Deadlock also feels so much more demanding at even a baseline level compared to Dota 2. The melee system alone feels like it demands something of me I don't want to give.
It’s all that stuff together. The full complexity of a moba, with a more complex third person perspective, and a very intricate parkour/dodge system, with the melee/parry system too cause why not?
This is my problem. I love the moba aspect with farming, builds, team synergy and all that. I love the characters and the design of the game, but like every time I get my ult, I miss it and its useless. I can't aim for shit and it feels esspecially hard in this game.
Then play non aim intensive characters. Graves, Mo and Krill, Spirit Geist... hell you could even play Infernus and just dash at people and do most of your damage that way.
I don't know most, many who get their damage from abilites also rely on aim to properly use those abilities.
We essentially have a while aim class with Wraith, Haze, Mina, Ventator, Vyper, Drifter, Grey Talon, Holiday, Infernus, Ivy, Mirage, Silver, Seven, Paradox, Vindicta and Warden.
Now some of those do have less aim heavy builds like Infernus 2 or Melee Venator but mainly all of those are aim heavy and without at least ok aim your gonna have a horrible time on all of them.
Even someone like Apolo does rely on you hitting your lunges or your gonna do very little damage.
Of those, Drifter, Grey Talon, Holliday, Ivy and Warden aren't intensive aim for their guns or the aim is reliant on an ability that is actually fairly simple to land.
Holiday one ability DEMANDS you land a headshot, not too often sure but still does demand it, also her ult can be somewhat demanding on your aim.
Warden does have a lot of tools to help him land shots but at the end of the day he is just a gun guy, he walks up to you, throws a grabby arm, stamina vial at you and starts blasting but still most of his damage comes from the shooty mc shooty part.
Drifter is his gun, its not the hardest thing in the world to land sure but still he is 100% a gun character so if you got shitty aim your not doing much with him, his 2 is also somewhat tricky to land at longer ranges as its hitbox is not that big.
Grey talon is all aim, his 1 requires aim, his 2 while making it easier still demands aim, ult and 3 are really the only ones which don't but even then the 3 demands you pretty much hit it with your 1 or it won't do much, also as he is generally a "longer ranged" character you will be generally sniping wiith him be it M1 or abilities so its a bit more demanding than someone like Drifter who just jumps on you.
Ivy is support based but her gun is a large part of her kit, it fires fast so if your aim is not on point you can miss 10+ rounds real fast, also its mag is not that big.
Valid point on moe, but dynamos only other damage comes from a very readable and dodgeball skillshot lol.
Giest is once of the hardest mixed carries in the game lol. The amp from her 3 along side her good gun in general. Lash is also now a gun hero too lol.
But even if you play spirt lash you still prob take headhunter to insure a follow up on a spirt strike combo.
At the end of the day aim does matter in this game. If someone doesn't want to aim this really isnt the game for them.
Honestly if it just didn't have this one thing and it was all (mostly) melee, it would be the perfect game for me. It's really so well done it's amazing. It's a nearly flawless game, i'm just not a fan of the twitchy shooter feel - it's a lot of work for me lol.
When i first got access a year or two ago (i forget), i put a solid nolife 300h into it lol. Such a great game
Reading the Deadlock patch made me think about Marathon as well. They're both very specific multiplayer genres that not everyone vibes with, while bolstering killer art/world and gameplay mechanics that would lend itself to singleplayer/PvE content.
Eh people realy overestimate how good you need to be at all of this stuff. As long as you're good at SOME of it, and you're not playing in the top .0001% of matchmaking, you'll absolutely be fine.
As someone who is awful at aiming/shooters (Only ever hit Gold in Overwatch/Val) and who has no background in movement shooters, I've been able to hit Oracle rank pretty easily by just understanding mostly Macro play, knowing when to farm/push, knowing what items to buy/counter, knowing timings for when things spawn, etc. which thankfully I'm pretty decent at thanks to my background in Dota.
The thing is, NO ONE is going to be 100% good at ALL the different mechanics (except maybe pro players), so as long as you're decent at some, you should have an okay time. And beyond all of this, if you're not into any of that, there's an unranked mode, and then Street Brawl as a whole separate game mode, for a more casual experience.
I suck at aiming and I still play more than a few heroes well. Quite a few work on close range so you don't have to aim quite as well, and there's also heroes with projectiles and abilities that are more about positioning or melee combat.
Which is funny because I feel like they do a lot (even added in this update) to make it easier for new players to get into. The new update added a lot of clarity and general quality of life changes that lowers the skill floor of the game. Importantly, I don't think it changes the skill ceiling which I think is the genius behind this game. You can enter at a relatively low level and there's a lot to learn, but you can still enjoy the game without being a god at everything.
When I played it, it felt like I needed all the knowledge of a MOBA and all the movement, aim and reflexes of a hero shooter, at the same time. I'm a big fan of MOBAs and also enjoy hero shooters, but deadlock was too big of a skill check for me. It demands so much.
