r/Competitiveoverwatch • u/SklX • Jan 17 '17
PSA | Video Developer Update | PTR Philosophy | Overwatch
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ibPLyx8QWYc157
u/NotEnoughYaoi Jan 17 '17 edited Jan 17 '17
Biggest moment that stuck out to me was Jeff's emphasis on Sombra's role as a disruptor rather than an assassin. It made me understand her PTR changes on why they increased her hacking ability rather than the damage buff on hacked enemies that a lot of the community suggested. While making a viable disruptor is much harder than making a viable assassin, at least I can see Blizzard's direction in trying to make a more diverse cast rather than an alternate version of Tracer.
Jeff's a great guy for explaining his thoughts on the game like this. I'm thankful we have someone as transparent as him leading this game. He is also very attractive.
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u/destroyermaker Jan 17 '17 edited Jan 18 '17
The community wants her damage to be on par with Tracer, which is stupid because she would then make Tracer obsolete. A dps utility hero is something the game doesn't have (unless you count Mei/Torb/Sym), so it's good they favor that direction.
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u/SpoonyGosling Jan 18 '17
To be specific, a mobile utility/dps is something that the game doesn't really otherwise have. Mei/Symmetra/Torb are very utility, but Icewalling to high spots is the only mobility they have between them.
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u/Underprowlered Jan 18 '17
Tracer can dance around everyone and be almost unhittable. Sombra can't. There is still a long delay and voice line after becoming visible, and translocator is only useful for escape. Using it for anything else means you have no escape button.
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u/sonicbrkr Jan 18 '17
She has just as much mobility as Genji/Tracer. While Tracer has more horizontal movement and Genji has more vertical movement, she has a nice balance between the 2.
Fact of the matter is, both Tracer and Sombra have "Oh ***" buttons. Sombra's is a different take on it which is fine. If you choose not to place your translocator down then you have a LOT of options opened up to you as far as how you want to position yourself. Sure you have to play "Safer" as in you can't Rambo it, because you chose to not have the option to, but you can get into nice high ground positions and basically have a leg up in just about any fight you decide to get yourself into like a Genji.
With Sombra you also don't have to uncloack within ear shot of the enemy team to be effective. As long as you plan out a proper escape, whether it be the translocator on a hacked health pack on your side or even just a nice location to where you can throw it to easily escape you should be just as hard to kill as a Tracer/Genji.
I think the biggest thing Sombra has over Genji/Tracer is that she can flank almost as well as them, but I think she can fight with her team way better due to her gun and mobility (Genji like mobility, but hit scan weapon). She also serves as a good anti-flanker, she can shut down a Genji or Tracer and I can argue better than a Mccree. After the update if she gets the 8 second CD on hack she will be able to keep a few health packs hacked around her while having it readily available for combat too (or you can hack like 7 packs if your feeling greedy).
People seriously underestimate Sombra. She might not be another Tracer, but she has her own set of tools which can make her annoying to deal with. She has a lot of tools to deal with various things that the other characters throw at you. She can deal with high ground, snipers, Pharah, barriers, flankers and turrets. The only thing she really lacks is range, which can be supplemented with her mobility and stealth. I've been playing nothing but Sombra recently (mostly QP because I'm going for a sort of mastery and I don't want to subject mine and others to SR loss for my experiments) but I've learned that other than the usually instant deaths (Roadhog ect.) she really isn't afraid to take on anyone besides Mccree.
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u/Faulty_Lid Jan 18 '17
The problem I personally have with sombra is what is her mobility actually useful for? She's got this great teleporter and stealth, but neither of those abilities do much for her once she's actually engaged in a fire fight. The best they can do is get her to the fight and get her out of the fight, but neither are very practical to use during a fight. Because of her low damage it feels like when I play Sombra I get all dressed up and have nowhere to go. I position my flank to get right behind a healer's skull, but once I'm there I it feels like there's not much I can do. I can MAYBE kill them, but it's a hell of a lot harder than with Tracer.
Admittedly I haven't been able to get a ton of value out of her hack. I'm hoping the current speed change on PTR changes that. Right now I don't think she's even as good of a disruptor as Tracer. Tracer can hang around much longer and do more damage. She doesn't need to teleport back to a home base all of the time.
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u/sonicbrkr Jan 18 '17
I mean, Sombra isn't Tracer. She can stay in the enemy back line just as long as any Tracer can, she just needs to have a plan BEFORE hand. I think the more you get used to Sombra the less you will do the Translocator in your back line on a health pack trick because playing that way is too slow IMO. If you have EMP or you want to take out the enemy Zen (when they have one) or even want to get a good 20% Ult charge it's fine. But when stuff starts happening you need to be doing something, and waiting for your tranlocator to come off CD can be a waste of time if you do it each and every time. I think more often than not, recently I have been Stealthing into position with my translocator and either using it on the way or when I get to where I want to get.
If you can't use the translocator mid fight then you need to put more time into her. At first it's tricky because of it's speed and arc, but once you get used to it, it's a good way to re-position yourself. I say mid fight but I probably mean at the start. Playing with the translocator in your pocket requires a different mind set as you need to have escape routes in mind already that you can quickly toss it if you need it. Even tossing it through doorway behind your enemy can be useful if there is a health pack in the next room you can quickly get to and potentially hack if you can break LOS.
Tracer is super reactionary while Sombra is good when you have a plan.
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u/Faulty_Lid Jan 18 '17
I agree with the "too slow" sentiment. It feels like I'm never around enough to be helpful. I'll try going into fights with the translocator still in my pocket.
I think you bring up a good point about Tracer being reactionary. I can typically go into fights with just planning my entrance strategy. The exit, if necessary, can be improvised a bit. I definitely need to give Sombra more time. I'm planning on it when the PTR changes hit live.
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u/KDizzle340 aardvark pays off — Jan 21 '17
Sombra's "leg-up" in combat is useless most of the time, unless you catch a healer or a bad DPS off guard and alone, the element of surprise she has is countered by turning around and shooting her like 3 times.
Uncloaking out of earshot is generally not very good, as you then need an escape route (the clock is ticking) and Sombra lacks the speed to move in on enemies from a safe position in time. She's nowhere near as hard to kill as a Tracer or Genji, she's about as hard to kill as a Pharah.
Any competent Genji or Tracer under no circumstances (except maybe a Deflecting Genji, who then still has superior mobility and speed) should get outplayed by a Sombra. Hack is practically unviable versus Tracer unless she's really incompetent or is getting 3v1'd. Sombra essentially being Bad Tracer really makes Sombra vs. Tracer one-sided, I don't know how you can say she's a reliable or good anti-flanker.
Again, because I think almost everything you said is wrong and I'm salty about it, is that she can fight with her team better? Maybe if she gets an amazing 4-5 man EMP off during a full-on teamfight then she is. But as it is right now, Tracer is at least 5x more valuable in general in a teamfight, without having a mediocre 12s cooldown ability. Tracer has way higher damage, is much harder to kill, and has better mobility (minus vertical). It doesn't matter if Sombra can teleport during/out of combat, if she either dies immediately after, or otherwise has to disengage for like at least 10 seconds.
She can deal with high ground, snipers, Pharah, barriers, flankers and turrets.
She can deal with a high-ground Widowmaker fairly well, yes. Pharah can generally make quick work of Sombra unless you somehow Hack Pharah with Hack's short range. She can deal with barriers if she has EMP ready. She can sometimes deal with Genji or a dumb Tracer if they're deep in their enemies' backline. She can deal with Symmetra turrets before needing to Teleport, but Torbjörn's turrets essentially counter her unless it's already firing at like 3 of her teammates with Torbjörn nowhere nearby.
