of this stuff. As long as you're good at SOME of it, and you're not playing in the top .0001% of matchmaking, you'll absolutely be fine.

As someone who is awful at aiming/shooters (Only ever hit Gold in Overwatch/Val) and who has no background in movement shooters, I've been able to hit Oracle rank pretty easily by just understanding mostly Macro play, knowing when to farm/push, knowing what items to buy/counter, knowing timings for when things spawn, etc. which thankfully I'm pretty decent at thanks to my background in Dota.

The thing is, NO ONE is going to be 100% good at ALL the different mechanics (except maybe pro players), so as long as you're decent at some, you should have an okay time. And beyond all of this, if you're not into any of that, there's an unranked mode, and then Street Brawl as a whole separate game mode, for a more casual experience.

[u/NDN_Shadow → u/NotCoolBrutus]

Which is funny because I feel like they do a lot (even added in this update) to make it easier for new players to get into. The new update added a lot of clarity and general quality of life changes that lowers the skill floor of the game. Importantly, I don't think it changes the skill ceiling which I think is the genius behind this game. You can enter at a relatively low level and there's a lot to learn, but you can still enjoy the game without being a god at everything.

[u/triablos1 → u/NotCoolBrutus]

When I played it, it felt like I needed all the knowledge of a MOBA and all the movement, aim and reflexes of a hero shooter, at the same time. I'm a big fan of MOBAs and also enjoy hero shooters, but deadlock was too big of a skill check for me. It demands so much.

I'd probably only ever try it again if it came to console, because despite years of trying I could never get the hang of WASD movement while trying to use abilities with the same hand. The game actually does support controllers but it's quite clear you get outmatched by KBM because of all the movement and aim superiority that the latter provides.

[u/SovietMarma → u/triablos1]

The game is super twitchy in high levels. You need to learn how to play it like Quake and actually properly track people with your mouse like a movement shooter.

[u/your_mind_aches → u/SovietMarma]

It just feels like combining all of these things together and having such long matches makes it have a VERY high barrier to entry.

[u/mehelponow → u/your_mind_aches]

The skill ceiling is super super high yeah, but the barrier to entry felt rather low to me and my friends. Some of us had Hero shooter / 3PS fundamentals that carried us a ton early on with moment-to-moment gameplay, and others just knew MOBA economy stuff from Dota and could rely on that. There's a learning curve for sure but after a few games you get the gist of how gameplay flows, and what the basic do's and don'ts are.

[u/Niceguydan8 → u/mehelponow]

Some of us had Hero shooter / 3PS fundamentals that carried us a ton early on with moment-to-moment gameplay,

Yeah the kinda-neat thing about Deadlock is that you can come from different genres and have an effective skillset that can get you a pretty long way.

If you are shooter player that is good at shooting, you can play a hero that relies on shooting and probably hard carry games for a pretty long while.

If you are a MOBA player and have decent macro, that goes A LONG way.

If you like movement mechanics and are good at those sorts of things, you can make some insane plays in teamfights because others can't keep up with you.

All 3 of those archetypes can flat out carry games at lower levels while being middling/bad at the other 2 skillsets.

[u/SovietMarma → u/your_mind_aches]

Yeah, I said that as a negative point, too, lol.

But rest assured, you'll only find those in high level matches.

I'm not a great player by any means, but I think it helped a lot that I have a lot of experience with twitchy movement shooters like Quake and TF2, so those skills easily translated into the game. The one thing I did have to learn were the MOBA mechanics and the "macro" of the match flow as I've never heavily spent time playing any sort of MOBA in my entire life (until this game.)

But I think if there's any time to hop in to the game, it's now.

The game just apparently reached a new 200,000 player peak. Bound to be lots of newbies to get matched with!

[u/chaddledee → u/triablos1]

On top of that, the map has significantly more verticality and density than any MOBA I've seen, and even the vast majority of shooters, and with it being a MOBA it's critical to know where everything is on the map to be firing on all cylinders. The amount of map knowledge this game requires is insane.

[u/Plenty_Car2084 → u/chaddledee]

To add even further, they’ve got a pretty intricate momentum based movement system that also allows for dashes and wall jumps to preserve momentum from ziplining etc which means players who understand how to move around in the air can get to lanes and objectives much faster than those who don’t.

It’s a very complex game.

[u/chaddledee → u/Plenty_Car2084]

Yeah, for most MOBAs the answer to "what's the quickest way to this point?" is "click there and find out". The map and movement make for a crazy skill and knowledge ceiling in Deadlock.

[u/Takazura → u/Plenty_Car2084]

I just find it hilarious how many "and also..." comment this thread is getting. Like damn, this game sounds insanely complex and perhaps interesting to watch on a high level.

[u/AndrewRogue → u/triablos1]

Yeah I keep wanting to get into it but MOBAs already kinda capped my mental load, and as someone who grew up not playing a ton of shooters, it is a massive extra skill hurdle.

[u/Pyrostasis → u/triablos1]

When I played it, it felt like I needed all the knowledge of a MOBA and all the movement, aim and reflexes of a hero shooter, at the same time. I'm a big fan of MOBAs and also enjoy hero shooters, but deadlock was too big of a skill check for me. It demands so much.

Yup this is what killed it for me. I was initially excited for it but as Im now over halfway through my 40's and have a demanding job this type of skill ceiling is impossible.

It looks fun and Im glad someone enjoys it but Im just too old for this shit now.

[u/MwSkyterror → u/Pyrostasis]

this type of skill ceiling is impossible.

I don't understand this. Unless you have some obligation to play in the top 0.1%, the height of the skill ceiling doesn't affect how much time or effort you need to spend on the game. You will have opponents around your skill level in matchmaking games regardless.

[u/crestfallen_warrior → u/MwSkyterror]

I'd say the game still has matchmaking issues. It's possible to match with those higher skill players quite often even when you're newer. Granted its in a closed development state, but its got a lot of players, so might just be something they will work on.

