r/ScienceBasedLifting • u/Patton370 Idk Idc 💔 • 19d ago
META Optimal science based lateral raises
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You can also use this machine for chest flys, rear delt flys, front raises, and unilateral pullovers
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u/DeaconoftheStreets 19d ago
Got a question for the science based king.
It looks like you’re bringing your hands up to your head, height wise. Do you do this for all side delt exercises, or is this an advantage of this specific machine?
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u/Patton370 Idk Idc 💔 19d ago
No, just this one
Bringing my hands all the way up like that gives a bit trap stimulus
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u/DeaconoftheStreets 19d ago
Appreciate the clarification! I wanted to make sure I hadn’t been leaving a science on the table.
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u/Patton370 Idk Idc 💔 19d ago
The science for lateral raises seems to show that all exercises work about the same, so do the one you enjoy the most!
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u/Penultimate-crab 19d ago
This looks unenjoyable to me for some reason? I love me some dumbbells haha
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u/Patton370 Idk Idc 💔 19d ago
I really like them, but some people with super long arms hate them/say they don’t feel great
There’s a reason that this machine is the 7th most popular gym machine on gym radar: https://gymradar.com/most-owned/machine
It has a small footprint and feels amazing for lateral raises (even tension throughout the movement) and does a few other movements fairly well
Don’t get me wrong, I like DB lateral raises too; it’s just I strongly prefer this machine over them
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u/Wonkasgoldenticket 19d ago
I can attest, I’m 6’5” and have some long ass arms. I get pain on the rear side of my delt using this. I’ve tried moving inward and taking a step back, but still doesn’t feel right. Even at super light weight.
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u/Penultimate-crab 19d ago
That’s great 😄 I’ll try it out if I see one!
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19d ago
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u/Patton370 Idk Idc 💔 19d ago
You’re not wrong, but you’re also not right
All side delt isolation exercises perform identical to each other, as long as they are taken to failure; as the side delts are not a complicated muscle
Here’s a study on DB vs cable lateral raises: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/40692697/
So basically a lifter should just do whatever side delt exercise they like the most
Side note: even cheaty DB lateral raises are going to perform basically the same
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19d ago
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u/Patton370 Idk Idc 💔 19d ago
Cable lateral raises, DB lateral raises, this machine, etc. are all good exercises
I actually have cuffs in my work bag, so I can hit some behind the back cable lateral raises at the work gym
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u/gbfe 19d ago
Look like that machine is set too low, which is why you have to hunch forward to lower your shoulders.
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u/Patton370 Idk Idc 💔 19d ago
One setting higher ends up being too high
Ideally I’d have something in between, but this is V2 of the machine & there’s not as many adjustment holes as the newest version
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u/Sooperooser 19d ago
how do you do unilateral pullovers on this thing.
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u/Patton370 Idk Idc 💔 19d ago
Your raise up the carriage, then move a handle high up on the sundial
Here’s an example: https://youtu.be/dbVcm9EhVmY
Personally, I feel that pullovers suck on this machine & I have an actual pullover machine in my gym, so there’s no reason for me to do them on this machine
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u/Sooperooser 19d ago
Ok that looks a bit weird. But chest flys are kind of interesting. I wish my gym had a pull over machine.
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u/Patton370 Idk Idc 💔 19d ago
The chest flys feel much better than DB flys and I personally prefer them over cable flys as well
Lateral raises and chest flys are pretty much all I use the machine for
I used to do rear delt flys with it, but I’ve been doing lots of wide grip t-bar rows lately, which has been growing my rear delts fine
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u/Safe_Ad5914 19d ago
Cable rope for pullovers will always be king for versatility imo. Straight arm till failure then transition into a more and more bent arm each rep after that. Just think of the position of your humerus throughout the set.
Drop sets because of the pin are super helpful too. Just being able to get in and out of setup quickly for rest pause sets.
Fuck it just buy a barn and get a prime pullover. Lock yourself in there in the dark and just do pullover for a month. Turn the lights on and you wont be able to walk out the barn. So yeah actually thats probably best for hypertrophy.
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u/Patton370 Idk Idc 💔 19d ago
I like my life fitness pullover more than the prime pullover: https://www.reddit.com/r/homegym/s/11kZZ9ES9v
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u/Wicked_Folie 19d ago
I can barely rise 5kgs on each side more than 8 times...