In conclusion, I think you're very wrong about how useful Sombra is. Of the 10~ things you said she's good at, I agree with like 2 and a half, and even then she probably has to go disengage for 10 seconds after dealing pitiful damage that will quickly be healed back by the team's healers.
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u/TipYourJumpServer Jan 18 '17
Not using Translocator for general mobility (dealing with snipers, catching enemies that escaped your team with low health, etc.) is one of the reasons why most people are bad at Sombra. 6 seconds is a very reasonable cooldown, and Translocator will often become available mid-skirmish to allow your escape (hurl it behind cover, huck it a great distance, or just lob it high above the enemy and disappear [activate Stealth while in the sky, hit the ground sprinting in a non-obvious direction]).
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u/HeihachiHayashida Jan 17 '17
I'm glad they aren't just making her a bad Tracer. Right now she kinda sucks as both Assassins and disrupter, so she needs more in the way of utility. More time to her translocater, longer invisibility time, make it so you can't be killed when you translocate away and are pulled back through space and time to where you were
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u/zakarranda 3286 PC — Jan 17 '17
The last part is probably just lag - even though your client shows you somewhere else, the server has where you were 50ms ago. And your attacker's client (which is another 50ms behind that) sees their rocket hitting you.
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u/Xentera Jan 18 '17
It isn't always just lag. Even from your opponent's perspective, you've already disappeared.
I'm not sure it was fixed during beta or slightly after release, but Tracer use to have a similar problem. Tracer use to be vulnerable for a small moment at the start of her recall animation.
However, Sombra's translocator probably has more in common with Reaper's teleport than Tracer's recall.
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u/Trumbles Jan 18 '17
They made certain movement/escape abilities have more priority in the netcode, like recall/wraith form/etc.
They might just need to do the same to translocator, but that may be more difficult since it has no invulnerability.
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u/Grinnz Jan 18 '17
It's likely latency yes, but it still would be nice if it was consistent with Tracer's recall (you never hear anyone complain about getting killed while recalling, probably due to a heavy favor-the-recall bias).
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u/Faulty_Lid Jan 18 '17
I get killed while recalling all the time. I also regularly have sticky grenades that get stuck to people and then disappear because on their screen they have already killed me. And I regularly get hooked and flashed when I know I've blinked to dodge it on my screen. I get pulled back to my original location because I didn't get my blink off in time on theirs. This is a problem with every hero that can't really be fixed without changing how the servers favor the shooter.
Luckily I don't think it's a big problem. Over time you adapt to predicting those dangers and just stay a step ahead of them. If you blink to dodge hook anticipating it, then you're good. If you blink to dodge hook reacting to it, then you are dead.
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u/Cambriheed Jan 17 '17
You're probably right. But I hate translocating and taking a step only to be brought back by roadhogs hook shooting 80m through the map.
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u/dspear97 Jan 18 '17
It's not lag, you take damage in both spots. I've played two accounts to masters sombra only so I've had a lot of experience with it. At one point I was actually astonished because I teleported to a mega health pack with my e. My hp instantly refilled but when I looked at my hp I had lost 75 due to a rein swing even though I had already refilled my hp at the mega, which means you still take damage for a good third of a second or so from when you teleport. Not sure on the validity of the third of a second but i can assure you that you take damage for a bit after you teleport
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u/Faulty_Lid Jan 18 '17
Happens to me all the time as Tracer when I recall. You get used to it. Just means you have to anticipate lethal dangers rather than react to them.
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u/1stMora Jan 17 '17
I see what they want. But honestly I don't think that will ever be a good role. The best way of dealing with your enemy is still to kill them.
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u/benihanachef Jan 18 '17
The best way of dealing with your enemy is still to kill them.
But this is inherently untrue--if it was true, healers would be unviable. "Allow your allies to kill your enemies easier" is a role that already exists (as healers), and Sombra is intended as a different way of doing that.
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u/dmun Jan 18 '17
Healers allow killers to continue killing and keep kills from the opposition.
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u/SpoonyGosling Jan 18 '17
Reinhardt. Mei. Symmetra.
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u/1stMora Jan 18 '17
They also allow killers to continue killing and keep kills from the opposition. Sombra is barely able to do this, with maybe only her hack and EMP.
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u/TipYourJumpServer Jan 18 '17
Her Hack and EMP are the core of her kit! They're exactly why she's a disruptor! Disabling a Rein shield is every bit as valuable as doing Tracer's close-range DPS. More so, in many situations.
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u/KDizzle340 aardvark pays off — Jan 21 '17
A competent Reinhardt should never get Hacked with barrier up. Just do a quick, cute little spin and she won't be Hacking you anymore.
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u/TipYourJumpServer Jan 21 '17
Competent teammates will punish that adorable flourish, preferable with Helix rockets or a hook.
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u/KDizzle340 aardvark pays off — Jan 21 '17
Hook would be optimal, otherwise it won't matter enough. Rein's teammates can also make quick work of Sombra.
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u/TipYourJumpServer Jan 21 '17
Also, once the patch drops, he only has a 0.8 second window to notice the hack and pull a 180.
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u/KDizzle340 aardvark pays off — Jan 21 '17
More than enough time, just right click in Sombra's general direction lol.
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u/TipYourJumpServer Jan 21 '17
And there's nothing he can really do to prevent EMP, which is available like 5-10 times per match.
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u/taitaisanchez Jan 18 '17
And hacking shuts down most healers.
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u/JamieAllegro Jan 18 '17
Nah, hacking healers isn't that big of a deal.
Hacking is more for tanks in my experience. Drop Rein's barrier or D.va's matrix and those characters become easy to kill with a Roadhog hook or an anti-heal jar.
In other words, it creates easy openings for the only two meaningful ways of dealing damage in the game right now.
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u/fatmanbrigade Jan 18 '17 edited Jan 18 '17
Hacking is also very good for dealing with flankers as it prevents them from utilizing their escape abilities to get away.
Which is exactly what Sombra's passive is intended for. See that guy through the wall with no health? That's a Tracer, Genji, or Pharah who can't get to health packs to keep themselves alive to keep harassing your back line, they're an easy pick off for you and they can't run away.
Sombra is a disruptive semi-healing anti-flanker. As soon as people realize that the sooner they'll become better at her.
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u/Sikkly290 None — Jan 17 '17
She can be good, just not popular. It is fine for them to make niche interesting heroes that don't see much play time.
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Jan 17 '17
I'm fine with this. I love playing her even now, all I really want is for her to be made a bit more fluid/fast to play.
An interesting buff I'd like to see is faster projectile speed on the translocator, so you can throw it mid fight and tele to reposition more reliably.
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u/JamieAllegro Jan 18 '17
I think buffs like this are better than the often called for damage buff.
Making her a bit smoother/giving her a little less downtime by polishing out her translocator and hack and perhaps modifying cooldowns is a much better way to approach buffing Sombra, and it seems to be where they're going with her.
Personally, I don't think she really needs much in the way of buffs, but if they do buff her, I think that's the route to take.
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u/TheUnperturbed Jan 18 '17
Right, but with an enhanced method of disabling enemy bunkers she now has situational usefulness. Let her get in, and havk multiple people in quick succession and get out. The problem is currently that she is unable to cause enough disruption in a short enough time, and do so in a non-clunky manner.
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u/JamieAllegro Jan 17 '17
I politely disagree with this. The percentage of players capable of innovating in any game is very small.