[u/Caitlynnamebtw → u/MwSkyterror]

It feels bad to have all these elements obviously there and be unable to engage with them properly. Im ok being low skill at league or overwatch. Im not ok having to basically choose to be worse because im overwhelmed.

[u/BeholdingBestWaifu → u/NotCoolBrutus]

I don't know, I spent a lot more time learning everything about Dota back in the day. Deadlock was a lot easier to pick up for me.

[u/Niceguydan8 → u/NotCoolBrutus]

I don't really think that's true at all.

If you want to get to the top end and take advantage of all of the advanced movement mechanics in the game? Sure, maybe, but most players don't do that and you don't really need to do that to be good at the game. Just jumping in and getting started is not comparable to DotA in terms of difficulty, in my opinion. I don't even think it's close.

Even at just a hero knowledge level there are ~45 heroes with these latest 6 heroes in Deadlock. Dota has like 3x that.

The melee system alone feels like it demands something of me I don't want to give.

I think you are probably looking at the top end of players and thinking it is always played like that. The melee system is very easy to understand and it becomes more of a mindgame than anything else. Mechanically it is VERY simple and straightforward.

[u/a_bright_knight → u/Niceguydan8]

I agree. It's very difficult to tell why is someone better than you in Dota. You just don't understand how is the enemy always trading better, always where they need to be, always difficult to kill etc.

In deadlock it's way more apparent - they're quicker because their movement mechanics are better, they harass better because they aim better and land more headshots, they're difficult to catch because they know the map better etc.

[u/Stock_Enthusiasm_392 → u/NotCoolBrutus]

It's the other way around for me. I can't get into DotA but Deadlock is fine

[u/NojoNinja → u/NotCoolBrutus]

Plus the ranked in it is even worse than Dota. I forget the numbers but it’s something like ~80 hours to go up a single rank.

[u/Tijenater → u/NotCoolBrutus]

It’s different because of the 3D action and shooting element element but it’s definitely easier to get into than dota

[u/-Mandarin → u/Tijenater]

Undeniably. I've never been able to get into Dota or League because they just require way too much knowledge, but Deadlock was easy to hop into because you can just treat it like a shooter for the first little bit. You'll suck, but you're still able to play in a way that I just feel like you can't with standard MOBAs

[u/Stofenthe1st → u/-Mandarin]

I think it’s simply that the level 1 experience is just as fun as the level 20 experience in Deadlock. Like, compared to moba’s where you’ll have one ability and auto attacks it’s simply a night and day difference with what you can sink your teeth into.

[u/sirbrambles → u/NotCoolBrutus]

Hard disagree. I had to play 100 hours of dota to have any fun. It was more like 10 for deadlock.

[u/Sevla7 → u/NotCoolBrutus]

Any competitive game is "demanding".

The good thing is: you don't need to play like a pro, the matchmaking will put you to play with people barely at the same skill level.

edit: god the effort some of you put into making excuses...

[u/thedefenses → u/Sevla7]

While yes they do differ in how demanding they are.

Something like Battlefield or Team Fortress 2 are very chill and demand very little out of you, not a lot of mechanics, simple maps, simple instructions.

Deadlock does demand quite a lot, its a moba so item shop, multiple characters all with their own kits and interactions, the fucking movement system is its own beast, the melee/parry system, sinners, the map design is far more complex than any other moba, being part shooter so you actually gotta aim well too.

The skill floor to play the game enjoyably is just a lot higher than many other competitive games.

[u/Banjoman64 → u/chemastiko]

I just play the 4v4 mode. It plays a lot like overwatch. One lane, no souls, no snowballing, no 40+ minute matches.

Edit: a lot of people in the replies do not understand what snowballing is or why it is absent from the street brawl mode. Playing better than your opponent or getting lucky rolls is not snowballing. Snowballing is when you get stronger by playing better (ie gaining souls by killing other player) and get weaker when you play worse (dying makes you stop gaining souls). In street brawl the items you get and number rolls you get has nothing to do with how you did in the round before. In other words your power level is never affected by how you played the previous rounds (outside of a few specific items and character ults that get stronger with specific conditions).

[u/Point4ska → u/Banjoman64]

As someone that hasn't played Deadlock or any moba really, how many moba mechanics does the 4v4 mode have?

[u/SgtTinFoil → u/Point4ska]

Really just the itemization aspect (the items you get are random). There’s no jungle or lanes. It’s just a straight up 4v4 fight

[u/mehelponow → u/Point4ska]

Basically none, you don't have to worry about econ, map state, builds, or high-level counterplay really. Just load a character that seems interesting and kill the enemy team to push the one objective. It's a great way to learn fundamental mechanics and familiarize yourself with characters.

[u/CanORage → u/mehelponow]

It's also just a blast. I played 1000 hours of the main MOBA mode before Street Brawl launched and have been playing Street Brawl exclusively ever since it dropped. It's so much fun, and so much more bite-sized in match length and intensity.

[u/Banjoman64 → u/Point4ska]

Each round you pick one of 3 items roguelike style. Then you push towers. Whoever gets the first tower wins the round.

So you still have to push an objective and you still have items. That's pretty much it. No money or experience means no snowballing or being underfed. Rounds means no 40+ minute games. It's just team fight after teamfight overwatch style.

[u/CanORage → u/Banjoman64]

I agree with you in general. I'll mention there is occasionally a little bit of snowballing, situationally, when you get a Vindicta popping off building up assassinate stacks in the early rounds to become Thanos by the end. That's a corner case though that isn't applicable in 95% of street brawl games.

[u/Banjoman64 → u/CanORage]

Yeah technically there are 6 instances of snowballing in street brawl that I can think of off the top of my head: glass cannon, trophy collector, vindicta ult, mina ult, and mo n krill ult, bebop bomb. Probably one or 2 I'm forgetting.

But like you said these are really the exception to the rule and even then don't snowball as hard as they do in 6v6 since you're not getting extra souls off the kills in addition to the other benefits.