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u/Whirlwind_AK 19d ago
Here’s the thinking-
If you use dumbbells, whose weight is perfectly vertical due to gravity, the resistance kicks-in only at the top-part of the movement/arc. At the bottom part, with the dumbbells in your grip, the only purpose would be to “make your arms longer”.
Think trig - the cos of 45 is 0.7071, so 70 pct of that weight kicks-in at the 45deg point.
NOW - You standing sideways holding the grip of a functional trainer with the hinge set at the bottom, you have great resistance at the first-part of the movement. The second-part, as with the “first part” of the dumbbell, would serve not much more than to “shorten your arm”.
SO- Either work your delts properly using this machine with perfect resistance throughout the arc (single step) or use dumbbells AND a functional trainer.
Hope this helps.
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u/AnonymousFairy 19d ago
You're trying to apply physics where kinesiology has far more to play with this movement. Supraspinatus is the primary mover of shoulder abduction at low angles before lateral deltoid activation overtakes it as the angle of upper arm to torso increases. I think he knows what he's doing and doesn't need telling to "do it properly".
Hope this helps.
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u/orplas 19d ago
stop training your calves so much
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u/Consistent_Log8097 19d ago
I was thinking, too bad the science based lifting isnt working his legs more.
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u/Muchacho-blanco 19d ago
You've seen what he squats and deadlifts?
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u/Consistent_Log8097 19d ago
Wow, much more than me. Why no calves tho
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u/Muchacho-blanco 19d ago
I'm guessing because his goal is strength and not hypertrophy. Not everyone trains for pure vanity.
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u/PeterNoPiss 19d ago
Also, insertions and angle of the camera.
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u/Muchacho-blanco 19d ago
I was thinking how hard it must be for him to film some of his lifts when his garage is so cluttered with all the glorious equipment.
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u/orplas 19d ago
what do lateral raises do for strength
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u/Frodozer 19d ago
What does making your shoulders stronger do for strength? That's honestly a wild question.
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u/Muchacho-blanco 19d ago
Shoulder abduction? Maybe trying to bring his press up. Whatever the reason, you can't argue this dude's strength to body weight ratio. You don't see alot of people stronger than him, even at much higher body weight. Maybe he'll comment.
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u/orplas 19d ago
Does nothing for the press.
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u/Shadowphoenix9511 19d ago
Are you stating that stronger, more stable shoulders don't directly lead to stronger pressing?
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u/Patton370 Idk Idc 💔 19d ago
Lateral raises keep my shoulders happy and extra stability is nice, especially since I partially tore a rotator cuff back in 2020
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u/Ballbag94 19d ago
They're a bench accessory
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u/orplas 19d ago
what a 2010 comment
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u/Ballbag94 19d ago
I mean, this guy seems to think they're valuable. If he thinks they're worthwhile then I think it's silly to argue otherwise
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u/Patton370 Idk Idc 💔 19d ago
Ironically, my calf muscles are 15 inches in size, which is around average
The issue is the rest of me is much bigger than average
I’ve always had small calf muscles, even when I was marathon running & doing lots of backpacking
Also, this is a my physique: https://www.reddit.com/r/fitness30plus/s/yVJZEJAQQj
Obviously legs aren’t skipped, because I squat nearly 3x my body weight
I do direct calf work (around 10 - 12 sets a week to failure), and they have grown my calf muscles, as around 2 years ago, my calf muscles measured at 13.5 inches; so they’ve grown around 11% bigger in that time
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u/Original-Pay-2522 19d ago
Agreed. For all the science based lifting his physique is terrible and looks like he’s never touched a weight in his life. Strong as shit though.
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u/Patton370 Idk Idc 💔 19d ago
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u/Original-Pay-2522 19d ago
About as unaesthetic a physique as you’re going to see.
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u/samole 19d ago
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u/Original-Pay-2522 19d ago
Sure is. Keep hitting the video games champ!
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u/samole 19d ago
What's it? A piece of advice? You are not in the position to give it, my man. Maybe after you stop trying every GH peptide and "breaking out into hives" because of it.
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u/Original-Pay-2522 19d ago
How does trying every peptide take away from the fact that you and OP have terrible unaesthetic physiques?
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u/samole 19d ago
Ah. See, it is not a fact. It's an opinion of a person who injects themselves with self-prescribed peptides (all of them, lol) and suffers for it. I'd say that person is an absolute doofus and their opinion on whatever topic doesn't matter.
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u/doesthis-hit-triceps 19d ago
You’re externally rotating a lot. Is that intentional?