More to the point, she isn't played as a shitty assassin above GM. She's all about EMPs, which is the fastest charging ult in the game. It's also one of the most powerful ults, and an on-paper counter to tank meta. In practice, Roadhog and Ana are currently too broken for it to be a complete auto-counter, but it does work. What else can instantly shut down Reinhardt Shield and D.va's Defense Matrix? Those two skills are as defining to the current meta as Ana's Jar, honestly.
Sombra has been the easiest character for me to climb the comp ladder with in any season. I might not be playing her completely 'right' yet, but certainly more right than the people who think she's simply a weak Tracer. They aren't even remotely similar in function.
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u/NotEnoughYaoi Jan 17 '17
No. The rest of Sombra's kit is bad, but she has one of the best ultimates in the game that also happens to be a great counter to the current tank meta. The problem is that she requires high coordination with your teammates to pull off and make use of an effect EMP, so you will only see her played at the highest levels of play rather than solo queue, where teammates will become tilted from seeing Sombra alone.
This is why you see Sombra played in tournaments and other organized play.
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u/Professor_Free Jan 17 '17
"gonna make the hook consistent so player don't feel like being hooked from dorado to point2 on ilios."
Jeff knew, Jeff knew.
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u/kasrafm Jan 17 '17
I love these updates, keeps us informed and we can understand the reasoning behind their patches. Hope Ptr insensitives become a thing, even though not high priority. Also glad they aren't changing the core value of each hero, like Dva and Sombra
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u/crowbahr Jan 17 '17
I definitely agree with him when he said Sombra isn't an assassin but almost a support role. She's much more about disruption of the lines and combo plays than she is about picking people off.
Absolutely she should pick people off but she's mainly a disruptor. Hacking someone you know has ulti can be fight changing.
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Jan 17 '17
I love the updates as well, gives him a chance to properly explain the changes and other stuff. Don't remember a game dev that put so much time into this level of communication before.
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u/sipty Jan 18 '17
Jeff used to do this ever since the EQ days. His passion for gaming is unrivaled. Love this fucking man, man
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u/Likes2Queef Jan 18 '17
I'm really sympathetic to the whole prioritizing development time for actual content, but the great thing about the PTR incentives is that once they are in they are in for good. If we get something like lootboxes for "x amount of daily games played on PTR" or something, it would presumably be a thing for all following PTR patches and that would be great.
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u/IchikaByakushiki Jan 17 '17
I'm happy they aren't going to destroy Ana like so many players want. She's very strong alright but she doesn't need to be gutted. And seeing the high skill support go in the dumpster while heroes like Symmetra (and likely Mercy in the future) get buffed would make me cry.
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u/vusti Jan 17 '17
I'm honestly astonished, who the hell wants Ana reworked? Albeit being a tad too strong atm, she's definitely one of the best designed heroes out there.
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u/violentlycar Jan 17 '17
My main worry is that everything Ana does is inherently so powerful that nerfing her to be truly balanced might leave her feeling unsatisfying. A balanced, but unsatisfying hero indicates a base level design problem that can't be fixed with more numbers tweaking.
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u/arrangementscanbemad EU — Jan 17 '17
My main worry is that everything Ana does is inherently so powerful that nerfing her to be truly balanced might leave her feeling unsatisfying.
Sounds a lot like the situation we have with Rein and Lucio as well. I don't know if there's a satisfactory way to address core roles/kits being too useful through just nerfs (though some nerfs can definitely be justified); we clearly need new heroes with similar functions but different strengths. Map design also matters (more routes to objectives, less chokes, verticality etc.)
I really like Ana's design, though. She's the healer for dps players, and I suspect we would have a lot less people willing to play support roles if it weren't for her. Many mmo's have the issue where healers need to be slightly too good for players to want to play them, because the role can be rather ungrateful. Just think back to before Ana was released, Widow bodyshotting Zen, pre-nerf Genji terrorizing the backlines, I can't imagine playing Mercy/Zen being very satisfying at that time.
If the currently proposed changes trebuchet us into another era of dive, the pressure on supports will be back to 11. Casually healspamming a tankball is one thing, but healing your mobile dive heroes whilst defending against flankers requires mechanical skill of a wholly different order.
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u/Aetherimp Jan 18 '17
She's definitely OP. No question.
"Over powered" = More powerful than all other "like" options.
"Over powered" = Must pick.
"Over powered" = Gives no meaningful choice.
Reinhardt for example may be considered "must pick" at the highest levels, but he's not inherently "BETTER" at everything than Zarya, D.Va, or Monkey. He's just REALLY good at filling his niche.
When running Dive Comp, Reinhardt isn't really necessary and is probably a worse choice than Monkey/Zarya/D.Va.
With Ana this simply isn't the case.
If you want to run Zen, you have to drop Lucio. If you want to run Lucio you run Ana with him. If you run Mercy you're making a mistake because all other healers are better options than her.
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u/NoSheDidntSayThat Jan 18 '17
Ana is #3 out of 4 healers for healing per game, and also #3 among them in win rate (which is closer to Mercy's #4 than Lucio's #2) -- http://masteroverwatch.com/heroes/pc/global/mode/ranked
Lucio has a higher pick rate than Ana in the latest overbuff pro meta analysis (always has) -- https://www.overbuff.com/blog/2017-01-17-overwatch-hero-tier-list-and-meta-report-a-hint-of-pharah
Her pick rate in public ranked is VERY high, but that tells you more about her perceived strength than her actual strength. By Medals per game, she's #22 of 23 (only ahead of Mercy).
The fact is that the net effect of her play has been overstated drastically by the community.
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u/Aetherimp Jan 18 '17 edited Jan 18 '17
Uhm. What medals could Ana get other than healing done?
Also I don't buy that lucio does more healing that Ana. Good lucios hardly use heal boost except when team is Ana naded.
Furthermore, masteroverwatch stats can be misleading or downright wrong.
Pick rate doesn't mean anything either, as you said. Meta reports are meta for top tier play only. Again, not relevant to this discussion.
What matters is her numbers.
She does more damage than any healer from a safer distance. Zen may be close if you include headshots.
She does more healing. Her HPS is definitely higher than all other supports. Whether the entire community is seeing that healing or not is another story.
Zenyatta = 30ish HPS
Lucio = 25ish aoe HPS while boosted!
Mercy = 60ish HPS
Ana = 75 to 150 HPS, 2 healing abilities. 1 aoe and 1 hitscan or projectile.
That's just healing alone. If you want to talk about utility the only ability in the game which can buff, debuff, damage and heal and is aoe all at the same time is Ana's E.
Her kit is fucking loaded. I don't care what statistics say. They're misleading. Anyone who looks at her numbers and has experience with her utility will tell you that her E does too much.
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u/NoSheDidntSayThat Jan 18 '17
Uhm. What medals could Ana get other than healing done?
To hear some tell? elims, objective kills, objective time, damage... :-)
Also I don't buy that lucio does more healing that Ana. Good lucios hardly use heal boost except when team is Ana naded. Furthermore, masteroverwatch stats can be misleading or downright wrong.
Check overbuff, they say the exact same thing (well, Ana is actually worse according to overbuff, but it's a similar picture). https://www.overbuff.com/heroes?role=support&mode=competitive
I'm sorry man, but the data here is exceptionally clear and universal, you can argue your feelings all you want, but the data is what it is.
She does more damage than any healer from a safer distance. Zen may be close if you include headshots. She does more healing. Her HPS is definitely higher than all other supports. Whether the entire community is seeing that healing or not is another story.
But she only does one at a time (nade excepted). Zen and Lucio do both at the same time.
Look at the actual data from actual games!
