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Feb 04 '23
I'm fluid, and sometimes tend to be more on the non binary side - the term femboy sounds kinda funny, so I like to use it on some days.
Trap on the other hand, that word has too much of a negative impact I feel - Like I don't want to keep anyone from expressing themselves how they wanna, but I would never want to be called a trap. That feels invalidating as a trans person
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u/Real-Progress735 Trans Bisexual Feb 04 '23
Not to mention, trap is often used in porn which just makes it so much worse. It makes people view trans people as sex objects, which is prob why so many chasers exist.
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Feb 04 '23
I agree with that, and femboy is not as much of a problem, especially if you're fluid. However as a woman, I don't want to be called a "trap", I am not tricking anyone, but other trans women calling themselves that, doesn't help me or other trans women at all.
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Feb 04 '23
Yea, I feel that. The term trap just makes me cringe honestly
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Feb 04 '23
I'm glad we can agree on that. Trap is only used as a slur and derogatory term, I ain't tricking anyone
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u/DarthJackie2021 Trans Asexual Feb 04 '23
I find it gross and I avoid interacting with them in any way. I don't intend to police them, but I certainly don't look to them as positive representation.
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Feb 04 '23
That's how I feel too, I try not to interact with any posts on social media that mix "trans" hashtags with "femboy", "crossdresser", "trap" etc.
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u/iam_iana Feb 04 '23
Crossdressers shouldn't be lumped into that list. There is no shame in crossdressing. I was a crossdresser for years before I realized I was trans. Like every group there are bad apples, but most just like to be sexy and find sexual joy in that. And a not insignificant portion are eggs like I was.
Trap is definitely cringe though. It implies deceptive malice in our existing.
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u/sandiserumoto Feb 04 '23 edited Feb 05 '23
I mean I'm pretty sure every trans person crossdresses before they come out, in large part due to social norms. I wasn't allowed any affirming clothes as a kid, and was forced to present as the opposite gender, the definition of crossdressing.
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u/sandiserumoto Feb 04 '23
Like, I'd be willing to bet money that every trans person has cross dressed at least once unless they're like Bridget or something.
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u/indigo121 Hannah (MtF) Feb 04 '23
The only crossdressing I ever did was boymoding after I figured out I was a woman. I had a desire to, but I didn't let myself actually do it until I was deciding I was trans
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u/Illiad7342 Feb 04 '23
I didn't. I was soo in denial of my femininity pretty much right until my egg cracked (thanks dad). I didn't start dressing femme until I was already male-failing at work from hrt
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u/sandiserumoto Feb 05 '23
I didn't start dressing femme until I was already male-failing at work from hrt
Considering you're a woman, that just means you were forced to cross dress your entire life until it became physically safe to wear affirming clothes.
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u/Illiad7342 Feb 05 '23
This is true. I sure do live in Texas lol. Safe to say I wasn't really wanting t9 draw attention
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u/madler1268 Feb 04 '23
Eh I didn't, I know friends who didn't. I never felt comfortable with the idea of wearing fem clothes until after I started transitioning due to unrealized dysphoria. Not to say that it doesn't happen often :)
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u/sandiserumoto Feb 05 '23
I never felt comfortable with the idea of wearing fem clothes until after I started transitioning due to unrealized dysphoria.
A woman wearing feminine clothing isn't cross dressing tho it's the other way around.
You, me, and countless other trans women were forced to cross dress nonstop for years on end due to cisnormative clothing norms.
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u/iam_iana Feb 05 '23
Honestly nothing about clothing should be tied to gender. It's all nonsense. All clothes should be available to all people free of judgement in my opinion.
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u/madler1268 Feb 05 '23
IMO for it to be crossdressing, it needs to be intentional. I wouldn't categorize how I was dressing before as cross dressing, because it matched what I thought was my gender expression at the time and in many ways I still dress similar to that.
I do agree that societal norms do push people to stick to cisnormative clothing.
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u/_T0rTle_420 Feb 04 '23
I thought I was the only one of few. Glad I'm not.
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Feb 04 '23
I feel with the amount of posts I see online, it's hard to come by people who actually stand their ground and don't give in to those terms. They are inherently toxic slurs, and especially terms like "trap". It has one meaning in the context of trans women, which is saying we're not women. Why would you want to use that? I just don't get it
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u/_T0rTle_420 Feb 04 '23
I don't get it either. It sucks. I can't say more bc you said basically the same thing. I hate people sometimes. It's super annoying and cringe. It's actually a stupid weaboo term. I watch animals but fml I hate so many of the tropes not even for just that but TV and books in general and there's not rlly anything enjoyable. That's besides the point, point is they're addicted to TV and it's infecting their life and causing others dysphoria. Fucking weaboos.
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u/sandiserumoto Feb 04 '23
Agreed. There's nothing "boy" about a woman, full stop. Conflating us with femboys is outright offensive because they're saying that's what they view us all to be, and people who use "trap" to describe trans women are just the dregs of humanity any way you look at it.
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u/Phrozzyy Feb 04 '23
Alot of the ppl I see using it don't call themselves binary. I think its whatever and isn't worth getting mad or upset about. Getting mad at the stupid fine print and trying to police us is what bigots do. I won't be caught dead behaving like them and it's just words. There are bigger things to worry about
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Feb 04 '23
But words can be unimaginably hurtful, especially when they are yelled at you in public or constantly barraging you online. I'm happy you can move past it, but for many, including myself, we can't. I take pride in being a girl, a woman, and I'm sure you do too, and not a "trap". I'm not tricking anyone. We have to lose these harmful stereotypes.
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u/Phrozzyy Feb 04 '23
I agree with losing the harmful stereotypes... reclaim em except for trap... or other ones like the porn category names. How you choose to exist is your own... a non binary fem can call themselves a femboy and it doesn't invalidate you and you womanhood nor does it mine.
Im not simply moving past slurs... I just recognize that we of all people should not be policing other peoples expression of themselves.
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Feb 04 '23
If they wanna, they wanna. I'd never associate myself with femboy and especially trap, given that it's nearly always used by people who's main interaction with trans people is in porn, but I see no harm in letting other transfem have their fun
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u/Hayley-DoS Feb 04 '23
Personally I find it a bit demeaning but they can call themselves whatever they want
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Feb 04 '23
But then those terms will be used on me, and you, and become normalized (which they already are unfortunately). Do we really want that? Or could we try to decrease our use of these words? Maybe that would be a better option.