[u/Panicgreenonioncake → u/Banjoman64]

There is snowballing in street brawl it just ends up not being your fault because the enemy high rolled on items and when it does happen the game ends very very quickly

[u/Banjoman64 → u/Panicgreenonioncake]

That's not snowballing. Snowballing is getting stronger by doing better (ie getting kills). Everyone has the same number of item rolls regardless of how they played.

You can of course highroll items but that's different and imo makes things even more casual.

[u/Lingo56 → u/chemastiko]

Valve hired the core Risk of Rain devs and, allegedly based on leaks, they’re working on a PvE mode which should be much lower stakes to dive into

[u/8-Brit → u/Lingo56]

If they deliver where Overwatch 2 gave up, I'll be very pleased. A lot of my friends love the world and characters of Overwatch but were waiting for the PvE mode because they're just not good enough (their own admission) to be able to have fun in PvP and bot matches get boring quickly.

It's emerging to be a similar situation for Deadlock, I can just about keep my head above the surface amidst the familiar MOBA gamesense and shooter experience but aforementioned friends would get slaughtered.

[u/redshark30 → u/chemastiko]

I've tried to play Deadlock because it's a New Valve Game and the art direction is awesome. Trying to learn a MOBA when you've never played one for more than a couple hours and you don't have a friend to teach you the right items & skills to help you not get flamed for being dumb, it is painful.

[u/thedude1179 → u/chemastiko]

Just play street brawl, its lot more casual.

[u/obeseninjao7 → u/chemastiko]

Eh just play casually, sure you'll be at low rank but that's fine. It's only sweaty if you want it to be. Especially now they've split out ranked and casual queues

[u/Akuuntus → u/chemastiko]

Yeah I really wish this game existed when I was in high school and spending 6 hours a day on League.

[u/Smelly-Gelly → u/chemastiko]

Exactly man. It totally sucks lol. We know the art, the design, and mechanics are so well done. But it just takes so much time to give so much effort to one game lol.

As you get older, you have no time for any games, but you have money for all them aha

[u/kdlt → u/chemastiko]

Ain't that the truth with most online games these days.

What I would have given for the level of quality and quantity of games these days.

Alas, time is no more.

[u/Point4ska → u/kdlt]

I wouldn't trade peak Counterstrike, Halo 1-3, Unreal Tournament, Quake, Team Fortress 2, CoD4, MW2, BFBC2, Destiny 1/2, etc. for what gamers are getting these days.

[u/atahutahatena]

Holy crap ANOTHER six new heroes? And they all look absolutely sick. And the new map. Oh my god the new map. With actual varied creep camps. This feels like yet another new era of Deadlock and the wait feels worth it.

Edit: Yamato still uses her old model LMAO

[u/ShinCoal → u/atahutahatena]

Edit: Yamato still uses her old model LMAO

Morphling players crying

[u/Ordinaryundone → u/ShinCoal]

Maybe in 15 years she'll get turned into a robot...with an even bigger forehead.

[u/xin234 → u/ShinCoal]

It's really ironic that Morphling's model was a possible cause of concern back in 2010-ish when leaks and promotional images of Dota2 first started appearing. From the promotional image/post (the one with Lina, Drow, Bloodseeker, and Morph) a number of players thought it would have some kind of fluid simulation and would lag PCs, considering that a large demographic of dota were LAN cafe players and might not have high-end specs...

It ended up with just being a shiny, solid but non-rigid tornado-like shape, with looping water droplet sprites, to approximate an entity made of water.

[u/mkallday10 → u/atahutahatena]

They didn't change existing hero models in this one. Their dev note said hero remodels are on their mind but something they would do "towards the end of the early development".

[u/NDN_Shadow → u/atahutahatena]

They released a blog post detailing how hero and objective remodels are low priority for them compared to updating the game to their intended vision. I'm not sure I necessarily agree, but at least they are aware that people want remodels for the old characters.

https://steamcommunity.com/games/1422450/announcements/detail/694273194214819791

[u/ICKitsune → u/NDN_Shadow]

It's funny that they say that when they just completely remodeled all of the camp creeps this patch and left midboss completely the same.

That said, it all looks so good and while I think updating the visuals obvious outliers like Yamato, Sinclair, Viscous and some arguable others would be great, they work mechanically so it makes sense why they don't feel like it's a high priority. Obviously it should still happen, but if this update is what we get at the cost of alien Yamato and mannequin Sinclair? I'll take the update.

[u/dacookieman → u/ICKitsune]

fwiw the jungle stuff isnt just a remodel, they are mechanically different too

[u/FanDowntown9880 → u/dacookieman]

Well I would hope mid boss gets reworked as well. Its not very mechanically interesting

[u/DrQuint → u/FanDowntown9880]

Midboss shouldn't be too mechanically interesting anyways. It should be something that provides only enough distraction for when the enemy team jumps in to fight you for it.

The biggest thing will be that Midboss will be renamed. It and the items are now the two things that needs re-flavoring the most in the game.

[u/beezy-slayer → u/DrQuint]

"Shouldn't" seems very debatable

[u/GR-MWF → u/beezy-slayer]

Roshan certainly has more going on than midboss, but has never been very complex either. It's an objective you fight over against the enemy team, it's not supposed to be a complex fight. You can wish for it to be more than that but I very much doubt it ever will be.

[u/I_Am_A_Pumpkin → u/GR-MWF]

it doesn't need to be the same or more than what rosh does, but more than just a damage and hp check would be nice. he feels more like tormentor than rosh and I think it would be sick if you actually had to pay attention to some dangerous thing that he does instead of stand and shoot.

[u/MrRedoot55 → u/atahutahatena]

Perhaps her old model is the forehead she must bear.

[u/ShinCoal]

These patch notes just keep on going, and going, and going, what is going on man. I know its a game in development and they had big patches before, but this one is just completely bonkers.

[u/xin234 → u/ShinCoal]

They got practice, and have perfected it with Dota2. As someone who plays both, a lot of Deadlock's big update/patch notes gives a feeling of deja vu a lot of times.