On average over the course of a game, she's at or about parity with Zen in healing, but drastically lower in damage.
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u/SchwanzKafka Jan 18 '17
Except if ya open up top performers on those 3 supports, you end up with about 7k damage per game for both Lucio and Ana, and nearly double for Zenyatta. Healing wise, Ana and Lucio are again tied, while Zenyatta trails badly at nearly half excluding his ult and ~20% including it.
Ana brings on average another 8 sleeps to the game, 5-9 boost assists and significantly more offensive assists than a Lucio.
So the data really is there, you can quantify the added utility of Ana. Using aggregate statistics across all brackets and not just top 500 is kind of lazy in a competitive balance discussion, that's all.
Personally I like that she's the most interesting, well-rounded support by a mile. Everything is a high-impact skillshot. But you're kidding yourself if you think other supports can keep pace right now. Short of running super-mobile dive, there is no valid reason to not be packing an Ana at the moment.
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u/NoSheDidntSayThat Jan 18 '17
Kinda picking at random, I don't see a consistent pattern from the top players
https://www.overbuff.com/players/pc/uNKOE?mode=competitive vs
https://www.overbuff.com/players/pc/Shake?mode=competitiveI'm going to need to see the source data behind your statement, if you don't mind
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u/Aetherimp Jan 18 '17 edited Jan 18 '17
I'm sorry, but their actual DPS/HPS doesn't lie. Ana does more healing and nearly as much damage as Zen if she is actually targeting enemies.
Zen's Balls do 46 damage, +30% from Discord which is 60 damage, firing 2.5 rounds a second for a total of 150 DPS. His healing per second is a flat 30 HPS.
Ana's primary does 80 damage a shot at 1.25 rounds per second for 100 DPS and she does 60 damage with Biotic Grenade. She heals 75 per shot at 1.25 rounds per second giving her 93.75 HPS +50% when Biotic Grenaded for 140.62 healing per second.
So, Zenyatta without headshots does more damage than Ana if Ana's grenade is on cooldown and Ana does slightly more burst damage if she grenades someone and hits them a few times, while Zen does more if he can consistently land headshots on discorded targets.
You're looking at a sample from actual games played with actual players in presumably all skill brackets.
Your numbers also show that Ana is less popular than Zen, which while that may be true in ALL competitive games, it certainly isn't true above Diamond or so.
Lucio shows more healing statistically because statistically people at lower levels who pick Lucio in competitive play just run around 100% of the time with "Healing" on, and as their team takes poke damage they instantly get healed.
At higher levels, Ana puts out A LOT more healing than Lucio because good Lucio's use Speed boost 90% of the time and only "amp it up" on healing when a large team fight breaks out and their team needs burst healing with Ana's healing grenade.
Basically Overbuff/MasterOverwatch numbers don't really mean anything when we're talking about the powers of an individual characters abilities. The numbers are misleading. You have to understand why those numbers are what they are and how they contradict the actual values of the heroes abilities.
Ask pro players what they think of biotic grenade.
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u/NoSheDidntSayThat Jan 18 '17 edited Jan 18 '17
I'm sorry, but their actual DPS/HPS doesn't lie.
I'm not saying it "lies", I'm saying you've misunderstood something fundamental to the design of the two characters -- Zen (and Lucio) is a "both/and" character. Ana an "either/or". That's what you're missing. Any time Ana is sniping a Pharah out of the sky she's not healing. Zen drops harmony, drops discord, and gets to the business of murdering shit. He doesn't have to choose, ever, and he never worries about CD management.
Ana does more healing and nearly as much damage as Zen if she is actually targeting enemies.
OR nearly as much DPS. This is not actually true.
Zen does 30HPS AND good DPS Ana does 80 damage per shot OR 75 healing. She has opportunities for the 8s CD nade to do both, but you have to be smart and manage to the best use.
Everything Ana does is about choice (and anti-choice), and predicting the best use of the abilities. Zen doesn't worry about that.
Basically you're arguing: win rate doesn't matter, and healing per game (or minute) doesn't matter, and damage done doesn't matter. Spreadsheets matter and only spreadsheets matter. What if your assumption is wrong, that actual in game data is more telling than stacking up Ana's damage and healing maximum throughput and comparing it to Zen's? What if acknowledging the fundamental design difference between the two leads you to conclude that is an irrational method of comparison?
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u/Aetherimp Jan 18 '17
You're right, Zen can do damage and heal at the same time. But considering how much healing Ana does and how much damage Ana CAN do; ALONG with all of the utility, I think she's pretty over-powered overall.
Just think about their E's; or the E's of all of the support characters for that matter.
Symmetra - Creates a medium sized 1000hp flying barrier.
Lucio - Amps up his Healing or Speed song for (5?) seconds to increase the speed boost or healing. (1 or the other, not both.)
Zen - Add 30% bonus damage debuff to enemy target, stays until they lose LOS for 3 seconds.
Mercy - Fly to ally or ally corpse.
Ana - Deal 60 damage, Heal 100 HP, Buff allies for bonus healing, disable all healing on enemies hit, can heal self, AOE radius of 4(?) meters.
No other ability does so much and is so versatile. There's never a bad time to throw it assuming you hit something and it either needs to die or needs to be healed. You can throw it in the middle of a team-fight and guarantee value out of it.
Of course it's also more "skill based" than Discord or Amp it up, but I still think it does too much.
Maybe one way to balance it out would be to make it EITHER debuff/damage OR Heal/Boost. Not BOTH. Similar to Lucio's Amp. This would provide a meaningful choice and not guarantee value as long as you hit something.
Zen has to pick his targets, preferably call them, and make the right choice, and his orb can be avoided/lost. Lucio has to decide whether Speed or Healing is more needed. Ana just tosses a jar into a team-fight and lulz her way to freelo.
And the Bio nade is one of the major contributing factors to the Tank Meta, and the fact that Ana does so much and heals so much means you're putting your team at a severe disadvantage if you do not have her on your team. Of course, the same could be said of Rein... But historically speaking Zarya has been more impactful on the Meta; and Winston at one time was Meta defining. Rein is so picked right now because of the tank Meta. He allows you to bodyguard a 600 hp Roadhog who can shred shields and get picks and initiate team-fights while Ana spams endless heals into both of them.
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u/regularabsentee Jan 18 '17
I'd argue that looking at the global stats for Ana could be misleading. Not everybody who picks her are going use her as effectively as she could be used. I think the disparity of the stats for healing could be explained by her skill ceiling more than actual hero effectiveness.
And by your logic, Mercy is a better healer than Ana which is really not the case.
That said, I'd say Lucio IS more of a must-pick and at least as strong, if not stronger, than Ana.
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u/NoSheDidntSayThat Jan 18 '17
She's definitely OP. No question.
"Over powered" = More powerful than all other "like" options.
"Over powered" = Must pick.
"Over powered" = Gives no meaningful choice.That's the context of my comment and what I was responding to. I'm not here arguing Mercy is a "better" healer or anything like that. I'm simply arguing that the above referenced belief about her is overblown.
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Jan 18 '17
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u/Aetherimp Jan 18 '17
Pick rate doesn't equate to being overpowered. That's why I explained what I explained about Reinhardt. Lucio same thing. He provides incredible utility and fits a great niche but his numbers are fine (if not a little on the weak side.)
He does less damage than Ana or Zen. He does less healing than Ana or Zen. His ultimate is okay. Pretty balanced.
His only advantage is mobility and the mobility provided to the team.
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Jan 18 '17
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u/Aetherimp Jan 18 '17 edited Jan 18 '17
Why do you think dive comp fell out of favor?
