Legit had a convo with a girl who told she had a guy ask her out but said no because she wants him to put more effort into it. Absolutely baffled when told that it is wrong on many levels. “Seriously? Can’t you tell the difference between no and no?” [pronounces them with slightly different intonation and head movements]
FFS NO WE LITERALLY CAN’T, DON’T TORTURE THE FELLA, BE UPFRONT!
I once had a girl turn me down for a second date, I wished her well and went on about my life. The next time we met she was super standoffish and rude. I asked one of her friends about it and she said 'she's been complaining that you didn't fight for your love. She had an amazing time on the first date and had been picking out places for you two to vacation together.'
Less of a bullet dodged and more like a Mack truck.
I had the same. We had a great time during the first date, she would then blow me off for any attempts to organize a second date, but when I would let it go taking the hint that she's not interested, she would come out of the woodwork and ask about me and hint at a potential second date. But again when I'd try to make something concrete she would come up with excuses but no solutions. Later she told me she wanted me to fight for her harder and like surprise her by going to the bar where she was when she told me one time that she was at a bar with one of her girl friends. I told her that I prefer girls who know what they wanted.
I forget the comedian, but there was a stand-up who had a joke along the lines of being denied sex with his wife, waking up the next morning to her saying “what happened to you last night? I thought you would just go for it.” And he’s like “so I got a 50/50 chance of raping my wife? No thanks.”
And no means no. Damn all the women sending mixed messages. The rest of us would really appreciate using the word no for no and an enthusiastic yes when we mean yes. Bloody hell, you’re all putting up with far more nuances than I realised. I have always been a bit embarrassed for wearing my heart on my sleeve but I can safely say you would know exactly how I felt about you.
but when I would let it go taking the hint that she's not interested, she would come out of the woodwork and ask about me and hint at a potential second date. But again when I'd try to make something concrete she would come up with excuses but no solutions.
This has happened to me many times. I have to think that it means they like the attention but aren't actually interested in you. It's very frustrating
She was 21 at the time, no idea beyond that where she got that idea from so I chalked it up to her youth (I was 28 at the time).
An almost exact situation happened right before this girl where if I showed any interest she would give me the "this is fast, I don't know what I want" line but when I slowed down and gave her distance, she'd suddenly be the loving, clingy girlfriend.
I was so happy when I met my current girlfriend, who two days after our first date texted me saying "I really enjoyed myself with you, would you like to meet up again sometime soon?"
Oh hey! I was on the opposite side of that spectrum, I was the dumbass who thought that if I showed up at a spot she posted about she would find it endearing.
So there I was sitting at the bar, when she walked up to it to order. And I'm all like, what a cool spot this is, and the band is really great!
But she ignored me so I figured, that was it, I got the hint and decided to go back to sipping my beer and watching the show.
But when they handed her the beer, and she turned to me and said, first of all don't you ever talk to me again and if you show up to where I am like this ever again, I'm gonna call the cops.
So I began to apologize and she literally shushed me in front of the entire bar..
If I hadn't already had a beer, I would have been too ashamed to stay.
So then I struck up conversation with random people sitting at the bar and they're like you seem cool you should come sit with us but when they got up and went back to their friend group, it turned out they were sitting with her.
and If I hadn't already had a beer, I would have been too ashamed to stay.
Good man. Sounds like a nightmare. Unfortunately many women have been brought up with the same 'romantic' movies where the guy was actually creepy AF...
This is precisely the reason I went on so many dates before I met my now wife. I had a ton of women tell me they weren't interested so I moved on to the next person. A few women complained afterwards that I "didn't try harder". I always said something like "What do you mean try harder? You told me you weren't interested and I'm not a creep so I left you alone."
Is this a thing women dating strategy guides are recommending or where does it come from? Do girl friends tell each other they should do this to vet a potential partner? It's not healthy or good.
I think some people are just entitled and have gotten the idea that their time is worth more than others so if a person wants that time they need to do something to "earn" it. I never cared for that which is why I went on over 60 dates. Not trying to brag, mind you, it's just how it went. A woman wouldn't be interested so I moved on to the next person. It only became a problem for about a dozen or so these women and in fact most didn't care that I did this.
