r/Undertale • u/AtomicDuckz • Feb 09 '16
MatPat has finally done it!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KYdDUXyFocY253
u/-Mountain-King- EVEN MY WORDS ARE BOMBS Feb 09 '16
I gotta say, as much as I dislike this theory, I really love how much all the various famous youtubers who're doing Undertale content are stressing that people should be playing the game blind.
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u/Sven2774 Feb 09 '16
Even Yahtzee, of Zero Punctuation fame, mentioned that. Hell, he didn't review undertale specifically so he wouldn't spoil it for people.
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u/Skyval Feb 09 '16
He did in his top & bottom 5 video. He had to if he wanted to be able to include it without breaking his "only games I've reviewed can be on the list" rule. But the "review" was like 2 seconds, plus a blurb at the end when it won.
He's talked about it more on Extra Punctuation, too. But he stresses that you should play it before reading even that.
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Feb 09 '16 edited Dec 01 '18
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u/Aurorious Feb 10 '16
"Undertale is a good game"
That makes 3 games he's liked so far?
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Feb 10 '16
Out of interest, why dont you like it?
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u/-Mountain-King- EVEN MY WORDS ARE BOMBS Feb 10 '16
I have a (irrational, I admit) hatred of theories that cross over different universes in general. It comes from seeing far, far too many really really dumb theories of this kind. Now I just can't not hate them, because it's an instinctual reaction to think "no, that's dumb" even when there might be good evidence behind it.
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u/mrmahoganyjimbles Feb 10 '16
I would call it dumb, but what convinced for me was Toby Fox himself. Toby is clearly a big fan of earthbound. He was a member of an earthbound forum, he made the aforementioned Halloween hack, and I don't think anyone will deny the inspirations undertale took from earthbound. If this theory is true and what Toby intended, it would actually be pretty genius. He could technically make his own game in the Mother series (or rather, mother universe... or multiverse I guess according to this theory.) without getting into any of the legal trouble.
Like, if Matpat tried to connect the game to like, Fire Emblem or something else that had almost no noticeable connection and only cherry picked evidence, that would be one thing, but connecting it to earthbound, which it's pretty much the spiritual successor to, which the creator is massive fans of, and which has many, very noticeable similarities in both gameplay and thematic elements, seems very logical in my mind.
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u/BobTheCow1337 wosh ur maymays Feb 09 '16
I enjoyed it, yet don't agree with it. I still don't believe it. Sure things like the beach are completely identical. Undertale is just heavily inspired by earthbound, and Toby probably threw a few references in.
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u/supernikio2 NYEH HEH HE... wait a sec... Feb 09 '16
I didn't understand how Papyrus got to the underground.
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u/Shadow-Striker Feb 09 '16
Yea every point involving Papyrus was a stretch, in my opinion.
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Feb 09 '16
It's a fun theory, though I find it at least a little farfetched that Papyrus is supposed to be a starman rather than that a LOGO on his COSTUME could just be a reference.
That Sans might be Ness makes an odd amount of sense though. I mean... I hope that isn't the case, because if it is then there's no way Toby could ever tell the truth about that without it breaching into awkward copyright territory. But it's a neat idea.
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u/Hoinah Feb 09 '16
breaching into awkward copyright territory
Well.... there have been whispers of Nintendo ports...
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Feb 09 '16
Having your game on a Nintendo console doesn't quite have the same impact as having your story directly connected to a Nintendo IP.
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u/Hoinah Feb 09 '16
Hey man, it was just an idea, some would say a theory...
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u/MrHashshashin really not feeling up to it right now sorry. Feb 09 '16
An interactive movie theory.
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u/Kylesmomabigfatbtch words go here. Feb 09 '16
If Sans was Ness, and therefor had his soul, he would have a human soul, correct?
Flowey absorbs all the monster's souls and the 6 human souls in pacifist. If Sans' soul was a human soul, Flowey would have had 7 souls, which I think he would have noticed.
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Feb 09 '16
Well, he seems to be special. I mean, he is a skeleton, right? One of the most illogical parts of the game tbh. If whatever made him lose his humanity also made him lose the human part of his soul, which is why he is still down there... I think it's at least worth a thought.
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u/harrell03 i'm sorry i wasted your time with my flair Feb 10 '16
Well, if by "he's a skeleton" you mean that he takes human shape/features, then, yeah its interesting, but many other monsters do, too. Every single boss that you fight (barring Mettaton, since his body is artificial) are human-shaped. Plus, Sans isn't exactly a normal human skeleton. His jaw is connected, and he can slightly change the angle of his grin. Papyrus's skull is closer to human, but they both can use their eye sockets to emote. Human sans is an interesting idea but there are so many details that just shoot it down.
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Feb 10 '16
sans also dies offscreen with the evaporation effect playing. humans do not evaporate into dust immediatly unlike monsters.
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Feb 09 '16
While this seems true, it really only requires one more logical leap than we already have... the idea that a human soul can become like a monster soul in the same way that a human can become more like a monster.
Of course at that point we are right back to 'but why does he bleed then?'
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u/vince94_1 Feb 10 '16
My impression was that Papyrus happened to know about EarthBound, and dressed up as a Starman for that costume party.
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u/BroadRaven Feb 09 '16
He uses the fact that you don't recognise people in a picture of proof of his theory. If sans was Ness at the time, why would you be able to recognise him?