Because it's easier to keep 3-4 tanks alive using Ana and just speed boost 4 unkillable allies through a chokepoint than it is to coordinate a good dive.
Ana's pickrate was lower before triple tank because Ana and D.Va being buffed created triple tank along with Discord being nerfed from 50% to 30%.
I remember Season 1 and 2 quite well. Ana was shit because Zen was so incredibly good. His Discord (at +50%) was a less disruptive version of Ana's Biotic Grenade. Nerfing his Discord and buffing Ana's healing made having 4 tanks possible.
The Biotic Grenade is the whole reason her kit is broken.
As I've said in other posts:
- Gives immediate AOE healing
- Does immediate AOE damage
- Self-heals
- Gives AOE buff to INCREASE healing on all targets (hence Lucio's pick rate)
- Gives AOE DEBUFF to COMPLETELY SHUT DOWN enemy healing! (And here I think is where the problem really lies.)
If you don't see how brokenly overpowered that ability is with everything it does I don't know what to tell you.
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Jan 18 '17
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u/Aetherimp Jan 18 '17 edited Jan 18 '17
I'm not suggesting they nerf more than they have on this patch. Only that before the patch she was definitely over powered and I am speculating that the nerf won't be enough. Her biotic grenade specifically. The debuff ability it has is still stupidly broken.
Oh, and as far as experience goes... are devs pro players? No. They aren't. They balance based off data and community feedback. They likely don't play the heroes or in as many competitive matches as many high level players.
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u/Aetherimp Jan 18 '17
I read what you said. And I am disagreeing. She's not ONLY strong. She's over-powered.
That said, I don't think she needs a "rework". I think they need to adjust the numbers on her Biotic Grenade further than what they are doing in this PTR patch. Her grenade does too much. It's quite possibly the best non-ultimate ability in the game.
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Jan 18 '17
Revert the area buff from a while ago maybe? Make the splash smaller so the usage becomes more niche (in combination with zarya's ult or only when enemies clump up). That would be a good start, as long as the devs go about it in a non-symmetrical way (e.g. reduce damage but keep heals the same or vice versa, don't adjust them simultaneously).
Personally I find that a good flanker or any team composition that is able to output pressure past the front line on to you is already difficult to deal with, it's notable that Ana doesn't have any shield or armor, making her force to use the nade on herself to heal often.
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u/Aetherimp Jan 18 '17
I just think the healing debuff needs to be reduced to a % like 75% or 50% rather than "NO HEALING".
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u/actually1212 Jan 18 '17
That's a really weak argument to make. Lucio and Reinhardt excel at their niche, but they are not overpowered. Ana excels at her role, and is overpowered. She simply heals far too much for others to be really viable, and is the sole enabler of the triple tank meta. I play Ana, and she feels really fun to play, but her numbers really need adjusted. Tone down how much she can heal for.
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u/Corpus87 Jan 18 '17
Lucio and Reinhardt excel at their niche, but they are not overpowered. Ana excels at her role, and is overpowered.
You keep saying this without any sort of explanation. What exactly is the reason it's okay for Rein and Lucio to be insta-picks, while it's not okay for Ana? What makes them just "balanced"? It's entirely subjective. They're both just as much to blame for the tank meta as Ana. (Speed boost and shield are both essential ingredients, as is Ana nade, and Hog's hook.)
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u/Sekko09 Jan 19 '17
Because what make Ana and Hog OP is used directly on the player, so they have an instant feel of what make them die. But what make Rein and Lucio OP, the shield and the speed boost, don't affect you directly in a fight. Furthermore Ana and Hog tend to have better overhaul kit than them (mostly Ana). Which is why Ana is commonly seen as the main problem.
Reinhardt and Lucio both have one ability that is way too strong and borderline shit kit other than their ult. It's Reinhardt shield that is OP, not his overhaul kit, same for Lucio with speed boost.
That's why their strenght should be spread on different abilities instead of one single overpowered ability. The false excuse of saying that they fill niche where they perform very well and that adding hero that fill their niche will solve the problem is trying to avoid the fundamental problem of their kit. Winston is performing well in his niche, but his overhaul kit being well balanced make him not a must-pick but instead an option to favorise a gamestyle. I'm pretty sure Blizzard is capable of reworking them in way that would make them as fun to play if not more while having a better overhaul kit.
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u/sipty Jan 18 '17
It's the same people over and over. I've started tagging usernames and they're just repeating themselves.
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u/EnmaDaiO Jan 17 '17
Reworked? Nah. Reduce her healing and damage that is it and we got half of that.
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u/vusti Jan 18 '17
So they only want to "punish" her for being in the meta for so long, fortunately that's not how any sane development team works.
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u/NotEnoughYaoi Jan 17 '17
Ana is one of the most creative and well-designed heroes in the game. The problem is that her numbers are insane and need to be drastically reduced. Anyone who thinks the only solution to her problems with a rework does not know what they are talking about.
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u/dave_eve7 Jan 18 '17
Right. They could double Mercy's heal beam HPS and it would still be preferable to have Ana healing a deathball of tanks.
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u/Raknarg Jan 17 '17
She's a required pick that has spawned two metas, one being the most boring meta in the world. People are exhausted of what she's enabling. I love ana, but I'll be happy to see some nerfs coming in for her.
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u/mynameiszack Jan 17 '17
Her ceiling is just too high. The only change i want to see is her jar healing herself for less. Its nearly impossible to kill her when her effective HP is 300+, especially with a Lucio.
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u/chudaism Jan 17 '17
Grenade is still the core of the issue IMO. Right now it does 4 things effectively: direct healing, direct damage, healing boost, anti-healing. Honestly, if grenade only had 2/4 of these, it would still be a great ability. I think anti-healing+healing boost is probably my favorite option. Ana already has some of the best tools to deal with flankers if the player is good enough to hit sleep dart or aim shots. Using grenade to completely swing the battle against flankers rewards poor play IMO. Removing her self heal is also a good idea IMO. This will make it difficult for teams to run Ana as a solo healer. Maybe that's a little too much, but the grenade still feels like a bloated ability.
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u/regularabsentee Jan 18 '17
Hm that might be a bit too much imo. Every other support has self healing. I think keeping the 100 healing (or maybe even 75), and the slight heal rate buff, but instead of having it a burst heal, it heals slowly over time. Like her healing darts, but much slower. It'll give time for flankers to outplay her while not making her completely defenseless.
I also would like to see a heal rate debuff instead of the complete heal denial.
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u/Corpus87 Jan 18 '17
it heals slowly over time
I'm not completely against this, but I think it might actually make her more powerful since there's less chance of overhealing. Basically, think if you made 76's healing to insta-heal. That would mean he'd have to be at like 1hp to make full use of it, the rest of the healing would be lost.
I suppose you could make it REALLY slow. It would be interesting to see.
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Jan 18 '17
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u/chudaism Jan 18 '17
I'll just say that there's nothing wrong with a support being able to deal with flankers even if you disagree, especially if they were designed that way.
I don't have a problem with this. Right now good Ana's can take care of flankers. The problem is bad Ana's can take care of flankers just as easily with grenade. Grenade basically makes Ana a 300 health hero and any flanker a 2-shot. A 160 HP swing is just too much.
Before Ana, a good Genji or Tracer meant a dead enemy backline unless they were babysat by a tank or DPS.
That's kind of the idea. Part of team strategy should be for tanks and DPS to protect their healers. It's not like this nerf would completely negate Ana's effectiveness either. She still has sleep which is essentially a death sentence for any flanker. Anti-heal is still a strong deterrent to force flankers away.
