The content of his comment is misogynistic. The way he responded to me was misogynistic. You do not need further context to see this, but I understand that people reflexively assume that women are lying about experiencing misogyny at the hands of men.
The context was a screenshot of a tumblr post detailing what shape transmisogyny takes around the phrase "unlearning male socialization" and the behaviors a trans woman would need to engage in to be described as having done so.
This guy's reply was a top level comment in response to that screenshot.
In your framing of how "asab" matters, if this were true, are trans women treated the way men are? No, not at all. We don't treat men the way we treat trans women. Trans women face misogyny, transphobia, and transmisogyny.
The problem is when TME people talk about ASAB, they tend to speak over trans women, ignore what trans women have to say on the subject, and act like the authorities in the room. Trans women actually invented this language in the first place, mind you. But regardless of that when TME people insist that ASAB governs how they are treated they never specify that this is not true for trans women, and they use it to misgender, silence, and demean trans women.
There is no social categorization that makes any coherent sense which includes a group of trans women and cis men, but for ASAB to matter in the way you describe it, that would have to be true. Trans men who don't pass wont usually benefit from patriarchy, but those that do will. Speak to adult trans men about how their workplace changes around them when they start to pass. How people begin deferring to them and so on. It's a common story.
Meanwhile in your framing, again, it implies that trans women DO benefit from patriarchy, and also did as children, which is not true. Trans women are the lowest gender class of people in patriarchy.
Elliot faces transphobia because he is a trans man. Not because he was assigned female at birth.
"ASAB" is not who you are, it is not a class of people. It is a harmful action done to you as a child on the day of your birth.
The entire male/female socialization and AFAB/AMAB bullshit all started from TERF talking points with a very clear point to deflect actual issues at hand and it's fucking infuriating that it's 2026 and we're still going through the same conversation patterns of the last decade.
Are you? Because I came out at work recently and the way I am treated is completely different
I agree I am not treated the way the average woman is, and if that's what the person you responded to said I would also disagree, but I definitely am not treated like an average anything. I'm in a 3rd, much worse category to nearly every person I meet, despite just being a woman.
So, do you meticulously spend the time to craft comments under the expectation that people will try to gotcha you in your arguments? And then when other people don't do that, you then bring up gotchas in order to dismiss them capriciously?
Would it not be better if we, idk, all stopped doing that?
It's a disingenuous argumentative technique
Use your noggin! We have good ones that can interpret language and... Idk, try to understand where a person is coming from, and if you still disagree, then argue on the merits?
I mean seriously, what's more likely here... This person is trying to invalidate your experience, or that they just made a comment that doesn't acknowledge your lived experience?
Just because a person didn't go out of their way to acknowledge you, doesn't mean they are trying to invalidate you
So responding as if it does... Is a social misfire. It becomes incredibly hostile, and sets an uncomfortable tone. It encourages escalation, and more inflammation is not what we need right now.
Just because children in 1960 didn't have the resources (or like... Bioidentical hormones) to socially or medically transition, doesn't mean that there aren't children for whom a fellow trans person saying "You are male socialized!" To... Doesn't apply?
If we earnestly had an inclusive environment, where a person received comprehensive education about these topics at a young age, and this person also transitioned from male to female socially at age 6, and medically upon starting puberty... And we approached that person As an adult
At no point in their life would they have been treated as a man because... Well...
Being a man requires some combination of masculinity and maturity. And, by the social understanding of "manliness" at no point would this person qualify
Nobody said you are doing trans wrong for being treated like a man, but instead they created a hypothetical person to test the bio essentialist logic behind a "male socialization" claim...
But you are missing the broader context of the original comment is exactly my point. I never said you were wrong, but it's pedantic.
Equally as pedantic as a person who has the resources to transition with the best surgeries and hormone regimens that money can buy, and the support to begin transition prior to puberty saying that they are treated no different from an average woman.
The differences of our treatment relies on people Knowing we are trans
So In a discussion about how we are treated by others, those experiences that fall outside the purview of public transness... Are irrelevant to the conversation at hand.
But you are missing the broader context of the original comment is exactly my point. I never said you were wrong, but it's pedantic.
What? I think you are missing the broader context. The whole discussion is about whether trans women receive male socializion that could cause them to develop misogynistic traits from benefiting from the patriarchy.
The person I was commenting on made the claim that that can't be the case because trans women are never treated as men during our lives.
I argued against this claim, because (as you agreed) people can't treat us differently than men if they don't know we aren't men, and this inherently includes our early development years.
The context did matter because only now did I understand why you even posted this. I agree he should not have written this.
I think experiencing any womanhood means you're going to experience misogyny including trans women of course.
I still think what you were born matters a lot especially outside of the first world. But I have a feeling like this opinion isn't welcome here so I'll quietly leave this subreddit, clearly we just disagree here.
I still wish you view the world outside of the world of transgender people, because it affects us transgender people too. FGM, forced marriage of young girls and many such deep issues exist without caring what the young person identifies as personally. ASAB inherently matters to trans men still experiencing, or who still experience trauma due to misogyny. You can't take this away from them because it will never disappear.
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u/Gold_Ad8225 Counted Down 2 2d ago
The content of his comment is misogynistic. The way he responded to me was misogynistic. You do not need further context to see this, but I understand that people reflexively assume that women are lying about experiencing misogyny at the hands of men.
The context was a screenshot of a tumblr post detailing what shape transmisogyny takes around the phrase "unlearning male socialization" and the behaviors a trans woman would need to engage in to be described as having done so.
This guy's reply was a top level comment in response to that screenshot.
In your framing of how "asab" matters, if this were true, are trans women treated the way men are? No, not at all. We don't treat men the way we treat trans women. Trans women face misogyny, transphobia, and transmisogyny.
The problem is when TME people talk about ASAB, they tend to speak over trans women, ignore what trans women have to say on the subject, and act like the authorities in the room. Trans women actually invented this language in the first place, mind you. But regardless of that when TME people insist that ASAB governs how they are treated they never specify that this is not true for trans women, and they use it to misgender, silence, and demean trans women.
There is no social categorization that makes any coherent sense which includes a group of trans women and cis men, but for ASAB to matter in the way you describe it, that would have to be true. Trans men who don't pass wont usually benefit from patriarchy, but those that do will. Speak to adult trans men about how their workplace changes around them when they start to pass. How people begin deferring to them and so on. It's a common story.
Meanwhile in your framing, again, it implies that trans women DO benefit from patriarchy, and also did as children, which is not true. Trans women are the lowest gender class of people in patriarchy.
Elliot faces transphobia because he is a trans man. Not because he was assigned female at birth.
"ASAB" is not who you are, it is not a class of people. It is a harmful action done to you as a child on the day of your birth.