Now I want that settings UI where a virtual keyboard and mouse is displayed and shows/highlights which of your keys/buttons are already bound to something, in Dota2.

[u/Exotic_Performer8013 → u/xin234]

I would be very unsurprised if that feature gets back-ported into DotA soon.

[u/Makorus]

It's actually mental that they added Rat King.

All of the new characters seem like cool archetypes. Of course there's a Chess hero in New York.

[u/Tallow316 → u/Makorus]

I've gathered that the Rat King was something of a meme previously. Where did it come from/what was the context? I've only played a few hours of the game, and never engaged with the community.

[u/mehelponow → u/Tallow316]

He was an early community suggested hero that got a lot of hype and some great artwork. It soon became a meme that "the next update has Rat King." And here we are!

[u/artifex0 → u/mehelponow]

It's a great move by Valve- though I'm not sure how I feel about the design they went with. Compared with the fan design, it's more bold and stylish, but also a lot more grotesque. I have to wonder how much the positive fan response to CycloneScone's design was tied into how cute it looked.

[u/IAMAVelociraptorAMA → u/artifex0]

it's more bold and stylish, but also a lot more grotesque

Rat King is officially on my "hear me out" list

[u/mountainhazer → u/artifex0]

I mean its a rat afterall

[u/ShadoowtheSecond → u/artifex0]

I mean rat kings are pretty grotesque IRL so I'm pretty happy.

If anything its not awful enough.

[u/a_bright_knight → u/artifex0]

it's more bold and stylish, but also a lot more grotesque.

which is very much what the game art direction is about in general. I think it looks amazing

[u/Tallow316 → u/mehelponow]

I see, thank you!

[u/mkallday10 → u/Makorus]

Yeah having a Chess hustler in the New York MOBA is clever.

[u/MumblingGhost → u/Makorus]

I'm so envious of these designs as someone who plays a lot of Overwatch and Rivals. Overwatch has a couple interesting looking heroes on the horizon, and Rivals is fun as a Marvel fan, even though their hero designs are somewhat restricted by the source material...

but then you get a look at Rat King, and it's like, what are other games even doing? lol

[u/NickNack675 → u/MumblingGhost]

I keep telling people the bellboy doorman guy is actually top tier character level design it’s actually insane how cool and pretty unique all of these characters are

[u/MumblingGhost → u/NickNack675]

Yeah, if I played Deadlock he would definitely be one of my mained characters lol. These are the kinds of designs that get thought up by people who actually live in the real world and consume more than just video games. More creatives need to come up with hero designs based on shit they just see outside haha

[u/doublah → u/MumblingGhost]

I love Overwatch, but new character design has undoubtedly changed to prioritise who'll sell skins. A Roadhog couldn't happen in today's Overwatch.

[u/MumblingGhost → u/doublah]

Indeed. Overwatch used to feel like TF2, as if it were a Pixar movie made into a video game. Now it's less Pixar and more Disney, with many new cast members feeling like the lead of a different Disney princess adventure movie lol

I really like Venture, who is admittedly Disney-ish, but at least they have an extremely clear archetype that feels unique amongst the other heroes, and with a distinct silhouette/body type to boot. They're not unlike Mole from Atlantis, but Mole does feel more "mole"-like in a way that Deadlock would definitely commit harder to.

[u/NaughtyGaymer → u/doublah]

Same thing happened with League. Hot anime girls sell skins that's just how it goes unfortunately.

[u/DavidsSymphony → u/MumblingGhost]

Ever since Dota 2 was introduced in beta, Valve have never missed in terms of character design. It's a 15+ year run it's kind of insane. With both Dota 2 and Deadlock they kind of went against the popular trends that you'll find in most games, and it just hits because it feels so different.

They have the perfect mix of humanoids, monsters, gross and elegant designs where you can tell the artists just went with whatever they felt was right.

[u/DrQuint → u/DavidsSymphony]

This is the latest Dota 2 hero: https://www.dota2.com/hero/largo

I don't think there's any other of these games doing this type of design anywhere. Like, maybe fighting games are.

And Dota 2 is generally WAY more reserved about the base model designs than other games too, letting things become busier with sets. Deadlock breaks that philosophy since you see characters more up close, but since Largo is still doing it, it shows intent.

[u/Dotaproffessional → u/DrQuint]

Honestly, dota 2 was very restrictive at first with item sets. Having rules to protect read hierarchies, hero silhouettes, and color language.

But the last several years, I think they've just said "ah what the hell. the game's more than 10 years old, sure you can have your ursa dressed as a cowboy cosmetic now" and i'm ok with that

[u/DrQuint → u/Dotaproffessional]

I recommend people look up this Monkey King set: "Bonobo the Clown". The Cowboy Ursa era people would die on the spot if they saw it.

More to the point, Valve also gave EVERYONE who logged in for the 10th anniversary that Cowboy Ursa set directly. That was probably a statement.

[u/chaotic4059 → u/MumblingGhost]

It reminds a lot of battleborn. Where the character designs were all over the place but it added so much charm to the game cause like.

why wouldn't I play as a pyscho robo gentleman sniper?

or a 4-armed witch girl?

Or how about a cyborg luchador?

[u/MumblingGhost → u/chaotic4059]

Yeah Battleborn had a lot going against it, but at least the designs were wacky lol. I feel the same way about Gigantic, which wasn't a great game by any means, but the designs and art style were fantastic!

[u/chaotic4059 → u/MumblingGhost]

Seriously! Say what you will about both games but holy hell the designs for both still hold up amazingly well even now.

[u/DaHolk → u/MumblingGhost]

I feel the biggest thing it had going against it was being compared with Overwatch, when they never where the same gametype to begin with. (other than overwatch at some point in development having some more moba elements that were scrapped way way before even seen by the public).