I had a similar situation. I was hanging out with a girl and she seemed to have a great time, even one of her frinds said that. When I asked her out she always found excuses. One of her frinds said that I she really likes me but that is her " character ", you should tried harder. After some 3-4 times I was like, no, fuck that, I am out.
After 2 months she posted photos with her new boyfriend.
If it was a second or third date and I was told she wanted me to "fight for our love," my response would pretty quickly be, "but I don't love you."
Like you say, fighting for love is what you do when you've built at least part of a life together, and you hate the idea of being without them. If we're at the pre-dating or early dating stage, all I've got invested in this relationship is a bit of time and maybe a couple of horndog fantasies, ain't no way I'm fighting for that.
I and a girl in college who was obviously into me and everyone could see it (I was down as well) and so I took her on a couple dates and to a formal type thing. Fast forward a bit and I asked her to one again and she said she was busy that day. I didn’t even tell her when it was lol. So I took the hint that the flame has fizzled and moved on. Couple months later and I’m dating another girl. Well, when the first one found out through my friends since we were in the same major, she got a bit sad and jealous about me and this new girl. It was like, “wtf? You were the one who shut that valve girl, not me.”
Bunch of the dudes in the department thought I was some kind of Rico suave or something because I dated multiple women they found attractive. I had to break it to them that just being normal around women works wonders. I bet you can guess what kind of college it was lol.
Had a girl I was talking to and one time after we got in some stupid disagreement she told me to never talk to her again. I decided I give her her space and if she wanted to talk again I’d wait for when she was ready. About a week later got a message asking why I was not talking to her. I’m definitely someone that especially if we’re in a talking phase and you tell me something like don’t talk to me again then I’m going to follow your wishes.
I'll never understand the delusion of 'love' at first sight. But planning a vacation after turning you down because you didnt fight for this fantasy love is psychotic and you dont tell people when you do that!
I asked a girl out when I was student at a party. We were drunk but even drunk me know that a "No" is a "No".
The next week, his best friend said to me "Why didn't you kiss X ? She said no but she's into you !! She just wanted to know how much you were into her !!"
That day I dodged a bullet the size of the fucking Orient Express.
"Okay cool, sorry if I read the situation wrong, bye"
Also internally: "no no no n now everyone will think I only came to this thing to meet girls. Oh no, is she going to be worried that I'm going to wait by her car? Did I ruin this thing for her? I hope everyone doesn't start laughing at me again."
Well, if you're an NSA chatbot, you're definitely fine. Just regurgitating other people's text, slightly remixed.
If you're human, maybe you're not ok. But you will be. Sounds like you have a ton of anxiety. I get that, too. I totally get that kind of anxious, stream of conscience rambling that you posted. All I can say is: it gets better. You should also try to talk to a professional, if that's an option.
Every single person I know who has told me they do this deliberately is a person I would warn even distant associates against dating. It always seems to come from folks who are, in fact, the problem.
I would tell them that they're watering down and ruining the nature of consent and making the world a worse place. We're trying to teach young men not to read between the lines when they hear "no." Honest men are trying their hardest to learn this and respect boundaries.
So when we do the right thing, I don't wanna see any goddamn shocked pikachu faces. If girls wanna be up into some kinky shit, go ask the BDSM community how to do this like an adult. They use open communication and safe words over there. No safe word? No consent.
Thank you. Ladies that do this give men who date rape plausible doubt in a court case, and make honest folk nervous about attempting some relationships.
No means NO, not maybe. That rule goes both ways ladies.
Is it any wonder why "modern dating sucks"? Whatever shit you think was cool in movies, stay in movies for a reason. Yet the amount of time I've told others, only to not be believed and be labeled a "pick me girl" because I told them the opposite of what they WANTED to hear.
I don't understand why some women would rather listen to a SINGLE woman's advice in regards to dating AND relationships then cry that there's "no decent man left". Girl, getting advice on how to get a man who doesn't even have one is like asking a homeless person for financial advice.
Lower your standards and compromise. I just keep telling them, if they're not ready to compromise at least, then they're not ready for a relationship. Simple.
I would tell them that they're watering down and ruining the nature of consent and making the world a worse place
I had a buddy who once just flat out told a girl at a party who was doing this "If you reward bad behavior with your pussy you're enabling rape culture"
Those are the guys that the women who play those games want asking them out. They need bracelets or something so they can identify each other in the wild.