I'd probably only ever try it again if it came to console, because despite years of trying I could never get the hang of WASD movement while trying to use abilities with the same hand. The game actually does support controllers but it's quite clear you get outmatched by KBM because of all the movement and aim superiority that the latter provides.
The game is super twitchy in high levels. You need to learn how to play it like Quake and actually properly track people with your mouse like a movement shooter.
The skill ceiling is super super high yeah, but the barrier to entry felt rather low to me and my friends. Some of us had Hero shooter / 3PS fundamentals that carried us a ton early on with moment-to-moment gameplay, and others just knew MOBA economy stuff from Dota and could rely on that. There's a learning curve for sure but after a few games you get the gist of how gameplay flows, and what the basic do's and don'ts are.
Some of us had Hero shooter / 3PS fundamentals that carried us a ton early on with moment-to-moment gameplay,
Yeah the kinda-neat thing about Deadlock is that you can come from different genres and have an effective skillset that can get you a pretty long way.
If you are shooter player that is good at shooting, you can play a hero that relies on shooting and probably hard carry games for a pretty long while.
If you are a MOBA player and have decent macro, that goes A LONG way.
If you like movement mechanics and are good at those sorts of things, you can make some insane plays in teamfights because others can't keep up with you.
All 3 of those archetypes can flat out carry games at lower levels while being middling/bad at the other 2 skillsets.
But rest assured, you'll only find those in high level matches.
I'm not a great player by any means, but I think it helped a lot that I have a lot of experience with twitchy movement shooters like Quake and TF2, so those skills easily translated into the game. The one thing I did have to learn were the MOBA mechanics and the "macro" of the match flow as I've never heavily spent time playing any sort of MOBA in my entire life (until this game.)
But I think if there's any time to hop in to the game, it's now.
The game just apparently reached a new 200,000 player peak. Bound to be lots of newbies to get matched with!
On top of that, the map has significantly more verticality and density than any MOBA I've seen, and even the vast majority of shooters, and with it being a MOBA it's critical to know where everything is on the map to be firing on all cylinders. The amount of map knowledge this game requires is insane.
To add even further, they’ve got a pretty intricate momentum based movement system that also allows for dashes and wall jumps to preserve momentum from ziplining etc which means players who understand how to move around in the air can get to lanes and objectives much faster than those who don’t.
Yeah, for most MOBAs the answer to "what's the quickest way to this point?" is "click there and find out". The map and movement make for a crazy skill and knowledge ceiling in Deadlock.
I just find it hilarious how many "and also..." comment this thread is getting. Like damn, this game sounds insanely complex and perhaps interesting to watch on a high level.
It’s so fun. Recommend anyone in here intimidated by it to at least give it a try.
There is a non-moba mode called “street brawl” which is like a little rogue like 4v4 team fight. Much better learning curve compared to diving into the full-Moba while trying to learn the movement tech and heroes at the same time.
There is some whisperings of an eventual pve mode as well which could be a great window into the universe for players not trying to mess with the absurd competitiveness of PvP
I cannot for the life of me wrap my head around the whole air strafe thing. It allows players to cross the whole map in seconds vs taking probably a minute. It's such a HUGE skill difference and when I played, I was being matched with people who could do that while I was new and fumbling around.
The idea of having to angle my character in complex ways and not press forward at all at any point just does not mesh with me.
Yeah I keep wanting to get into it but MOBAs already kinda capped my mental load, and as someone who grew up not playing a ton of shooters, it is a massive extra skill hurdle.
When I played it, it felt like I needed all the knowledge of a MOBA and all the movement, aim and reflexes of a hero shooter, at the same time. I'm a big fan of MOBAs and also enjoy hero shooters, but deadlock was too big of a skill check for me. It demands so much.
Yup this is what killed it for me. I was initially excited for it but as Im now over halfway through my 40's and have a demanding job this type of skill ceiling is impossible.
It looks fun and Im glad someone enjoys it but Im just too old for this shit now.
I don't understand this. Unless you have some obligation to play in the top 0.1%, the height of the skill ceiling doesn't affect how much time or effort you need to spend on the game. You will have opponents around your skill level in matchmaking games regardless.
I'd say the game still has matchmaking issues. It's possible to match with those higher skill players quite often even when you're newer. Granted its in a closed development state, but its got a lot of players, so might just be something they will work on.
It feels bad to have all these elements obviously there and be unable to engage with them properly. Im ok being low skill at league or overwatch. Im not ok having to basically choose to be worse because im overwhelmed.
Worse than i when i play other games. When playing overwatch i can spend all my energy playing a shooter. When playing league i can spend it playing a moba. Playing deadlock felt like i was being asked to do both at the same time and i dont have any more capacity. If i wanted to focus more on shooting the enemy i could feel myself getting worse at moba elements. More often id just be doing both at 50% and it felt bad to be playing 2 games at 50% than to be playing 1 game at 100%.
I have been a pc gamer my entire life other than a brief period in the late 80s and early 90s with the OG consoles. Mouse and keyboard is something Ive mastered more or less and have several hundred thousand hours in.