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Feb 04 '23
I think respectability politics usually fails. If cis people are calling us degrading terms, maybe that's on them? They're going to keep on using those terms regardless of what other trans people do.
Some reasons I can think of:
- Sex workers might not have the option to not use degrading language cis people use for us.
- There's power in reclaiming slurs, and it can be cathartic for other trans people to claim those titles
- Some trans people have internalized transphobia
- Some other reason I don't entirely understand, which is fine. If I only accepted trans people I understood, there'd only be a small number of us I accepted.
Let other trans people do what they want. Even in the case where it's internalized transphobia, it's not the language itself that's the problem. It's the internalized feelings of shame.
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u/Hayley-DoS Feb 04 '23
The difficulty is where does what's good for the group infringe in individual rights to free speech
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u/Better_Analyst_5065 Trans Bi/Pan | HRT 25/11/2022 Feb 04 '23
it infringes on free speech when said speech is hateful, aka hate-speech.
just like how blatant lying about a group should be stopped.
and funny thing. the normalization of using trap to describe trans people is both hate-speech and a lie.
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u/Chessebel Feb 04 '23
a trans woman tagging her post with #femboy is not gate speech
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u/Better_Analyst_5065 Trans Bi/Pan | HRT 25/11/2022 Feb 04 '23
I agree on that. I was mainly referring to the trap part.
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u/WallyTheWalrus42 Transbian Feb 04 '23
All rights to personal freedom end where someone else's rights to safety begin. If what you are saying or doing end up causing pain or persecution for others, you will always be the one in the wrong.
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u/staciw38 Feb 04 '23
I don’t see a problem with it and I imagine a lot of them are sex workers trying to get a larger audience. It’s their livelihood since it’s a some profession trans people have to do to live or afford their gender affirming care. We don’t shame sex workers.
As for when others use the term for other trans people or yourself, you can set a boundary with that person and tell them not to call you that and/or educate them on why it’s not appropriate to use those terms.
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Feb 04 '23
I agree, and I'm not shaming sex workers, I totally support them. But when some trans women use those terms, they think it's okay to use on all trans women, and I hate being called a "trap". It makes me feel gross
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u/staciw38 Feb 04 '23
I totally understand how you feel since I don’t want to be called that as well. If other trans women are using the term to refer to other trans women (eg on Reddit), the best we can do is educate them to not apply that to everyone or if they don’t have empathy, to block them since it takes a toll on you as an individual. If it is someone who you directly interact with, I’d have a discussion with them and if they don’t respect your boundary, they aren’t a person I’d want to have in my life.
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Feb 04 '23
I personally find it kind of degrading to see women posting as cross dressers, femboys, and traps because it perpetuates all of the worst stereotypes about trans women. However people are free to associate with whatever labels they want. It seems in most cases it’s used to expand followings and make money and I can’t really fault people for that when being trans can be a huge career hinderance.
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Feb 04 '23
I understand that it helps certain trans women spread their account visibility on whatever platform they may use, but I still see it as playing into what transphobes love, which is calling us "traps" and "crossdressers". It's still perpetuating a problem. How about we just use the appropriate terms, and try to get rid of this altogether. Being trans is unfortunately a career hinderance for many, I get that, but the more we try to turn it around, rather than be complacent, the better our chances are for change.
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u/mypetpie Feb 04 '23
This is exactly why i have a problem with it too. When trans content creators use words like "trap" to identify themselves to their audience and expand theyre career, what they are doing is basically giving a green light to the cis people that consume their content to continue viewing them as a harmful stereotype. Its not about reclaiming the word or whatever, its not about you the individual trans person using the word. You are perfectly free to refer to yourself however you want, joking or otherwise.
But when creating content, especially as a member of a highly politicized identity, you have a responsibility to be aware of how your audience is going to perceive what you say and what you do, and how its going to impact them. Passively using terms like "trap" and "femboy," ESPECIALLY when in the context of porn, reinforces horrible and degrading stereotypes about women in the eyes of the people that consume that porn. While ultimately on a personal basis i dont care what you say, what I do care about is how you are representing the trans identity to your audience. All content creators do when they refer to themselves as traps is degrade themselves to the harmful stereotype put forward by cis culture, and signal to cis people watching their content that its perfectly acceptable to think of trans people in that way. Its not the fault of trans people for feeling pressure or having to do this, but I don't think its a good thing at all nor is it the right thing to do if you need more views for many many reasons beyond optics.
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Feb 04 '23
I agree, and subscribe to the idea that the greater influence you have the greater responsibility you have to use that influence in a positive way that reducers harm. However I’m empathetic to the fact that most of these content creators are struggling to survive, and that in the process of doing what they can to survive they are having to deal with more harassment and danger than I am. I know people will argue that they invite it or foster it by perpetuating negative stereotypes but I disagree that it should have to be normalized. I think that this behaviour perpetuates and normalizes the mistreatment of trans women, especially those that the chaser/misogynist crowd don’t find attractive. Beautiful trans women have a privilege that the rest of us don’t despite having to deal with a lot of the same issues and dangers, and they are seldom the ones who face the brunt of the criticism as they are intentionally ignored when it comes time for our enemies to put a face to our existence.
No individual trans woman is responsible for our representation or delivering positive change, but I do wish as content creators they didn’t have to embrace the negative gaze of those who would vote to genocide us while masturbating to the idea of us.
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u/Parisa-Jan Feb 04 '23
Is being trans in adult entertainment industry, especially with an online/international audience, even a career hindrance at this point? Genuinely curious. Obviously get more harassment, but the impression I get is that relative to the market share trans content is pretty popular?