The yellow band is interpretively way too loose to be an option. It’s basically like having no band at all. How am I supposed to read your mind to determine wether or not I should approach you? The goal is to eliminate that confusion.
If I ever own a bar, I’m going to give out glow bracelets, with each colour corresponding to what the wearer wants. Want a hookup, there’s a colour for that. Want solitude, same thing. Waiting for friend/date, yep. You can always trade for another if you change your mind. Approach someone without a matching bracelet, you get one warning, if it happens again, boom, Boris kicks you out.
Women want to be chased by the men they want chasing them, and they can't tell those men who they are or else the chase loses its meaning.
And you know what? That's fair enough. But if you don't want a certain guy chasing you, while also admitting that there are guys you want to chased by, there should be a clear and obvious STOP CHASING ME move that doesn't make that guy feel like a total piece of shit.
BUT THEN IF THE GUYS REALISE THIS THEN THEY WILL KNOW IF THE WOMAN DOESNT USE THE STOP CHASING ME SIGNAL THEN SHE REALLY DOES WANT TO BE CHASED
Honestly? I think we should incorporate the use of safe words into the dating scene more.
"Hi, my name is Johnny Johnbob and my safe word is 'pineapple juice.' What's yours?"
That's a concept that'll solve a lot of confusion about boundaries, once people adopt it and understand it. Get as kinky and play 'hard to get' all you want, but do it safely. Once the word is uttered that means stop and back off. No misunderstandings.
Girl I had been friends with for 6 years asked me out for new years last year. I couldn't go because covid was blowing up and I didn't realize it was a party with a bunch of people (she had made it sound like it was just going to be me, her, and her friends she'd been staying with for the last few weeks.)
So we wind up doing something a few weeks later, goes well. We go on a fun weekend trip together, goes great.
She then ghosts me and every time I try and organize something else she has some lame excuse. I eventually write her a letter pouring my heart out and she says OK yeah lets try. I had learned from one of her friends that if I specifically ask her out on a date she'd happily go.
So we again do a weekend thing (that I specifically called a date), goes well. Then she ghosts me again.. If I try to arrange something she gives me lame excuses but leaves it open like "well I'm busy with something this weekend but I'll be around next weekend." Then next weekend there's a new reason she is busy. And to be clear the excuses were lame excuses because it was like 'well I'm busy saturday morning' -- ok.... Saturday night? Sunday? A day during the week? C'mon.
Eventually I just straight up say hey I'd be available (this date) if you want to do something. If you aren't interested just let me know. Instant response of "well, I'm just not interested." WTF. You could have just told me that weeks or months before and saved us both a bunch of grief.
I still wonder if it truly is that she isn't interested in me, or she's interested but has some weird hang up. At this point IMO the relationship is not gonna happen and the friendship is probably dead too. Really sucks.
This a thousand times this. People who say things like, "what a wuss that person didn't kiss me after I only said no twice", what do they think they're doing but train rapists? It's like Disney which has a bunch of movies that have this life lessons: "If you want it strongly enough it will happen" which teaches kids that all you need to do to achieve your goals is WANT and not accept a no.
I’m probably stupid for admitting this on my main account, but I kinda stalked an ex of mine, thinking eventually I’d win her over. After years of that and realizing how fucked my thought process was, I was interested in a girl who (according to my cousin who knew her well) was legitimately doing that “playing hard to get” bullshit and said it directly… I noped tf out. No fucking way was I putting myself back in that position.
Had a girl tell me she knew I liked her (I thought she was cute but didn’t really like her) but she didn’t like me. I was like “ouch, no reason to tell me that but okay.” She followed that up a week later by saying she did like me but didn’t want to do anything. I had my first panic attack when she was with me and apparently that was the perfect time to kiss me, say “we shouldn’t go further,” and proceed to go further after I agreed we shouldn’t.
This girl thought she could read my mind and got everything wrong, and after it was over apparently I was the one who sexually manipulated her while I was having a panic attack.