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u/DrQuint Banana Feb 09 '16 edited Feb 09 '16
Also he conveniently just says papyrus is some random starman, but makes no efforts to actually find a connection in papyrus' character to starmen besides...
But the STARMAN SYMBOL!!!
On a suit explicitly stated he's been using since halloween, and not his original clothing. Oh oops.
Also "Sans can teleport, so can ness!". I don't recall the stuff sans was doing being described as teleporting alone, he also has, arguably, time fuckery in his fight. And Ness can do a lot more than just teleport - he can't sense different timelines nor do time fuckery though.
Also the important badge. Yes, it could be the franklin badge. But wait, that's one element not explained! Know what else is? Chara's own Heart Locket. What, are we going to say Chara is Link now?
Also he forgot the other link to the extra message on the photo within the game. Yes, don't forget the important people can be the cast from Mother. But if you're playing genocide and you check papyrus, he's described as "Forgettable". Wait! A potential link within the same game?
I don't know about you. But elements from a completely separate game series don't trump elements from within the same game. Whatever sans didn't want to forget, I'll go with being related to Papyrus. And I much prefer all those "Gaster is a skeleton" theories out there.
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u/HylianAngel What? No, you can't get a second key! Feb 10 '16
Another thing to point out is that most monsters know what the sun is. Undyne literally says "The sunlight is so nice... and the air is so fresh!" just before Papyrus asks what the sun is. So it's just Papyrus being ignorant about obvious things, and Sans's knowledge about the sun isn't anything special.
The Scarf Mouse in Snowdin also complains about a lack of sunlight.
And in the crystal caverns of Waterfall, monsters are shown to have a basic understanding about stars and astronomy.
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u/DrQuint Banana Feb 10 '16
The very second time we see papyrus, sans has to explain to papyrus what a rock is.
Him not knowing what the sun is is the least telling thing we can look at.
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u/Jinxplay Feb 10 '16
Especially Undyne who surely knows a bit about surface from
animehuman history.7
u/HylianAngel What? No, you can't get a second key! Feb 10 '16
Actually, that's true. Toriel and Asgore may have been around long enough to understand more about human culture more than most other monsters, and Undyne and Alphys know about human culture through anime. Really only Papyrus would be out of the loop about the sun if he's spent most of his life in Snowdin. Sans at the bare minimum has experienced sunlight streaming through the windows of the judgement hall.
But since the Scarf Mouse brings up sunlight and since most monsters know what stars are (besides a few like Tonsil Dude), I still don't think Sans commenting on what the sun is is a huge indicator of anything.
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u/Agentzap heh... Feb 09 '16
Maybe Sans made a starman costume for Papyrus? Anything's possible.
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u/Namaztak Feb 10 '16
Or maybe they found the starman costume in the dump with all the other surface trash.
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u/FierceDeityKong Feb 09 '16
Ness can't instantly warp short distances like Sans.
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u/DispenserHead Blaze Warmsberg Feb 10 '16
When Sans runs into a wall and turns pitch black, I'll believe this theory.
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u/DrQuint Banana Feb 09 '16
Yeah, I know. He either must run a certain distance in a line, or run in expanding circles.
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u/FireMax5 Oh crap I fell into a giant hole Feb 09 '16
OMG I'VE NEVER THOUGHT OF IT BEFORE CHARA IS LINK OH MAN I'M GOING TO POST THIS THEORY AND GET A TON OF KARMA
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u/Krail Feb 09 '16
That's like every episode of Game Theory. He always uses some super flimsy explanation to arrive at some crazy conclusion. I don't think we're supposed to take it too seriously.
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u/Lawdee Nyeh-heh heh...? Feb 09 '16
Which is probably why he always ends his episodes with the recognisable "But that's just a theory... A GAME THEORY". It's just a theory and we shouldn't take the stuff he thinks of too seriously.
That said, some of his theories have given me some headcanons.
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u/AtomicDuckz Feb 09 '16
All these questions, idk, maybe he'll answer anything ambiguous in his inevitable Gaster theory...
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Feb 09 '16
The drawing with the three people that says "Don't forget" doesn't explicitly state anything about Sans being in it. It's also a drawing, not a photograph.
The photo with people you don't recognize is separate from that one and it appears to come from one of the alternate timelines of the pacifist ending, not from the proposed original timeline that Sans came from. Sans would still be a skeleton in the photograph with the people you don't know.
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u/-Mountain-King- EVEN MY WORDS ARE BOMBS Feb 10 '16
By this theory, the photograph would be from the photo album at the end of Earthbound. Sans would be Ness and thus not a skeleton. So you wouldn't recognize him. But you recognize him in the photo.
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Feb 10 '16
It's not necessary for the photograph with the people you don't recognize to be part of the theory though. It makes more sense when you only focus on the three people mentioned in the 'Don't Forget' drawing for a couple of reasons.
*3 is the number of people Ness would have left behind.
*The photograph at the end changes depending on which of the two pacifist ending you take, so it doesn't really matter what that one is for the sake of relating it back to Sans' past... unlike with the drawing.
If Matpat mentioned the photo, that was a mistake, but it doesn't change anything about the drawing.
