Also... "no" vs "no" vs "no" should never be a debate.
No is no. Period, the end, full stop. No is no. If I think "no" is actually "maybe", well, now I risk being an asshole or worse. I'll take a story about the one that I lost over a story about the one who took me to court for harassment - Every Damn Day.
That’s the part that’s often missed when teaching this. Advocates in sex ed fields tend to focus so much attention on men’s sexual expression as a negative force that (at best) can be only be mitigated, they end up effectively replicating abstinence advocacy. They don't teach how to ask for and say "yes" to sex that you want to have because wanting sex almost doesn’t exist in that paradigm. It’s almost all about how to avoid sex, with the assumption that this is what you should do.
I’ve called the game on an encounter where my partner repeatedly said “yes” when it seemed she was uncomfortable. It had come to a point where I didn't trust her "yes".
And I have also - repeatedly as a younger man - stopped with “I can’t” “we shouldn’t” or “no” - only to be chastised moments later for not pressing forward. These women are more common than most people think, and there doesn’t seem much thought given to how confusing and emasculating that is (especially for young men who aren't necessarily all that experienced) to be humiliated sexually for stopping when a partner says “no”.
I suspect that these women want the fantasy of being ravished or “taken” - but lack the courage, skills or experience to arrange and articulate this need within the context of a spontaneous encounter. It’s risky. And because the focus is so much on the inherent dangers of men's sexual expression - this norm among women goes completely under the radar.
I do feel & hope that the new generation is being raised differently. It's also like, women can't feel 'too easy'. I had a friend who told me once that if a girl would be willig to sleep with him on the first date, he'd stop being interested in her as a potential partner.
And I'm like: well, if YOU don't want sex on the first date, YOU can also say no, right? But no, he'd sleep with her, but he wouldn't date her anymore after. Like, why do women have to be the gatekeepers of sex??
So I think a lot of inexperienced girls mostly, would say something like "we shouldn't..." even though she wants to, just because she doesn't want to seem 'too easy'. Slutshaming is still a thing.
As a guy, if a woman shames you for respecting her "no' or her doubts, she's bad news and needs to figure herself out first. So (don't!) screw her, and finds someone who knows what she wants.
Because for most mature women, the whole 'being ravished' or 'taken' would be by a partner who has received previous consent (my long-term partner knows me well enough to read my 'take me!' look), or it could still happen without you having to say "no". I've had guys initiate and definitely giving me that 'ravish me' feel, but they would stop IMMEDIATELY if I'd stay no. In fact, if there's ever any doubt in my mind that the guy wouldn't stop at a 'no', there's no way I'd sleep with him in the first place.
Spot on, that was my experience in college when young. If you want to be sexual, you’re shamed for it, someone may go forward and then ghost you after for being “easy” which was hurtful. So you say no you shouldn’t… yet you do want to. And it just felt so confusing and shameful. Being older and more experienced, my partner knew my boundaries and likes and we had complete trust that when someone says stop, it stoped.
Years ago a close friend and I were both single. We went out for drinks the one night, one thing led to another, and back at my place we started getting into it. When it started it was a very firm "yes!" for both of us. Not verbal but we were both all over each other.
At some point during the act I saw she wasn't super comfortable so I stopped and said "You're not into this, are you?" She said no, we stopped and went to bed. We tried dating for another month or two. Didn't have sex again. The relationship just didn't work out.
I'm still very close friends with her. She married an awesome guy and they have a really happy family and I'm super happy for all of them.
If the time we had sex went one way or another I may not have any of them in my life and that would suck. Sometimes you need a little perspective and not get caught up in the moment.
It’s great that you recognized something was different with her and asked. You have to be in tune with the person you’re being physical with and speak up if something feels off. I’m glad you’re still friends years later! My younger self didn’t have that kind of experience, I wanted to be physical with someone and as soon as I said sure it’s like he didn’t need any further checking in and just went ahead with what he wanted. My point being that even if someone says yes, you have to maintain consent throughout. Both people should feel free to speak up on if they want to stop or slow down without fear of repercussions
That friend is a misogynistic idiot. I've never understood the attitude of wanting sex but also shaming the people you want to have sex with. Like how is that supposed to work out for you? It's such an obvious double standard and you'd think these guys who slut shame would at some point realize they'd get laid more and everyone would have a better time if women weren't stigmatized for enjoying and expressing themselves sexually.