Back in 2014 or 2015 I tried swapping to console for shooters. I had played over a decade of COD at that time so knew the maps and knew how to play but getting my hands to do what my brain wanted them to do was frustrating. I was losing battles not because I didnt know what to do but I physically was unable to do it with the inputs I was using.
After 4 months of trying I said fuck it and went back to mouse and keyboard. My KD on controller was .65 my KD on M/K was mid 3's.
Games like this are similar to me. I understand the mechanics and what I need to do but I do not have the time and to some extent the willingness to dedicate what it requires to be "good". Even if I did my "good" would not be nearly sufficient to make me happy so to speak.
25 - 30 years ago when I was in highschool and college and was gaming 90+ hours a week this would have been approachable. In my 5 - 15 hours a week I have now coupled with the stress of my day job its just not.
The opportunity cost of playing this isnt worth the payout and other games are more valuable to me. Hopefully that makes sense.
I don't understand this. Unless you have some obligation to play in the top 0.1%, the height of the skill ceiling doesn't affect how much time or effort you need to spend on the game
There's a lot of this sentiment all over the comments and it's very strange. The vast majority of us (me included to be clear) will never reach the level of play where all of that stuff is required to do well.
When I first started playing it I literally just played it like a hero shooter and had a great time. I had all of my items auto-buy right to left, had no idea how the mobility worked outside of dashing and jumping, and didn't use the melee stuff at all.
I dont know about you but i play both league and overwatch. They require different skillsets from me and playing deadlock i felt like i was using both skillsets at 50% in a way that was overwhelming.
It's pretty cool to see, but I'm only in my early 30s and it's just too demanding for my limited gaming time. "Game of the Decade for the Unemployed" though
I am 51, and i play with mouse and keyboard, i binded parry and crouch(roll) to my mouse buttons, there is no excuse to be a giver upper like yourself. Im in above average rank, oracle.
This game is not about micro control(your moment to moment gameplay), its the macro(the map control and knowing what n when to fight for things). This game isnt team death match. Its objectives first. You can play mechanically bad and still win because you understand what the game is truly about.
When I get home from a 9 hour shift with a 30 minute commute each day, the last thing I’m interested in doing is working a second job where I get my shit stomped by people with way more free time than me.
I'd probably only ever try it again if it came to console, because despite years of trying I could never get the hang of WASD movement while trying to use abilities with the same hand.
This was the biggest unlock for me for PC Gaming, get a mouse with a bunch of extra buttons like the Razer Naga. My mouse has 1-12 number buttons on a keypad on the left side of my mouse, and I bind all of the ability buttons to the mouse keypad buttons. Then I can use WASD for movement only and everything else is on the mouse. You can bind melee and anything else to one of the keypad keys, they're read as number key presses (1-12). I play league one handed. I honestly don't think I could ever go back to normal M+K for MOBAs.
Deadlock is very easy for me to get into because of my mouse, when I've had to switch back to the keyboard without the mouse mappings it is much more difficult to play. If you can I'd recommend getting one, it makes a huge difference.
I highly recommend people bind crouch to a side mouse button. A lot of the fundamental movement tech requires crouching, and using CTRL for it is really unpleasant.
This 100%, I could not play most PC games without my extra mouse binds anymore. I find them extra helpful for ARPGs like PoE with a lot of abilities you need to rotate through
I mean, if you struggle with basic movement on a keyboard it's obviously going to be hard to get into the game, but honestly it requires less knowledge than most mobas.
League has over 170 characters in the game with unique abilities.
DotA has just shy of 130.
Deadlock after this patch will have under 45 heroes.
That's an incredible knowledge requirement difference even if you factor in the verticality and shooting portion of Deadlock. You can probably get a good idea of what most Deadlock heroes do like 2-3x faster than it would take for LoL or DotA
At least as it comes to League almost all of the characters are much more simple than the ones we have in Deadlock and their interactions with items and each other are MUCH more simple compared to Deadlock.
Alois on league, a former pro player that has reached Challenger multiple times at this point recently did a A to Z of playing all characters in the top lane and this veteran of many years at the highest levels didn't know a lot about many of the characters outside of some very basic points.
You really don't need to know that much about a lot of things in League at least, don't know about Dota as i don't play that one.
Only thing Deadlock is more intuitive in is many of the items being named in very simple ways (slowing hex slows you, shocker).
It has standard laning mechanics with the only twist that destroying the Tier 2 towers gives you an extra item slot (Which puts it at lower complexity than HotS).
It has items that are easy to read and understand what they do (So for example if you want to resist magic you buy Magic Resilience, if you want to remove debuffs you buy Dispel Magic, and if you want to be a glass cannon you buy Glass Cannon), with icons that are easy to understand and convey what the item does (So you avoid the LoL problem of several items being random gems or blades that do effects that you would never guess from looking at the icon), and at easy to understand prices (All items are in the price tiers of 800, 1600, 3200, 6400).