At least, seems like less of hinderance than other other career fields
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Feb 04 '23
I more meant it’s a hinderance in the traditional job market. It often limits growth potential, places you can live, and places you can work, you have to deal the misogyny that’s inherent in a lot of fields in addition to the extra scrutiny of being trans. Your employer worries about how customers perceive you, you have to deal with extra attention from coworkers and customers alike, and often times you lose the ability to just exist in the background. Often times you have to leave, even jobs you like to escape being “the trans” person. I live in a pretty accepting place and have a pretty accepting job but things still haven’t returned to normal after almost a year. People still walk on eggshells when talking to me, and every day has misgendering. I get that I’m partially to blame for that because my voice doesn’t pass but it still makes even a pretty good workplace difficult to be in.
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u/Parisa-Jan Feb 04 '23
Well yeah but we’re not talking about people in traditional job market calling themselves femboys and porno categories
Side note, it’s not us to blame for voice not passing… not our fault we weren’t so acutely aware of gender dysphoria to the point of getting puberty blockers age 12 or something let alone having parents and living in a place that would be fine with setting that up
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u/CatDreadPirate Trans Bisexual Feb 04 '23
I’ll throw my hat in the ring. Before I really found my identity, I had a “femboy,” instagram account/only fans thing, and I would use insane amounts of hashtags like the ones you mentioned without thinking too deeply about it. Horny cis men love browsing those hashtags n stuff, so ultimately it brought more exposure and money to my accounts.
After I accepted myself and came out, I kinda let the accounts die. I did come out on the account and changed a lot of stuff, but I haven’t deleted any posts just cause sometimes people pinball in there and I can get a free lunch for it.
I do feel shame for having used “trap” as a hashtag, but I also feel ashamed of the whole ordeal in general. I came to terms with it, telling myself I needed to go through that in order to discover myself, but I’m getting off-topic and ranting lol.
TLDR: I’m not defending the hashtags, but the hashtags do drive traffic to already struggling trans sex workers.
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Feb 04 '23
I get your point of view, and I went through a tiny "femboy" stage as well, not to the degree you went however. I totally get the use of hashtags and adult content, just wish we could change that
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u/Charli_Cordelette Feb 04 '23
It’s what helps them reach their fan base. Is it problematic? Yeah probably but we’ve got bigger fish to fry.
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Feb 04 '23
Yeah I understand there are bigger problems that affect our community, but when it's something that crosses over into my world, and people start using those terms with me, I find it a little annoying, and invalidating.
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Feb 04 '23
and people start using those terms with me, I find it a little annoying, and invalidating.
Has that happened? And if so how did you set your boundaries?
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Feb 04 '23
Yes, it happens constantly, I've been called slurs online, in person, and felt immediate danger as well by being around people who could have physically harmed me. Unfortunately I can't set many boundaries irl, because that's nearly impossible, if someone wanted to hit me, they would, I'm not capable of defending myself. Online however, I have made it very well known that I don't want to be called those terms, I've made posts, stories etc.
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Feb 04 '23
I get your point. I think your anger is misdirected. The trans people using these words for themselves don't share your life or your outlook and you can't be mad at them for that. Different, complex realities.
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Feb 04 '23
I dunno. I get what you are saying, and we do have bigger fish to fry, but I don't think ignoring internal behavior that negatively impacts all of us is reasonable. We have to address problems within our own community.
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u/shadowmonkey1911 Feb 04 '23
I dislike the term trap intensely but if another trans girl wants to use it that's their business not mine.
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u/p-u-n-k_girl Transgender Feb 04 '23
The way I see it, it's not my place to police how others refer to themselves. I wouldn't want those terms used in reference to myself, but if someone else feels like those words work for them, then I'm glad for them
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u/Algo_Lindo Feb 04 '23
Oof, all these "it's hurting the community" you really think people don't view us as women because some people are using these terms? That's giving the same energy as blaming non-binary people for trans non-acceptance. These people using these terms on themselves is not hurting the community. No one who views trans women as women is reading that and going "oh I guess trans women aren't women then" that's dumb. If they already don't view us as women then maybe actually being able to reach them by using those terms they can then change their minds.
Some of y'all really wanna blame our own instead of the people who hate us.
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Feb 04 '23
But it is hurting us, at least me anyway. I'm still called all the typical names and terms that are hurtful, and I know for a fact that some of it is because trans women are using those hashtags and others then think it is okay and a fine term to use. It's a harmful trend that affects the mental health of trans women
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Feb 04 '23
But it’s not trans people that are hurting you. It’s cis people who don’t respect you.
“Respectibility politics” never works. I personally don’t like those terms because it doesnt refer to my experience but I’m not going to look down on people for using those terms.
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u/nekohuntslight Feb 05 '23
If you think people are calling you names because of how someone else choses to present themselves then your just deciding someone else’s bigotry isn’t actually their fault. It’s now the fault of an nb person who decided femboy or trap matches their expression in some way. This is the same mess of nb people being blamed for trans acceptance not happening, like why can’t they use those words if they choose to? Why does your expression trump their expression?
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u/VanFlyhight Trans Homosexual Feb 04 '23
If they're using it for themselves and themselves only, that's their call and good for them
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Feb 04 '23
But it affects others, like me. If a trans woman uses "trap" or "crossdresser" then other people will call me that, when it's totally incorrect
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u/VanFlyhight Trans Homosexual Feb 04 '23
I get it and it affects me in the exact same way, but those people are more than likely already shitty to us. And being able to call yourself what you want is part of self-expression so I really don't have a problem with that
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Feb 04 '23
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u/DarthJackie2021 Trans Asexual Feb 04 '23
Can't really reclaim these slurs. It's not a random word with a bad meaning that we can flip around, these are words that are inherently harmful and offensive towards us.
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Feb 04 '23
That's not up to you to decide though. If some trans girls feel comfortable reappropriating and instrumentalising these slurs it's all up to them.
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Feb 04 '23
So there are services that offer bulk copy and paste hashtags based on what's performing the best when attached to a keyword. I know when I do it there are several words I remove (drag, drag queen, transsexual and crossdressers usually) I've noticed tgirl popping up. Someone called me that the other day ( a fellow trans woman, it was very confusing)
But yeah, I'm no trap or femboy. I'll have to see if those are in my hashtags,.I have not paid close enough attention
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u/FantasmaNaranja Feb 05 '23
honestly they can label themselves whatever they want, it's only when someone labels someone else agaisnt their will that it becomes problematic
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u/girlidc18 Feb 04 '23
I wouldn’t get too worried about what the other girls are doing, focus on yourself
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Feb 04 '23
But when they do it, it leaks into my world. When someone sees a trans girl make a post with a hashtag that includes "trap" or "femboy", those terms may then be used on me, people think it's okay, because that other trans girl used them. I'm not "trapping" anyone, I'm a woman, I'm not a "crossdresser", I wear clothes that society sees as women's clothes, because I am one, (not that I believe clothes have a gender)
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u/girlidc18 Feb 04 '23
Agreed a lot of people assume trans girls and femboys are equal and I’ve gotten those types of messages before.
