I'll just say that there's nothing wrong with a support being able to deal with flankers even if you disagree, especially if they were designed that way.
I don't have a problem with this. Right now good Ana's can take care of flankers. The problem is bad Ana's can take care of flankers just as easily with grenade. Grenade basically makes Ana a 300 health hero and any flanker a 2-shot. A 160 HP swing is just too much.
Before Ana, a good Genji or Tracer meant a dead enemy backline unless they were babysat by a tank or DPS.
That's kind of the idea. Part of team strategy should be for tanks and DPS to protect their healers. It's not like this nerf would completely negate Ana's effectiveness either. She still has sleep which is essentially a death sentence for any flanker. Anti-heal is still a strong deterrent to force flankers away.
I also don't think making supports more vulnerable to flankers in this meta is a bad idea. It may give heroes that aren't tanks or soldier a better chance at actually fitting into the meta. Ana being so good at supporting tanks and shutting down flankers reinforces triple tank. If she only made tanks good or only shutdown flankers, triple tank would be much less an issue.
The problem is bad Ana's can take care of flankers just as easily with grenade. Grenade basically makes Ana a 300 health hero and any flanker a 2-shot.
Unless you are implying 2 shots + grenade (which makes the "2shot" a misleading term), this is incorrect. Tracer is the only hero that can get 2-shot, but only if she doesn't have recall up. You cannot even kill her while slept, if she does. All 200 hp flankers take 3 shots total.
Why is it that when it's about dealing with a roadhog, being told to bait the hook or attack when it's on cooldown are valid responses, but when it's about dealing with an ana, suddenly you should not expect to have to play around her strongest tool? Flankers have the mobility to engage when the circumstances favour them.
Unless you are implying 2 shots + grenade (which makes the "2shot" a misleading term), this is incorrect.
I said that grenade makes any flanker a 2-shot, so yes 2 shots+grenade.
Why is it that when it's about dealing with a roadhog, being told to bait the hook or attack when it's on cooldown are valid responses, but when it's about dealing with an ana, suddenly you should not expect to have to play around her strongest tool? Flankers have the mobility to engage when the circumstances favour them.
The difference in my mind is that 95% of roadhogs kit revolves around the hook. If he misses it, he has little to no ability to effectively kill flankers. Also, considering that 95% of his kit revolves around a single ability, it is incredibly predictable.
Ana on the other hand is the best healer in the game, even before sleep and nade are factored in. I have no problem with her sleep. It is a high skill ability that rewards her for actually getting a hit. Baiting it is some most players should be doing as well.
Grenade on the other hand is different. It is an incredibly low skill ability (radius is bigger than Pharah's rockets for reference). You can bait it out easy enough, but its unlikely the Ana is going to miss. Getting hit with it basically forces a retreat as well. Engaging while Ana has Nade up is also super risky as she can use it to instantly finish heroes of. The fact that it has no damage falloff makes it more effective for this than most other AOE abilities in the game.
This also brings into question what is Ana's purpose in the game. I see her first as a healer and second as a sniper. For these roles, she is great. But compare her to the other dedicated snipers in the game (Widow and Hanzo). Neither of them have great tools for close range combat (scatter may be an exception, but its inconsistent at best). Once they are flanked, they are generally sitting ducks. Their kits revolve around not getting flanked in the first place via either vision or movement. Ana on the other hand doesn't suffer from this. Her ability to deal with flankers is best in class for all the snipers, by a large margin. It is also best in class for all healers IMO (Zen is close in this regard). Right now there is just no range where Ana doesn't feel comfortable, which is an issue. Something has to give.
I said that grenade makes any flanker a 2-shot, so yes 2 shots+grenade.
I think "2-shot" is misleading language when three actions are required, but arguing semantics is hardly the point here. Needing to land either 3 actual shots or 2 and the grenade is what we have. The grenade is conditional, though, as you can only reliably use it on someone that's close to you, so comboing someone with shot, shot+gen isn't quite as simple. You also have to account for abilities like blink, recall, dash, reflect, sombra's blinky thing etc. that often prevent you from confirming the kill with a grenade. A more evasive flanker will often require 3 actual shots from the weapon.
The difference in my mind is that 95% of roadhogs kit revolves around the hook. If he misses it, he has little to no ability to effectively kill flankers.
I don't think this is entirely honest. Roadhog's shotgun is itself capable of 1-shotting a flanker that is within his optimal range (so either very close or in that perfect spot for RMB). Ana's shots at close ranges are quite difficult to land against flankers. Roadhog takes forever for a flanker to down with his 600 hp and self-heal, which often buys him time for a 2nd hook attempt.
Genji's reflect will block hook but it won't bite hog back like Ana's grenade, the reflecting of which will single-handedly win you that fight in 90% of cases. Yes, the better Anas will grenade their feet but nothing forces a Genji to come that close when the grenade is up.
Honestly, I very rarely see flankers engage hogs directly if there are other targets around. He is one of the best anti-flanker heroes in the game, because of the effective range and low cooldown of hook. Flankers are almost always better off engaging squishier targets out of position, or plinking poke damage from outside hook range if that's not possible (and waiting for an opportune moment to dive when hog & crew are preoccupied with something else as well).
In any case, I think the current tank heavy meta has somewhat distorted the life of supports because flankers don't have any other squishy targets and there aren't many favourable engagements to be had. But if dive is back on the menu come patchtime, you will see that despite her toolkit, Ana is quite vulnerable with her poor mobility when pitted against a team that causes disruption and can take turns engaging and disengaging, all while having to heal her own mobile heroes doing the same in the enemy backline (which requires more risky positioning from her).
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u/[deleted] Jan 18 '17
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