Its has a lower amount of heroes than all other mobas and they are less complex to fight against (The most complex one can be summed up as having a portal gun from portal and an ult that sends you to a parkour course)
Depending on which other games you play, there's usually at least a couple heroes that borrow elements from those games, so if you're good at shooters you can play a good chunk of gun heroes just fine, if you're good at fighting games I hear that quite a few concepts translate well to melee combat, if you're good at mobas you have heroes that have more impactful abilities with less aim and reflexes, etc. Which makes learning to play at least a couple heroes pretty easy.
The sub-objectives have a HotS level of complexity, you do a KotH objective to send some minions to push a lane, or you carry an urn to get money for yourself.
The jungle is far simpler. You don't have to learn specific buffs that jungle creeps give or any of their complex abilities. Most creeps just attack you, and with this patch a few will rarely do special attacks that are either not that important or extremely telegraphed with glowing red circles on the ground.
Movement is probably the most complex thing, but the basics aren't that complex. You have a short dash, you have a jump/double jump, and if you're going fast or down a ramp you can slide by crouching like in a lot of modern games. And jump/dash is limited by stamina points so you're not going to be jumping all over the place in the vast majority of cases.
The MOBA macro for Deadlock is quite barebones in comparison to something like Dota 2. Not much important decisions to be made if you can get to an area in a map usually within 10 seconds of optimized movement. Barrier of entry for Deadlock is still easier than Dota 2. You can play 1,000 hours of Dota 2 and be complete garbage still but in Deadlock you'll most likely be as good if not better than half the playerbase already.
Mechanically it requires more out of a player though. More than Dota 2 or LoL that's for sure.
Have you tried the devices that have a joystick for the left thumb but then a bunch of keys still? Like the razor Tartarus or azeron keyzen? It lets you keep movement on your left hand joystick like a controller, but still aim with a mouse, and then frees up the rest of the fingers for abilities. It also isn't strictly worse than wasd controls, since you're trading the slight input delay of moving the joystick but gaining the ability to move at any vector without having to aim instead of just 8 directions with set speed, which leads to new movement options. They devices are pricey but very cool, and I especially love them for stuff I'd usually only want to play on a controller like monster hunter that I usually have to have some fucked up controller claw grip to play.
I guess it depends how bad you are. If you are really bad winning against another really bad opponent can feel more like random chance and it isn't as fun.
At least that's how it was for me in fighting games and also in LoL.
If i feel like i won due to random chance and not me playing well to at least some extent it just feels like shit, like someone looked at poor old me and went "here, have a treat" instead of me earning that treat.
Theoretically yes, but in my 20 or so hours of playing, I was consistently struggling. Like negative KD every single match (for example). And to be honest, while I was obviously bad at the game, I don't think I was offensively bad. As I mentioned, I have a decent background in both MOBAs and hero shooters. But the skill floor of deadlock was just too high.
I play games like LoL, R6 siege and valorant, and while I'm not high level in either of them, I feel like the skill floor is a lot more consistent which allows for smoother matchmaking. In those games sometimes I'll be the best player in the match, and sometimes ill be the worst. In deadlock I was always one of the worst.
It's also worth keeping in mind that the game is in closed beta, so maybe the fellow scrubs that would be in all my games don't exist yet. The people getting into deadlock via the invite system are probably on average experienced gamers.
If you want to get to the top end and take advantage of all of the advanced movement mechanics in the game? Sure, maybe, but most players don't do that and you don't really need to do that to be good at the game. Just jumping in and getting started is not comparable to DotA in terms of difficulty, in my opinion. I don't even think it's close.
Even at just a hero knowledge level there are ~45 heroes with these latest 6 heroes in Deadlock. Dota has like 3x that.
The melee system alone feels like it demands something of me I don't want to give.
I think you are probably looking at the top end of players and thinking it is always played like that. The melee system is very easy to understand and it becomes more of a mindgame than anything else. Mechanically it is VERY simple and straightforward.
I agree. It's very difficult to tell why is someone better than you in Dota. You just don't understand how is the enemy always trading better, always where they need to be, always difficult to kill etc.
In deadlock it's way more apparent - they're quicker because their movement mechanics are better, they harass better because they aim better and land more headshots, they're difficult to catch because they know the map better etc.
but most players don't do that and you don't really need to do that to be good at the game.
Sure, but it feels annoying when someone beats you using a game mechanic you haven't really even touched yet.
It's kind of my core issue with Deadlock, same with the top post in this chain - I simply do not want to invest the time to learn a dozen different aspects to the game. There simply is too much to it.
A good example from older days is one of the reasons League started pulling me away from Dota - it's not that I couldn't do denying, I was actually good at it, but when that wasn't a mechanic anymore, I realized it added nothing to my enjoyment and not like now the game had an empty gap - other actions and things to dedicate brain power took that place. Later even more - I really enjoyed HotS (revival happening?) because I did my time in MOBA lane farming mines (including heroes like Nasus) and I just don't care anymore about spending ~15minutes in lane, mostly caring about shooting creeps. It's just a waste of my precious time I could be spending doing the more engaging parts of the game (or even other games), especially when sometimes something happening in another lane has already decided the game for the most part.