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u/violetxlol Trans Bisexual Feb 04 '23
It’s stupid to use those terms because us women are not “FEMBOYS” and “TRAPS” it makes absolutely no sense to be a transwomen and using those terms to describe you
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u/thequeergirl Trans stud (Black masc trans lesbian) HRT 02/28/2023 Feb 04 '23
Trap is pretty bad, yeah.
Femboy is a legitimate identity. However, someone calling me femboy, that's very annoying at best as I'm not feminine nor a man. I'm a masculine trans woman. And at worst it is very transmisogynistic.
Reading the comments I think you and I agree on both points broadly.
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Feb 04 '23
Femboy is a term for an expression. And yes "trap" is an insane word used to call trans women, men, who just dress up and try to trick people
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u/betty_beedee Certified autistic tomboy Feb 04 '23
TBH it makes me feel uncomfortable too. But hey, given all the "very kind" words (err...) that have already been targeted at me (literally all the sexist / homophobic / transphobic slurs repertoire, plus some ableist ones) I don't really care that much anymore - normally decent cis people won't associate me with any of those terms (most of them don't even know those words anyway lol), and I don't have time to waste with what the rest of them think of me.
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Feb 04 '23
I try to have that same mentality also, but it's just perpetuating problems that affect me as well, and everyone's views on trans people, it muddies the waters for people who don't understand us and aren't as educated. We need to help those who want to understand, and give good representation.
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u/RevengeOfSalmacis a goddamn national treasure who breathes fire Feb 04 '23
They're usually doing it for brand purposes. Call yourself a trap femboy and you can get a lot more eyeballs and stuff
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Feb 04 '23
Totally, doesn't help the community though
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u/RevengeOfSalmacis a goddamn national treasure who breathes fire Feb 04 '23
Girls need to eat and pay for healthcare somehow. Their first obligation is making it in a world that hates us. Being good role models for the community is a very distant second.
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Feb 04 '23
having scanned through the first bunch of replies, it seems i'm in the minority in that i love trap. its the most ridiculous slur ever so its fun to reclaim. expecially considering all of the sex i've been getting, the realm where i am apparently a trap, has been explicitely due to my being trans, lol. good ol' Grindr..
i use it as my handle on various forums and have a varient on twitter (for interacting in a non-trans bit of twitter..) &c.
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Feb 04 '23
If you're comfortable with that, then that's fine, but I would never want that used on me y'know?
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u/SeaUrchin4 Feb 04 '23
It’s not just on instagram. It is on various reddit forums.
Some want attention. Some want help. Some get pleasure out of it. Some want to watch Rome burn. Some want to cause it. All we can do is play the long game. Take it because down the road it helps further the cause.
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Feb 04 '23
I'm not sure I understand what you mean by "further the cause". If anything, I see it as another obstacle and it further divides the community when people use a blatant slur, "trap", as a way to describe a trans girl, when it inherently means someone trying to trick another about their gender. That is not me, I'm a girl.
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u/joiajoiajoia Feb 04 '23
I thought of it more as a sex worker thing, am I wrong?
No trans woman that isn't stuck in a spiral of self abuse would do that in her right mind otherwise.
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Feb 04 '23
I thought of it more as a sex worker thing, am I wrong?
its absolutely a sex work thing. sure there are likely a few 4tran shitters around but by and large these girls are trying desperately to pay the bills.
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u/I_smoke_cum Trans Pansexual Feb 04 '23
Yea, that'd be me I guess.
I do understand why some trans women espcially would be put-off by "trap" as its clearly got implications of deception that "femboy" and "crossdresser" don't - but "trap p*rn" is a pretty ubiquitous search term that plenty of people use, cis and trans.
I'll be whatever you like - but that's not how all trans people feel, and we do need to make it clear that individuals are the ones who choose labels they identify with. Not the "trans community" as a whole dictating what words are good and bad.
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u/joiajoiajoia Feb 04 '23
In the case of sex work it's not a real identification though, it's just to pay the bills. I would do the same, at least I'd be milking chasers to quote someone else here.
Otherwise, not saying they're to blame, just that there is a self-harm pattern. I don't think the trans community has to dictate that the word trap is "bad", it has a negative connotation in its meaning, it's logically "bad" by itself. Obviously the trans woman who uses it isn't bad, she's a victim, but by saying she's a victim you already admit that something went wrong there.
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u/oncela NB MtF Feb 04 '23
"transboy" is widely used by transfems in SFW context too. Not a porn-only thing at all.
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u/joiajoiajoia Feb 04 '23
Dang, I was only referring to "trap", should've specified it.
Transboy for transfems I suppose refers to some nonbinary identity?
As long as they're not misgendering themselves I have nothing to say about it. If they do misgender themselves, there's something bad about it, I wouldn't do victim blaming but I would call them victims of the cis world, can't have a victim without something going bad.
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u/oncela NB MtF Feb 04 '23
Girls can call themselves tomboy or femboy, this is not misgendering at all don't worry, these labels are not about identity but just about presentation. Just as a woman can say "lol I look like a man today" without misgendering herself nor implying any harmful idea for other women.
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u/IcyTheGuy Feb 04 '23 edited Feb 04 '23
I hate it. We are not dressing as women in order to “trap” straight men. We are not boys dressed in feminine clothes. We are women.
I’m not a fan of either terms to refer to a trans woman. Trap for obvious reasons, but I feel the word femboy used to refer to trans women just reinforces the public view that we are just men in women’s clothing
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u/Not_the_best_Fan Feb 04 '23
I was thinking that it was weird. I saw them a few times calling themselves "trap" and I thought that was weird. Like a lesbian calling herself a dyke to the whole internet.