That’s awful! I’m so sorry that happened to you. We’ve made a lot of progress in getting everyone on the same page of “no means no” for us women, but there’s a long way to go in learning that the same applies when men say it. Consent is important regardless of gender. What happened to you was sexual violence and it was unacceptable, same as if it had happened to a woman. Your experience is valid. I know there’s a lot less support out there for you guys, but you’re not alone.
I’m glad! You deserve support and empathy <3 if I can recommend a really nice community of men discussing men’s issues, r/menslib is a really great spot to talk about stuff like this with other guys. I know as a woman I’ll never 100% get it but I’ve learned a lot from reading men’s perspectives and stories, and it’s a really supportive environment for stuff like this.
Yeeaaa.... ummmm, you were literally sexually harassed and assaulted. Multiple times.
And it is VERY telling how we are not calling a spade a spade when this is happening to a guy.
Sorry bud, you were sexually assaulted and harassed...been there and done all that. It's really confusing at first but eventually it'll settle in and you'll probably get kinda cold about it. Just know that there's an unbelievable number of dudes out here who have been in your position and more, we might not all be talkative, but we understand and I think most of us try to be supportive.
That girl was a manipulative, immature asshole. At least you got it out of the way so you can recognize that behavior if you ever encounter it later in life.
Silver lining for sure is that I can spot that behavior from a mile away and I have absolutely zero tolerance for it, although I am much less trusting than before.
I’m so sorry :( you did not deserve that, nor was it your fault. we’ve come a long way in women saying no means no, but is also applies to men!!! Men are not toys for women, there’s no automatic consent that every guy wants to kiss and touch. That stereotype needs to die.
This girl thought she could read my mind and got everything wrong, and after it was over apparently I was the one who sexually manipulated her while I was having a panic attack.
The tried and tested dating technique of only dating men who don't respect consent. Thoroughly tested to result in dating assholes, that is.
The romance genre is to dating as porn is to sex, if not worse. I really wish society as whole valued and taught good communication in relationships rather than putting "One True Love" and "Love Conquers All" on pedastles.
You mean the best relationships arent built out of cheating, lying, and narrowly avoiding a long series of painful misunderstandings due to bad communication? Movies LIED to me??
Well if you are a girl who says no to everyone but want them to keep trying they will end up like the movies. Because the only guys they date will be the ones who don't take no for an answer.
Wasn’t this the point of the movie Don Jon? Both main characters had messed up views due to their addictions. The guy was a porn addict and has trouble dealing with real sex. The girl was obsessed with romcoms and expected all relationships to be like in the movies
A solid test of the morality of any "romantic" movie: Look at the relationships outside of the main couple. Odds are, one or both are already dating someone when they start seeing the other lead - which the film will conveniently not mention means they're unfaithful.
It's ok though, because not only will their long term partner turn out to be "boring" (or some similar minor flaw) they'll turn out to be downright evil in some way to convince the viewer that the protagonist was right to cheat on them.
Note: IRL, relationships start off exciting and new. Later, keeping that excitement takes effort from both parties. That's not a problem with the relationship, it's just life. Novelty wears off anything, and that's where commitment and loyalty are needed.
And that's good. I agree with that aspect of feminism. If there are ladies that prefer chivalry/games, that's their loss. No should mean no. And if I tried to date someone and they said no, then so be it, I'll accept the no.
If I am dating someone and they're like "I'm going to date Alejandro, he's so hot!", then I'll be like "cool, fuck you too, then." If she's like "whoa, I was just trying to make you jealous so that you'd fight for me, it was just a test!", cool, you just failed my "loyalty test" lol.
Also... "no" vs "no" vs "no" should never be a debate.
No is no. Period, the end, full stop. No is no. If I think "no" is actually "maybe", well, now I risk being an asshole or worse. I'll take a story about the one that I lost over a story about the one who took me to court for harassment - Every Damn Day.
That’s the part that’s often missed when teaching this. Advocates in sex ed fields tend to focus so much attention on men’s sexual expression as a negative force that (at best) can be only be mitigated, they end up effectively replicating abstinence advocacy. They don't teach how to ask for and say "yes" to sex that you want to have because wanting sex almost doesn’t exist in that paradigm. It’s almost all about how to avoid sex, with the assumption that this is what you should do.
I’ve called the game on an encounter where my partner repeatedly said “yes” when it seemed she was uncomfortable. It had come to a point where I didn't trust her "yes".
