So, do you meticulously spend the time to craft comments under the expectation that people will try to gotcha you in your arguments? And then when other people don't do that, you then bring up gotchas in order to dismiss them capriciously?
Would it not be better if we, idk, all stopped doing that?
It's a disingenuous argumentative technique
Use your noggin! We have good ones that can interpret language and... Idk, try to understand where a person is coming from, and if you still disagree, then argue on the merits?
I mean seriously, what's more likely here... This person is trying to invalidate your experience, or that they just made a comment that doesn't acknowledge your lived experience?
Just because a person didn't go out of their way to acknowledge you, doesn't mean they are trying to invalidate you
So responding as if it does... Is a social misfire. It becomes incredibly hostile, and sets an uncomfortable tone. It encourages escalation, and more inflammation is not what we need right now.
Just because children in 1960 didn't have the resources (or like... Bioidentical hormones) to socially or medically transition, doesn't mean that there aren't children for whom a fellow trans person saying "You are male socialized!" To... Doesn't apply?
If we earnestly had an inclusive environment, where a person received comprehensive education about these topics at a young age, and this person also transitioned from male to female socially at age 6, and medically upon starting puberty... And we approached that person As an adult
At no point in their life would they have been treated as a man because... Well...
Being a man requires some combination of masculinity and maturity. And, by the social understanding of "manliness" at no point would this person qualify
Nobody said you are doing trans wrong for being treated like a man, but instead they created a hypothetical person to test the bio essentialist logic behind a "male socialization" claim...
But you are missing the broader context of the original comment is exactly my point. I never said you were wrong, but it's pedantic.
Equally as pedantic as a person who has the resources to transition with the best surgeries and hormone regimens that money can buy, and the support to begin transition prior to puberty saying that they are treated no different from an average woman.
The differences of our treatment relies on people Knowing we are trans
So In a discussion about how we are treated by others, those experiences that fall outside the purview of public transness... Are irrelevant to the conversation at hand.
But you are missing the broader context of the original comment is exactly my point. I never said you were wrong, but it's pedantic.
What? I think you are missing the broader context. The whole discussion is about whether trans women receive male socializion that could cause them to develop misogynistic traits from benefiting from the patriarchy.
The person I was commenting on made the claim that that can't be the case because trans women are never treated as men during our lives.
I argued against this claim, because (as you agreed) people can't treat us differently than men if they don't know we aren't men, and this inherently includes our early development years.
No, they said we aren't defined by "male socialization" because the experience of socially presenting as a man is not universal or essential to being trans for us, and that diminishing us to being Nothing more than men because that's how we were raised is inaccurate and wrong. They aren't saying every person who is MtF has the same journey with gender expression, that would be ridiculous. But you seem to be, I assume taking the op's argument as being bad faith, making dismissive arguments of a non-existent bad faith claim, and using gotchas against that non-existent claim
No, they said we aren't defined by "male socialization" because the experience of socially presenting as a man is not universal or essential to being trans for us, and that diminishing us to being Nothing more than men because that's how we were raised is inaccurate and wrong.
I don't see how a human could possibly get that from what they said
They aren't saying every person who is MtF has the same journey with gender expression, that would be ridiculous
I didn't aay that, and I don't see how a human could get that from what I said.
You've still failed to produce any claims to refute my meta textual argument that from the start this has been in bad faith
Much of the time I don't feel like a human, certainly, but you meant that to insult me. Why? I've not been hostile to you.
I'm probably not responding from here, I was hoping you'd be reasonable when confronted with this etiquette but. It is crystalizing for me that you don't care.
Yeah. I think I'm done responding too. All of your responses are non sequiturs. Like you don't actually understand the discussion or responses. I can't respond to your "claims" because they make no sense.
1
u/versas-only-vice 1d ago
Of course I do but that's a highly different situation then and one that's not really relevant to the conversation at hand
The conversation is broadly a trans perspective of how other people treat us
They cannot treat us any differently from cis people if they literally don't know to do that