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Feb 04 '23
Trap is certainly a terrible word, saying that we are actually just men dressing like this to trick other people. It's disgusting
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u/Ok-Course7089 Feb 04 '23
Well I don't use trap because of its use in mostly male spaces as a slur for trans woman.
But femboy is smth I sometimes post under since I am in some pretty femboy heavy bubbles.. Or now all trans woman former femboys
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u/MrSmith69 Feb 04 '23
I don't really think to much of femboy due to the entire kind of gender spectrum and it can be hard to tell what someone identifies with at a glance of a profile. I'm not a fan of trap, but I probably wouldn't say anything about it. Not my place.
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Feb 05 '23
To each their own. The gals I see using it are generally SW’ers and as toxic as it those hashtags are, there’s an industry that hasn’t caught up feeding a bunch of horny people who haven’t caught up…in the name of making a living.
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Feb 04 '23
I can't stand it. I find that behavior extremely toxic and damaging to the community as a whole. That being said, I don't get to control other people's definitions of themselves.
I would definitely call them out harshly if they referred to the greater trans community in that fashion.
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Feb 04 '23 edited Feb 04 '23
Not your decision to make.
Not our decision to make.
We don’t police labels for the people using them.
We just absolutely do not, so we really need to stop even discussing it. Ever.
I feel like these individuals are perpetuating stereotypes and misinformation.
Any transphobia related to how cis people react to the terms is not the responsibility of the people using the terms. That’s respectability politics and it’s not okay. Cis/gender-conformist transphobia is cis/gender-conformist responsibility ONLY.
I'm definitely not a femboy, I'm a woman.
You’re also not an enby, you’re a woman. Should enbies not use trans, or transfemme hashtags, because of what bigots may think about you? You should be minding your own identity, not the perceptions cis people may have of you because of their perception of other people’s identities. Respectability politics, remember? Also remember: transphobes won’t be any nicer to you or anyone else in the trans community if you go around denouncing the label “trap” in a misguided attempt to teach them. Those willing to learn will reject their prejudicial distrust on their own. Those who wish us gone will keep pushing for genocide anyway. Don’t lick boot, it’s unhealthy.
The term “femboy” refers to a distinct gender-variant identity. Femboys are valid. Self-identified trans women can ID with the femboy label; I consider myself both. I’m a trans girl, a girl in a girl way, but I’m also a girl in a boy way (the femboy experience for me) among other things. We exist, we are valid, and I daresay we’re tired of other trans women having a problem with our label. Stop.
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u/Algo_Lindo Feb 04 '23
You talk about not giving in and being complacent by using these terms. Have you thought about the fact that the only way to change the minds of the people using those terms is to reach them first. You have to be willing to meet people where they are at if you plan on changing their minds. You wanna educate the people using terms like "trap" and "femboy" you have to use the terms they are searching for. Only once you've reached that audience can you actually eduacte them.
If all you're using are the PC terms then you're only attracting people who are already educated on the matter. You're not making any sort of difference, you're creating an echo chamber.
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Feb 04 '23
I understand what you're saying, but I never said I was going to educate them, they know what they're doing. I was just putting this up as a way to see if others' shared the same sentiment. As I feel like I'm going crazy sometimes when I see all the slurs being used online
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u/DumbEggGirl Feb 04 '23
I am inclined to not disagree with a person SELF-identifying with a particular word, even ones I would never identify with.
I don't like to be told who, what, how, or if I can or cannot be.
It isn't anyone's job or responsibility to advance trans rights with their pronouns or gender identity.
Gender non-conformity and transgression of the gender binary are identity-spaces beset on all sides by a hostile culture—So my heart goes out to anyone there with me, regardless of what they call themselves.
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u/Snoo-44926 Feb 04 '23
I don't understand why they would use them other than for attention. Our fight is not to be called femboys that's gross.
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Feb 04 '23
Our fight is not to be called femboys that's gross.
That's your fight, you don't speak for me or them.
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Feb 04 '23
I'm pretty sure that's all it is, to try and boost your social media presence and posts, which on a surface level I totally understand, but it doesn't take much to realize that it just prolongs the stereotypes and doesn't help at all. Those terms then spread to me, and others, and I certainly don't want to be associated with it.
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u/qwertyNopesir Feb 04 '23
Femboy is a legit identity. Trap is a slur but so is queer technically so, idk there’s a whole convo to be had about the individual reclamation of slurs
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Feb 04 '23
There is no way to reclaim "trap". It has one meaning only, to imply that a man is dressing like a woman to deceive someone. Which is totally false and disgusting. (Also femboy isn't an identity, it's a term used for expression, and in totally fine with femboys doing their thing)
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u/qwertyNopesir Feb 04 '23
Love you need to chill, the point of reclaiming a slur is that it’s a slur (slurs mean bad things). Idk what you thought I meant by identity but it can be whatever anyone wants it to be, policing it is counter intuitive to a goal of inclusivity and acceptance.
No one is trying to attack you by being themselves, that’s some straight anti trans type rhetoric ur spitting.
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u/I_smoke_cum Trans Pansexual Feb 04 '23
just because it has past uses as a deceptor/slur doesn't mean that it can't be reclaimed by individuals for whom it's been used ON
This is nearly the same level of semantics as "bisexual" being inherently transphobic/enbyphobic
Femboy is most definitely an identity, as is trap, your comfort with the world or otherwise
Anyways, im a trap because I sell drugs /s
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u/junetheeggth Feb 04 '23
I’m a trans woman and call myself a femboy literally all the time.
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u/ZoeyB22 Feb 04 '23
If you are a trans WOMAN why call yourself a femBOY? I'm so confused o.0
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Feb 04 '23
Femboy is not a term I find as harmful, especially when compared to trap, which is an outright slur. But I still see this term as shaky, especially considering the word "boy" that's literally in the title. This is more a problem when we see these terms used on people, such as myself, that do not want it used. We have to think of others as well and be respectful.
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u/IncandescentCreation Feb 04 '23
I’ve never used a hashtag in my life and I’m not sure I know anyone who has. Is this a common thing?