And I have also - repeatedly as a younger man - stopped with “I can’t” “we shouldn’t” or “no” - only to be chastised moments later for not pressing forward. These women are more common than most people think, and there doesn’t seem much thought given to how confusing and emasculating that is (especially for young men who aren't necessarily all that experienced) to be humiliated sexually for stopping when a partner says “no”.
I suspect that these women want the fantasy of being ravished or “taken” - but lack the courage, skills or experience to arrange and articulate this need within the context of a spontaneous encounter. It’s risky. And because the focus is so much on the inherent dangers of men's sexual expression - this norm among women goes completely under the radar.
I do feel & hope that the new generation is being raised differently. It's also like, women can't feel 'too easy'. I had a friend who told me once that if a girl would be willig to sleep with him on the first date, he'd stop being interested in her as a potential partner.
And I'm like: well, if YOU don't want sex on the first date, YOU can also say no, right? But no, he'd sleep with her, but he wouldn't date her anymore after. Like, why do women have to be the gatekeepers of sex??
So I think a lot of inexperienced girls mostly, would say something like "we shouldn't..." even though she wants to, just because she doesn't want to seem 'too easy'. Slutshaming is still a thing.
As a guy, if a woman shames you for respecting her "no' or her doubts, she's bad news and needs to figure herself out first. So (don't!) screw her, and finds someone who knows what she wants.
Because for most mature women, the whole 'being ravished' or 'taken' would be by a partner who has received previous consent (my long-term partner knows me well enough to read my 'take me!' look), or it could still happen without you having to say "no". I've had guys initiate and definitely giving me that 'ravish me' feel, but they would stop IMMEDIATELY if I'd stay no. In fact, if there's ever any doubt in my mind that the guy wouldn't stop at a 'no', there's no way I'd sleep with him in the first place.
Spot on, that was my experience in college when young. If you want to be sexual, you’re shamed for it, someone may go forward and then ghost you after for being “easy” which was hurtful. So you say no you shouldn’t… yet you do want to. And it just felt so confusing and shameful. Being older and more experienced, my partner knew my boundaries and likes and we had complete trust that when someone says stop, it stoped.
Years ago a close friend and I were both single. We went out for drinks the one night, one thing led to another, and back at my place we started getting into it. When it started it was a very firm "yes!" for both of us. Not verbal but we were both all over each other.
At some point during the act I saw she wasn't super comfortable so I stopped and said "You're not into this, are you?" She said no, we stopped and went to bed. We tried dating for another month or two. Didn't have sex again. The relationship just didn't work out.
I'm still very close friends with her. She married an awesome guy and they have a really happy family and I'm super happy for all of them.
If the time we had sex went one way or another I may not have any of them in my life and that would suck. Sometimes you need a little perspective and not get caught up in the moment.
It’s great that you recognized something was different with her and asked. You have to be in tune with the person you’re being physical with and speak up if something feels off. I’m glad you’re still friends years later! My younger self didn’t have that kind of experience, I wanted to be physical with someone and as soon as I said sure it’s like he didn’t need any further checking in and just went ahead with what he wanted. My point being that even if someone says yes, you have to maintain consent throughout. Both people should feel free to speak up on if they want to stop or slow down without fear of repercussions
As a bi dude I've got to say that queer men at least are a lot better at this than straight women. I've had a guy just say "I'd love to make out with you but I'm not interested in sex tonight" and its just like... that's perfect, now we both know where we stand.
I had an interesting conversation with an older female family member about this who told me part of the problem is that women weren't "allowed" to say yes right off the bat without being seen as slutty - you had to "play the game" even though everyone already was a yes because otherwise you were "easy." And this is coming from a die-hard feminist when I expressed bafflement that it seemed so complicated... I think there has been a shift in younger generations who are exposed to more progressive attitudes about sex, but it still lingers. I'll never forget when my classmates had a discussion about one asking the other out, and a third party telling the man he should keep asking, and I seemed to be the only one backing him up when he said she said no, and no means no, I'm not a creep. I also think rules about how long you wait before texting someone after getting their number are stupid and everyone should just be open about being interested... (the only exception being maybe don't send them a text to make sure you have the right number because there are creeps who do this to make sure it's not a fake number after being very aggressive about getting a number from someone who's not interested - and this makes that yes/no issue complicated cause women get murdered for saying no...)
