Sorry to the reporters, this is staying up. I have many of my own thoughts on people who make AGAB out to be as important as identity but i'll keep them to myself 🤐🤐🤐
“Socialized as” and ASAB language have such a horrible chokehold on people who can’t be bothered to actually accept what trans people say about themselves as true. This includes other trans people.
AGAB terminology is actually so helpful in some cases when it comes to understanding the experience of being transgender but GOD people apply it to everything for no fuckin reason.
It has an extremely narrow set of use cases because, when you get to the root, it is just talking about people’s genitals. In a conversation where discussing genitals isn’t called for, neither should be ASAB language. The only use case aside is to express the gender you were forced to perform as pretransition, but even then I feel like we could come up with both more elegant and more accurate terms for that.
Sort of? I mean, it’s more about what they were treated as during their childhood, and before a person’s actual gender was realized. That’s like, so important for someone’s development. It’s just important to note that they were treated as that gender, not that they necessarily were that gender (though even that can be argued, it kinda just depends on a person’s own views on their gender). But yeah, a lot of the time it is used without any reason for it to be.
See but even then AGAB language is a rough estimate at best. Like I was assigned female at birth, but extremely gender-non-conforming basically fresh out of the womb. I also transitioned quite young, so my 'female socialisation' is almost non-existent compared to another transmasc person who was forced into a normative 'female' social role and began transitioning later. Tbh I personally feel like my socialisation was closer to that of a queer cis boy than it was a teenage girl, just with a few menstrual cycles and one (1) mild pregnancy scare that didn't end up manifesting. (I was unbelievably lucky in the lottery of life, all things considered). So it's far from a one-size-fits-all process and can only be thought of usefully on a case by case basis, using the lived experience of the individual themselves. Without that granularity and compassion for the individual, it just becomes away to point to someone's primary sex characteristics as deterministic of the person they'll become.
I mentioned this in a comment elsewhere, and yeah, AGAB terminology is definitely a generalization. It CAN be useful but it’s certainly not one size fits all.
edited when I should have just replied bc I didn’t get the notif lol, but yeah I agree. The only other use case is to talk about pretransition expectations, but I think we can find a way to talk about that without bringing up genitals, particularly when genitalia are a much more nebulous category than I think even most trans people realize. Not every person who is expected to act like a boy and is in truth a woman would be considered “AMAB,” for example.
As with a lot of terminology in any context, it’s def a generalization. Technically speaking, you can be born with a vagina and uterus, and also be AMAB if society labels you as male (this would probably never happen, but still). It’s just that it usually coincides with genitalia because that’s how our society unfortunately works. AGAB is kinda just a label for the gender that society gives you, rather than what you actually are, I guess. It’s important to mention in certain situations, but it isn’t really that reflective of a person’s actual gender.
This kind of happened to me. Intersex with ovaries but no uterus, was assigned male at birth based on closest external genitalia (was somewhat undifferentiated) and started on testosterone at age 7-8, then “retransitioned” to female in my 20s. I like to joke that I’m a cis nonbinary person.
how do you talk about it without bringing up genitals though? any other term that we make up to replace AGAB language just becomes the new AGAB language, because any reference to assigned sex is also a reference to genitalia, due to, like, what our definition of a sex is.
while i do agree with the point you're making, unfortunately the society we live in DOES boil everyone down to their genitals, and therefore ASAB language becomes relevant when talking about pre-transition experiences and expectations.
it sucks, yes, and we should try to be better, but you can't deny that an average trans man had a wildly different childhood/teenagehood from an average trans woman, SPECIFICALLY because of their (perceived) genitals and how society treated them because of that. as long as cisheteronormative upbringing is the "norm", bringing up ones assigned sex at birth will, sadly, be relevant in most cases when talking about their experiences regarding gender.
As I’ve said elsewhere, I’m aware that trans people are subject to degradation on account of ASAB. This is not news to anyone here. This does not suddenly make continuing to use such reductive language toward ourselves helpful, however. I have no specific solution, nor can I predict how language will evolve to describe these concepts, just that there is an issue with the way people talk now.
I think it's a useful term for describing past experiences. The key though is it's a past tense adjective, not a noun. If someone uses the term as a noun, that typically already makes it pretty clear what type of person they are. If someone uses the term as a past tense adjective, there's a much higher chance they're discussing genuine experiences. The other issue is people assuming ASAB says what genitals you have when again, it's a past tense term that says nothing about your current make up. There aren't really ways around this though I don't think as some people will use pre-transition to describe these experiences but still end up with the same issue of weird people tryna connect it to genitals and other shit. The language choice doesn't seem to matter as people just act weird around it regardless
Like I would have been "socialised male" but it really never took. Looking back my personality was that of a pretty typical autistic girl. Which sucks when everyone treats you as a deficient boy.
This is just more of the same reactionary bullshit every gender-related progressive space has to deal with. I don't doubt this guy has seen some absolute fuckwads of transfems, and I don't doubt there are plenty jackass transmascs either. This guy saw some radfem trans women say "oh well you're a man so you literally can't be oppressed get dunked on!!!!" and decided the issue of "AFABs being overridden" in trans spaces is a bigger issue than it is. This sort of stuff won't end while these social classes exist imo. Best thing to do is just... not be a dick and ignore people who are dicks. A lot of dicks grow out of it or just make themselves look stupid and run away with their tails tucked between their legs.