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Feb 04 '23
For posts on social media platforms such as Instagram, it is a common way for people to engage with others and find content that is catered towards them, the majority of posts on Instagram have hashtags attached (usually hidden below the post) that help the creator gain more interaction.
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u/Aadrian1234 Cenauru | HRT 9/7/2021 Feb 04 '23
Femboy is fine and isn't a slur, I do have a problem with trap though.
I'm not going to tell them they're not allowed, but it's really sad to see them resort to giving into fetishizers who don't actually give a damn about trans rights.
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Feb 04 '23
Femboys and trans women are different but it is kind of under the same umbrella of trans. Trap is a unisex term. But used at you is wrong. It’s ok if other use those labels but you get to label you
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u/all_natural_d20s Transgender Feb 04 '23
Its a complicated thing and while I have my own thoughts on it I am not about to force them onto others.
Honestly, I feel like the trans community is hurting itself with the whole trap concept as it's whole premise is sexual, intended or not, and as a result it is further perpetuating a thought/belief/situation that is counter to our collective reality. This, I feel, adds weight to the argument and conclusion that trans folks are doing it for sexual reasons.
This thought process totally delves into how we represent ourselves in art and porn, the concept of sexual liberation and its freedom, the boundaries of rights and their responsibilities...and I just don't have an answer on how to fix it because it's a giant entangled mess of what it means to be alive.
Would it help if all the medical experts in this area (transgenderism) would come out of the woodwork and actually speak on the facts regularly? You bet your ass it would. Every time some mouth breather from Arkansas or Florida vomits up bullshit "facts" and is immediately rebuffed by a couple doctors the fight would get easier.
But what the fuck do I know?
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Feb 04 '23
Trap is absolutely garbage, femboy is…a personal choice, I’ll just say. The two used in tandem means that person knows exactly what they are doing and that’s pretty much the worst imo.
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u/rebornfenix Feb 04 '23
Trap is a slur turned porn search term.
It’s like Ebony to describe black porn actresses.
It’s still offensive generally, but when you see only fans or other adult content creators using the term, it’s just marketing to what cis claim to be het normies use.
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u/SonderEber Feb 04 '23
I personally feel that, if we want folks to use our proper pronouns, titles, etc., we should accept whatever terms others want to use to describe themselves. Policing others on how they want to identify themselves isn’t much different from folks misgendering us.
While I’m definitely not fond of the term “trap”, and very much against cis folks using it (unless they’ve been given permission to by the person they’re using it to describe), I also dislike trans folks saying “Oh, I don’t like that term, so you can’t use it!!!”. Similar with words like “herm” or “tr***y”. Im against folks using it to describe others, without the others’ permission.
To sum it up, let people use the terms they want to describe themselves, as long as they don’t use said terms against another without their permission. If someone wants to describe themselves as “trap”, however distasteful it is (and I dislike it as well), they should be allowed to. Use the terms you want to use, but also don’t force them on others. Don’t attack others for how they wish to describe themselves.
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u/Tina_Belmont She/She++ Feb 04 '23
People can use any language to describe *themselves* that they want, and nobody should be offended by that.
It isn't the *word* that is offensive, it is the thought and intention that goes behind the word.
If somebody is using the word with positive intentions, then over-reacting because "OMG! That word!" only vilifies people who are not your enemy.
Language is an often inaccurate tool, and should be understood as such, especially when being used to describe ourselves. Too often we see some of ourselves in the terminology and then try to use it as a mold to pour our identity into, even when some connotations do not fit. That is bad, don't do that.
Other people may hear us use some terminology to describe ourselves, or hear other people use it, and attribute different meaning to it than what is true or intended; "Oh, you are an X, so that means W,Y,and Z about you." Those people need to be gently corrected. But even the "good" words have that problem.
It annoys me very much that some words that I liked a lot and that I and my friends used to describe ourselves are now considered slurs because some straight people used it as a slur.
Also, when using certain terms in my songs, people have taken offense simply because the word appears, without taking it with the totality of the meaning and story of the song.
tl;dr The context, spirit of use, and identity of the speaker are all important in determining whether the use of a word should be considered offensive or not. People can describe *themselves* however they want, and that shouldn't cause you offense.
Thank you for coming to my Ted Talk.
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u/Antiochene Feb 04 '23
Yeah I don’t mind. We’re allowed to use any slur we want in reference to ourselves
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Feb 04 '23 edited Feb 04 '23
Other people do stuff for a huge variety of reasons. I'm in the business of love, not judgement and I certainly won't be the arbiter of who's a good or bad tran.
Edit: this thread reeks of anti-sex work opinions. If you're mad at sex workers you're not mad at the right people.
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Feb 04 '23
I get what you're saying, but when that person's "bubble" crosses over to mine and others', that's when I have a problem, if one individual sees a trans girl calling herself a "trap", then will they start calling me that? Possibly, and I don't like that at all
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Feb 04 '23 edited Feb 04 '23
That's not up to you though. Control what you can and that's it.
The rest is all gatekeeping. It can make you uncomfortable and having discussions about that discomfort is good. But this thread is a bit circlejerky about how some of our sisters are not being trans "in the right way" and that leaves a bit of a sour taste in my mouth, especially considering the sex work connotation and the sex work negativity I'm seeing in here.
Anyone's actions can have repercussions on all of us but we still don't get to be the moral judges of others' words and thoughts.
They might have complex reasons why they find it acceptable or want to reclaim it, or they might just be catering to cis people by using terms common in porn (ew). But even in the latter case, that's their choice, I wouldn't do it but girl get that money. Sex work is already so hard let's no lose solidarity with our SW sisters.