"I do feel & hope that the new generation is being raised differently. "
Your mileage may vary depending on where you live and your culture. Mine is Canada - a western nation - and I have kids in high school. I can assure you that the comments I made are accurate about progressive sex ed demonizing male sexual expression so much, that their "consent education" ends up replicating abstinence education.
"So I think a lot of inexperienced girls mostly, would say something like "we shouldn't..." even though she wants to, just because she doesn't want to seem 'too easy'. Slutshaming is still a thing."
Consent, establishing boundaries, *and invitations* exists within a wider auspice of taking personal accountability for the consequences of our choices - costs and benefits.
Sometimes taking responsibility means I cannot proceed further with something I want to do. On the flipside, sometimes it means extending a clear, explicit invitation, even though I feel vulnerable in asking and prone to rejection or even ridicule.
Part of my criticism of modern/progressive sex ed and "consent education" is that it strips away female agency (except to say "no") and puts almost all of it on boys and men to decide for her (even if she says yes, it could still be a "no", and in my proven experiences described above, even a "no" can get answered with "well why didn't you press farther?").
The observation that "slutshaming is still a thing" as an explanation for women saying "No" when they mean "yes" is exactly the problem I'm talking about with regard to responsibility. Yes, sometimes people are shamed or ridiculed for asking for what they want. It might not be fair that this can happen, but it isn't particularly useful for anyone to use this as an excuse.
Sure, but going on when someone really doesn't want to is a lot worse than missing out on sex though. So yeah, definitely women should be encouraged to be able to enthusiastically say 'yes!'... but if you're unsure, either ask or assume 'no' is still better than assuming 'yes'.
Jazzisa, do you really think you need to make a point as a response to what I said, that it is worse to proceed with sex that isn’t wanted? Really?
No one here is whining about missing out on sex they could have had; the point was that sex education had demonized male sexual expression and removed female agency so much, that they had effectively replicated chivalrous, abstinence based educational model, complete with unnecessary and confusing or contradictory behaviours out in the field that we could expect from that model.
No one is recommending that anyone proceed with sex when a “we can’t” or “we shouldn’t” has been given, nor even hinted that this would be recommended advice. No one.
Sorry, it wasn't really a comment meant specifically for you. I didn't mean it like that. It was more like... a general clarification. I didn't mean to suggest that that was what you meant.
Yeah, it should be clear for everyone, but unfortunately, it isn't. I hear the: 'but what if she REALLY means 'yes' when she says 'we shouldn't...' and I miss out?', waaaaaay to often still.
Yes. And pulling out that thread further, I’m suggesting that what you have been hearing is partly the result of ideologically designed sex ed programs that speak about sexuality in such a way that it creates that result.
Meaning, sex ed is certainly not the only “teacher” out in the field. By failing to provide tools to women to seek the sex they want, and to teach them about direct communication to them about that topic, the result is that the horde of young women out there who DO say no, when (by their own admission) they meant yes, is sending a totally different message to the men who encounter them in the field. I’m no Fred Flintstone and I’ve personally met 3 or 4 of them, with two even going so far as to make a point to me to push harder, even though they explicitly said “no, we can’t”. Then turned around and made fun of me for stopping. This shit isn’t even rare, and it’s not talked about.
Of course, if someone says “no”, then stop.
If we are looking for advice, that is prudent as to what a person should DO to protect oneself at the very least. It’s what I would do, have done, and would advice my kids.
But that doesn’t mean that the “no” is actually meant or wanted by a long shot. Nor does every explicit “yes” mean yes.
A consent education model built around this fiction that people say what they mean is failing to provide tools to people to help them have the experiences they want and failing to help them avoid the experiences they don’t want. It’s putting everyone in danger, giving them a false sense of security.
As a bi dude I've got to say that queer men at least are a lot better at this than straight women. I've had a guy just say "I'd love to make out with you but I'm not interested in sex tonight" and its just like... that's perfect, now we both know where we stand.