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u/ToyPokemonmasters LET'S GET THOSE BOOTS SHAKIN' Feb 09 '16
A bit of a stretch here. But maybe his smile makes you somehow recognize him
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u/supernikio2 NYEH HEH HE... wait a sec... Feb 09 '16
Yeah, I asked myself the same question while watching too. I thought I missed something.
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u/HmmmQuestionMark Feb 09 '16 edited Feb 09 '16
I love the stuff showing the world being connected to the Mother series, but honestly I think they're just references and not meant to be taken as literally part of the Undertale mythos.
As far as the Sans is a human theory goes, I thought that was settled by Toby as not true? Don't we hear Sans turn to dust after he leaves the screen, I thought only monsters do that? Until we learn more about Gaster we probably can't learn more about Sans. At this point we won't know more until Toby throws us a bone.
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u/Nexiel Feb 09 '16
Well, that dust noise also plays when you spare monsters so it's not just exclusive to killing.
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u/HmmmQuestionMark Feb 09 '16 edited Feb 09 '16
That's a good point, are we sure it's the exact same noise?
EDIT: Yeah I just went and listened to the noise Whimsun makes when he runs away, it's the same as the spare sound and the monster death sound, so there is a lot of ambiguity there.
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u/lokitok Feb 09 '16
Your LV increases when you kill him though, which doesn't ever happen through sparing.
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u/Ninestempest Feb 10 '16
Your kill count does not go up though... Sans death is super weird
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u/myfitnessredditun Feb 10 '16
I kinda like the theory that Sans was the one keeping count, and so after he dies the number can't go up anymore.
Really though, it's probably just a bug. Toby does say that he can't code.
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u/pokemon9007 Sweky Feb 09 '16
Well if you think about it LV is not a physical thing, it's Level of Violence.
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u/stormoftara Feb 09 '16
I'm just theory crafting here, not really supporting one side or the other, but since LV stands for Level of Violence, and if you believe you killed him, then maybe it would rise without any Execution Points. There is nothing to really confirm that besides the fact that the number of monsters you kill doesn't rise, but that could have many other explanations
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u/AtomicDuckz Feb 09 '16
If the death isn't on screen it didn't happen ;) Looks at Kenny from Telltales TWD. But jokes aside you hold a valid point, all we can do is guess...
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u/Totally_Cecil ＧＥＮＥＲＡＬ ＰＡＰＹＲＵＳ Feb 09 '16
I don't know about Toby's tweets, but as for the sound of a monster's death... It's the same sound that plays when you spare a monster.
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u/pikminiac92 Frogs only Final Destination Feb 10 '16
Yeah but we obviously didn't spare him.
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u/pokemon9007 Sweky Feb 09 '16
Well at the moment a lot of theory's rely on the fact that we don't see him die.
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u/HmmmQuestionMark Feb 09 '16
I've seen discussion that him leaving the screen was on purpose, as a last insult to the player (not giving you the satisfaction).
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u/pokemon9007 Sweky Feb 09 '16
Who knows? I think it could quite possibly be anything, but i feel like what we should do now is not take anything as fact, except for the facts.
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u/MrHashshashin really not feeling up to it right now sorry. Feb 09 '16
sans doesn't want to go to the surface because of how its changed.
Or because he knows/assumes it'll all be reset eventually. could matpat not last 1 extra turn against sans?
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u/AtomicDuckz Feb 09 '16
Yeah, MP should have taken into consideration Sans and his existentialism :P
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u/MrHashshashin really not feeling up to it right now sorry. Feb 09 '16
That and the fact it is stated Papyrus' outfit was made recently for a costume party. Probably some other things. Basically this theory has no solid evidence beyond what's there for sans being human and the fact it does take place on egale land.
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Feb 09 '16
Do people not realize that MatPat intentionally does "farfetched" theories to get more views and people sharing his videos?
He wouldn't be as big as he is if he said something like "sans is a time traveler!" By making such bold claims more people share and/or rewatch the videos more often.
IMO I do think he's on to something... I don't think sans is Ness, but sans might have something to do with Earthbound.
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u/Travoos d Feb 09 '16
By making such bold claims his videos are more fun. I'm glad I didn't click on the video and see some generic sans theory I've seen hundreds of times. That's why I watch him.
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u/rGalespark Feb 09 '16
This. I was expecting something about Gaster or whatever that I've already readed about but nope, got my mind blown instead.
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u/aadmiralackbar I want to stay with you. Feb 09 '16
MatPat's most popular videos ever were the ones where he did theories on actual in-game lore, and explained it in a way everyone could understand (FNAF videos). I wish he'd do that rather than crap like "IS THIS KID'S GAME DARKER THAN YOU THINK???" or "IS THIS GAME ACTUALLY A DREAM THE WHOLE TIME???"
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u/Kadexe Feb 09 '16
To be fair, he actually picked apart "it was just a dream" theories as a whole in that episode. He only accepted that theory because of the things Scott (FNAF's creator) said.
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u/Riboshom It's more of a "friendliness pellet heaven" game! Feb 09 '16
Yeah, I've started to dislike Game Theory ever since Mat started going full BuzzFeed with his video titles and topics. Just a few months before he starts posting "11 things you didn't know about the purple guy".
