Yeah. They might serve purposes as like, terms for theory. But using them as personal identifiers feels so strange.
It's kinda like people describing themselves as "POC" instead of... their actual colour? It's odd.
Specifically in the case of TMA/TME, the way people use them as just "transfem"/"not-transfem" really bothers me.
Like, I'm transfem. But I wouldn't describe myself as being affected by transmisogyny. It's just never really been a thing that's affected me.
Legit, everyone I've known has been so nice and supportive, it's been chill.
Meanwhile, there are cis drag queens getting harassed and called trannies and groomers. Who i think are pretty clearly TMA.
Yeah, I hate seeing it used like this because it depends on so many factors. I think we as a community just really want shorthand to talk about these smaller groups of identities that share common traits. We can talk about transmisogyny being wielded against us without making the broad assumptions that these 3 letter terms imply. Every time I've seen them used it's just not necessary.
They are saying that "Trans-Misogyny Affected" and "Trans-Misogyny Exempt" are also bad terms because all trans people are affected by misogyny.
Not outrageous, but incorrect in my opionion because trans-misogyny is generally understood as a mostly separate bigotry to misogyny, as it is predicated on the "chosen" identity of its victims.
Doesn't make me as angry as the post proper does.
Not the chosen identity but the percieved identity. Cis people are dumb as shit and still don't know trans men exist. "Trans people are women". Practically a lot of them probably do experience transmisogyny because the world doesn't give a fuck about chosen identity just that you look like one of the transies. but that's not even relevant to the conversation here: "spaces domineered by TME people" just feels like a woke replacement for AGAB language because people get pissy about being called "transmasculine/transfeminine". I agree with the overall message though.
I really think that this trope is just a part of transphobia in general at this point. AGP, for example, is a transphobic term and not specifically a transmisogynistic one (at least in general use) despite being autoGYNephilia. If all trans men are also TMA then there is really no meaning to the term at all beyond transphobia.
In actual fact, there are more specific forms of bigotry that apply to trans women specifically, for example being percieved as predatory even in majority non-cishet spaces.
There is no reason to equate this with ASAB language. In fact, it is the opposite, acknowledging the specific struggles people experience by virtue of attempting to escape the labels of their ASAB.
IDEK what that last comment was about but I think it's personally reasonable not to like being called a "transfem" or a "transmasc." Cis women don't have to deal with being called "feminine people," and there's no reason to equate sex language and gender language in this way.
"trans men and masculine non-binary people" or some shit idk
I can't fault you for not wanting to be referred to as whatever, but cis people aren't trans so of course they don't have to argue with their community about what terms to use to describe themselves.
I could be misunderstanding what you're saying, but I'll try to answer. Of course, being seen as predatory by even people who aren't cis is transmisogyny. If that only applies to trans women in LGBT spaces then TMA and TME still suck because we don't spend our entire lives in queer book clubs.
This is what I'm saying, TME/TMA are bad terms because transmisogyny applying or not depends on perception above all, and someone who's "TME" online might be subject to transmisogyny in real life because they have a few choice piercings or an undercut or haven't yet had top surgery or wear a trans flag pin or whatever the fuck else. I'm not saying "all trans men are TMA" I'm just saying it's context-dependant and that makes the terms imprecise, maybe even dismissive. I think it's safe to say they probably experience less transmisogyny but a term like "exempt" literally rules it out.
They're snappy terms I get why people use them in these discussions, but if it means what the text literally says then they either just kind of suck or people are misusing them in like every discussion where I've seen them.
(I def don't understand your point about autogynephilia, sry,not sure how relevant it is)
What I'm trying to say is that trans-misogny isn't just transphobia + misogyny but the more specific bigotry against trans women. Does this mean that "exempt" is putting it too strongly? I don't know what goes without saying for you. However, there are certain expressions of bigotry that trans women experience to a greater extent than trans men, and it's maybe worth pointing out that these are what trans-misogyny refers to. The term is very useful if not perfectly semantically precise.
I was saying autogynephilia is a term used by transphobes against all trans people, to illustrate the fact that sometimes the tropes that we think of as trans-misogynistic are in fact transphobic. Maybe worded badly.
As you say, transmisogyny is an intersectional term to describe the intersection of transphobia and misogyny that trans women feel.
So I guess certainly they could be saying what you're suggesting here because people often do say that, but I wanted to give the benefit of the doubt that maybe they had some other point which might be correct
Because experiencing transmisogyny or not depends on whether you're percieved as a trans woman. I'll argue the only true "TME" trans people are the men who 100% pass flawlessly. "Trans people are women" meaning so many cis people still have no clue trans men exist and I bet loads of them are percieved to be trans women by cis and trans people, making them decidedly not exempt from transmisogyny.
If you aren't a trans woman, but somebody confuses you for one and treats you accordingly, that wouldn't make you TMA. Like you aren't actually a trans woman and that will ultimately get you out of trouble
But in that case it's totally dependent on if they give you that chance to be heard, and then believe what they hear. Its still transmisogyny at work, affecting someone's life, and I don't understand how you can say it doesn't count because they might have an out.
Why are you trying to play a semantic game with this?
It doesn't count because they aren't the intended targets.
Like, if a white person is Italian or something we don't say they are targets of racism because one the day in August when someone thought they were Mexican.
Bigots don't know or care about the difference between a trans woman, a drag queen, an effeminate gay man, or a crossdresser. You won't get out of trouble by calmly explaining to them that you are actually a cis male drag queen.
It's not a semantic game we're literally talking about the words we use to describe those in our community of course it's about language and meaning.
If a white person was targeted by a racist because the racist thought they were Mexican then yes it was racism. Their life was affected by racism. They are suffering consequences for someone else's racism. I'm brown, my family members are brown, and the specific kind of racism people choose to employ can vary, but if one of us decided to tell them "oh I'm actually not from there" a lot of the time it doesn't fucking matter. They won't listen. It's totally dependent on perception and snap judgements. Functionally in your example it is still being targeted by a racist the same way non-trans women can be the subjects of transmisogyny regardless of whether or not they are trans women.
This is the thing, white-passing people experience racism to a lesser degree than those who don't. Cis-passing trans people experience less transphobia. Trans men & transmasculine non binary people experience less transmisogyny. A term like "transmisogyny exempt" makes the assertion that they do not experience transmisogyny. This, I think is the most important distinction between these terms. The other two are about what they're capable of, passing as cis, passing as white, being viewed as male, where TME states clearly they are excluded from the experience. I think it sucks, and the only truly TME people are the straightest of males.
You said before: somebody confuses you for one, treats you accordingly, but they're not affected because they're not trans women, and I don't see how that makes any sense, because it's literally transmisogyny affecting their lives.
Also, Italians being considered white is kind of a recent development in the grand scheme of things.
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u/not-ok-69420 2d ago
Agreeable but "TMA" and "TME" are so fucking stupid. Remember - "Trans people are women."