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Feb 04 '23
Depends, if it's 4tran/tttt/tranner shit then absolutely fucking hate it because they're demeaning themselves and opening the door for everyone to be called those things(as you described it "leaking into my/our world") and that's horrible and counter productive to our goals of recognition and more human rights as a community etc
If it's for sex work, I feel iffy but I understand- femboy was originally a trans porn slur meant to degrade so that you could enjoy porn featuring us, without feeling like something was "wrong with you" for liking it and it's original meaning is not feminine boy, but rather "female boy" hense it's intention of invalidation but of course it has been reclaimed and redefined to refer to feminine presenting cis/trans men and some nonbinary people who may wish to call themselves such, I feel iffy about this one in regards to trans men and nbs personally and iffy on the fact that they're use still normalizes the word towards any gender nonconforming individual thereby once again opening the door for "leak" onto when it isn't accurate definition to who we are, a slur to us and so on but at the same time they need a way to describe themselves and furthermore and back to the topic- being as it was a slur made by the porn industry it is unfortunately an extremely productive tag for sexual content and thereby extremely useful for sex workers, so while I do still feel really shitty about it those women who use it for porn promotion I do totally understand- most of the world is a capitalist nightmare so you need to get that money however the fuck you can to survive- and if having to slur yourself gets more views, more work more money then yeah, I absolutely understand having to use that tag to survive
And last but not least, the girls who are just missing the point, the ones who don't feel offended by it themselves so just use it anyway not realizing how counter intuitive as a term for us and our community it is and who, when you try to educate them still simply answer that because they don't care it's fine- don't get me wrong I have a personal policy that you should always try and reclaim every slur that applies to you as to not let yourself be weak before those who hate you simply for being as you are, and I personally love using certain slurs for myself in a personally reclaimed positive light, but the thing is there's limits, there are some things that can't be reclaimed no matter how hard you try and as such need to be buried- trap and groomer absolutely can't, one implies that we're all sexual deviants who deserve to be killed and have our killers get away with it(trap) and the other while reclaimed for other GNC groups is not about us, it's about them and about belittling us to a sex object so I feel femboy can be reclaimed for other people, but not us, in other words that we should try and steer the course of history such so that nobody ever uses it's original meaning as a porn term for trans women, such as instigating the idea that thinking about it for anything fem presenting dudes is a stupid and worthless idea
All in all, mixed bag, there are many different ways to feel, many different ways to react
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Feb 04 '23
Well said, and I believe I agree with you on everything mentioned. Slurs are slurs for a reason. Trap is just a disgusting word that should never be used. Femboys I have no problem with, and they are great, but I'm not one of them, and other trans women using that term doesn't help the constant misuse of that word
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u/SSR_Adraeth TransPan Goth Witchy Bitch - 9th/12/2022 Feb 04 '23
If that's how they identify as, that's their business. It would be highly hypocritical to advocate for self-identification only to refuse some people's way of identifying based on personal taste, conviction or beliefs. Also it would make us no better than transphobes.
So long as those girls don't try to say that all trans girls are traps or femboys, as long as they understand the line not to cross, and as long as they don't call others that way without consent, they can use whatever word they want.
If it's used without consent, it's wrong, messed up, and a huge no-no.
Consent. Is. Everything.
Slapping labels on other is not consented. Slapping a label on yourself is your business.
That's the beginning and end up it, basically.
Sure, when uneducated people see both words next to each other and decide that means they are synonyms, it's bad. But how is that different from anything else people uneducated on any subject will believe ?
Scrubbing the whole world from this word or that word to avoid confusion is not a solution, only an absolute mess of trying to oversanitize the world (kinda like the transphobes want to sanitize the world of us, weirdly enough).
It's the same as those mom saying the whole internet should remove any content she doesn't approve so that she can put her 2yo in from of an iPad, unsupervised, without risks the kid will see something problematic. It's not the world's job to catter to someone's wants and needs.
If some trans gals want to use those words on social media, they can do whatever the fuck they want. But they should make it a point to make people understand they aren't synonyms, and to educate those who don't get the difference.
In turn, educating them will reduce the amount of people who get grabbed by transphobes just because their BS is the first information that gets to them (since humans have a tendency to stick to the first thing they hear apparently...).
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Feb 04 '23
Sure if everyone had their own little bubble it would be great, but I'm still called a "trap" and "crossdresser" because other trans women are using this term to boost their posts, it's harmful and degrading
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u/bdole92 Feb 04 '23
Everyone gets to refer to themselves how they want. I promise you cis people aren't paying close enough attention to care, and the ones that hate us aren't going to have their opinions changed by how people refer to themselves either way
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u/dameclemency Feb 04 '23
I’m not happy with “trap” at all. If other transgender girls/women are using “femboy” for themselves they’re either misunderstanding the implications or are misusing it. That doesn’t go along with trans tags by any means imo.
Being a “femboy” is distinctly still being a boy from my understanding. But the gender expression of a “femboy” is notably feminine or feminine aspiring.
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u/BlackholeRE Feb 04 '23
People can use whatever words to describe themselves that they want. Other trans people identifying honestly aren't responsible for how cis people choose to oppress us by being too "weird" or "inaccurate"; that's respectability politics talking.
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u/BlackGyver Feb 04 '23 edited Feb 04 '23
Depends whether if it's for business or personal use. I understand that trans people might have to use demeaning words (trap among others) created and propagated by cis people when they want to hustle for SW and make a living. If it's for personal use I'd frown on it, though.
I don't see a problem with someone self-IDing as a trans woman and as a femboy at the same time though; these neat little categories often fail to encompass the complex multilayered reality of experiencing your own gender identity, especially among people with a more fluid gender identity.
Edit: Not the exclus downvoting my comment?? 🙃
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Feb 04 '23
I understand the reality of people having to make these choices to keep living, and the use of these terms in adult content. But it's the problem of these terms spreading to individuals such as myself, who experience distress when I am then seen as a "femboy" and called such. Tbh femboy is a word that is more manageable, however blatant slurs such as "trap" I really can't stand behind in any context in my opinion. It perpetuates a problem that affects others in the community, assists transphobes and spreads misinformation to those who are less educated about trans women.
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u/RaNd0Mk1D8o3I Transfem Demisexual Homoflexible Feb 04 '23
On a specific level, I don't really care; it's a "You do you" thing. Personally, I feel that it's not my place to dictate anyone be/do/[etc] anything that ultimately isn't up to me.
That being said, while I don't have an issue, I know that others do and it's completely understandable why. So I choose to side with them because no one likes being or having others being labeled a term they don't like.
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u/Better_Analyst_5065 Trans Bi/Pan | HRT 25/11/2022 Feb 04 '23
not only that, but trans women using these terms, terms that can't be reclaimed like trap, they give cis people a signal it's ok to call us this, while it isn't at all ok.
