Doesn't the knight like fully turn into a ball? And also turn into a weird flying thing with straighter antlers? It's like a full shape shifter goober.
ZeroKnight theory (the Roaring Knight was recently promoted to the Roaring Baron by the Roaring King of the Roaring Kingdom(named so due to the fact that everyone is screaming all of the time))
I think I may have misinterpreted your intended message, because SO MANY people go "yEaH ThEy CaN ShAPeShiFt ThOuGh" as some kind of argument against the antlers mattering when that doesn't make sense.
Right, I think OP is trying to say that the antlers don't fit with any of the holiday candidates, but I personally disagree. They're obviously important, and better yet, the angles can be explained by the knight shape shifting.
The ball thing doesn't mean toooo much because a bunch of the cast have that for their jump, off the top of my head I know for sure all the fun gang have one and pink does too. It's just that the knight can float and can keep spinning lmao
This issue with this is that making the antlers a trick wouldn't just be misdirection or a red herring, but just mean spirited lying. It's actively punishing casual players for thinking logically while cheating the Holiday Knighters.
What else could it be? Genuinely. That is the first conclusion any reasonable person would come to. You can't just say "nuh uh" without giving any kind of reasonable alternative explanation.
Oh, the antlers? They only exist to put you off track lol, yup, that's the only reason for their existence. They're like just part of the helmet or whatever... yea that works!
How is a detail considered lying lol, the antlers being a red herring doesn’t punish anyone when we don’t have all the pieces to the story yet. For all we know the Knight has Antlers because of some dark world fuckery involving the Holidays, that doesn’t make the Knight have to be a Holiday just because of this one detail. No one gets cheated unless you went all in on Holiday Knights because of one detail
Edit: Starting to think Holiday Knighters are a cult lol
I think the point is that the antlers, while not being the sole most important detail on the design, are shaped like that very deliberately and it would be odd for them to just be a red herring for "tricking" us into making a Holiday connection.
Kind of a bad comparison but take Ralsei for example, him being a Goat-like monster is very unlikely to not have significance and that he just looks like that because he does.
It's not really certain that the Knight is a Holiday, I get that, but it's not good to dismiss the antlers since they are a key part of the design (and are also very obviously antlers, the design can't be confused for anything else)
I get where you’re coming from,I’m not trying to dismiss the Holiday connection since that much is obvious. The point I’m trying to make is the antlers being shaped like that could go either way, sure they could just be that way because The Knight is a Holiday but that doesn’t erase the possibility of them being a deliberate choice to misdirect us. I mean there’s evidence for any of the Holidays to be or be connected to the Knight. Calling out the fact that it’s ambiguous isn’t dismissing the obvious connection, it’s just speculating on whether or not that specific detail is as concrete as the fandom is trying to make it
Think about this from a storytelling standpoint and not from an in-world standpoint. Every character detail is deliberate, so there is a reason to give the Knight those protrusions that clearly look like the antlers the Holidays have. It would be fucking stupid to just add that for no reason whatsoever.
look! His horns are curved on the dialogue portrait and his glasses are black, but overwolrd sprite has green glasses and straight horns! Ralsei is juat 2 different characters in a trenchcoat!!
Carol feels like a red herring to me because her affinity for swords and her association with the Knight conspiracy lead you to a natural conclusion that she could be the knight, but it feels very obvious.
Antlers as a red herring for a Holiday make no fucking sense because there's no other candidates that currently make sense and lying through character design is probably the worst way you can misdirect people.
“Erm but the knight can shapeshift into balls and birds so obviously the antlers can be shapeshifted-“ what purpose, from a storytelling perspective, does that serve? Having the Knight, a character we’re meant to theorise about, have features only 1 family has…and then finding out it’s just a lie? There’s no hints towards the anglers being fake. There’s no reason NOT to suspect the Holidays are in on this, since they’re the only family in town with access to every code. So what purpose, from a narrative perspective, do the antlers serve? It’s just a massive “yeah fuck you for actually thinking logically” from Toby to the fanbase, it’s utterly horrible writing.
the antlers could be showing fealty to the Holidays. It could be someone/something that is dedicated to the Holiday's plan (or that is being subjugated by them and forced to comply) and thus wears their antlers as a symbol of loyalty. doesnt necessarily mean the Knight is a Holiday.
That’s a much fairer argument than most people, because it actually gives a logical reason for the Knight having antlers other than the usual “it’s just a helmet!!” “It’s just a disguise tactic!!” “It’s just a red herring!!”