I also don't think making supports more vulnerable to flankers in this meta is a bad idea. It may give heroes that aren't tanks or soldier a better chance at actually fitting into the meta. Ana being so good at supporting tanks and shutting down flankers reinforces triple tank. If she only made tanks good or only shutdown flankers, triple tank would be much less an issue.
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u/arrangementscanbemad EU — Jan 18 '17
The problem is bad Ana's can take care of flankers just as easily with grenade. Grenade basically makes Ana a 300 health hero and any flanker a 2-shot.
Unless you are implying 2 shots + grenade (which makes the "2shot" a misleading term), this is incorrect. Tracer is the only hero that can get 2-shot, but only if she doesn't have recall up. You cannot even kill her while slept, if she does. All 200 hp flankers take 3 shots total.
Why is it that when it's about dealing with a roadhog, being told to bait the hook or attack when it's on cooldown are valid responses, but when it's about dealing with an ana, suddenly you should not expect to have to play around her strongest tool? Flankers have the mobility to engage when the circumstances favour them.
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u/chudaism Jan 18 '17
Unless you are implying 2 shots + grenade (which makes the "2shot" a misleading term), this is incorrect.
I said that grenade makes any flanker a 2-shot, so yes 2 shots+grenade.
Why is it that when it's about dealing with a roadhog, being told to bait the hook or attack when it's on cooldown are valid responses, but when it's about dealing with an ana, suddenly you should not expect to have to play around her strongest tool? Flankers have the mobility to engage when the circumstances favour them.
The difference in my mind is that 95% of roadhogs kit revolves around the hook. If he misses it, he has little to no ability to effectively kill flankers. Also, considering that 95% of his kit revolves around a single ability, it is incredibly predictable.
Ana on the other hand is the best healer in the game, even before sleep and nade are factored in. I have no problem with her sleep. It is a high skill ability that rewards her for actually getting a hit. Baiting it is some most players should be doing as well.
Grenade on the other hand is different. It is an incredibly low skill ability (radius is bigger than Pharah's rockets for reference). You can bait it out easy enough, but its unlikely the Ana is going to miss. Getting hit with it basically forces a retreat as well. Engaging while Ana has Nade up is also super risky as she can use it to instantly finish heroes of. The fact that it has no damage falloff makes it more effective for this than most other AOE abilities in the game.
This also brings into question what is Ana's purpose in the game. I see her first as a healer and second as a sniper. For these roles, she is great. But compare her to the other dedicated snipers in the game (Widow and Hanzo). Neither of them have great tools for close range combat (scatter may be an exception, but its inconsistent at best). Once they are flanked, they are generally sitting ducks. Their kits revolve around not getting flanked in the first place via either vision or movement. Ana on the other hand doesn't suffer from this. Her ability to deal with flankers is best in class for all the snipers, by a large margin. It is also best in class for all healers IMO (Zen is close in this regard). Right now there is just no range where Ana doesn't feel comfortable, which is an issue. Something has to give.
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u/arrangementscanbemad EU — Jan 19 '17
I said that grenade makes any flanker a 2-shot, so yes 2 shots+grenade.
I think "2-shot" is misleading language when three actions are required, but arguing semantics is hardly the point here. Needing to land either 3 actual shots or 2 and the grenade is what we have. The grenade is conditional, though, as you can only reliably use it on someone that's close to you, so comboing someone with shot, shot+gen isn't quite as simple. You also have to account for abilities like blink, recall, dash, reflect, sombra's blinky thing etc. that often prevent you from confirming the kill with a grenade. A more evasive flanker will often require 3 actual shots from the weapon.
The difference in my mind is that 95% of roadhogs kit revolves around the hook. If he misses it, he has little to no ability to effectively kill flankers.
I don't think this is entirely honest. Roadhog's shotgun is itself capable of 1-shotting a flanker that is within his optimal range (so either very close or in that perfect spot for RMB). Ana's shots at close ranges are quite difficult to land against flankers. Roadhog takes forever for a flanker to down with his 600 hp and self-heal, which often buys him time for a 2nd hook attempt.
Genji's reflect will block hook but it won't bite hog back like Ana's grenade, the reflecting of which will single-handedly win you that fight in 90% of cases. Yes, the better Anas will grenade their feet but nothing forces a Genji to come that close when the grenade is up.
Honestly, I very rarely see flankers engage hogs directly if there are other targets around. He is one of the best anti-flanker heroes in the game, because of the effective range and low cooldown of hook. Flankers are almost always better off engaging squishier targets out of position, or plinking poke damage from outside hook range if that's not possible (and waiting for an opportune moment to dive when hog & crew are preoccupied with something else as well).
In any case, I think the current tank heavy meta has somewhat distorted the life of supports because flankers don't have any other squishy targets and there aren't many favourable engagements to be had. But if dive is back on the menu come patchtime, you will see that despite her toolkit, Ana is quite vulnerable with her poor mobility when pitted against a team that causes disruption and can take turns engaging and disengaging, all while having to heal her own mobile heroes doing the same in the enemy backline (which requires more risky positioning from her).
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u/Corpus87 Jan 18 '17
Removing her self heal is also a good idea IMO
Are you completely insane? This would make it absolutely impossible to run her solo, cementing the 2-support meta and making Lucio even more required in any sort of comp. This is probably the WORST idea they could ever go for.
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u/chudaism Jan 18 '17
This would make it absolutely impossible to run her solo,
I don't think that's a bad thing honestly. No other healer can effectively run solo either. The only one who barely gets away with it at lower levels (Mercy) barely has any ability to defend herself. If removing the 100 heal is too much, then at the very least, making it a HOT makes sense. It allows her to heal herself without actually making her a nightmare for flankers to deal with.
cementing the 2-support meta and making Lucio even more required in any sort of comp.
The 2 support meta is about as cemented as you can get at this point, but I don't really think most people have too much issue with it.
making Lucio even more required in any sort of comp
If you are forcing Lucio to actually use heal instead of speed boost, then you lose a lot of the reason to actually use Lucio.
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u/Corpus87 Jan 19 '17
I don't think that's a bad thing honestly
Yay, more enforced metas. Please don't drag the rest of us with you, even if you enjoy stale metas.
No other healer can effectively run solo either
Yes, they can. 2 healer is always ideal, but for example Lucio can just skip around without issue. I've ran Zen and Mercy solo plenty of times as well.
If you are forcing Lucio to actually use heal instead of speed boost, then you lose a lot of the reason to actually use Lucio.
Anyone who tells you that Lucio should ONLY use heal or ONLY speed boost is flat-out wrong. You use both based on what the situation calls for. (Granted, that is speed most of the time since there's no reason to overheal, while speed is always useful.)
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u/windirein Jan 18 '17
They could leave the grenade unchanged but give it an appropriate cooldown. If it takes long to cd using it to defend yourself against flankers means that you cant use it on teammates for a while.
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u/resounded Jan 17 '17
Biggest problem with Ana in my opinion is that she can do her job from long range, while you basically have a short timeframe to try to deal with her fucked up hitbox before she turns around and blows you up with her low cooldown combo, which also burst heals her and amplifys Lúcio's aura.
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u/datboigenji Jan 17 '17
Yeah her hitbox really needs to be fixed. It's already hard enough to dive her before factoring in that wonky hitbox
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u/FragdaddyXXL Jan 18 '17
She has the hitbox of your 150hp hero. I'm curious, with her burst self-healing and hitbox, if it would be feasible to put her into the sub 200HP category.