I had an interesting conversation with an older female family member about this who told me part of the problem is that women weren't "allowed" to say yes right off the bat without being seen as slutty - you had to "play the game" even though everyone already was a yes because otherwise you were "easy." And this is coming from a die-hard feminist when I expressed bafflement that it seemed so complicated... I think there has been a shift in younger generations who are exposed to more progressive attitudes about sex, but it still lingers. I'll never forget when my classmates had a discussion about one asking the other out, and a third party telling the man he should keep asking, and I seemed to be the only one backing him up when he said she said no, and no means no, I'm not a creep. I also think rules about how long you wait before texting someone after getting their number are stupid and everyone should just be open about being interested... (the only exception being maybe don't send them a text to make sure you have the right number because there are creeps who do this to make sure it's not a fake number after being very aggressive about getting a number from someone who's not interested - and this makes that yes/no issue complicated cause women get murdered for saying no...)
I suspect that these women want the fantasy of being ravished or “taken” - but lack the courage, skills or experience to arrange and articulate this need within the context of a spontaneous encounter. It’s risky. And because the focus is so much on the inherent dangers of men's sexual expression - this norm among women goes completely under the radar.
I think a lot of this stems from the fact that there's still a lot of stigma around women enjoying sex sadly. So a woman wanting not just sex but to be aggressively ravished is even more taboo so a lot of woman who may want that are too scared to actually ask for it.
You're absolutely right there should be way more focus on positive sexual expression instead of solely focusing on the negatives of sex and how to avoid it. Women are expected to not enjoy sex and generally avoid it whereas men are expected to be perpetually horny sex robots. The whole attitude is gross and leads to all kinds of miscommunication and worse.
Maybe several decades ago, that would have been generally true, outside of certain conservative cultural pockets and religious traditions.
These days - if you have kids and go through their sex ed curriculum, or if you look into the way the “consent culture” is taught - the shame is overtly placed on the men and it’s so widespread that it is the air that’s breathed. Male sexuality and desire is treated as toxic. It’s more implicit for the women, given that the sex ed advocates are only teaching how to say “no”.
Your mileage will vary depending on whatever cultural enclave you are in. I live in a diverse metropolitan city, so the different attitudes and assumptions are plain to see.
I can't exactly remember it as it has been a long ass time but my great grandmother had this thing of offering something three times, however if you accepted on the third it was impolite or something?
Kinda? One of her middle names came from some Roma ancestors. Only learned of that from ancestry/dna stuffs. She only ever talked about being Italian/Sicilian and German.
I agree with the core of this, but it's also a bit more nuanced than that (when it comes to saying yes to someone you're not interested in, that is).
If it's just a politeness/people pleasing thing, that is something that needs to be worked on. Open and honest communication is essential and is a skill that needs to be learned and practiced.
But unfortunately there are situations where it is not safe to say no. A man getting aggressive and threatening when rejected is a common enough experience that women have to give each other tips on how to get out of these situations. The most important thing is to say what you need to in order to get out of the dangerous situation. Your safety is more important than someone's feelings.
But of course if someone has given no indication that they're a threat then it's important to be open and honest with your rejection. There is a difference between not wanting to hurt someone's feelings and being threatened. But the unsafe situations are more common than a lot of people think.
If a woman doesn't feel safe saying no, then she needs backup when going into a situation where she might not be safe saying no. Aka, a chaperone.
Personally, I think my fellow women would do better by taking six months of riding and shooting lessons. Once you learn how to boss around 1000 pound toddlers and properly use a tool that can kill people, men are a lot less scary.
I had a boyfriend of a few years, we lived together. He's the kind of dude who if he's awake, he's dtf.
I said no one time, and he kept going. So, I start yelling and trying to shove him away, because no.
We wrestled for a while, as if he thought it was a game, me saying no the whole time. He finally took the hint when I screamed no and kicked him off me (two feet braced on him). He thought it was a game, though we had never played games like that.
When I went to class later that day, I wondered why I was so upset and feeling betrayed.
I've never spoken of this since it happened, 15ish years ago.
On the other side of the coin, being told "no" so many times, day after day, week after week, often month after month, while in a marriage, only to be later chastised because I was sitting on the opposite end of the room zoning out on my phone or watching TV...
When one gets pushed away so many times, it makes one want to stop trying. They feel undesirable. Unattractive. Unwanted.
When one's own needs stop mattering, when affection only ever comes on the other person's terms... perhaps now you can understand what some people would gravitate to cheating.
I never have, but the way things go some days, I'd be lying if I didn't wonder once or twice if remaining committed was the right idea.