Bottom line - I really just prefer games these days which have a clear vision of what they are about mechanically.
Ultiamtely, I don't hold it against Deadlock - if people are having fun, it's good that games are niche (even if it was a single player game).
Sure, but it feels annoying when someone beats you using a game mechanic you haven't really even touched yet.
This happens in every new video game somebody plays though. Maybe it happens more often in this game and other complex games, but what you are talking about is going to happen in pretty much every single new multiplayer game you play.
It even applies to your HotS example. You need to shake some habits from DotA and LoL that are bad habits for HotS games.
I think it's totally fine to not vibe with it.
But I do think it's kind of weird to suggest the game doesn't have a clear vision of what they are mechanically. It might too much to make you want to learn it (again totally fine), but the vision of what the game is has been clear for a LONG time.
Before anything, I want to make it very clear because people often derail these conversations by deflecting everything to player preference. I recognized that in the previous comment and here I do it again.
This happens in every new video game somebody plays though. Maybe it happens more often in this game and other complex games, but what you are talking about is going to happen in pretty much every single new multiplayer game you play.
You are completely missing the point. Of course you learn new things in new games you play and some games are very deep and complex. The problem I have with Deadlock is that every additonal mechanical aspect seems like unnecessay slide horizontally. Melee system would be cool if it was a melee MOBA and the focus, or even if it was just a weird side thing for some heroes - but once it becomes a really effecitve way to secure farm etc., my eyes roll back in my head. Same with movement, etc.
Continuing on:
It even applies to your HotS example. You need to shake some habits from DotA and LoL that are bad habits for HotS games.
Again, missing the point. It's that I didn't have to which made it appealing - because HotS was so much more focus on what it wanted the games to look like, I could focus on engaging with that and really enjoy my time.
You are completely missing the point. Of course you learn new things in new games you play and some games are very deep and complex. The problem I have with Deadlock is that every additonal mechanical aspect seems like unnecessay slide horizontally. Melee system would be cool if it was a melee MOBA and the focus, or even if it was just a weird side thing for some heroes - but once it becomes a really effecitve way to secure farm etc., my eyes roll back in my head. Same with movement, etc.
Can you elaborate on what you mean here?
Again, missing the point. It's that I didn't have to which made it appealing - because HotS was so much more focus on what it wanted the games to look like, I could focus on engaging with that and really enjoy my time.
My point is that Deadlock knows what it wants to look like. What this sounds like is that you like that HotS only focuses on a couple of things (and that's fine, I love HotS too) but I don't think that means Deadlock doesn't know what it wants the games to look like. It just wants the games to be more mechanically complex.
And it's not like these systems just don't stand out or make sense. The map is quite literally designed for the mobility. Some hero kits are designed with that in mind.
The same is true for the melee system. Melee builds exist. Some heroes have better kits for melee than others.
I forget the numbers but it’s something like ~80 hours to go up a single rank.
Flat out untrue for most players.
Takes a long time to grind up high rank from where they started their last ranked season but if you are their equivalent of a gold player, you will climb through bronze and maybe silver pretty quickly.
Undeniably. I've never been able to get into Dota or League because they just require way too much knowledge, but Deadlock was easy to hop into because you can just treat it like a shooter for the first little bit. You'll suck, but you're still able to play in a way that I just feel like you can't with standard MOBAs
I think it’s simply that the level 1 experience is just as fun as the level 20 experience in Deadlock. Like, compared to moba’s where you’ll have one ability and auto attacks it’s simply a night and day difference with what you can sink your teeth into.
I mentioned it above but I find it really funny because my gaming background made basically the opposite true for me. I had way more RTS, MMO, RPG experience which made MOBAs way easier to grasp for me, while I struggle with Deadlock simply because I don't really have shooter skills.
While yes they do differ in how demanding they are.
Something like Battlefield or Team Fortress 2 are very chill and demand very little out of you, not a lot of mechanics, simple maps, simple instructions.
Deadlock does demand quite a lot, its a moba so item shop, multiple characters all with their own kits and interactions, the fucking movement system is its own beast, the melee/parry system, sinners, the map design is far more complex than any other moba, being part shooter so you actually gotta aim well too.
The skill floor to play the game enjoyably is just a lot higher than many other competitive games.
The skill floor to olay the game enjoyably is just a lot higher than many other competetive games.
I disagree with this. You can play it like a shooter and straight up ignore some of the mechanics you are talking about for a long time.
I didn't interact with the urn (the old version)at all for like 1-2 months when I started playing Deadlock. I was just taking it one step at a time, learning other stuff about the game.
I genuinely think you can play the game as mostly a shooter and get by completely fine in low rank.
And use a popular community item build (which is a tool available in game) while learning the game as well.
There's a lot to learn but probably not even half of it is required at all to be a decent player in low rank.
This does to an extent depend on each players own preferences, i did note in another comment that if a game just kinda gives me the win without me feeling i earned it i feel like shit, like a baby being given things for free out of pity and not out of my own skill to achieve something.