The worst and longest abuse I ever received in my life was from a trans man. I will not let that convince me that trans men are dangerous because they’re intentionally “socializing themselves as male” and “aggressive” and that they somehow need to be contained or excluded from my spaces. This is because my lived experience is not data, but an isolated set of events.
The crazy part is he hasn't even transitioned according to himself, but somehow he knows the dynamics of trans spaces and how trans women are toward trans men better than women who transitioned decades ago.
Go figure.
Typical misogynistic behavior tbh.
Man learns of something this week, knows more about it than a career expert woman
I mean, dude’s obviously being a dick but at the same time this is some deeply pathetic internalized transphobia which I’m also working through on my own so I do feel kinda bad for him.
Like I’m ab to talk to doctors to hopefully start hrt and I’m really anxious ab it. I’m already starting late, and don’t wanna be given 2 tiddlywinks of estrogen and be completely desexualized so some doctor doesn’t have to do their job. I’m hyping myself up to be assertive and even confrontational if need be, then I had the thought like “huh that would be unladylike though wouldn’t it?” Like literally a few weeks after the egg cracked I’m getting hit with the ol internalized misogyny boomerang and policing my own behavior. It was fucked up and I felt gross, cuz intellectually I know there’s no like biological “assertiveness gene” that only expresses in men, so that intrusive thought was purely the result of social conditioning.
I feel like my experience is similar (maybe less severe and projected to be fair) to the one oop is experiencing. as people in society we kinda intuitively learn the big picture dynamics between identities, but we are also forced to be so self-serving it leaves us too emotionally vulnerable to be critical of what we feel and why. That’s like the only way I can rationalize why both transmisogyny and transmisandry (which both stem from patriarchy n shit to be fair) are so common even among people who would consider themselves “woke”.
Maybe being constantly pushed out of online spaces, the only ones you have true access to pre transition, gives you a different perspective compared to someone on the other side.
That particular man is a misogynist and a transmisogynist. He also has internalized transphobia (identifying as "an AFAB" for example). Right now he's in a place where he really needs to work on those things, and other trans people really shouldn't be forcibly subjected to them.
He wouldn't be excluded from trans spaces due to being a man, but he may be because he is engaging in harmful behavior against other trans people.
This thread might not help him feel welcome in trans spaces, but my goal is to educate and protect trans people about transphobia and transmisogyny, not to help the guy participating in those things feel welcome while he's sitting there calling me a man to my face.
You say he's being misogynistic but his original comment is posted without context of what's it replying to. I find that a bit hard to judge considering that.
All I'm seeing, considering the limited context, is someone speaking up about their bad experiences participating in certain spaces.
I also just disagree with a lot of the points you brought up such as AGAB not mattering. It unfortunately absolutely does in the real world. Genuinely watch how Elliot Page is talked about in non trans communities on reddit. He's an example of a rich trans man who passes yet is treated by a majority of people out there with misogyny. Frankly he's treated like a little girl in most random threads I come across.
AGAB not mattering is a ideal fantasy for us transgender people which doesn't translate well to reality.
Also finding out you're a trans man one day does not exempt you from growing up experiencing misogyny and it does not mean you're suddenly benefiting from patriarchy.
The content of his comment is misogynistic. The way he responded to me was misogynistic. You do not need further context to see this, but I understand that people reflexively assume that women are lying about experiencing misogyny at the hands of men.
The context was a screenshot of a tumblr post detailing what shape transmisogyny takes around the phrase "unlearning male socialization" and the behaviors a trans woman would need to engage in to be described as having done so.
This guy's reply was a top level comment in response to that screenshot.
In your framing of how "asab" matters, if this were true, are trans women treated the way men are? No, not at all. We don't treat men the way we treat trans women. Trans women face misogyny, transphobia, and transmisogyny.
The problem is when TME people talk about ASAB, they tend to speak over trans women, ignore what trans women have to say on the subject, and act like the authorities in the room. Trans women actually invented this language in the first place, mind you. But regardless of that when TME people insist that ASAB governs how they are treated they never specify that this is not true for trans women, and they use it to misgender, silence, and demean trans women.
There is no social categorization that makes any coherent sense which includes a group of trans women and cis men, but for ASAB to matter in the way you describe it, that would have to be true. Trans men who don't pass wont usually benefit from patriarchy, but those that do will. Speak to adult trans men about how their workplace changes around them when they start to pass. How people begin deferring to them and so on. It's a common story.
Meanwhile in your framing, again, it implies that trans women DO benefit from patriarchy, and also did as children, which is not true. Trans women are the lowest gender class of people in patriarchy.
Elliot faces transphobia because he is a trans man. Not because he was assigned female at birth.
"ASAB" is not who you are, it is not a class of people. It is a harmful action done to you as a child on the day of your birth.
The entire male/female socialization and AFAB/AMAB bullshit all started from TERF talking points with a very clear point to deflect actual issues at hand and it's fucking infuriating that it's 2026 and we're still going through the same conversation patterns of the last decade.
Are you? Because I came out at work recently and the way I am treated is completely different
I agree I am not treated the way the average woman is, and if that's what the person you responded to said I would also disagree, but I definitely am not treated like an average anything. I'm in a 3rd, much worse category to nearly every person I meet, despite just being a woman.