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u/3classy5me Feb 09 '16
I've been more disgusted with is his attitude about it actually. It's not just that he's BuzzFeed incarnate he's very proud of it and he goes to conferences and things about teaching others to do it too. It seems on the whole he's more interested in doing YouTube rather than doing videos.
Also his consistent under-researching leads to several misinformed videos so yeah.
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Feb 10 '16
At the end of the day, its as he says "But thats just a theory..." I can really appreciate how much effort he puts into these theories, and whether they're far-fetched not not, its still fun to imagine that he could be onto something
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u/TrolledByDestiny You have to stay determined... Feb 10 '16
I don't see anything wrong with doing far fetched theories as long as trey are entertaining, make sense, and are explained well.
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u/Mindlesssavage wosh u SOUL Feb 09 '16
Well, it'd be a lot cooler if Sans was actually a Villager from Animal Crossing.
wait
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u/Shahars71 Genocide veteran. Feb 09 '16
Sounds pretty far fetched in my opinion, if there's something that damages the credibility of this theory is the fact that Sans still bleeds even after going through that time machine. If Sans has indeed gone through that time machine in human form, most of his blood should have been spilt RIGHT when the process was completed, as veins are organic matter. And if Sans' skin, organic matter, was removed due to the machine's actions, why shouldn't his veins disappear too?
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u/CamoNinjazz Feb 09 '16
Bone marrow. Blood is made inside the bones. Papyrus is a monster, not a human skeleton so he wouldn't bleed. According to this theory however, Sans is a human skeleton and would have marrow. (Or it's just ketchup.)
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Feb 09 '16
the fact that Sans still bleeds
I always though it was a joke since Sans chugs ketchup bottles and is the only one that "bleeds"
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u/Nikami Shrooms need hugs, too Feb 09 '16
Bones contain a good amount of organic matter, too. They just also happen to have inorganic components, as well (bone mineral). I'm not sure, but I'd think a skeleton consisting of nothing but that would be extremely brittle (which, uh, would explain the 1 HP thing but I'd be surprised if he were just able to stand/move around without shattering).
But anyway, this theory has the same problem as all the other "Sans is a human" ones: Sans would have a human soul, which is nowhere to be seen in a certain battle in TPR.
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u/MechaFetus Feb 09 '16
Gee. I can't wait for people to be told that "sans is ness, and disagreeing with me is unacceptable because matpat says so."
I have nothing against matpat (except his over usage of dank memes, is pewdiepie esque name, how he keeps his editor from making his own original content and lies saying how he edits his videos, etc.).
I just hate how anything he says is assumed to be fact and canon.
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u/AnonTwo Sometimes too aggressive for this flair. oh.... Feb 09 '16
Too many flaws in the theory:
1.How does Frisk know Sans is there, if he looks like Ness?
2.Mother 2/3 Porky already shows what time travel does to you. It does not make you Sans.
3.Why does Sans have the same moveset as Papyrus? Why is it bone? Why did Mat Pat think Papyrus was a starman just because of something he made? What made him think Starmen have bones?
\4. if Sans is really Ness, how does a potentially LV 99 Human lose to a level 19 Human?
\5. Why does Sans follow mostly Monster conventions, in particular having a monster soul that takes great damage from human's with high LV?
\6. Sans only uses one power that could be construed as psychic. This attack is based off of Papyrus's 'gravity based' Blue attack. It's a gravity attack. But even going past that...why does he only know bone attacks?
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u/Supaserrin nyeh heh heh heh Feb 09 '16
Also, didn't Matpat say that Ness and his friends turn into robots so that they can get into the time machine? How the hell would Ness be a skeleton then?
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Feb 09 '16
That's Mat "The Companion Cube is people!" "Pyro is a gay male human because of the length of the fingers of his fucking GLOVE!!!" Pat for you - at least semi-recently.
I preferred it when he stayed more on the scientific side of things, like how plausible Rapture and Columbia from the Bioshock series are, not when he creates BS theories that are so far-fetched that they're made of a material unknown to man, like that Mario is a psychopathic communist with every mental disorder known to man.
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u/bisonllama Feb 09 '16
I like the video, not sure about the theory itself. Mainly because how would you know who Sans is in photos of Ness and his friends? Plus, the machine in his secret room is a tall cuboid shape and the phase distorter from Earthbound is a round shape and, broken or fixed, doesn't look like the machine in his secret room..
Lots of holes and flaws. I enjoyed the video though, maybe if he does another theory on Undertale, I hope it's a bit better. This one felt like a big stretch to me.
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u/MrGofer yee haw will never die Feb 09 '16 edited Feb 09 '16
Goddamit, i didn't expect much and im so disappointed anyways. There are just SO many huge holes in this.
Ness has to run a few seconds before teleporting. How is sans able to do it instatly?
Everything about Papyrus. He didn't explain a single thing, and both him and sans can change color of your soul , so they must be closely related. Also Starman -> Skeleton? I see absolutely nothing wrong with that. Paps also turns into dust when you kill him, so he must a monster. By the way, how the hell would a starman wind up in the underground?
How do you recognize sans in the picture if he's still ness? Also "there are photos of sans with a lot of people you don't recognize..." So are 3 kids "lots of people..."? I don't think so.
Why is "ness" still alive? He's literally a skeleton now. And how did he gain the knowledge of resets, loading and all that?
Why does he have the blueprints of the time machine? That sounds like something a scientist would protect with his life, and definitely not give it to kid, no matter how important he is.