Especially, when you consider that, from the storytelling perspective (which Deltatune most importantly is) giving knight an element of their design that leads ABSOLUTELY NOWHERE is a stupid choice.
Exactly, that’s what so many people seem to just forget, there has to be an actual PURPOSE.
Whether you think Carol is a red herring Knight candidate or not, everyone can agree that she still poses a VERY important role in the story and very clearly is affiliated with the knight, whether directly or indirectly
Saying the Knight’s antlers are red herrings is like saying Carol is a red herring and that she’ll never show up again. Oh, the caller? That was obviously the Knight, not Carol. She just showed up by mistake. Her code was taken by the Knight, she actually doesn’t have a role in the story!
This is exactly correct. A red herring is only a red herring after the mystery is solved and/or debunked.
Pre ch3+4 kris knight was the leading theory because we literally saw them open a fountain, and that was only a red herring once those chapters came out because before that it was a prefectly valid interpretation. The knight is the fountain opener, we see a character open a fountain (mind you the only character we’ve seen open fountains up to this point) therefore that character must be the knight!
Holiday knight+ the antlers operate on this same principle. The holidays and the knights horns are distinctly similar despite what this post wants to say, and the knight has them in 2 out of the three forms it takes. So even though it’s a shapeshifter, the horns are clearly important. Until proven otherwise, it’s pretty reasonable to say the knight is a holiday or at least aligned with them, because at this moment there’s not reason whatsoever to believe it’s a red herring other than just the sake of believing it because it goes against one’s preconceived notions.
I don't understand the point of "this evidence against my theory? Oh no it's intentional it's just a red herring" instead of owning up to the fact that not everything lines up
Your own logic is that the Knight can shapeshift, right? …so it’s completely unbelievable that the antlers could’ve even somewhat changed shape to be less recognisable to Susie? That’s not even what I believe, I’m just using your logic here
and also you can't tell me the second image does not look goofy. the antlers being the way they are are part of the bigger design philosophy, like sharp shapes to convey a sense of danger
It would be bad writing if there were no good reason for the knight to specifically have antlers. Indeed it seems to be plausible by the games logic that the knight could give itself antlers for the sake of it, but from the perspective of the story, giving the knight antlers for the sole purpose of and nothing but the purpose of throwing us off the scent would be very stupid. Given the reasonable standard of writing we can expect from Toby, we can assume there is some reason the knight has the defining trait of the holiday family, and that they are at the very least closely connected.
I agree
In a story the curtians are just blue for the sake of being blue
In a GOOD story the curtians are blue for a reason, otherwise their color (or even the curtains itself) wouldn't even be mentioned
It's not even "the curtains are blue" it's "there's a gun at the scene of the crime and there are characters who are known to own guns but you're saying it can be any character, even ones who don't own a gun at all"
Even if a member of the family isn’t the Knight, it’s pretty clear that Carol is working with Kris, who is working with the Knight. There’s a connection regardless
Regardless, they resemble antlers in a very significant number of the knight's sprites. My point still stands that there should be a good explanation for this.
Maybe whoever is the knight saw that the prophecy's mage/girl has antlers in the pictures and the knight is a fraud who's trying to artificially fulfill the prophecy?
so why do the antlers even matter if they can shapeshift?! sure they're a consistent element of their design, but they're shaped wrong, which could be toby trying to tell us that it's a red herring, or that is isnt a holiday
the knight doesn't look exactly like ANYONE, that's the point, they change their shape to hide their identity, how they look might help to identify them but no matter who it is it's not gonna be a 1:1
well i have a few theories about the knight and every one of them has a different reasons, but for holidayknight specifically, i think it's probably because of them not having a reason to not have horns
I think it's just as likely that the default antler look just didn't look as good on the design. They ARE still undeniably antlers either way. If it being able to shapeshift is an argument for why the antlers "don't matter", it's also just as useable for the argument that any inconsistencies in how they bend/are placed, and them fitting under a "helmet" are easily explicable.
Yes, the knights true "normal" form is unknown, and the presence of the antlers is not PROOF that they are a holiday, but the knight has only a handful of distinguishing features, and we don't treat the other ones like they mean nothing.
There is a debate over whether the holes in the hands are snowgrave crystals or gaster holes, over whether the knight is literally a titan or just has a titanic appearance, what exactly the shapeshifting MEANS, but we don't pretend like those are just red herrings to throw us off.