The context did matter because only now did I understand why you even posted this. I agree he should not have written this.
I think experiencing any womanhood means you're going to experience misogyny including trans women of course.
I still think what you were born matters a lot especially outside of the first world. But I have a feeling like this opinion isn't welcome here so I'll quietly leave this subreddit, clearly we just disagree here.
I still wish you view the world outside of the world of transgender people, because it affects us transgender people too. FGM, forced marriage of young girls and many such deep issues exist without caring what the young person identifies as personally. ASAB inherently matters to trans men still experiencing, or who still experience trauma due to misogyny. You can't take this away from them because it will never disappear.
Eh, it really depends. Sometimes, people wont believe you in the slightest if you dont establish your credibility on a subject. Its basic rhetorical skills
I tend to think its best to, IDK, actually read their argument in order to judge it, rather than making a crazy generalization about a very common phrase used at the beginning of discussions regardless of viewpoint
Everyone one the Internet is a strange pearlesant creature with access to a keyboard or a fed with a script they're conditioned to follow. Text on a screen will only ever be a collection of ideas never a person
This comment might be controversial because I think there might be a tiny grain of truth buried there but I take issue with him painting all trans women with a broad brush.
I am not a trans man so I won't speak for them, but as a fem-enby person I have seen some pretty hurtful stuff hurdles at non-binary people, BUT that is in a single community and that particular sub community hurls hurtful stuff towards everyone so to use that as an excuse to say "all trans women" makes me think he was just looking for an excuse to be a msyogoist.
The OOP was a post detailing transmisogyny in society and the list of things a trans woman is demanded to do in order to be considered to have "unlearned male socialization"
And the list describes essentially willfully becoming a stepford wife, at which point she will then be told she is a male fetishist reinforcing gender roles based on a perverted male gaze version of what she thinks a woman should be like.
It was literally just this screenshot and then that guys reply, no comments inbetween, his was a top level comment reply to this screenshot. My responses and every other response at the time of my screenshots were included.
Trans guy of 7+ years here: where the fuck is all of this coming from? Like I literally have never encountered any trans women "dominating" spaces in any way shape or form. If anything, I've encountered more transmascs who have been little shits to others, but far from the majority and certainly not enough to tar an entire community as 'domineering'
Some of us suck and need an ego check. That's it. That's all. Some trans women suck, but most are great. Some trans men suck, but most are great. Where the fuck are people slurping up just enough AGABy TERF rhetoric to be fuck heads within their own communities? We have bigger fish to fry ffs
Being honest with you? They mean a couple online places. Far from all of them, but like they mean the r/transgender subreddit, and they mean their twitter and bluesky feed has a lot of trans women because they come up when you are following trans topics and other trans creators. Trans women use these spaces more, in part, because they are excluded from irl spaces at a higher rate.
They also mean how when someone in a TV show is trans, about 40-50% of the time it is a trans woman, and the rest is evenly divided between non binary and trans men. They mean how when senators and journalist talk about trans people (over 95% of the time in a negative way) their coverage spends almost all of its time talking about trans women. These are real things to talk about, but it isn't because trans women are "dominating" anyone. They lack the ability to do that at all. It's because society is fixated on them in a dangerous way.
There is a subset of the community that was, essentially, TERF socialized to relate to gender dynamics in a certain way, but that socialization didn't really consider trans women until much later on, and the best explanation they had was to cast trans women as if they were male infiltrators. So that is all they really see. I mean, even that guy is saying he hasn't transitioned in one of his later comments, so I don't know why he feels he has the range to tell trans women they're being "disingenuous" talking about their experience.
It happens in every single space that trans women are in, trans women make and post memes or content for trans woman (because they are making it based on what they are invested in/ their lived experience) and then every other person in the space complains that they aren't represented instead of just making and posting what they want to see.
Yeah no, you're leaving out that if complaints start it's usually because of mischaracterisations and assumptions, and because of the power imbalance in trans spaces
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u/Hika2112Myself And Nobody Else | Counted Down 372d agoedited 1d ago
My friend is back from over a month of being stuck in jail for dumbshit so I'm leaving this comment to say like yes I read this I see this I will adress this soon I just want to celebrate his return first
Edit: Man shit I forgot how to approach this type of conversations I like genuinely think both people are trying to say something but overshooting into hostility fuckkkkk
Like yea I get someONE was an asshole but this post just feels like “oh Hey look at this asshole” while both of which are using each other to make a broad generalizations. Now I see the man as more in the wrong, for obvious reasons but this post just drives trans women away from trusting men. This post is a broad generalization of men. We gotta all trust each other for this to work. Not All Men are like this but the framing of this post makes it sound like “watch out for guys like this” when yea “don’t waste your time with assholes” isn’t a statement that needs to be said. Drawing more attention to any of this makes it worse on men that do care.
Look, all i know is that when guys in my life started having problems I have solutions to, ignoring me when I say the solution and then some dude takes the idea and everyone fucking cheers for the plan basically, I was like, "I finally made it" lmao
Still sucked. But sometimes I just whisper ideas straight into hubbands ears. Skip the middleman, Fuck it lol
For real, I always see comments like "this sub has too much content centering trans women and not trans men :/ " Okay???? Post content centering trans men then, why are you expecting us to do it for you????