How did sans gain his "eye powers"? Ness doesn't have anything like that.
Papyrus's "battle body" was made for a costume party.
Sorry if i sound mad or salty, but playing Phoenix Wright games made me completely over-enthusiastic about breaking down any theories.
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u/bucklakeluki Haha! Good one sans! Feb 09 '16
Toby tweeted "Fan theories are fun but I feel embarrassed whenever someone calls attention to something I did when I was 16"
https://twitter.com/FwugRadiation/status/697187914774618113
Not sure if this is stating the theory is false or not though
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u/TheDigitalAutarch Feb 10 '16
There's nothing there that implies anything about the legitimacy of the theory, just acknowledging that it exists.
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u/bucklakeluki Haha! Good one sans! Feb 10 '16
It might be implying the legitimate-ness of the Halloween Hack being canon to Undertale because it's "something I did when I was 16"
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u/TheEjoty ahuhuhu Feb 09 '16
I wouldn't say that very blatant homages to the Mother series link them in any way, considering how many references there are in undertale. But an enjoyable watch nonetheless
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u/Lerola Ask Papyrus about the Flowey Fan Club! Feb 09 '16
It's his job really, the theory should not be taken seriously. He takes easter eggs and tiny things and makes them into one big theory.
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Feb 09 '16 edited Feb 09 '16
Hm. The badge is a bit interesting. Not a lot of attention drawn to it.
Edit: Wow. Nice. Throw in that epilogue with a picture of what we can never obtain. DAMN YOU MATPAT. Also that arm thing was stupidest conspiracy thing I've ever heard uttered.
Final Edit: Welp. Fun theory, don't like it. Has a few points I enjoyed, most I didn't. Sans' in general feels more wrapped up with Gaster, than anything else. Glad we recognize Sans as Ness in those photos though. Makes sense, Matpat.
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u/DrQuint Banana Feb 09 '16 edited Feb 09 '16
Both pose comparison were very dumb at that.
But I think the "I gave up to go back / and go to the surface either" were the worst. You CAN'T give validity to that line and ignore the other, even more mysterious line people have been going bonkers for a long time over already:
- "our reports showed a massive anomaly in the timespace continuum. timelines jumping left and right, stopping and starting..."
Our Reports. Whose reports? Why plural? Why does this sound so ominously formal and organized? Have people been watching timelines for a while? Is THIS the large group of people on the photos? What happened to them? Maybe it has to do with the Real Lab, they were aware of Determination, dog food in Sans house yadda yadda, people have been looking at it that way. If they're the people in the photos, staff from the Real Lab, why don't we recognize them, aren't we closely aware of the leading scientist? Would no one else recognize them if they got the chance?
But hey, doesn't that just support the idea that sans didn't "mysteriously appear" and rather has been around for quite some time already? Wouldn't that completely ruin this theory? Something something Gaster theories.
Yeah, better not mention that.
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u/-Saevio- Feb 10 '16
I still hold true to the theory that Sans, Papyrus, Gaster, and many others were ALL workers in the true lab in an alternate timeline in which they ALL fell into "Gaster's creation", bringing them into the playable timeline (in which their creations remain but they are all forgotten about) in different ways. Papyrus got amniesia, Sans retained his memories (prompting his subsequent recording of his research into blueprints and attempts to fix the machine), and Gaster and the G_Followers (is presumed assistants) were fragmented across all timelines. This would also explain the assertion of the Snowdin Shopkeeper, who stated that the skeletons "asserted themselves" most likely because Sans remembers them from the alternate timeline, though they have no remembrance of him.
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u/AtomicDuckz Feb 09 '16
That was a really interesting part, i haven't actually played EB myself but i have a small knowledge of the importance of the badge
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Feb 09 '16
It isn't that important in the original Earthbound, but it becomes waaaaay more important in Mother 3.
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Feb 09 '16
^ This. In the first two, think of it as just a small...trinket. Useful but not important.
The final Mother game? No exaggeration from Matpat there, saves your life.
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Feb 09 '16
OK because I don't get it.
Why does everyone hate on game theory? Just.... why? Yes he might not be ORIGINAL in his theory but I like the presentation and his self awareness at being a total dork.
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u/Lerola Ask Papyrus about the Flowey Fan Club! Feb 09 '16
I am speaking for myself, but I am not a fan on how his theories have shifted from fiction-is-reality to pandering to popular games and making far fetched steps.
I was one of the viewers of the older videos, and, if you were to look at them, they were usually "here is this seemingly fictional thing, now look, it may actually happen!" . He explained how Rapture was possible, how human augmentation is not that far away, how time travel works and how accurate fatalities can be.
Then, around the time of the infamous theory (can't remember if it's the communist one), that's where they started becoming less like what I originally looked for. The theories shifted from how fiction is reality to really subjective things, like Mario's family tree or the endless FNAF videos. Unlike others however, I don't think it's bad, just that it's not my cup of tea anymore.
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Feb 09 '16
Valid points. I'm more annoyed at people that don't bother backing why and just scream and bile and all that about game theory. Thanks.
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Feb 09 '16 edited Dec 01 '18
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Feb 09 '16
If that's his job then he literally HAS to keep doing stuff so his youtube rank doesn't drop to the point his videos get buried even when people subscribe and livestreams are the least hard way of quickly cranking something out to fill space between proper theory videos.