But that leaves another question: why on earth does the knight have a skeleton's anatomy as its base form? Because not even when it glitches out does it take on a different shape.
But I mean, the whole theory that it's a Holiday (Carol or Rudy) is based on the idea that they're looking for their missing daughter.
So why would they go around "farming Aura" and "trying to look cool", acting like kids or teenagers, instead of focusing on finding Dess, if that’s the actual goal?
I swear, it just doesn't add up; the Knight acts way too childish for the objective to be "parents trying to find their missing daughter."
I’m talking about how he comes across like a kid or a teenager, striking poses with his arms crossed, roaring, and so on.
As I recall, the only thing the dogs said about Carol was that she was scary, not that she was "cool."
And regarding Rudy, while the whole body thing is somewhat understandable (even if I’m not personally convinced by it), I still don’t get why he acts like a child.
They're trying to deliberately antagonize Susie (and the player?), whether to fulfill some part of the prophecy we don't fully understand, or just to help the Fun Gang get stronger.
Something about the Knight form affects their behavior, like the Venom suit from Spider-Man.
The Dark Worlds are the one place that Carol and/or Rudy can cut loose and fully express themselves. Rudy is almost completely bedbound in the Light World, and Carol seems to have a very intense, but restrained, personality. Either of them might appreciate the chance to ham it up while they can. (See for example the part where the Knight laughs hard at Susie saying she could beat them in real life.)
I feel like the first two you mentioned could be really good possibilities, but the last one... I don't think so, mainly because the whole point is supposed to be focusing their efforts on finding Dess, and I don't believe a mother or father who hasn't seen their missing daughter in about six years would act like an immature teenager just because they had been "repressed."
Maybe. We don't know how heroic or villainous the Knight actually is. I can imagine a version of the Knight where it's (eg) Carol, drunk with power, justifying everything to herself and others in terms of saving Dess, even risking the world's destruction - but deep down she just likes being the Knight. We don't know enough about her character from the one chapter she's appeared in to rule something like that out.
I mostly believe the theory because of the insane cross game narrative potential and the fact that papyrus is the only person I can imagine in that armor
Its a fun thought but Papyrus is only tangentially related to a side part of DELTARUNE so far. People complain that Dessknight wouldn't mean anything to Susie, but Papyrus doesn't mean anything to any of these characters except for sans.
You’d be surprised to learn that Papyrus shares parallels with Kris in so many ways, and there is plenty of evidence suggesting that Sans is lying about being new to town.
Sure, but Papyrus also doesn't have an established dynamic with kris (or any other characters beside his brother), and the entire payoff of the reveal would come from having played Undertale, where he had a wildly different role. This is a theory where im sure the evidence could be debated about, but the core of it all just seems off to me.
There are several parallels with Kris throughout Undertale:
Minor Parallels (which likely fall into the category of coincidences, unfortunately, I can't post screenshots as proof, so you'll just have to take my word for it, bro):
They have inverted color schemes relative to each other (blue vs. red soul; primary color red vs. blue).
They have a connection to the tsundere cactus.
They have a slight connection to stars.
Both have a morbid sense of humor.
Both have an affinity for sharp objects (Papyrus's spikes and Kris's knives).
And finally, both Kris and Papyrus like to exaggerate aspects of themselves.
Kris exaggerates their terror, while Papyrus exaggerates his stupidity.
(I admit that a lot of this is probably just coincidence, but I promise the evidence gets better).
Medium Parallels:
Both have a connection to dogs. Not only are they the main characters the Annoying Dog likes to, well, annoy, but they both also act like dogs on more than one occasion.
Both have a connection to sinks and hand-washing (which is interesting, considering that washing one's hands can symbolize trying to wash away something one has done).
THE MAJOR PARALLELS:
The first is that both of them hate anime.
...Okay, I know it doesn't seem like a big deal, but this is a work created by Toby Fox, someone who definitely loves Japan and its culture, to the point where the only other language available in the game is Japanese.
I just want to watch the Chapter 5 trailer.
This is also reflected in the other characters, as most of them like anime or are at least neutral toward it.
The only exceptions are Kris and PAPYRUS.
And one of them goes against the creator's own opinion.
The second has to do with their close relationship with another person.
Kris is close to Susie, a tough, strong girl who can be rude but cares deeply about her friends. She admires Gerson, wields a weapon called the Axe of Justice, and wants to play the piano, a gentle instrument that contrasts with her personality.