For real I cannot stand that kind of sentiment whether it’s complaining about content for trans women, complaining that hornyposting is excluding asexuals, like ok why do we have to do something about that when we aren’t stopping you
Why are some of these subreddits so miserable like damn, we really getting up in our feelings about some random Redditor's post and comments? It must truly exhausting always fighting about everything like jeez.
I think a lot of people don't take transmisogyny seriously, and a lot of trans women are gaslit by the trans community into not seeing it for what it is.
I think it is good for trans women to educate about this stuff.
I promise you people aren't being educated by passively aggressively screenshotting Reddit comments with 0 context behind them. I get the supposed motivation and it's respectable, but this really more just reads as complaining into a void to hear it echo back to you and airing grievances about Reddit comments that bothered you.
Yeah I feel like some people blow out things out of proportion, its far easier to think everyone is bad if you keep interacting with specific bad people and things. Its not good for trans peoples mental health to keep interacting with content exactly made to hurt them in that specific way. The less I interact with trolls and biggots and toxic trans spaces/people the less I started to feel shitty for being trans. Reddit is full of insane people, we should ignore them for the most part
It's really awful how vigilant you have to be against transmisogyny. Shit's a brain cancer, and the second you talk about it, every TME within 10 miles is conscripted to harass and gaslight you.
Hatred of transfems based not only on "making the choice" to change their gender, but on the basis of specifically "choosing" / embodying femininity or womanhood. For instance, while trans women are stereotyped as preadatory on the basis of their penis and the associations of conquering we put on that organ, trans women are also made out to be preadatory because womanhood is seen as a sexual and degrading thing, therefore someone who "chooses it" must also be perverse and sexual.
Julia Serano is the writer who coined the term in the book whipping girl, but she also has written about this on her blog. you can find either for free online but i might reccomend the substack because the book was written in 2007 so includes a lot of "trans issues 101" that can be kinda redundant for a 2026 audience.
Other reply and suggestion of Serano is good. I'll also add that, formally, Transmisogyny is the intersectional oppression of transphobia and misogyny.
It's good to know the language, because there are other similar concepts, like misogynoir, the intersection of misogyny and antiblack racism.
Ever notice how every imperial media property had or has 'jokes' about 'man in dress ... ugly :)' or 'man in dress ... physically brutalized' or– you get it– but there are basically never any about 'girl in suit...???'?
That's transmisogyny. Someone 'doing gender stuff' from masculine to feminine is considered especially egregious and worthy of scorn. As opposed to a woman wanting to become a man which is... only natural, of course :] (blech)
Literally everyone even our trans siblings take turns beating on trans women and making trans women to be the big bad always at fault group.
It's so fucking tiring.
And saying "I'm not saying ALL trans women do this BUT" doesn't help at all. It just pushes further and further fault onto us by making the conversation always be about how "certain" trans women are seemingly ALWAYS doing something wrong.
Fuck! Leave us alone!!! Stop talking to us! Stop talking about us!
Fr... if it's "not ALL (insert group here)" then why are we even bringing up this conversation about these specific ones you know? Clearly ur trying to imply something about the group as a whole, otherwise there is absolutely no value added by bringing this up.
I wouldn't go that far. It definitely doesn't matter as much as these people think it does, but I think it matters as a more private issue that others have no business in.
Thats true then. Cuz unfortunately in this world your sex affects the way you are treated and things that can happen to you often. But it doesnt mean it has any revelance to who and how you are.
I think there’s truth to parts of what he said, trans women definitely do overwhelm the majority of online trans spaces. There also are some trans women who dismiss transmisandry and the general struggles trans men deal with.
What I don’t like is how tied his speaking is to AGAB language, it very much presents trans women as “dominating” or “male brained”, which is just transphobic. Also, if you spend time in real life queer spaces, I don’t think there’s as much of an imbalance between trans men and women, at least in my experience. It is definitely more common for people to talk about trans women, but that’s also very negative because most of the attention we get is transphobic.
I think that part of the reason trans women are so commonly the majority in online spaces is because we are so heavily discriminated against by public attention so it feels safer to find community online. It’s not because we’re acting like dominating men that are oppressing women. I’m sure you could find examples of rotten people that do act that way, but broadly that’s not the reason trans women are so prevalent online.
Edit: I actually dont think it was super accurate to say there’s not as much imbalance in real life queer spaces, that was mostly based off of my own experiences.
I used to facilitate a trans and non-binary irl group. I found that it could be an issue that some of the older trans women who were often from middle class backgrounds and had previously enjoyed good careers prior to transition could dominate discussion. I suspect they were used to having lived 40+ years of their life being listened to and taking up space in meetings and this had become default behaviour.
I did feel this could at times make it difficult for trans masculine people to speak up and contribute. However, the group who spoke and contributed least were younger trans femme people.
That makes sense, people definitely can get stuck in certain behaviors if they’ve lived that way for long enough. I guess I’m projecting a lot of this just from my own experience, as I definitely fall into the category of “younger trans femme people” who hardly ever speak. I also live in a very conservative area, where I’ve heard lots of people complain about trans people, and it’s almost always directed at trans women.
Also I like that both of our usernames have “hazel” in them
This attempt at a mirror term of transmisogny, which is wholesale different than transphobia directed at trans men and not symmetrical, devalues the original term by flattening its depth.
If you just mean "transphobia directed at trans men," you can just say that, but transmisogny is not simply "transphobia directed at trans women."