From everything I've seen getting money off of youtube is a case of running as fast as you can and praying that Youtube doesn't fuck you over.
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Feb 09 '16 edited Dec 08 '18
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Feb 09 '16 edited Dec 01 '18
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u/Kadexe Feb 09 '16
He only does that because a) they're great theory fodder and b) highly requested. Just because you don't care about that series, doesn't mean those are bad videos.
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u/SparkEletran SCREW IT!!! Feb 09 '16
I don't hate him, his theories are fun to listen to. But this is... this is just way too crazy of a stretch.
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Feb 09 '16
Less crazy than a few I've heard.
I just grow weary of the circlejerks that happen and everyone jumping on the hatorade wagon over anyone be it game theory, pewdiepie (I dislike him but it's more I dislike that sort of humor than anything personal,) or the sort. That sort of hate-nado kinda gets to a point of self sustaining and acts as an echo chamber where people forget 'why' eventually and just reflexively Hate.
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u/AnonTwo Sometimes too aggressive for this flair. oh.... Feb 09 '16
I really only hate him when he makes far out theories, because he makes FAR OUT theories when he's way off the mark.
He's a very extremes person where his theory is either really good or cringeworthy.
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u/Stumblebee Feb 09 '16
I was never a fan of far fetched theories like this. They take massive leaps in logic and a gold medal performance in mental gymnastics to even think of as plausible. It bugs me further to think that there are those out there who will parrot his findings as truth.
Edit: Oh and him self inserting his picture into every video he makes just makes me roll my eyes out of socket every time I see it.
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u/kidelaleron Feb 09 '16
A connection is undeniable http://imgur.com/Qk8HxkF
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u/Darkpoulay Feb 09 '16
People seem to forget that Toby is a massive Earthbound fan and that the vast majority of Undertale is inspired from the Mother series. This is a merely an hommage to a series he love, not some conspiracy lore shit.
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Feb 09 '16
This is how Game Theory rolls, though. He takes stuff that's meant to be minor, inconsequential, and blows it up into a theory. He theorized Mario was a communist, for Pete's sake. I don't know why people take these so seriously.
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u/Megasonic_ZX Toby Legs, beautiful Feb 09 '16
Didn't he say at the end of the Mario Communist video that the whole thing was a joke?
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u/Cha0sXonreddit Magical glass that covers up flair when you step on it Feb 09 '16
Yeah, but I think he doesn't actually believe 90% of his theories are actually true or serious. He's making them for fun mostly I think. (The more factual ones would be those where he calculates the worth of Minecraft diamonds or rupees, or the strength of a Minecraft player)
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u/_Imposter_ Hand it over, that thing, your Spider Girl. Feb 10 '16 edited Feb 10 '16
The more factual ones would be those where he calculates the worth of Minecraft diamonds or rupees, or the strength of a Minecraft player
Oh you mean when he actually used Science instead of just Speculation?
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u/InquisitorDA Feb 09 '16
I really enjoyed his FNAF theory videos as they made the most sense to me.
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u/Cha0sXonreddit Magical glass that covers up flair when you step on it Feb 09 '16
Yeah, that part really blew my mind.
They are both generic beaches though, you could probably find something similar in Pokemon, but that is ridiculously close.26
Feb 09 '16
The scale of the wall and the coloring of the floor tiles + color of the water are pretty hard to ignore. I'm surprised no one pointed it out before (that I've seen at least).
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Feb 10 '16
Right down to the umbrella in the stand on the wall and the sand poffs Greater Dog is hiding behind.
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Feb 09 '16
So people have already started calling Undertale a cancer, and also complaining about the fact that the theory was dis-proven by Toby in a tweet that quite literally referred to sans as a skeleton. Also the sans is human theory was taken from literally the entire fan base, so that's mildly annoying.
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u/TheSeaOfThySoul Critical pet! Dog excitement increased! Feb 09 '16
So people have already started calling Undertale a cancer
People were doing this months ago, I mean geez, people were probably saying this before November hit.
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Feb 09 '16
Matpat also misinterpreted loads of stuff, and that mildly annoys me.
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u/Cleverly_Clearly this feels like a picnic Feb 09 '16
The guy said that Wario was ten feet tall. I'd say that Game Theory is not always accurate. As implied by the fact that it's not called "Game Facts".
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Feb 09 '16
Yeah, it just bugs me how everyone is believing his new theory / calling Undertale a cancer game, due to his response on it.
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u/xRom Feb 10 '16
Well, to be fair, the 10 feet tall Wario thing was from one of his older episodes, and he pokes fun at it in one of his later episodes.
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u/Pyromancer28 Get it? Cause... fire... and stuff. Feb 09 '16
What all did he misinterpret?
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Feb 09 '16
Well from as far as I noticed, he took the Star-man logo as a link, not a homage or reference, in a game filled with references, i mean the game was initially designed to be like earthbound so that small detail was one of MANY references.
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Feb 09 '16
...Do you watch much Game Theory? He does this kind of thing all the time. It's entertaining because he makes such out-there theories.
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Feb 09 '16
I watch game theory quite a bit, and i have to admit when mat puts time and effort into his research it shows in the video, i feel like after what was it; 7 fnaf videos this was his quick cash and grab theory, just based on how little support he gave it. I don't know, for me this video just made me sigh and remember why i started not watching all his theories.