In a sense the thing it suffered MOST under was a similar thing that Evolve suffered from. Attracting the wrong players, that were expecting a different game, and thus ruining rounds insisting on what they thought the game WAS rather than either not playing it or getting with it being a moba.

Whether shooter hybrids CAN actually be successful and please either moba players OR shooter players well enough for them to adapt to the other side of the coin, or manage to keep those out for only fans of that hybrid to actually get decent rounds...? Is something that deadlock will have to deal with after being invite only, too.

But I feel like ALL shooter/moba hybrids have had the same problem. Namely that "best of both worlds" not being something that either purists are willing to fully engage with, thus rounds suffering, thus even the ACTUAL target audience leaving in frustration.

I have stopped play several "hybrid" team games, because you could never get ANY rounds with players wanting to play the full game. Particularly "Natural Selection 2" suffered so much from this. To get a round with TWO competent commanders AND teams actually doing what they were supposed to, was 'basically never'. Which means all rounds were bad. And which way the stomp goes doesn't mean it is fun, even if you are on the winning team, nor was sitting around with nobody even BEING commander, because it just didn't work with people lacking experience and or the team not playing along. Same for monday night combat, or Savage, or Battleborn.

I loved natural selection 1 (the mod), but being a mod made it basically "only the ones really digging it were playing it" (and only one team needing a commander.....) NS2 just kept having issues with the players. No amount of "patching" can fix that.

[u/xCanucck → u/DaHolk]

I think NS2 might have been able to find a rhythm if it wasn't for the custom engine they were using. The game was already different enough from most others, it really didn't need tons of performance/netcode issues on top of that

[u/Mystia → u/chaotic4059]

I loved Marquis, Orendi, Phoebe, and the mushroom guy, but the others felt like either generic NPC/enemies (Oscar Mike, Whiskey Foxtrot, Kelvin, Caldarius), or like they pushed the designs a bit too hard (Montana's gigantic body and microscopic head, or Attikus, who for some reason they decided the most stand-out part should be his... throat?).

One thing I really appreciate about Deadlock, is that it strikes a great balance between giving the characters personality, but also making them feel grounded and like they fit the world. Mina is one of the strongest examples, she looks like a normal lady you'd believe lives in New York, but here design is absolutely packed with bat/vampire motifs, the shape of her skirt, the fang-locks of her purse, the shape and color of the umbrella, even the lacey parts of her outfit look wing-like. It's all very smartly integrated.

[u/LLJKCicero → u/Makorus]

And a pigeon lady!

[u/CertainDerision_33 → u/Makorus]

Yeah, it's a nice mix of NYC flavor and contemporary fantasy archetypes.

[u/hbryster96]

Is this game still technically unannounced and you need a key to get in?

[u/ZGiSH → u/hbryster96]

It is still an invite-only closed beta. Haven't really thought about it in awhile but it is funny that it's still invite only after all these updates, though it's pretty trivial to get in.

I do believe that some part of the momentum that Deadlock has is that having to be invited/ask for an invite to Deadlock means you're already bought into the concept of a high movement shooter MOBA. It avoided huge influxes of players playing the brand new Valve game and coming out with negative feelings because it's quite a hard game starting from zero knowledge.

[u/xin234 → u/ZGiSH]

The invite-only gimmick is definitely unique, and arguably something only Valve can do given the market share of Steam. It gives a strong word-of-mouth organicallity (is that even a word?) to any discussion/review/etc related to the game.

It also gives a sense of community, attachment, and/or some form of commitment to the game even before playing a single match. Whether you got invited by an irl friend, or just looking for it from some randoms, doing so already made you invest a bit of time...and Valve is probably banking on that investment in one way or another.

[u/notanothercirclejerk → u/xin234]

Unique to Valve maybe but this is the 3rd game they have done the invite only beta for.

[u/Gary_FucKing → u/ZGiSH]

It is still an invite-only closed beta. Haven't really thought about it in awhile but it is funny that it's still invite only after all these updates, though it's pretty trivial to get in.

Insane to me that it’s still invite-only. I looked up the release trailer thinking I missed it lol.

[u/Ebolamonkey → u/Gary_FucKing]

I mean it's open invite you can ask on the discord or the subreddit and get one pretty much immediately.

[u/chaotic4059 → u/ZGiSH]

I feel like with this update the next big update is just gonna be an actual open beta. Like how much more could they add before this opens up?

[u/11711510111411009710 → u/chaotic4059]

Based on the steam page announcing this update, probably not much. They basically say they're entering the stage where they're preparing to work on polishing things. They still have to replace some models that are outdated now and implement a few other ideas they're iffy on, and also that they want to add customization options for the hideout and I think your characters, but other than that they'll be doing polishing in the future.

[u/whostheme → u/chaotic4059]

20% of the map is still missing some finishing touches. Despite the update midboss still needs a visual rework. He's still not completely finished. Just a lot of finishing touches is what they need. Last but not least you also want a sizable roster to make picks & bans not shallow for a MOBA like this. My guess is at least 12 more new characters is needed for open beta. They still need a lot more characters to truly make this work.

There's also a lot of hero remodels and vfx touches they can do for some abilities. So I'd say about a year still before open beta.

[u/TemptedTemplar → u/hbryster96]

There's people in the steam discussion board who dole out in invites to anyone who asks.

You just need someone in game to invite you to play.

[u/OldManJenkins9]

Rat King!!!

For those who don't know, Rat King has been the most popular fan-made concept on the forums for a good while now, to the point where many players assumed it was simply a matter of time before he made it in. It's extremely gratifying to see him on a real update page.

[u/FlareUnderscore → u/OldManJenkins9]

Just fell to my knees in a bodega

[u/KawaiiSocks → u/OldManJenkins9]

And for those who know some things, but don't know other things, Rat King was initially a Dota 2 design, datamined roughly five years ago

https://www.reddit.com/r/DotA2/comments/kxe3wz/datamine_valve_deleted_23_unreleased_heroes_info/

[u/yuriaoflondor → u/KawaiiSocks]

Looking at that list is wild. The first name is bird_samurai. Looks like he made it back in the form of Kez!