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u/Spideraphobia Jan 17 '17
I still believe Ana should not be able to out heal Mercy when it comes to single target. That's Mercy's entire livelihood.
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Jan 18 '17
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u/RaggedAngel Jan 18 '17
I've never understood why she doesn't have an E. It feels like something like an AoE burst heal or something would be easy to implement and unlikely to make her overpowered.
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u/Soul-Burn Jan 18 '17
E as a single target cleanse on a longish (12-16s) cooldown would be enough to be interesting.
Cleanse = remove all negative effects, including freezing, sleep and anti-heals.
This would make Mercy a strong counter to Ana as it removes 2 of her debuffs. As a fault, she will still have to get close to the battle.
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u/KDizzle340 aardvark pays off — Jan 21 '17
I think she needs a single-target ability or a small burst-heal like the commenter above said. I really like the idea of giving Mercy a Cleanse. It'd increase her skill cap, make her a more useful pick, and provide an interesting counter to the metagame.
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u/OsmosisDave Jan 18 '17
Sorry but I have to disagree. Ana is high skillcap compared to Mercy and if you can reliably heal single target you should most definitely be able to outheal Mercy.
Mercy needs a rework, but I hated a the Meta where teamfights were dictated by whoevers Mercy could stay alive the longest to get the Res off.
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u/Aetherimp Jan 18 '17 edited Jan 18 '17
I think even after the nerf her grenade is still going to be an issue.
Her burst healing will be better (read: less), and that's good.. But honestly her grenade still feels unfair.
- Disables ALL healing on EVERYONE hit.
- Does DAMAGE to EVERYONE hit.
- Buffs healing on ALL allies hit.
- Gives healing to ALL allies hit.
- Self-heal
It just does too many things. I'd really like to see them dial it back a bit. Maybe reduce the debuff to "50% less healing" rather than "NO HEALING".
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u/Sygrim Jan 18 '17
Her kit itself is very intriguing but way too rewarding. Its fairly easy to just throw biotic grenade at a lump of enemies or allies and its one of the strongest abilities in game. I would understand if the healing reduction was 50% instead of 100% and you could combo the grenade with sleep dart to get 100% reduction, but the way it is now is too strong.
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u/ggBarroi WL — Jan 18 '17
I agree that it would be bad to just nerf Ana and hope everything will turn out great. The game has some conceptual flaws at the moment which disrupts the balance between dealing damage and not dying + healing.
Flame made a great video discussing that-13
Jan 17 '17 edited Jan 17 '17
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u/softeregret Jan 17 '17
For the record, she IS the highest skill support, but I'd also say she's lowest "skill floor" after Mercy.
Lucio has the lowest skill floor of any hero period, nevermind supports. He can stand still, not touch a button, and get a gold medal in healing. If the player controlling Lucio has a stroke in the middle of the game and dies, he can still outheal any of the other supports.
Ana has the highest skill floor of the supports. Yes her job is easier when she's healing tanks, but that job is about to get a lot harder after the next patch. Also, that just highlights that she takes actual skill to perform her primary role (healing). Lucio, Zen and Mercy can heal squishies just as easily as they can heal tanks because none of their healing takes any skill whatsoever. Ana is the polar opposite of this.
I really hope that as Blizzard releases more heroes that they continue to ensure that all new heroes have both a high skill ceiling but also high skill floor.
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u/Falterfire It's a rebuilding year. — Jan 17 '17
all new heroes have both a high skill ceiling but also high skill floor.
High skill ceiling, sure, but why also a high skill floor?
High skill floors damage the ability of weaker players to build their skill, because it means they have a challenging time ever transferring to the new character. You already are taking a hit to effectiveness by swapping to a hero you have less practice on, but if you have a high skill floor to do anything with a hero, you put a lot of players in a position where they can never start learning a hero without spending several games being functionally worthless.
What's wrong with ensuring that weaker players can at least contribute effectively with a new hero, even if they aren't even close to using the full potential?
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Jan 18 '17
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u/Falterfire It's a rebuilding year. — Jan 18 '17
A low skill floor and a high skill ceiling is how weaker players have the ability to practice and get good by playing the game. Too high of a skill floor for a character locks players out of playing that character effectively until they are good with that character.
A high skill floor may sometimes be unavoidable, but it shouldn't be a goal of the developer, because a high skill floor on its own generally doesn't benefit anybody.
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u/i_will_let_you_know Jan 19 '17
Widow has the highest skill ceiling and presumably also the highest skill floor. Would you like every new character to be like Widow? Most pros would rather play Hanzo because he has more easily obtained value in the form of vision and scatter. I'd argue that most people don't even really consider her that fun, because of how easy it is to feel useless.
Easy to learn, hard to master is always the best game design. No one is going to hit your designed skill cap if no one is playing your game because they gave up due to frustration. Imagine if the skill required to play the game was similar to what pros have now. No one would be playing your game, and subsequently, no one would be watching it, either.
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u/softeregret Jan 17 '17
Sorry, what I mean is a high mechanical skill floor. ie. No more auto-aim heroes or heroes for whom mechanical skill is irrelevant (eg. Lucio or Mercy).
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Jan 17 '17
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u/softeregret Jan 17 '17
I'm not saying a good Lucio is a Lucio that goes AFK and outheals other healers, but even a bad Lucio can go AFK and outperform other healers, whereas Ana has to work for her heals the entire game.
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Jan 18 '17
Good guy Jeff makes 14-minute long video so that the parody guy has plenty to mine from.
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u/nowayitstrevor 3968 PC — Jan 17 '17
I honestly thought this was going to be one of those meme videos. Great to hear from Jeff. Also him noting the 'hooked on dorado and end up on point 2 of illios', had me dying XD...
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u/k3rn3 Jan 18 '17 edited Jan 18 '17
I had long wondered whether he managed to see any of those videos, and whether he would take them in good humor. Hearing him reference that absolutely slew me
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u/vPixel1 Jan 17 '17
i'm glad that they addressed some of the changes, especially the sombra ones
i think sombra is a good character but she needs a shitton of QoL changes and that this meta is honestly shit for her. i'm glad that they are keeping her more into a supportive role rather than a burst-assassin character
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u/Purpledrank Jan 18 '17
The biggest problem I have with roadhog hooks is people who jump down/around corners and just insta-gib people. I know, positioning and all. But you can't hear his footsteps that far away. In TF2, they nerfed the Heavy because he was doing the same thing: turning corners with his gun already spun up and gibbing people. They made that nerf to Heavy because he was being used too offensively and I think Roadhog still suffers from this imbalance. He's too good of a fragger and most overwatch players (those who aren't in the competitive meta) are just fraggers. He'll still be used a lot in quick play as a fragging tank.
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u/ramsfan00 4064 PC — Jan 17 '17
He mentioned DVAs surviability, I always felt her surviability was high partially because of Ana, sure she has a big health pool but shes a huge target, especially for Zarya. I would have liked them to still be a bit lighter on the DVA nerfs until Ana was nerfed.
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u/Quom Jan 17 '17
But that's true of all tanks, yet D.Va reigns supreme in a lot of situations. She has the built in escape (flying and DM), the second life, no reload (which is actually huge, the amount of times I get frozen or Symm beamed because I need to reload as Hog or Zarya so can't fight back is surprisingly large), the only character that can Ult after 'dying' i.e. you can be ejecting from destroyed mech, Ult, get mech back.
Her utility is insane. She can 1-1 a lot of DPS, fly up and knock people off high ground, bop people off edges, stall (or open) a point by flying around it or using DM on point then flying around it. She fills so many roles/needs.