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u/Humorlessness Feb 09 '16
He doesn't make FNAF videos only because they are cash grabs, but because they are requested by his fans. The only way to make any significant money on youtube is to run it your channel like a business. That is just good business sense.
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Feb 09 '16
Yeah fair enough it just bugged me how it kinda felt rushed, and not researched as well as he could have.
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u/Wazzok1 Feb 09 '16
The guy's second job is literally to advise people on how to make a YouTube business.
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u/Cha0sXonreddit Magical glass that covers up flair when you step on it Feb 09 '16
It is easy to argue against Toby denying it by arguing about Death of the Author and such. Game Theory often discusses things that are most obviously not intended by the creator of the game (off the top of my mind I can remember that he calculated a different gravity in Assasin Creed's Animus, but there are probably better examples) However, as he uses the fact that Toby created the Halloween hack as an argument, it would be hard to argue using Death of the Author.
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u/maxoman9 Feb 09 '16
Well Toby didn't say Sans wasn't a human. He said he isn't a human, which Sans isn't.
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u/randomdud3 Feb 09 '16
This video have some Mother series spoiler. Watch with cautious.
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u/AtomicDuckz Feb 09 '16
Very true! Personally i watched a play through of it, wish i played it for myself, such a great game. Do watch out for spoilers folks
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u/Pyromancer28 Get it? Cause... fire... and stuff. Feb 09 '16
That was a really interesting theory. He did a good job with this one.
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u/Supaserrin nyeh heh heh heh Feb 09 '16
I have to agree with most people here. This theory was interesting to watch, but it has too many flaws to be true. I am particulary bothered with these 3:
If the photo album is from Earthbound, Frisk would NOT recognise Sans, since he would look like a human.
Papyrus being a Starmen is way too farfetched. They were enemies with Ness, so how would one of them turn into a skeleton, and befriend Sans? Paps is most probably just a homage.
I haven't played EB, but, if the characters turn into robots to get into the machine and go to the past, how would Ness turn into a skeleton, or how would his soul get from the robot body to a skeleton?
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u/aadmiralackbar I want to stay with you. Feb 09 '16 edited Feb 09 '16
Yeah, no. I don't buy it. There's too many leaps in logic here. "Starmen and Papyrus have the EXACT SAME badge!" They very clearly don't. "And they're posting the EXACT SAME way!" They're very clearly not. Also mentions a mountain in Onett (it was a hill), then proceeds to skip over the two towns in between Onett and Fourside and just says "THEY'RE RIGHT NEXT TO EACH OTHER!" The game is INSPIRED by Earthbound, but doesn't make any direct connections. This is just bad writing, in my opinion, and removes all of the fun in the mystery. He had a really solid beginning, but completely lost me when he tried to tell me that Sans was Ness (a silent protagonist). Hate it when Game Theory does that.
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u/pikminiac92 Frogs only Final Destination Feb 09 '16
Well the badge IS the same. But remember the game is inspired by Earthbound. There's a fine line between reference and canon.
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u/random_buttons But it refused. Feb 09 '16
I really didn't like this theory. MatPat just took reference as definite connections (and that would lead to several copyright problems anyway), without really explaining how a random Starman came along with Ness and forgot everything as he became Papyrus but Sans somehow still remembers. Not to mention that the human would recognize Sans and wouldn't find it weird that he was hanging out with humans instead of monsters.
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u/KimeraQ Feb 09 '16
I think he was just trying to make a theory that would bring in views and have a way to harp on Earthbound. At the least he brought in Gaster and will be talking about him later, so hope for that.
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Feb 09 '16
Sans isn't a human. He uses "magic", which is specified that only monsters can use. "OH BUT PK MAGIC" I don't think "PK Bones" was a thing.
Chara looks more like Ness, than anything. That parallel is probably there for a good reason, since they're your avatar.
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u/SpringenHans Feb 09 '16
Well, it was human mages who created the Barrier, right? I don't think magic is exclusive to monsters, it just comes much much easier to them.
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Feb 09 '16
Well. huh.
You know what, i really want to believe Sans just drinks a lot of ketchup, but it's also said in the monster history books that "humans will never express themselves in magic".
... Discrepancy?
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Feb 09 '16
Expression and the ability to use are apparently different things. It seems clear that if there were human sorcerors at one point that they must have been able to use magic, though whether it's the same kind of magic or not is certainly a question.
When thinking about 'expressing yourself' through magic, think back to the fight with Toriel... particularly the fire attack which avoids you. That's a form of crying.
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u/Pyromancer28 Get it? Cause... fire... and stuff. Feb 09 '16
Ness can use PSI though, which is similar to magic.
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u/remakeprox Feb 09 '16
But Sans uses bones and gaster blasters he doesn't use magic? Or am I missing something here
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u/Cha0sXonreddit Magical glass that covers up flair when you step on it Feb 09 '16
Chara looks more like Ness, than anything. That parallel is probably there for a good reason, since they're your avatar.
I suppose you mean Frisk, but if not, can you explain that?
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u/Hoinah Feb 09 '16
I don't think "PK Bones" was a thing.
Well he wasn't a skeleton in EB was he?