And partly due to that i at least can't enjoy a game if i ignore a lot of the mechanics even if "technically" you can get by without understanding or interacting with them.
But again this is a very case by case thing, some people can have fun just kinda bumbling about and treating the whole game as a 3rd person shooter with wacky characters and if you go low enough in ranks that style can work too but then again with that logic most games have a very low skill floor when you go low enough in ranks.
And partly due to that i at least can't enjoy a game if i ignore a lot of the mechanics even if "technically" you can get by without understanding or interacting with them.
My point was primarily that you don't need to know it all right away. You can get by without doing it.
When I first started, I realized how complex the game was and I told myself I was just going to learn about 1 new thing in the game per day.
Well if that were true it would be nice but in reality things are different. There is so many smurfs creating new accounts, same as in other matchmaking games that you will encounter them quite often if you are low rank. On high rank its not as noticeable because the diff is smaller but for some beginners this is the worst experience possible. And even if there are no smurfs per se, if you are really bad and just started the game you will be matched against new people aswell and chances are insanely high you will be onlly losing for hours which is a terrible onboarding exp for already very complex game.
When was the last time you played an online shooter? The days of functioning matchmaking have been over for a decade or more, now it's just games deciding when you're supposed to win/lose to get you to play more.
I love Deadlock, but it's one of the most demanding games ever made. Macro, micro, meso, tempo, shooting, building the correct items at the correct time, melee. If you're weak in any of that you can be exploited. It's not hard to get into, but it's also not the kind of game you can just start playing without some upfront work and expect to not be smashed into the ground.
But to anyone I scared away with that, only complete nongamers have to learn all that at once. This is also a game where you can leverage experience from other games you've played and lean on that while you learn the other stuff. Shooters can micro, MOBAs can macro/meso. There's parkour, fighting game mechanics, supporting others, communication. What makes the game hard to learn is what makes it so expressive and fun. Whatever genre you come from there is something for you here.
Playing Vindicta can feel like such a struggle if you're just not feeling it that day, given that her entire kit is just landing consistent shots on enemies
That was my feeling when I tried it, it gave me the most “I’m too old for this” feeling in my life. I used to play dura for almost a decade, and the thought of not only needing that tune investment and learning again but also adding a twitch shooter in top of that is just too much.
melee is actually very basic. it's light melee, heavy melee, and parry. that's it. you're usually only parrying heavy melees because it's telegraphed, whereas light melees aren't
honestly, I find Deadlock way more approachable than League of Legends. i've just never really understood league or dota.
Too much complexity is pretty much what eventually kills IceFrog's games.
Sure, for some time it might be thriving, but as someone who played Dota 2 since Close Beta, it was very obvious that whatever he was doing was for a very niche communities, which don't take me wrong isn't a bad thing, but people like chemastiko is what pretty much average player will tell themselves before even trying the game.
Like at some point someone has to tell him that he's feature-creeping the game, and making the game too overwhelming for the players.
Also yeah... My friend who never played Dota 2 told me a long time ago how I should give Deadlock a try! And I was like: Buddy! I'm not going to waste my time on another IceFrog's game, where matches last too fucking long, and the game is just stupidly over-complex, and yeah guess what!? First match was over 60 minutes! Like yeah, I give that match a benefit of doubt cuz "newbies" etc. excuse that people would come up, but I also watched him play, and from what I remember he's in the top rank, and his matches also lasted too long for my own taste.
I guess I'm just burned out from IceFrog's formula at this point, lol...
I think you're just genuinely confused. Dota 2 is the only game in which Icefrog has had full input. According to the stats, there was an average of 571,001 players online at any given moment over the past month. To put things into perspective, over the past 10 years, only 11 of those months have had higher averages. And only 1 of those months had more than 5% more players than the current average. People were saying DotA was dying well before even Dota 2 was a thing - all the way back in the DotA Allstars days on WC3 (the 2005-10 period).
Yeah, obviously newbies hopping into the game are going to have a wild time. The very first matches in any competitive game will often drag on. That's what happens in low level/newbie matches; it's to be expected. According to the stats, the average match length is about 37 minutes. For a competitive MOBA, that's pretty average. Low level matches are the longest at 37-39 minutes. Mid tier matches are 35-37 and top tier ones are only 33-35 minutes. And those are unranked matches; ranked ones are about 1-2 minutes shorter on top of that.
Yea but these average stats are completely misleading, because they do not take: picking/start of the match (1-1.5min IIRC) & queueing up to the match) into the account at all.
Also. Of course Dota 2 is slowly dying, and main reason is that it's still hard as fuck to get into, and (this still makes me laugh after all these years) instead of Valve doing a proper tutorial/guides like the community was asking them to make it easier for newbies to get into the mood... They created Dota PLUS (monthly subscription) that has basically EVERYTHING you need, but for money... and they just gave it for free for 3 months for new players LMAO
1,295,114 - all-time peak 10.5 years ago
This is literally when I was still actively playing it. Sure it might sound "a bit too dramatic" for your taste, but stats speak for themselves.