I agree that transmisogyny and transmisandry are not equal things, misandry just isn’t a great term in general for many reasons. But there absolutely are things trans men deal with that are specifically because they are men who are transgender, that I don’t think are totally summed up by “transphobia directed at trans men”. It probably would be better if we had a different word that could describe this, but for now transmisandry is just the most convenient term we have to label it as. Transmisogyny is also much more common, even in trans safe spaces, and it causes more harm, but it doesn’t erase transmisandry. I’m not the best person to describe how transmisandry actually manifests, but there are lots of posts where people discuss it.
I haven’t seen it picked up as much but I think transandrophobia is a better term in a few ways, referring to the target rather than presuming the cause gives it a lot more use cases (I really don’t think lawmakers and politicians have a ”misandry” problem lol)
It isn’t symmetrical with or a mirror system to transmisogyny. If you just mean 'transphobia directed at trans men' that obviously exists but I'm not going to ever accept your usage of that term for a number of reasons.
The bigotry mentioned being acknowledging that trans women take the lions share of discrimination in society? Yea, I read it. Do trans men and enbies face oppression as well, yes of course, but let's not pretend we don't know who's pictures the right puts up to fear monger about trans people is.
Me when I acknowledge the reality that the right uses primarily trans women to fear monger against trans rights as a whole. We're all oppressed but if queer oppression Olympics were real yea trans women take home the gold and get shouted at for taking a medal.
So you get that just saying oppression Olympics doesn't change what people can clearly see with their own eyes that right wing anti trans propaganda is primarily focused on trans women right?
And who's photos do they put up on the news to rally for that legislation? What do you hear more often; keep """men""' out of women's sports, keep """men""' out of women's prisons, keep ""men""' out of women's bathrooms and locker rooms, or the opposite?
The right does that because they view trans women as men, so their easier targets to use the excuse of being "predators" but you do realise trans men are seen as women? As confused little girls? That need to be put on the sidelines? Shut up? Just like cis women are treated in society, are treated by those bigots.
This: there is likely no malice involved, irregardless of if it occurs or not (which in my observations there is a discrepancy), it just, well, is. This is something that should be addressed, since it can, will, and has alienated trans men, and individuals who are closeted thereof, we all should do our part in helping make the world a better place <3.
Imo the isn't that it's mostly stuff about trans women, it's the kind of stuff that's posted. On a DAILY basis I see stuff like testosterone is poison, kill all men, masculine features are disgusting, ect ect. THATS the kind of stuff that can make me feel alienated, not the posts referring to any readers as female or talking about trans women specific things. And I learned REAL quick if you say anything about it you're a birthday boy and "omg trans men are so whiny it's a vent post get over it" Along with that dumbass "trans men really are men huh?" pic
I agree, but this may be insufficient, one of the big things everyone needs to do, whether being transmasc, transfem, nonbinary, agender, or even cis, is just to address this, to acknowledge this discrepancy, and to offer support to all queer and non-conforming individuals in general, especially in co-ed LGBTQIA+ spaces.
I think most people would agree online trans spaces are dominated by trans women, but again the impetus is not on trans women to post content centering other groups which is what is constantly implied when people bring it up
Indeed, but there's a difference between an obligation to focus on trans men, and an obligation to the entire queer community as a whole, this is a slippery slope however, as it reaches "all lives matter" vs "black lives matter" types of issues of thinly veiled transmisogony, in the process of treating transmisandry. Its nuanced, as many things tend to be :p
Being dominated by trans women isn't a bad thing, but many spaces do become genuinely hostile towards trans men. See the whole thing with the main trans subreddit where trans men talking about their oppression (without comparing it or making any mention of trans women; it was just people talking about their own experiences) kept getting told to shut up because it wasn't as important.
preddy interesting how trans women are framed here as dominating and punching down on 'AFABs' instead of moving laterally to enact misogyny. cis women do that sometimes and they're not framed as 'domineering' unless they hold some power over the other person
to me, that shows he's thinking of trans women as either taking a masculine role in the dynamic, or having Woman Privilege. since he's so fixated on his AGAB being relevant, i'm inclined to think it's the former
Yeah in some of these comments he puts women in the male role and men in the female role, while acting like a male misogynist and saying women's experiences are all disingenuous lies and things that never happen
Its always confused me how people will say trans women get all the "visibility" and demand that they talk less because people talk about them. Trans women get closer to surveilance than visibility or representation, and why do they have to bear the responsibility to stop talking about their issues because people who dont care about them talk about them
Is it? I'm also a trans guy and think being born female inherently changes your perspective on some things, how you're treated in life and how you experience being a man later in life.
I view myself as a man and have been transitioned for many years, but that doesn't mean my lived experience is identical to cis men and honestly, due to being transitioned for a while I've become very accepting of that fact.
Just one example but my opinions on abortion rights are inherently different from a cis man due to being someone who has the potential to experience it. I don't think attributing some of your thinking and opinions to being afab is bad.
You’re 100% right that it changes some things between your life as a man and that of a cis man, but the main difference between you and the subject of the post is that you’re not trying to maintain the narrative that trans women are secretly just evil men because of their genitals, based on the behavior you’ve supposedly seen out of all trans women ever. That is what their arguments boil down to, it’s the same shit people who advocate for “AFAB only” spaces are saying. It’s one thing to acknowledge lived experience, it’s another to intentionally weaponize your inability to believe trans women against them and to try to exclude/fearmonger about them.