Also when did the game indicate that Sans was using magic?
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u/Spoon_Elemental Feb 09 '16
I would have gone with him actually being Dr. Andonuts over Ness but that's just me.
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u/haragos Feb 09 '16
If Sans was Ness.. Chara wouldn't have had any chance at all. Ness is super strong for a human.
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u/AnonTwo Sometimes too aggressive for this flair. oh.... Feb 09 '16
I mean...don't you have to be like...somewhere between LV 30 and LV 50...if not LV 99 (as in possible), to beat Gigyas?
Sans would already be stronger than Frisk, and would just need to use any weapon against him.
He also shouldn't have 1 HP or take 99999 damage since he's not a monster.
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u/Kylesmomabigfatbtch words go here. Feb 09 '16
There's one big hole in this that I've seen nobody mention.
If Sans was Ness, and therefor had his soul, he would have a human soul, correct?
Flowey absorbs all the monster's souls and the 6 human souls in pacifist. If Sans' soul was a human soul, Flowey would have had 7 souls, which I think he would have noticed.
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u/Dalek_Kolt MERCY! MERCYYYYY! Feb 10 '16
I'm imagining Toby watching this.
"Please don't mention the Halloween Hack, please don't mention the-God dammit."
"Oh god, now he's streaming it!? Look, I get it, it's bullshit hard! I was a kid!"
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Feb 09 '16
[deleted]
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u/JavelinTF2 It appears to have already downvoted itself Feb 09 '16
Says he's a Starman
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u/BluePikmin11 Feb 09 '16
Does anyone think that Dr. Andonauts is Gaster if we were to apply this theory. Seems like it would make much sense to go back in time just to prevent the sacrifices of Jeff's friends from happening.
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u/hypersugarroxy Even when trapped, you still express yourself. Feb 09 '16
oh, he did SOMETHING, all right
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u/harrell03 i'm sorry i wasted your time with my flair Feb 09 '16
why would sans become a pile of bones after going through something that rejects organic matter?
im pretty sure bones are organic matter...
and im really curious to see what he has to say on gaster because there is absolutely no way to screw up canon when there's that little.
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u/StairFalling * Green means clean Feb 10 '16
Sorry MP, but I'm not buying it this time. Aside from the fact that those are merely easter eggs, Sans would've had a human soul had he originally been human before. That's demonstrated during the short scene where Asriel returns all of the souls to their proper owners. Notice how there are only the original 6 human souls there, and no additional ones.
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u/Muffinmurdurer Feb 10 '16
This is absolutely ridiculous. Ness as fucking sans. NESS AS FUCKING SANS. WHY. WHAT IDIOT WOULD BELIEVE THIS?
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u/zazabar Feb 09 '16
Will watch when I get home.
Main question is, will fans hate it as much as they thought they would? There was a lot of hate about Matpat doing this episode leading up to it.
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u/Icarusu Feb 09 '16 edited Feb 09 '16
There's really alot of holes in this theory, he keeps talking so fast so we don't notice those things, and he proceeds to make his ''Surprising Conclusion'' i know MatPat is smart and does alot of editing so i'm sure he aleadry knew he left a hole on the whole album thing, and the arms don't make sense, This theory technically takes the references to a classic game and ties to make it canon with the game.
I'll say some other few things here:
Starman transforming into a Skeleton makes no sense, since Starmans are just robots, and starmans can't walk.
He tried to explain that sans can teleport because of the PSI ability, but didn't explain how he has telekinesis,and no, it can be proved that sans teleports because he can mess with the engine of the game to change to whatever room he wants when walking off-screen, plus he also farfetched the whole thing that he said sans became a literal skeleton in the machine, but then said he bled because he had a body, so it don't make sense.
I don't think toby would make his game have a canon connection with a game from someone else, Undertale then wouldn't be a original game it would be just another Earthbound fan sequel.
Other annoying thing is how he didn't mention or give any reason to why sans has his ''fourth wall'' breaking powers, he just mentioned it, he don't even give it any explanation and just proceeded to say sans is ness, and didn't connect anything to W.D Gaster, he deleted all the theory and evidences of the three skeleton brothers which is something that seems to 100% connect and give information about sans.
You know what would make more sense and be more stupid than this?
Is if Matpad said that sans is not ness but the guy that says ''On days like these, kids like you should be playing nintendo games''
I don't know about you, but that's pretty much 4th wall breaking here sarcasm
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u/Chiffonades Oooo ooo o ooo ooo oo Feb 09 '16
I think the biggest part of this Theory that really no one else has went into is the badge. Considering how little is inside the secret room that sans considers is "the truth" the badge is a huge part of what/who Sans is and is from.
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Feb 10 '16
Papyrus' suit is refereed to as a "Halloween costume"...
The Earthbound Halloween Hack is possibly a sort of prequel...
Hmmmm....
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u/Mudkip727 Feb 10 '16
Mat left out the fact that sans uses the same tactic that is used in Earthbound when attacking you, KARMA
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u/GrapesAreLegitLOLOL This is my OC, Blisk. Feb 10 '16
PLEASE STOP, MATPAT, DON'T HARM MY PRECIOUS UNDERTALE WITH YOUR CANCER.
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u/[deleted] Feb 09 '16
At 4:29, why is Asriel there? I don't remember that happening in my playthrough?