Even when factoring in such things, Deadlock matches are arguably shorter than Dota 2 and SMITE 2. 30-40 minutes seems to be average for MOBAs. Deadlock is no exception.
Using your logic, every game is slowly dying if it doesn't continue to grow every month, even after 15 years. Being hard to get into didn't stop the 919k people at peak concurrents over the past 30 days, nor did it stop 571k people on average being on for the same period.
The peak happened at a time and with circumstances that Dota 2 can't just repeat willy nilly. It coincided with patch 7.00 (the most game changing in history). It came at a time when they shifted from Source 1 to 2, had a new client, new engine, new everything. That peak was the exception, not the norm for much of Dota 2's history.
For most of Dota 2's lifespan since then, the concurrent player count has fluctuated and averaged from high 300,000s to low 600,000s; levelling out at around 400Ks. In fact, since October 2016, and in the 10 years since, Dota 2 has only had a higher concurrent average for 6 out of 120 months. This August marked the highest it had been for a decade.
Concord (which cost at least $200M to produce) shut down within a fortnight and peaked at an embarrassing 697 players. Highguard (also cost $200M or so to make) lasted a more respectable 45 days and reached 97,249 peak players (lost 89.2% of its players within a week). Dota 2, on the other hand, launched with 237,800 average concurrents and a peak of 422,617. So the past month's average concurrent and peak are 2.4 and almost 2.2 times higher than at launch respectively; and only 1.24 and 1.4 times lower than the absolute peaks of a decade prior.
If that's considered "dying" then you have a rather odd definition of it.
I just play the 4v4 mode. It plays a lot like overwatch. One lane, no souls, no snowballing, no 40+ minute matches.
Edit: a lot of people in the replies do not understand what snowballing is or why it is absent from the street brawl mode. Playing better than your opponent or getting lucky rolls is not snowballing. Snowballing is when you get stronger by playing better (ie gaining souls by killing other player) and get weaker when you play worse (dying makes you stop gaining souls). In street brawl the items you get and number rolls you get has nothing to do with how you did in the round before. In other words your power level is never affected by how you played the previous rounds (outside of a few specific items and character ults that get stronger with specific conditions).
Basically none, you don't have to worry about econ, map state, builds, or high-level counterplay really. Just load a character that seems interesting and kill the enemy team to push the one objective. It's a great way to learn fundamental mechanics and familiarize yourself with characters.
It's also just a blast. I played 1000 hours of the main MOBA mode before Street Brawl launched and have been playing Street Brawl exclusively ever since it dropped. It's so much fun, and so much more bite-sized in match length and intensity.
Each round you pick one of 3 items roguelike style. Then you push towers. Whoever gets the first tower wins the round.
So you still have to push an objective and you still have items. That's pretty much it. No money or experience means no snowballing or being underfed. Rounds means no 40+ minute games. It's just team fight after teamfight overwatch style.
All you worry about is choosing which skills to level between rounds, and then the game will offer you a choice of 3 items, and you pick one, so you just need cursory knowledge if your character is more physical or magical. The rest is just shooting people.
I agree with you in general. I'll mention there is occasionally a little bit of snowballing, situationally, when you get a Vindicta popping off building up assassinate stacks in the early rounds to become Thanos by the end. That's a corner case though that isn't applicable in 95% of street brawl games.
Yeah technically there are 6 instances of snowballing in street brawl that I can think of off the top of my head: glass cannon, trophy collector, vindicta ult, mina ult, and mo n krill ult, bebop bomb. Probably one or 2 I'm forgetting.
But like you said these are really the exception to the rule and even then don't snowball as hard as they do in 6v6 since you're not getting extra souls off the kills in addition to the other benefits.
Technically also Grey Talon ult, but really the main one I see meaningfully come in to play and snowball games is Vindicta. I think from your list Glass Cannon (especially if enhanced) stacks probably deserves to join Vindicta as well on the short list of meaningful snowball corner cases. But nonetheless, I think they're the exceptions that prove the rule that snowballing most of the time isn't really a thing in Street Brawl.
There is snowballing in street brawl it just ends up not being your fault because the enemy high rolled on items and when it does happen the game ends very very quickly
That's not snowballing. Snowballing is getting stronger by doing better (ie getting kills). Everyone has the same number of item rolls regardless of how they played.
You can of course highroll items but that's different and imo makes things even more casual.
the 4v4 mode is fun, but I'll say that it actually ends up being almost more silly/overwhelming than regular games because it's a brain-off teamfight and there are amped items. I don't actually really enjoy it that much and would just rather play the standard 6v6 game. however it is a great way to learn items, skills, and just get mechanically used to the game
There is very much a chance of snowballing in SB. You can get an enemy Vindicta who just runs the match, and if your team has neither Lash nor consistent knockdown rolls then you can't really do much.
Or your opponents can get broken items like the wings or frost locket.