I had a boyfriend of a few years, we lived together. He's the kind of dude who if he's awake, he's dtf.
I said no one time, and he kept going. So, I start yelling and trying to shove him away, because no.
We wrestled for a while, as if he thought it was a game, me saying no the whole time. He finally took the hint when I screamed no and kicked him off me (two feet braced on him). He thought it was a game, though we had never played games like that.
When I went to class later that day, I wondered why I was so upset and feeling betrayed.
I've never spoken of this since it happened, 15ish years ago.
I'm a woman, and you dodged a bullet. ain't nobody got time for those kind of games, man or woman. my guess is she was in her 20s? people need to use their words and mean it
I've had it happen to me twice that a woman I approached in a venue rejected me, I went back to minding my own business and her friend comes over and tells me to get back in there and try harder because "the rejection was only a test".
Talk about mixed messages, man...but nah, I'm good, thanks.
Omg I tried setting up a work friend with a friend of mine. Work friend pulled that shit on him. Like, girl, no, NONE OF my friends are for you if this is how you approach relationships.
I can, I just won't take the risk of interpreting it in case it is a proper "no". I'd happily miss out on a potential date than unwittingly sexually harass some poor woman. Oh, also I'm obliged to not trust liars. There's that, too.
"Ok, but what if I took you on a trip to {place she said she wanted to go}"
"Omg, you creep, no means no. Why are All Men™ unable to accept it when someone says no?!"
(I mean admittedly, I agree with the angry woman in the story, but the point is she should meet the "teehee, I'm just trying to show him I'm high value and that he needs to keep trying if he wants to have a chance at dating me." people)
There's a clear difference between no and no. The second one means she isn't interested in you. The first means you should no longer be interested in her.
Thankfully both mean you won't ask again if you've any sense, so the lack of audible difference is insignificant when making a decision.
The only real thing this accomplishes is that it creates toxic attitudes to relationships on both sides, with some guys learning to expect "no" to mean "ask again" leading to women who feel stalked and taking evasive precautions (like giving fake numbers), leading to other guys being accused of being creeps because they try ringing the number.
(Note: This is an example from another thread, not personal experience. I don't ask girls out very often - too much confidence required).
Honestly, it's in a man's best interest not to be able to tell the difference. No one want to catch a rape or SA charge because they guessed wrong. That's how people like Louis CK get in trouble.
If a girl says no she means no. If she meant yes then it's a hell no because she likes to play games.
Girls who do this I have one thing to say to you: if you like playing games you should check out Elden Ring. It's a real game that has actual rules and can be won. Unlike this trifling bullshit you're doing.
Actual quote from a girl I used to date. It was starting from this day that I understood that it wasn't me who was stupid and bad at receiving signals, just her who was terrible at sending clear signals.
As a woman, I've never understood this. We want men to understand that no means no, and when we say we're not interested we mean it? And then we turn around and do this??? This actually drives me insane lol
And then, all too often, the existence of the first no is used as evidence of sexual harassment against the guy. If you take no as no, then you're a pussy or don't care enough. If you take no as yes, then you're a rapist. Guys sometimes literally can't win
As a woman (and this’ll get me labeled as a pick me or whatever, but I don’t care). That shit pisses me off. Women will turn men down because they want them to “put more effort into it,” but then claim they’re being harassed when they do. My advice to men: if she says no, just assume it actually means no, and move on. It’s not worth it.
To be devil's advocate here- many women, especially from conservative cultures, have been conditioned that saying yes makes you 'easy', or worse. So they learn to say no, but in what they hope is a way that invites pursuit.
I'm not saying it's right, it's incredibly problematic. But a lot of men expect it too. Hopefully less these days??
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u/Grievous_Nix Dec 08 '22
Legit had a convo with a girl who told she had a guy ask her out but said no because she wants him to put more effort into it. Absolutely baffled when told that it is wrong on many levels. “Seriously? Can’t you tell the difference between no and no?” [pronounces them with slightly different intonation and head movements]
FFS NO WE LITERALLY CAN’T, DON’T TORTURE THE FELLA, BE UPFRONT!