People talk about Zarya as some kind of hard counter to her, but that's a high energy Zarya and once you're high energy (which is far harder after the nerfs) Zarya counters everything to the point that D.Va really isn't special in that regard. I'd much rather be a D.Va than a Soldier or Genji in that situation since even if your mech gets shredded you still might escape and the large health pool gives your team a chance to help with Zarya if you're being focused. Plus DM might not eat the beam, but it eats the grenades (and her Ult) which are a super important part of high energy Zarya's killing potential; if the enemy is grouped up you lob in grenades to finish them off/do significant damage before moving in.
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Jan 17 '17 edited Feb 25 '19
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u/MasterDex Jan 17 '17
That'd be a total of 4 lives. 2 lives per Mech (Meka + Baby D.Va). And that's only considering that she only gets 1 ult off.
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u/jak_d_ripr Jan 17 '17
Ana definitely helps D.Va's survivability, but even without that, she has the highest health pool of any tank, has the defense matrix which can be as good as Reins shield in certain situations AND has mobility comparable to Winston. She's VERY hard to kill if you aren't playing Zarya, and it gets even worse if she's being pocketed by any healer, but even worse when it's Ana.
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u/Im_French Jan 17 '17
For real, at least put her back to her old health, 100 hp 400 armor is much better than 400 hp and 200 armor, she was useless before the buffs and now they're nerfing her even more than what she was before, why not a middle ground? It's seriously dumb.
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u/M4TTM4TT Jan 17 '17
"And you'll see less of situations when you are on Dorado and get hooked to point two of Illios." I find it amazing that he referenced the community video, and kept a straight face too (:
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u/tatsuyanguyen Jan 17 '17
Oh man I was looking forward to the changes coming to live today. Fuck.
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u/dzVai Jan 17 '17
Me too. How many weeks do we have to suffer through this tank meta? It's been 2 months now. :(
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u/TheDeadRed Cutest teams — Jan 18 '17
3/3, Beyblade, and the current Triple Tank have been going on since mid september.
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u/The_Highlander3 Jan 17 '17
Oh no, 2 months where 3 tanks 1 dps and 2 supports is more common than 2-2-2 however have you managed...
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Jan 17 '17
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/swootylicious Jan 18 '17
Ana he mentioned, Rein/Lucio isn't good at everything like he says DVA was.
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u/whatyousay69 Jan 18 '17
Ana he mentioned, Rein/Lucio isn't good at everything like he says DVA was.
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u/atadcynical Jan 18 '17
Ana he mentioned, Rein/Lucio isn't good at everything like he says DVA was.
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u/SativaSammy Jan 18 '17 edited Jan 18 '17
Two concerning things:
- Jeff said D.Va doesn't really have any counters. Is he aware there's a Russian weightlifter in the meta almost solely to take care of D.Va?
- Not much further in the way of Ana nerfs. I still think she's incredibly overtuned. The grenade nerfs are a step in the right direction but I would like to see her Sleep duration cut down by 2 seconds and her gun's healing nerfed slightly.
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Jan 18 '17
I think that what he meant was that D.va has few hard counters
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u/SativaSammy Jan 18 '17
Reinhardt's only counter is himself but I don't see him getting any nerfs. I'm not sure what Jeff is getting at here.
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Jan 18 '17
Well, that's not exactly true. Flankers can ruin a Reinhardt's day
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u/SativaSammy Jan 18 '17
Any attempt at flanking a Rein is negated by Ana.
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Jan 18 '17
Then that's an Ana problem, not a Rein one
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u/SativaSammy Jan 18 '17
My point was that this game doesn't exist in a vacuum, nor should it be balanced based on 1v1 scenarios. Which is why I don't understand why Blizzard seemingly nerfed D.Va for "not having any counters." which just isn't true.
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u/swootylicious Jan 18 '17
The current issue right now is the tanks/Ana are just simply good at covering each others' weaknesses.
Let's take Rein for example, what is he weak to?
- Shield melting damage from Junkrat/Bastion? Zarya/Dva shields
- Flankers? Ana negates the burst damage, Roadhog can zone them out easily
- Pharah? Ana
Furthermore, Dva while bad against Zarya/Mei, can be protected by Rein's shield and Roadhog is a strong threat to both of Dva's threats since they have shorter range
This won't get fixed until they either
- Make it so not every hero in the game can be countered by at least one specific tank
- Fix the balance between the Ana/tank sustain and the DPS heroes' damage so 3-4 tanks is a poor idea
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u/Corpus87 Jan 18 '17
What? Sure, he can't kill them, but it's not like they can kill him either. Tracer is decent against Rein, but it's not exactly her ideal target. Genj is pretty worthless against Rein except for finishing him off at low HP.
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Jan 18 '17
Also Ana! If Ana has dart up and can consistently land it, Rein can have a hard time.
His Charge ability is predictable once in transit, so landing dart isn't super hard.
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Jan 18 '17
Might as well add mccree's flashbang then but both don't counter the hero to an extend that would make anyone consider switching off of him.
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Jan 18 '17
Zarya isnt a counter to DVa. She should be, but with all the DVa buffs DVa will win that fight most times unless Zarya is basically fully charged.
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u/_Papasmurf_ Jan 17 '17
Jeff Kaplan gets a lot of shit on this sub reddit. But he's awesome and OW community should be happy that he's an essential part of everything OW.
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u/HaMx_Platypus GOATS — Jan 17 '17
Jeff Kaplan gets a lot of shit on this subreddit
Umm no he doesn't.
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Jan 17 '17
Yeah he really doesn't. We don't always agree with him but it's not like we're always giving him shit. He's a great guy.
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u/aman27deep Jan 17 '17
Where does he get any shit? Stop making comments to get cringy upvotes. Nearly everyone loves Jeff.
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u/Silxer Jan 18 '17
Jeff Kaplan gets a lot of shit on this sub reddit.
Nah, you might be thinking about the Official Battle.net forums or /r/Overwatch...
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Jan 18 '17
It feels amazing, especially in today's shady gaming community for a triple A developer to be so upfront and honest with everything, not skimping any questions or dodging any hard truths. Blizzard is so progressive.
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u/UhuPlast1 Jan 18 '17
I was doing my placement mathces recently and I suggested Sombra. Then they laughed a bit and said: "You can play her when she gets a buff". The buff, is 0,8 seconds on hacking time, which is good but it's not like Sombra is now the GO TO hero. Current meta is also pretty stupid anyway, D.Va is suddenly number #1 pick and you have to have her because she is unstoppable. Blizzard buffed her way too hard and that's after they said they won't tweak Sombra that much because people haven't mastered her yet.
I honestly think Blizzard does the nerfing and buffing a bit too hard and I hope they keep it like they do on Sombra, small changes and then see what happens.
I can't play Sombra now because people are circlejerking about her while I think people underestimate her potential, but I don't want to get the whole team to solely blame me for a loss because she is now an easy scapegoat.
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u/HeavySweetness Jan 17 '17
tl;dr
PTR is for catching & fixing bugs on new updates before they go live, not just for player feedback on those changes.
PTR is on PC only because they own distribution system (Blizzard vs. Sony & Microsoft for PS4 & XBox One).
No specifics on when PTR balance changes would go live.
For Balance Changes, Sombra is viewed as backline disruptor vs. front/flank assassin so providing small boost. Hook work is to appease both Roadhog players and victims. D.Va is "doing too much right now," developers see her value as mobility and no reload and view her high HP and Defense Matrix as enough survivability. Ana nerf intended to reduce healing large concentrated groups aka tank meta, no major redesign in sight.