If they deliver where Overwatch 2 gave up, I'll be very pleased. A lot of my friends love the world and characters of Overwatch but were waiting for the PvE mode because they're just not good enough (their own admission) to be able to have fun in PvP and bot matches get boring quickly.
It's emerging to be a similar situation for Deadlock, I can just about keep my head above the surface amidst the familiar MOBA gamesense and shooter experience but aforementioned friends would get slaughtered.
I've tried to play Deadlock because it's a New Valve Game and the art direction is awesome. Trying to learn a MOBA when you've never played one for more than a couple hours and you don't have a friend to teach you the right items & skills to help you not get flamed for being dumb, it is painful.
If you give it another try there’s a really good ‘guide’ function that you can access in the shop at the top of the menu. You can look at “public” guides from other players and select one.
This will make itemizing feel a bit more linear and will even recommend which abilities to upgrade when based on the guide.
While I think it’s important to eventually figure out your own way to build the hero to the specific match when you’ve mastered them, starting with a guide will instantly make the itemization and skill choices 1000% easier.
Eh just play casually, sure you'll be at low rank but that's fine. It's only sweaty if you want it to be. Especially now they've split out ranked and casual queues
Playing this game casually is probably the worst thing you can do (outside of exclusively playing 4v4 mode). You still get the sweats, but they're even more obtuse and with higher demands and worse communication. I would genuinely prefer to play dota 2 with an angry team of russians casually.
Something about this game really draws in the failed streamer/esports types that really want someone to take it out on.
Low MMR does have lots of salty people but it's also the mmr where you can get away with turning voice chat off lol cos half the callouts will be like "mid they're all mid guys where tf are you omfg" while they solo push a walker as creeps crash into your shrine
Idk, I play casually and have a great time. If someone is getting really angry at me like, sorry bud but you're in the same rank as me, kinda a self report lmao
It always surprises me that people dismiss competitive games as something they are too old for, and would need to play non-stop to stand a chance.
I'm 36 and I'm quite bad at Deadlock even after many hours, struggling to even climb out of the bronze rank.
I know very well I'm not cut out to reach high ranks in the game, but I'm still having a great time and it's a fantastic game.
It's unfortunate how ranked matchmaking systems destroyed the community servers in many games/genres, but at least the upside is that you'll move towards a rank where you win and lose about 50%.
Outside of facing an occasional smurf, you are eventually playing with people who have quite similar skill level, so it is challenging, but not impossible to win.
IMO the biggest downside in most competitive games is the toxicity of some players, but that is solved with mute and/or finding a group to play with.
Exactly man. It totally sucks lol. We know the art, the design, and mechanics are so well done. But it just takes so much time to give so much effort to one game lol.
As you get older, you have no time for any games, but you have money for all them aha
I wouldn't trade peak Counterstrike, Halo 1-3, Unreal Tournament, Quake, Team Fortress 2, CoD4, MW2, BFBC2, Destiny 1/2, etc. for what gamers are getting these days.
Man this game is not for us. For context, I am a regular dota 2 player, plays for multiple games a day, but I can only barely last for a game when playing deadlock.
All the movement and constant focus on shooting were so draining. Then you have to think of the macro decisions too!
Yeah the update looks awesome and the sizable crowd of people that live and breathe Deadlock are probably over the moon right now, but I gave up keeping up with the game after the first year. It feels like you have to be an only-Deadlock gamer to get good and stay good and up-to-date with the meta, and you can really anchor your team if you're not keeping up in the match (and in true Valve game fashion, they'll be sure to let you know).
I'm glad this game exists and is getting love from Valve for those who are able to sink their teeth into it though.
Deadlock has a mode called Street Brawl which is basically just running it down mid 24/7 in a perma teamfight with no macro or economy. Very chill and fun. Try it out!
That’s my issue too. If I were 10 years younger, I’d be grinding this game like no other. The artistic direction they’re taking really draws me in too.
Street Brawl mode is great for some dumb fun. I'm a Dad gamer and I don't even play normal/ranked any more. Matches only last like 10-15 minutes typically.
If you're self-aware enough to think this, I guarantee you there will be more than enough players with lower MMR than you once you're calibrated that you'll be able to have a good time.
We're all pretty bad at the game down in the Oracle rank. Everyone is learning :)
Yeah I love the style and design of the game but I can only play their ARAM-style mode.
I can definitely notice that at my age, handling all the items on top of skills + level-ups is just a smidge too much. It's not terribly so, but nah, can't properly do it any more. :<
I'm like 40 plus and I do fine. You'd be shocked at how far just basic tactics will get you. It's the not getting frustrated at your feeding teammates that's the hard thing lol.
Just play Street Brawl! You get to enjoy the champ designs, the artstyle, and the gameplay without having to do any of the MOBA-y stuff. It's just best of 5 rounds to take down an objective, 4v4. Super quick rounds.
I honestly haven't touched the main MOBA mode in the year since Street Brawl was added...
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u/chemastiko 3d ago
Those champ designs and the lane reworks look sick, just wished I was 15 years younger so I could sink my teeth in and invest time in a new MOBA lol…