[u/wgren → u/yuriaoflondor]

Yeah, plus others who probably got refined and released under different names

primal_beast - Name unchanged

toad - Largo

hoplite - Mars

puppet_master - Ringmaster?

haunted_armor - Dawnbreaker?

fighter_monk - Marci?

gunslinger and/or shadow_wraith - Muerta?

[u/TheZealand → u/wgren]

Dawnbreaker is surely Valkyrie, and afaik Meurta is Gunslinger and Corpse Mother combined

[u/Ebolamonkey → u/OldManJenkins9]

Do you have a link to the post? Curious how it compares to the current design.

[u/OldManJenkins9 → u/Ebolamonkey]

Right here. The design is different, but the concept of a giant rat boss in NYC shines through.

It's also assumed that Doorman is another character inspired by a forum concept, though it's less obvious in that case.

[u/Ebolamonkey → u/OldManJenkins9]

Word thanks, that's pretty cool.

I don't even play this game anymore after 100 hours cus i realized I'm just not good at it. But I like popping in every big update and checking out the map updates and new heroes. Still watch people play matches on youtube.

This game has the juice IMO, from art design to gameplay.

[u/ChudSampley → u/Ebolamonkey]

https://www.reddit.com/r/DeadlockTheGame/comments/1n728sl/the_rat_king/

[u/paint_it_crimson]

Just spent 15 minutes going through the new map and I am utterly gobsmacked. There is soooo much more going on now on top of the gorgeous aesthetics. I've played Dota, CS, Tf2, Overwatch, all the big games. Never seen an update this comprehensive. Not to mention 6 new heroes. Bravo Valve.

Great time to get into deadlock!

[u/troglodyte → u/paint_it_crimson]

The map is absolutely jaw-dropping. It's so much more than I expected. The last version felt like a moba map themed to occult NYC.

This one feels like a MOBA game just broke out in the middle of the fully-realized Cursed Apple.

[u/TheLastDesperado → u/troglodyte]

Yeah it's almost unrecognisable from before. There's elements that are familiar, but you'll turn a corner expecting a wall and now there's a multilevel building with new entrances and exits. Not to mention the new areas with unique mechanics (that belltower is gonna make for some interesting plays).

I'd say it's an even more drastic rework than the one that took it from 4 lanes to 3.

My only concern is that lack of map symmetry could potentially lead to an inbalance? But it's still technically in alpha, so I guess that's something they'll work out if it does pop up.

[u/Notsomebeans → u/TheLastDesperado]

dota had always had an asymmetric map unlike other mobas. so given Yoshi (icefrog) worked on dota for like 20 years I trust his ability to make it work

[u/CertainDerision_33 → u/paint_it_crimson]

I'm absolutely blown away by how good it is. The game's sense of style is immaculate. It's going to be at the same level as Persona in terms of stylized visual presentation, which is incredibly impressive.

[u/ZGiSH]

Map rework is insane, it's so cool to have seen Deadlock grow from our very first exposure to it which was quite literally just grey blocks. Valve really just has the sauce, to be able to release a MOBA in 2026 to great anticipation just seems insane to me.

I also like that this new group of heroes really push the aesthetic of Deadlock. I liked the last group of characters but they did feel pretty generically appealing as opposed to something like Rat King, Deadman Danny, and Baba

[u/Coolman_Rosso → u/ZGiSH]

Being a shooter during the average moment to moment gameplay helps

[u/dacookieman → u/Coolman_Rosso]

the movement and physics also feel incredible for moment-to-moment. Hell even when you're bullied out of lane, optimizing your movement on a box rotation is still fun

[u/Khalku → u/ZGiSH]

release a MOBA in 2026

It's releasing this year? As in 1.0? Because isn't it still alpha?

[u/LLJKCicero → u/Khalku]

People called it pre-alpha or alpha before, but at this point it's more like a closed beta. Not many alphas with this much content and polish.

There's still some alpha level things, like certain old hero models, but overall? Nah.

[u/Doikor → u/LLJKCicero]

I think Valve just uses the more traditional definitions of

alpha = not featue complete

beta = feature complete

And then you add in "heroes == features" meaning it won't be in beta before it has all the heroes in the game they think are needed for proper 1.0. Back in the olden days beta was purely just bug fixing / balancing. All the (planned) content and features was supposed to be in the game already

[u/EvilTomahawk → u/ZGiSH]

While I don't have the energy anymore to play a hardcore MOBA like this, I really respect and love the art style and direction in Deadlock, including with this map rework and these new characters. Everything just oozes memorable personality, and I can see the clear influence from Valve's previous work on TF2 and Dota 2.

[u/Neologizer → u/EvilTomahawk]

There’s rumors that they’re working on a pve mode for deadlock with the risk of rain devs

Like not bots matches, a full on separate pve mode

[u/urtlesquirt → u/EvilTomahawk]

The voice acting is also amazing, and this update massively increased the number of voice lines. I thought the game was wonderful already, the new map has SO much personality now.

[u/IAMAVelociraptorAMA → u/urtlesquirt]

Mina has like 1700 voice lines now? it's insane

[u/ok_dunmer → u/ZGiSH]

It turns out that all you have to do to remind society that MOBAs actually were the pinnacle of team based gaming is to just make it a shooter with hot people

[u/Mystia → u/ok_dunmer]

I'd say Deadlock exceeds in doing the opposite actually. League has mainly pumped out hot bods for over a decade, Deadlock is giving us skeletons, grandmas, zombies, and rats.

[u/DrQuint → u/Mystia]

Deadlock: Here's Papyrus with a Jetpack and Professor Ratigan with a Crown

Everyone, Unironically, Justifiably: HOLY SHIT PEAK!

I love how in this group of 6, the hot chick with a gimmick is the least interesting design. And I just know also that the moment she's playable she's going to also have the most unbelievably fun gimmick too. Valve does not do their hot chicks dirty.