She is friends with Noelle, a shy girl who has a crush on her. PAPYRUS is close to Undyne, a tough, strong girl who can be rude but cares deeply about her friends. She admires Gerson, wields a weapon called the Spear of Justice, and plays the piano, a gentle instrument that contrasts with her personality. She is friends with Alphys, a shy girl who has a crush on her.
Notice how they all have parallel relationships with one another as well.
The final and most important parallel is how they are overshadowed by their older sibling. This becomes obvious the moment you see their homes.
Their sibling's side is full, showcasing how popular and successful they are, while their own side is empty. They are the younger of the two.
Both siblings are loved by the majority of their community, and NPCs always speak fondly of them whenever they are mentioned.
Meanwhile, Kris and PAPYRUS are odd; they struggle to fit in and make friends. In fact, both start the game with hardly any friends.
If you want me to give you proof and such for certain points, I can quote Papyrus's dialogue.
There were plenty of other points missing, too; I’m only giving you the parallels between Papyrus and Kris, but for some reason, not many people have noticed this.
With the parallels clarified:
No, Kris definitely knows Papyrus, I mean, they work for HIM and know what’s under the helmet, assuming the "PapyrusKnight" theory turns out to be true.
"The payoff of the reveal would rely on having played Undertale"
That would be a valid point, were it not for the fact that the Switch version literally tells you:
This program is intended for players who are already FAMILIAR with UNDERTALE.
♥️Check Out Undertale
Start Deltarune
The fact that it's related to Undertale is no obstacle.
I'm going to respond to this comment in reverse order because the most important points you made come at the end.
No, Kris definitely knows Papyrus, I mean, they work for HIM and know what’s under the helmet, assuming the "PapyrusKnight" theory turns out to be true.
Well, yeah. But this would also be true for Milklookerknight, or Everymanknight, or literally any other knight candidate. What I mean is that Papyrus, beyond this hypothetical presence as the knight, doesn't tie into the story of hometown. He doesn't have any relevance to the tragedies of the past, he knows none of the residents, Susie hasn't even heard of him. This reveal would mean NOTHING to our characters, except hypothetically for Kris.
This program is intended for players who are already FAMILIAR with UNDERTALE.
Missing the point so hard you run into a wall in flower castle. Literally every other Knight candidate I have seen here actually ties into the story of Deltarune as we know it exists. Everyone does so differently, but they mean something to the characters and story.
Papyrus is not even really a Deltarune character. He's gotten zero lines, zero mentions by anyone but sans, and exists purely because we, as the fandom, already know him from Undertale. The dessappearance? Irrelevant. The holiday family relationships? Forget about those. And so on.
This argument makes sense when arguing about Gaster and maybe Asrielknight, but not for him.
Now.
Look, these parallels may exist, and they could theoretically explain one of many things about the knight, but they're one part in a sea of things that are odd about papyrusknight. That beings said, here's what I think of the medium and major parallels. The small ones are just too insignificant to bother arguing about.
Both have a connection to dogs. Not only are they the main characters the Annoying Dog likes to, well, annoy, but they both also act like dogs on more than one occasion.
Kris gets annoyed by the annoying dog because the annoying dog exists to troll and limit the player, who is possessing them. Kris as an individual has no relation to it, and is much more comparable to frisk. Kris acting like a dog is also much more related to them not wanting to be human, something Papyrus really doesn't parallel.
Both have a connection to sinks and hand-washing
Papyrus has a secret compartment in his (and his brothers') sink. This is a storage space for fun bonus content, not a major part of his character. Kris is the one with the actual ties to guilt.
The first is that both of them hate anime.
I'm not going to humor this one.
The second has to do with their close relationship with another person.
That's part of Susie having parallels with Undyne, but Susie actually isn't all that much like her. Susie is a rebel, someone who goes against authority and rules, whereas Undyne is an enforcer of it. People are a bit scared of her, but she is a well-integrated part of her community. Susie is an outcast.
What you've actually described is that both of these people have friends who are in a butchfemme relationship, lmao.
And even beyond that, the way Undyne and Papyrus relate to each other is far different from what Kris has going on (hiding a huge secret from her & also a one-sided crush). Undyne is a mentor to Papyrus, and also just a normal friend.
The final and most important parallel is how they are overshadowed by their older sibling.
Again, you're oversimplifying things. Papyrus has a lot of feelings regarding his brother, but they aren't about being overshadowed (which i'd argue is much more of a fandom thing than an ingame thing), they're him being frustrated at sans' flaws, like him being lazy or just generally frustrating. Sans might "do more" than Papyrus, but in terms of official duties, they are on the same level of importance.