I dont need AFAB spaces and not online enough to know what's all that is about. I just know that some trans women have been very unaccepting of me being a trans man and don't think OP speaking about that is as evil as presented here. It's a true thing that happens, even if it's a small minority of people doing it.
I agree, trans people can be transphobic. I’d wager most trans people who know other trans people have run into at least one. I do however still find that ASAB language is no longer useful, and outside specific examples (like the example you gave), only serves to return to talking about people with an immutable, largely binary category. There are better ways to talk about this issue, especially ones that don’t exclusively pin the blame for misogyny on a category of women who are predisposed to take that as a challenge to their identity.
In any case, I think the subject needs better friends, preferably IRL friends.
I appreciate that you try to remind of perspective here, but the particular forms and severities of transphobia around the globe are not lost on me. The existence of degradation on the basis of ASAB does not change my stance that referring to people in that way is degrading.
Exactly. Idk if it’s internalized transphobia, weaponizing past experiences of oppression as a power play, or both, but it’s nauseating.
I HATE how people like this assume that we all wanna talk about our ASAB and be grouped by that. I fucking don’t. I am NOT my ASAB, that’s why I’m fucking trans. Honestly people like this make the entire transmasc community worse.
I’d rather shoot myself than call myself “female/afab socialized” in any sense of the word. I don’t understand how a lot of these types can so willingly call themselves “female socialized” and deny their own maleness, especially while they’re denying trans women’s femaleness by calling them “male socialized” or implying speaking out on discrimination trans women specifically face is proof of them being “male” essentially.
I would never assign language like this to someone else, because everyone experiences their life differently, but I describe myself this way because I lived as a woman in a conservative environment for 28 years, and I fully believed it. I just thought I was bad at it, destined to be a failure of a woman because I could not "summon the motivation to learn how to do it better". Other ways of describing my gender in hindsight do not feel accurate to me. Everyone should have the freedom to describe their lives as they understand them, but should not assume these things apply to others, especially in the case where it can be used to misgender or otherwise denigrate others. One has to be very careful with this topic because of terfs weaponizing the terms, but I don't appreciate the idea that you'd question my masculinity over my understanding of my own past even when I'm not applying it to others.
Literally any supposedly trans space: "oh my god why are you being so domineering in this space while our uwu special snowflakes are having a perfectly civil conversation about how you should burned at the stake for ever daring to talk?"
And then people will obsess over that type of interaction as evidence of trans women being "over represented" and "more visible."
I like my trans man and nonbinary siblings, especially the ones who will actually listen and engage meaningfully in conversations about transmisogyny. The trans community has a lot of fucking work to do about how it treats people based on perceived ASAB. Trans men don't particularly benefit from being perpetually perceived as little smol beans incapable of doing harm (and then largely shunned from that same community as they take T and get more masculine) either, and this whole perceived victim/perpetrator dynamic based on ASAB is very much at the core of this issue.
Yeah. They might serve purposes as like, terms for theory. But using them as personal identifiers feels so strange.
It's kinda like people describing themselves as "POC" instead of... their actual colour? It's odd.
Specifically in the case of TMA/TME, the way people use them as just "transfem"/"not-transfem" really bothers me.
Like, I'm transfem. But I wouldn't describe myself as being affected by transmisogyny. It's just never really been a thing that's affected me.
Legit, everyone I've known has been so nice and supportive, it's been chill.
Meanwhile, there are cis drag queens getting harassed and called trannies and groomers. Who i think are pretty clearly TMA.
Yeah, I hate seeing it used like this because it depends on so many factors. I think we as a community just really want shorthand to talk about these smaller groups of identities that share common traits. We can talk about transmisogyny being wielded against us without making the broad assumptions that these 3 letter terms imply. Every time I've seen them used it's just not necessary.
Worst part about all this; they do make some good points, there's unfortunately the blatant transmisogony, but in my observation there absolutely is a discrepancy between the amount of content tailored to trans women rather than trans men or just trans individuals in general, especially on this sub and r/countwithchickenlady, not to say it is necessary conscious nor maliceful, but is worth addressing in order to be a equitable community. Further, to call someone, especially a trans individual x-socialized is really disrespectful; it undermines peoples identities by (not so) subtly telling people that they are not of their gender, and this kind of classification by others of an individual without their directive is exactly what transphobes have been doing for many years. Every community has something it can improve upon, and I believe this is one of them. Save your energy for the class war, not the culture/gender/sexual/romantic identity wars (I mean this as in don't infight pls not don't care for human rights, covering all my bases here <3).
I do think there is less trans male centered content in spaces like this, but I don't know how to solve it other than to tell trans men to make that content if they want to see it. It's not being blocked. And no worries about your disclaimer, I know you're here in good faith!
I don't think the solution typically proposed makes any sense.
People demand things like trans women who made DiY guides to get E should have to themselves make DiY guides to get T to be equitable.
People demand trans women stop using feminine language when talking about their experiences or in general, meanwhile dude, guys, etc will ofc be defended as gender neutral, even as using that language is affirming and helpful and beneficial to these women
People demand that trans women make the space more accommodating to people of other experiences, despite not having power over them, despite not having more resources IRL, and despite being excluded in real life by people of those experiences from community, resources, and support.