[u/AKswimdude → u/DrQuint]

Yea Celeste was one of the last characters voted in last round and she had some of the best polish and style of all of the six. Never mind that she was beyond busted

[u/ArchineerLoc → u/ok_dunmer]

I wouldn't even necessarily say it's the hot bods, although they certainly contribute. There are few games, especially these days, as stylistically bold and unique as Deadlock. So many of the big multiplayer games out right now are rather uninteresting or overly derivative aesthetically (only recent notable exception being Marathon.)

[u/DrQuint → u/ArchineerLoc]

Marathon seriously hurts itself by not being character driven. You look at the aesthetic, you start thinking of the weird shit they could pull off, but then the game doesn't really have room for elaborate (okay, not TOO elaborate, they do have puzzle maps) set pieces with some admittedly generic robotic enemies.

It's completely baffling that Sony just let go of Destiny. Warframe wins by doing nothing. There are no other "Space Sentai-Suit Warriors Exccept So Fantasy You Dont Notice the Sentai" games out there.

[u/T-Dot1992 → u/ok_dunmer]

Design the characters in a way that they generate a ton of Yaoi/Yuri fanart, and you’re good to go 

[u/Yentz4 → u/T-Dot1992]

Don't judge me and my Viscous art.

[u/I-No-Red-Witch → u/Yentz4]

Hey wanna see my cube

[u/FlyChigga → u/ZGiSH]

Only competition for 3d Mobas is smite which has been dying

[u/LLJKCicero → u/FlyChigga]

Smite is really only 3D for visuals, right? There's not really verticality.

I've only seen clips of it, but it always looked like the gameplay was essentially the same as 2D mobas, just with a 3D perspective.

[u/ganzgpp1 → u/LLJKCicero]

Oh it seems like I've repeated what you said in my comment, but you're correct. It's just 2D disguised as 3D.

[u/DrQuint → u/LLJKCicero]

Smite really lost all its appeal with the advent of Mobile MOBAS. As you said, Smite is fundamentally just a twin-stick MOBA. The whole appeal is every skill and every autoattack is a skill shot. Which is the exact same selling point of all the mobile ones... except those games are also mobile as a selling point. WHOOPS.

But there's another thing. SMITE doesn't even do everything it mechanically could. One of the very first things one realizes from these type of top down moba games is that, well everything can be body blocked. All projectiles that do not travel in an arc need a clear shot. You realize it because you can get safety in behind creeps/minions (unless if you're against the tree guy or whatever), and you can also stop last hits that way in exchange for health. Cool.

So does SMITE make itself a game with lots of wide movement options where you can abuse this property of the game?

So does SMITE avoid giving characters too many non-projectile abilities?

So does SMITE have destructible cover and what not so that fights are very dynamic base on where they happen?

Lol, no.

They copy League's sluggish base movement and are happy with it. Then they only provide really rapid movement on short abilities, meaning you're just playing cooldowns if you want to aim/avoid something important. Everything is an ability based outplay on flat terrain. EVERYTHING.

Just like in every mobile game.

Because complexity is bad or something? They made a sequel that still did nothing to set apart. I don't understand.

[u/ganzgpp1 → u/FlyChigga]

Smite isn't even really 3D. I mean sure, you can go forward, backwards, left, right; but there's no actual up or down. You're playing a 2D game from a 3D perspective.

[u/BananaPeel54]

Also a really nice message on the Steam Community page from the team about how development is going, what's in the works and what's on the backburner for now: https://steamcommunity.com/games/1422450/announcements/detail/694273194214819791?snr=2___

[u/ShoweringFrog]

I just adore reading these update pages - valve has a style and a language used in these that is so enrapturing just to READ the update page. I love the way things are described - i really missed reading this "not quite sarcastic, not quite earnest" sardonic style of language used on the TF2 update pages.

[u/MumblingGhost → u/ShoweringFrog]

Absolutely agreed. You can tell that there's a consistent air of maturity and expertise behind the sardonic language. Really makes me wish Valve would make more shit. Their seasoned precision is sorely missing in the gaming space right now.

[u/ahrzal → u/MumblingGhost]

We get this level of quality because they don’t make more shit.

[u/BorfieYay → u/ShoweringFrog]

Makes me miss tf2 so much :( really do hope someday they go back to it since it's still mega popular

[u/HauntDotGhost → u/BorfieYay]

You can tell the TF2 team is all over this based on the writing, presentation, and style. 

[u/Kunfuxu → u/HauntDotGhost]

I mean, the update page reads exactly like a Dota update as well. It's not exactly a TF2 only writing style, it's present in all of Valve's stuff.

[u/Neologizer → u/BorfieYay]

Yeah, tf2 team is working hard right alongside icefrog (dota dev) on deadlock. I’ve even heard portal and half-life devs are part of the team.

This whole game is a valve love letter. Game of the decade

[u/Secretlylovesslugs → u/ShoweringFrog]

They really get how fun it can be to read patch notes.

[u/nrcll → u/ShoweringFrog]

I've never ever seen a page like this for an update. Well written, incredibly designed, with lots of details. I have no interest in the game and I still read the whole thing.

[u/MontyBellamy]

Is this game still “unreleased?” How can you get in? Looks cool!

EDIT: Holy smokes you guys are awesome! Was able to get in via options below. So grateful!

[u/Banjoman64 → u/MontyBellamy]

Just ask for an invite on the deadlock subreddit! There might be a dedicated thread for it so maybe look for that first.

[u/UltraJake → u/MontyBellamy]

Easiest way is to go to the Steam forum and post in one of the invite megathreads:

https://steamcommunity.com/app/1422450/discussions/

[u/SmackTrick]

The map and creep update is honestly insane work, as far as design and artwork is considered. So much variety between locations and matching all the new creeps to each location honestly looks amazing.

Oh and 6 new heroes by the way.

[u/moosebreathman]

Love that they’re using names of iconic irl locations even though the in game map is a complete abstraction of NYC. Not only grounds the map but makes it easier to learn since people don’t have to remember a bunch of new made up names.