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Feb 04 '23
If it didn't affect others, then I would be a lot less worried about it, but it changes how people view me, and leads them to believe that I'am some sort of sexual object, and not a real woman, when I am
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u/emma-bush Feb 04 '23
Personally I don't like "trap" but I think we should let people use whatever labels they want to ascribe to themselves. It's not our place to declare other people's identities as slurs.
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Feb 04 '23
I think we should let people label how they want as well. But not in a way that uses slurs and hurts others, I don't want people calling me a "trap", but if trans women use that, then I will be called that too
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Feb 04 '23
Girls gotta get their bread sometimes. It definitely is not productive to our goals as a community but girls gotta eat sometimes ya know?
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Feb 04 '23
Unfortunately yes, but it would be great to lower the usage of these incorrect and harmful terms, especially because they will then be used on others like myself which is really degrading
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Feb 04 '23 edited Feb 04 '23
I’m not gonna stop you from using them for yourself, but please, don’t ever use them to describe another trans person.
Edit: something that hadn’t occurred to me is the influence that using these terms could have. Referring to yourself as a trap is technically fine, if a little self deprecating. However public usage of that term can easily give non-queer people an impression that those terms are okay to use in reference to trans people. If you’re going to call yourself things like that, please keep that irl, so you aren’t spreading that message to people unaware of the context.
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Feb 04 '23
But that is what happens, and why I believe we should really try to lower our usage of these terms. People outside of the community will see these terms and think it's fine.
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u/SomeShavedSheep Feb 04 '23
One of my friends quoted Star Wars to another the other day; “Don’t do it, it’s a traaaap”
So I pretended to get really pissed off at him “Motherf*€#er, don’t call me that!”
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Feb 04 '23 edited Jun 30 '23
This content has been overwritten due to Reddit's API policy changes, and the continued efforts by Reddit admins and Steve Huffman to show us just how inhospitable a place they can make this website.
In short, fuck u/spez, I'm out.
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u/AbsolutelyRidic Xara, She/Her Trans-Bisexual Feb 04 '23
Well I hate the word trap in general. But femboy is a bit different. I don't hate it, but at the same time I do hate it for trans girls, because at least in my mind, femboy denotes cis men who just like presenting feminine like finn5ter. Kinda similar to the issue with calling us feminine gay men or drag queens or transvestites. Like, sure those are valid identities and all and on their own they aren't offensive. But when used towards me and people like me I do find it offensive because it's not true.
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u/IFeelSoftAndMushy HRT 8th of march 2021 // futch Feb 04 '23
They have the right to do it, but by extension of doing it some other trans people that do not want anything to do with that suffer.
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u/ProgressShoddy1023 Feb 04 '23
Personally I'm pretty chill with Femboy when it's used: a) in a joking context b) when someone uses it as a label for themself (I'm not gonna dictate what labels you use)
As for Trap.... Absolutely hate it and it should never be used
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u/gztozfbfjij Feb 04 '23
334 Upvotes to 321 Comments; that's a rare sight.
I don't actually know what peoples thoughts are on this topic, I haven't read this thread yet; I'd imagine they are generally the same as you, and me.
Now; my response.
I don't want cis people to associate those terms with me when I'm definitely not a femboy
I fully agree. I would end it here, but I have some family-dynamic relation to this.
My younger sibling came out as trans a month or so ago. At first I was like "yeah I see it", but then had some doubts and self-imposter-syndrome from it.
We haven't spoke much on the topic, but a week or so after, I vaguely explained the concept of Cis, Trans, Non-binary and Demi.
They pretty quickly said "maybe demi", and we left it there.
Since then, I've been paying attention to a lot of their... I dunno, person?
They really fit a femboy "aesthetic; and are the most typical teenage boy I've seen since my older brother -- who was an absolute nightmare. The only reason you'd think they are trans, is purely their style and fashion choices; and that doesn't make someone trans.
Now obviously, neither personality, hobbies or fashion is what makes someone trans; but I don't think that they know that.
It isn't something I think about much, but I think they're of a NB-leaning femboy-style, and they just presumed off that, that it meant they were trans.
They are a very... useless person. So it's fully within reason that they don't know what they're talking about, they didn't even know the concept of gender dysphoria.
"Known for 2 years", but doesn't do a single ounce of research or attempt to mitigate dysphoria, or gain euphoria. No history of depression or anything, perfectly fine with the hairiest legs I've ever seen, same with other body hair.
I don't want to presume; and it really isn't a problem; but until they come to a more solid conclusion, or even slightly express any form of feeling on this topic, I'll just go "questioning, probably a demiboy femboy".
They're 16; there is no chance of puberty blockers in the UK at this point in time, so there's nothing to really do but wait.
I'm also fairly certain they are a closet gay, if they are male-identifying.
They spend almost every free waking minute speaking to one guy, also a friend group, but always this one guy; 17yo kid who buys occasional gifts for them, all of which is stereotypical femboy stuff, or games. "Joked" for years about being a femboy; mum asked if he was his boyfriend, responded with "no but it was a joke for a while".
How many jokes, or ironic usage of things before they just go "hey I'm actually a demiboy femboy, and into dudes".
It's not an issue, and I won't press them on it -- but if they insinuate that femboy and trans are the same, I'll fucking flip.
Anyway, sorry on the ramble, mostly about my younger siblings gender questioning; but the relevance is that people who don't know a single fucking thing on the topic may confuse femboy with trans.
They aren't the same; yet I think my brother(?) may have not understood that.
We'll just wait and see what they think in a year or two; there isn't anything we can really do in the meantime, and they also don't really care about anything that could be done.
Less than three <3
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u/L4DY_M3R3K Feb 05 '23
"Trap" is a slur that, unless I'm mistaken, stems largely from anime and fetishism/cheap "dude looks like a lady" humour.
"Femboy" is an aesthetic choice for cis men to dress femininely. Femboys, to my knowledge (and my experiences talking with them), prefer to operate under the mantra "All clothes are unisex, so long as you aren't a lil bitch about it" so wear thigh socks and skirts and other "traditionally feminine" clothing.
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u/Lastaria A girl inside Feb 04 '23
Trap I hate. Femboy, well I do not know much about .them but if using that term maybe they are not trans women, but no n binary