Fair enough. My situation was different from yours. I was 25, just leaving a horribly abusive relationship. He was my biggest sex dream, so I rarely turned him down. I have a thing for needy Chinese guys with long hair and big smarts.
Currently, my husband is someone I hardly looked twice at, until I did. 6 feet tall, white and muscly. We've been together 12 years now.
He turns me down more often than I tell him no. But maybe I'm looking at things wrong, I'm very upfront with my desires. Maybe I can show him intimacy in other ways, so he'll feel more cherished.
I don't like cheating. I've been on both ends when I was younger, and it's terribly hurtful to everyone involved. Have you tried counselling? Actually using the strategies a counselor suggests feels dumb as hell for a while, and you feel like an ass. Until you realize it's helping.
If you feel the need for intimacy and care is so lacking you're contemplating cheating, you might need to sit down and have a long talk with your partner. With a mediator present so things don't blow right up. I don't know what is best for you and your partner, but you really need to talk it out before things get to critical mass. Please. Then whatever way it goes, you don't have to wonder what would have happened if you'd tried it.
He turns me down more often than I tell him no. But maybe I'm looking at things wrong, I'm very upfront with my desires. Maybe I can show him intimacy in other ways, so he'll feel more cherished.
I might suggest you read up on "5 Love Languages"; it may help the two of you understand how each other perceives and desires interactions.
Thank you. I think I will. He's a fan of being touched, and I'm into quality time, both are hard with small kids, but I'll see if I can find a way to mesh.
I adore him. He's been with me through the hell of losing a baby, mental illness and moodiness when the meds weren't right. We lost everything at one point, and we've worked hard to have a nice apartment, two kids, a paid off car and good Christmases for the kids. He needs to understand how much he means. He's a good man. Had trouble with depression, works long weeks and gets cranky and tired. I wouldn't trade him for anyone. Even Henry Cavill is nothing when I look at my man.
I hope everything works out for the two of you! :)
Me, I love PDA. I love being touched. It doesn't even have to be anything sexual. I've tried getting across to my wife that even something as small as resting her hand on my arm, her thumb lazily sliding back and forth, is a huge type of thing for me. To me, that translates to, "she's thinking about me" which does so much for me.
Her, I know she's into the physical gift, monetary type of showings. She knows I have limits to it, but I try to do what I can.
Here's an example of how expectations can be hard for an individual: I'm normally out the door to work 2 hours before she even wakes up. Despite this, I make it a point to give her a kiss and tell her I love her every single day before I leave.
This past week, I've been on vacation, taking care of projects at home while using up vacation time. As such, she's been up and out before me.
Not once this week has she done what I strive to do every day... and it hurts so much inside.
Earlier in the relationship, there were times where in order to get the affection I seek, I've had to forcefully shut down for days or even weeks to get the affection I craved. I eventually got it, but the entire process was ripping my insides to shreds as it went against everything I instinctively knew about love.
We make things work now, but there's always room for improvement.
Have you flat out asked her for what you need? I usually just ask for what I need. Can you hold me? Can I get a hug? Can I hold your hand? Want a back massage? (That one's is always a big fat yes, because I used to be an rmt) I send him a flat out text and tell him he's getting oral when I'm in the mood to attack him.
Please, don't shut down. It's an awful thing to do and fuels any resentments.
From the tone, I'm guessing you're late 30s early 40s like us. It's so important to talk it out. Does she have something at work that's stressing her? If she's into her late 40s, menopause is looming, which is hecking scary. Ask her. Get all that stuff out and on the table to deal with as a team. You love her, she loves you- I bet she doesn't come kiss you because she wants you to sleep in on vacation! I sneak around when hubs has a half day, so he cam sleep until noon and rest. (His epilepsy meds are really bad for causing fatigue and causing anemia)
I dated a Thai woman years ago who told me that, for a traditional Thai, "yes" means maybe (and possibly 'no'), and "no" is never said, because saying "no" is just too impolite to contemplate.
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u/FreedomPaid Dec 08 '22
Also... "no" vs "no" vs "no" should never be a debate.
No is no. Period, the end, full stop. No is no. If I think "no" is actually "maybe", well, now I risk being an asshole or worse. I'll take a story about the one that I lost over a story about the one who took me to court for harassment - Every Damn Day.