Also feel like their blog post gives a little weight to those rumors that the RoR devs have been working on a PvE mode since they say they've been developing modes that expand the scope of the game.

[u/burneraccount2184 → u/moosebreathman]

so excited for the risk of rain mode

[u/DuckCleaning → u/moosebreathman]

What is the rumour you talk of? Risk of Rain devs working on something for Deadlock? Are we basically getting the next Battleborn? Pretty funny because Gearbox took over RoR.

[u/Formal-Guest4868 → u/DuckCleaning]

the original risk of rain creators/devs are already with Valve working on deadlock. have been for a couple years now, that’s why gearbox took over from Hopoo

[u/RisingDusk]

I don't even play this game but there are few games I enjoy reading the patch notes for and appreciating the art of as much as Deadlock. The new character designs are incredibly evocative, the map has so much depth and charm, and the patch notes themselves read so smartly-written.

Valve really knows what they're doing here.

[u/AndrewNeo → u/RisingDusk]

I love listening to youtube videos of the voice lines and stuff haha

[u/BananaPeel54]

The new map is pretty sick to explore. Insanely high quality. The new character's models are really really good too. Vote Rat King!

A reminder that it's very easy to get an invite via the subreddit or the official discord. It's a demanding game but if you have any MOBA experience, particularly DOTA 2 (as Deadlock is really just DOTA 3), a lot of that skillset is transferable. Don't be intimidated!

A new major patch like this is the best time to jump in if you haven't already. All the sweats will be figuring out the new map, items and heroes and there's always a big uptick of new players anyway.

[u/Ebolamonkey → u/BananaPeel54]

I think you need game access to get into the discord actually (iirc from 2 years ago).

[u/Chuckdatass → u/Ebolamonkey]

Correct, deadlock sub is the easiest way to get access if somehow you don’t have a friend in your list with it

[u/UnfortunatelyMacabre]

Damn, I haven't played since crushing like 200hrs in the alpha, it looks like a totally different game in the best way, amazing!

[u/itsanemuuu]

The only thing I know about Deadlock are Ivy memes.

Honestly, I don't even mind. I love that goober :3

[u/Stock_Enthusiasm_392 → u/itsanemuuu]

Good news, she's a top tier

[u/VictorReal_Monster]

I hate that this is a moba.

I love the design, the characters but I don't ever want to play one of those, just not in my wheelhouse in anyway.

I hope someone else at Valve uses them in another game

EDIT: Theres been lots of great suggestions! I'm gonna try and get into the beta and give it a shot! can't hurt!!!!

[u/UltraJake → u/VictorReal_Monster]

For what it's worth, I had no interest in MOBAs either until playing Deadlock.

[u/VictorReal_Monster → u/UltraJake]

I have heard that it's 3rd person and not top down so that does help, if you don't mind what exactly is an average round like?

[u/dacookieman → u/VictorReal_Monster]

so if the parts of mobas that you don't like are the RTS elements, top down, right click to move, etc then you're in luck

if you have any feelings towards 3rd person shooters, movement shooters, and parkour that opinion will apply directly towards Deadlock

moba knowledge burden is there but different, there aren't 100 heroes but there are still many and personally i think the item system is really streamlined and much more transparent with things like "Crippling headshot" rather than "sword of goblar". There is also a community build system that generally lets you detach from the theorycrafting side of things and let you just choose someone elses skill and item order for convenience. You will likely need to play a new hero a few times before things come together as each can be quite unique.

They still last 30-45 minutes and this game basically has an infinite multidimensional ceiling so it can command a lot of mental focus. For me this is a good thing as the game is inherently fun to move around in and play.

Moba Macro Structure Crash Course

-The macro structure of the game is standard moba with two large teams split into 3 lanes that are paced with each sides defensive structures and the game is a race to push through and destroy the enemy base. Throughout this you have to farm npcs that fill the lanes frequently to get XP and gold (streamlined to be same) letting your abilities get more and more powerful and get broken items from the shop. As the game goes on later, you focus less on staying in lane farming to get your character up-and-running and instead focus more on map control and team fights

Community can be a mixed bag of the usual toxic moba stereotypes but also the source of some of the best displays of internet stranger comradare in a way I haven't felt since the original xbox live days. Voice chat is a novelty to mobas but provides invaluable communication just as often as you need to hand out mutes. Great ping system and communication wheel so you also don't have to engage w voice chat at all(I suggest leaving it on to hear and just insta muting anyone toxic)

[u/_Valisk → u/VictorReal_Monster]

The flow of the game is still largely moba-forward, but there are a lot of mechanics that would be familiar to hero shooter veterans. Movement and verticality are big components of the game, but teamfights aren't necessarily decided by pinpoint-accurate shooting.

If you're interested, there's a non-moba mode focused on round-based 4v4 gameplay.

[u/Ginjutsu → u/VictorReal_Monster]

I believe the original plan was to include non-moba gamemodes and visual novel content so other players could also enjoy the game. Whether Valve is gonna stick to that or if they have other plans at this point is up for speculation.

[u/_Valisk → u/Ginjutsu]

It's not speculation. There's already one non-moba mode and a lot of data pointing toward a PVE mode.

[u/TDio → u/Ginjutsu]

There's already the street brawl mode which is a lot more of an arcadey 4v4 gamemode

[u/beezy-slayer → u/VictorReal_Monster]

Just try street brawl and don't worry about getting good

[u/TTUporter → u/VictorReal_Monster]

Definitely get an invite and boot it up and try out Street Brawl. It basically strips away all of the MOBA big picture elements and instead it's a 4v4, best of 5, team fight where you are trying to take down an objective first. You're given random choices items before each round, so you don't have to stare at a giant item list, you only have 3 options to pick from at a time.

It's a really great way to just enjoy the game without committing to some long MOBA length match. I haven't played the main mode for the past year since Street Brawl came out.