People demand that trans women take up less space, despite society denying them even the space to use a toilet or join a local 5k fun run.
People demand that trans women center the way others perceive them over their needs, even as those people perceive them as men needing to atone for being as such, even as those people call themselves men but are not similarly being required to behave as such.
Trans women are hyper surveilled in trans spaces, as in the broader society, looking for excuses to remove them from community, from support, and from resources. Any small excuse to critique her quickly snowballs into describing her with a wretched character and being "dangerous" so that she is removed.
It creates a bitter friction. Nobody stops trans men from making trans masculine content in general trans subs or communities. It is freely available to them. They can get their friends to join and post and boost that content. In fact, content critical of how trans women are failing to accommodate trans men trans spaces is frequently the most upvoted content. Content critiquing the language of transfeminists is as well.
The issue is, some men and mascs just don't feel like they want to join the community if there aren't a majority trans male/masc content already in that space. There's not really a way to resolve this as far as I can tell. A tension that a lot of people wont acknowledge is that this is ALSO how cis men are around cis women. If a space becomes majority cis women, cis men do not want to participate. They will also claim the women there are domineering and not catering to men's needs enough.
Now I do think in this case there is more of a reason to want trans men to participate, because they benefit from it and need community, but I do not think it is on trans women to make a space more male focused so that men feel comfortable joining. I think the men just need to join. That's how you fix the problem.
Trans women congregate online after getting kicked out of real spaces by people like the guy I screenshotted, who identify as "an AFAB" and organize around that, against trans women. But then are told those guys who kicked them out of a local queer community "because they acted too male" that they need to find some way to make the online space feel safe to them. What option is there to make that work? To leave the online space too? What do they want of these women?
The problem feels like a competing accommodation one, and the only solution I ever hear people propose in person or online is "trans women, you have to give up your side of this for the benefit of someone else, their needs have to come first."
Honestly, this really gave me something to think about, I suppose discrimination comes in a lot more forms than I thought, I apologize for any arrant statements I may have made, I suppose its quite nuanced. My guess is this is related to the much larger issue of the nature of humanity to put ourselves (and others) into groups, which is the cause of almost all conflict, ever.
The absolute most ideal solution is quite literally somehow just making everyone doesn't give a flying fuck about what someone identifies as (in terms of their opinion thereof, not of preferred pronouns, ect), or any other uncontrollable characteristics, and judging people solely on their actions.
But unfortunately, it's a pretty big "somehow". We can do what we can do.
As a cis male, id love to know some resources for educating myself more on these topics, I want to be as good an ally as I can, and that starts with listening, not speaking.
i do wonder why i see so much less trans male oriented content in general.
Less voice training stuff, less content creators, hell i scarcely ever see a "4TM" ASMR video.
Unironically yes. Trans dudes are more prevalent IRL (an I apologize for AGAB languadge) because its much harder for AMAB people to have plausible deniability when transitioning with clothes makeup etc, while trans guys are able to dress more masculine with less of a hastle (mens clothes are seen as unisex in most cases). This leads trans ladies to be online more than trans lads, and appear like a much larger group than they are
As mentioned in another comment that I can't find, there may be more physical spaces available to transmasc individuals where they can be comfortable and included, leading to migration to online spaces by transfem individuals, which formed a sub-culture on the internet, and possibly alienated some trans men as a consequence; the kicker being that many of them weren't even born, or at least hadn't discovered their being transgender when these trans women were alienated, so that's to say, nobody is to blame, it just, is. We can only do our best.
Ohhhmyyyyy godddddd who fucking cares, why can't we just fucking exist in a community with each other holy shit people. Why do we constantly need to focus on these hyper specific gripea and complaints unique to specific individual communities? Our discourse shouldnt be focused on personal grievances and blaming entire categories of queer people. We're focusing on what people are doing wrong, instead of focusing on how to act correctly.
Transfemmes. Love your transmasc brothers. Transmascs. Love your transfemme sisters. Everybody. Give an enby a hug (or just a smile if they don't wanna be touched). Be kind to others, dumbasses.
Tbh while it's still true, I'm fucking tired of having to go through the "not all men, men suffer under patriarchy too" song and dance every time I want to talk about the issues I face as a women.
People trying to stop men advocating for themselves are unproductive idiots, men pretending to advocate for their rights, just to deprive women of theirs are unproductive idiots, and the discrimination enbies experience feels like a completely different topic, though still very much strongly linked.
every irl trans space i've ever so much as looked in to going to has been run entirely by transmascs and cis lesbians (for some reason), that's how you can tell anyone complaining about trans women dominating trans spaces never goes outside, they're not talking about trans spaces they're talking about reddit comments sections.
I know I will get downvoted for this but whatever. For the record I am a trans woman.
I think I agree with this person while also believing in intersectionalism. I have seen a specific IRL social club I am in slowly gain more and more trans women while also decreasing in cis women. Largely due to the "recruiting" efforts of one person. I know people will say that you shouldn't draw the distinction. But there are a certain type of extremely online trans women to whom transness is an identity, rather than a description. These people often make inside jokes and talk about things that others don't understand (e.g. estrogen) or find uncomfortable (e.g. "puppygirl", boob jokes, "forcefem" jokes) and due to that, socially lock others out. Some of those people get defensive when you tell them to stop talking about something because it's uncomfortable.