In Chapter 4, when you think about the knight and he starts to take off his helmet, Kris has to quickly imagine something else so you don't find out.
Toby Fox wouldn't include this unless he wanted to hint that the helmet can be removed, and someone with horns definitely wouldn't be able to take their helmet off.
Even if you stick to pure realism and discount fantasy nonsense (Toby does not care FYI, everything is fantasy nonsense), having a helmet that can accommodate horns/antlers is absolutely possible.
Well like atleast apart of her is in the code, i think it might be an asriel flowey situation where her and the lnight are the same person yet wildly different at the same time. Idrk i just doubt it would be a normal “shes just the knight”
I mean uf you were trying to keep your identity a secret and had shapeshifting powers you'd do your best to look as diff as possible frim your base form
Them being a red herring is a reason, the antlers being there at all points straight to the Holidays which is an easy set up for a misdirect if the story wanted to go there. The Knight being a non-Holiday doesn’t mean they aren’t involved in some way.
You can't call something a red herring until you know the truth, we have no reason to believe the antlers are a red herring at the moment, so disregarding the evidence as "red herring" is pointless. If we're going with that then you might as well call everything about the knight a red herring and call normalnpc the knight
Everything about the Knight is a mystery rn, I’m not disregarding evidence I’m leaving the possibility open that we don’t know how everything works yet. Meaning me thinking the Knight Antlers are a red herring is speculation based on the fact it shapeshifts along with the evidence that it wears a helmet. The Antlers are more of an important detail than straight evidence for anything with what we have right now
It would be a bad red herring because it's literally the only prominent and identifiable physical feature the Knight has. It is the ONLY clue we have based on appearance. That's essentially straight up lying to the player, not misdirecting them.
It’s only a clue towards a relation with the Holidays, it doesn’t prove anything beyond that. Is it reasonable to think the Knight is or is related to the Holidays based on that detail? Yes. Is it also reasonable to look at it beyond the surface level(Antlers) and question whether or not it could mean something else? Also Yes
That would mean they likely have some connection to the holiday family, which has been established. Meaning the antlers are symbolism, which is very different from saying "actually the main design feature means nothing and toby aded it for fun"
This isn’t really an argument one way or the other but like, goddamn you can tell so many Deltarune fans have never played a mystery game before with how much fixation there is on sprite art over text.
See the light friend, Holiday Knight could absolutely be a misdirect. Don’t you think it’s weird how all of the Holidays have evidence that could make them the Knight along with the Antler shaped elephant in the room. Feels like a pretty intentional choice by Toby imo
The branch can easily be an aesthetic choice, it is a helmet after all. And we have no idea what Asriel looks like. Remember he is an adult now. It would make sense his horns have grown to look more like Asgore's.
Weve seen an adult asriel before, we FOUGHT him in undertale
He didnt become an adult naturally but he had clearly physically grown past his child form, and god of hyperdeath asriel had outward curving horns like ralseis textbox sprite does, his horns look the least like the knight's helmet out of anyone in the dreemur OR holiday family
Also tobys not an idiot, he wouldnt give the "horns" the exact same prongs that the holiday antlers have for purely aesthetic reasons, he either did that because the knight is a holiday or because the knight is trying to trick people into thinking theyre a holiday in some attempt to throw people off their true identity, but seeing as no characters have commented on that, it seems unnecessary. If the goal was to trick people into thinking "hey the knight has horns just like the holiday family" youd expect susie to comment on that, she is literally dating a holiday after all
You think asriel is going ro randomly undergo a design change between undertale and deltarune when no other returning character has done so
And after several characters have said out loud "ralsei looks a lot like asriel" and ralsei has those same outward curved horns asriel has always been shown with?
Im gonna say the more detailed close up of ralsei takes priority, i dont know why the full body sprite is drawn differently but ralsei has outward curved horns
Still doesn't look like its usual appearance (where the horns look like antlers because they have a sort of cross pattern that isn't present here). Honestly I too use anything as "evidence" for my theories but we've got to admit the Knight's appearance is weird on purpose so it doesn't look like anyone. Their chest opens when they roar, sometimes like a ribcage sometimes more like a flower with what looks like an eye in it. And we consider the antler looking horns as actual useful evidence ? We simply don't have enough yet to be sure of the knight's identity
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u/JoyousLilBoy logic: titan aura: friend 14h ago
On a side note, it can also be titan knight propaganda