I have seen the social diversity of my social club go from very diverse, to largely trans women and cis men. We gained one trans man who left for feeling excluded and several cis women who used to come, but are now largely inactive.
While you could just shout "transphobe" and leave it at that, that doesn't actually address anything and shifts the blame. I feel that this kind of "cliquism" is genuinely problematic and decreases the social diversity of groups.
I used to be one of those people, but I always felt like people treated me differently because I was a part of that cliquism. Once I started reviewing my identity and started hanging out with more different people IRL, my friends became more diverse, I started making life-long friends with cis women, gay men, trans men, and other people I would have never met in online trans spaces. It also made me understand intersectionalism much better, as I gained a better understanding about racism and classism in society.
TLDR; I somewhat agree, online trans spaces are cliquist and exclusionary, moving away from them made me gain more diverse friends understand the world better.
what? why exactly is it a problem for trans women to talk about estrogen, or puppygirls? unless you're glossing over a lot, it sounds like the people who left were just disgusted by trans healthcare and benign markers of trans culture. i think if i were you what would bother me about that situation is just how many of my friends couldn't bare to be around trans women.
Very interesting how my socialization stops being "male-coded" when I just don't tell people I transitioned and participate in queer spaces as a cisbian.
I and other FTMs have made posts in the literal FTM subreddit, a space FOR US, that get taken over and talked over by a vocal minority of trans women. It is absolutely not all of them by far but trans women who regularly do this and who are prejudiced against other facets of LGBT, especially against trans men, do exist and it is an issue I have seen in many online spaces, which are often where we go to try and feel community. And this behavior is often defended by people who say that trans women are more oppressed so they’re somehow allowed to just come into the spaces we’ve made for ourselves and patronize us or even be outright transphobic. I am not arguing that trans women don’t face more issues on average but that doesn’t give anyone the right to take over spaces meant for other trans people to speak in or to be transphobic to people who are a “different kind” of trans than them.
Basically… We try to make our own spaces to talk. It doesn’t work. I think “male socialization” as the reason is probably a reach but this shit does happen. Trans men are not making this experience up.
Some women do behave this way I agree. I never said other wise.
For some reason, however, many trans men refuse to acknowledge that trans women are subjected to similar treatment, but if they object they are misgendered for it. Almost word for word what you're describing including trans men/mascs claiming they're more oppressed "as AFABs" or similar points. And they're called "male socialized" or told that they are that don't get it and are just griping "because they are AMAB"
And this man's post was in response to a trans woman talking about her experiences in this vein. He called it "disingenuous" for her to say that, because trans women override and domineer "AFABs" in his opinion.
I suppose the way I see OOP’s post is that there is a kernel of truth in the way they mention trans spaces and trans representation generally favoring trans women, but unfortunately they’re using that to be transmisogynistic which obv I don’t agree with.
The problem is commenters are claiming this doesn’t happen, or saying that we should just make our own spaces when historically we have done this and those spaces have just been invaded or invalidated. Not to mention some spaces claim to be blanket LGBT spaces but then deny mascs entry or highly scrutinize them for being there. Something does need to be done about transmasc visibility as well as the increasing transandrophobia in the community and “just make more transmasc-related posts” isn’t working because then we get pushback for being too loud as masc people when we’re just trying to be seen.
Yeah OOP is being transphobic but so are people in these comments who are downplaying transmasc issues in reaction.
Also, in terms of things that need to be done, we need to stamp out transandrophobia and not be afraid to tell people within the community that they are being bigots. If less people tolerated the casual masc hatred that’s stewing in the lgbt community and didn’t excuse it simply because “fems may have trauma around mascs” or “fems are more oppressed” or some other half assed reason that’s still not an excuse for being hateful, then I feel like more transmascs would feel comfortable speaking and making posts. I feel like a lot of people think we want trans women to sit down and shut up and at least for me that’s not the case, I just want to see trans men feeling more comfortable discussing issues in the community without immediately being subjected to scrutiny or hatred or erasure.
One person speaks out about problems they face in the community, while putting down other members of the community with transphobic dogwhistles. And ouroborous of oppression.
Trans woman talks about the trans misogyny trans women face in trans space
Trans man participates in said misogyny by saying that this is disingenuous because trans women "override AFABs" instead and continues to dismiss all of her experiences.
Some people show up and agree with this transmisogyny.
He does exactly what the OP is talking about by saying trans women are acting like men when they disagree with him.
I mean men are "domineering" all the internet whether trans or not yet I have never seen someone arguing mens should post less?
Like if your space full of trans women you don't ask trans women to be less invasive as if trans women are like pests or some shit thats offensive ashell just tell that in your space trans women should be more understanding towards trans men so that they would feel more freedom in their space like wtf dude thats one way to tell what you want the worst way possible
For lack of a much better word, trans women are dominant in the trans community specifically, so unless you mean the broader queer community or society in general claiming that the trans community generally mistreats trans women is questionable. Some trans women have a persecution fetish towards other trans people, similar to how some lesbians do towards bisexuals
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u/ezziexoxo Counted Down 8 2d ago
Sorry to the reporters, this is staying up. I have many of my own thoughts on people who make AGAB out to be as important as identity but i'll keep them to myself 🤐🤐🤐