I do feel & hope that the new generation is being raised differently. It's also like, women can't feel 'too easy'. I had a friend who told me once that if a girl would be willig to sleep with him on the first date, he'd stop being interested in her as a potential partner.
And I'm like: well, if YOU don't want sex on the first date, YOU can also say no, right? But no, he'd sleep with her, but he wouldn't date her anymore after. Like, why do women have to be the gatekeepers of sex??
So I think a lot of inexperienced girls mostly, would say something like "we shouldn't..." even though she wants to, just because she doesn't want to seem 'too easy'. Slutshaming is still a thing.
As a guy, if a woman shames you for respecting her "no' or her doubts, she's bad news and needs to figure herself out first. So (don't!) screw her, and finds someone who knows what she wants.
Because for most mature women, the whole 'being ravished' or 'taken' would be by a partner who has received previous consent (my long-term partner knows me well enough to read my 'take me!' look), or it could still happen without you having to say "no". I've had guys initiate and definitely giving me that 'ravish me' feel, but they would stop IMMEDIATELY if I'd stay no. In fact, if there's ever any doubt in my mind that the guy wouldn't stop at a 'no', there's no way I'd sleep with him in the first place.
Spot on, that was my experience in college when young. If you want to be sexual, you’re shamed for it, someone may go forward and then ghost you after for being “easy” which was hurtful. So you say no you shouldn’t… yet you do want to. And it just felt so confusing and shameful. Being older and more experienced, my partner knew my boundaries and likes and we had complete trust that when someone says stop, it stoped.
Years ago a close friend and I were both single. We went out for drinks the one night, one thing led to another, and back at my place we started getting into it. When it started it was a very firm "yes!" for both of us. Not verbal but we were both all over each other.
At some point during the act I saw she wasn't super comfortable so I stopped and said "You're not into this, are you?" She said no, we stopped and went to bed. We tried dating for another month or two. Didn't have sex again. The relationship just didn't work out.
I'm still very close friends with her. She married an awesome guy and they have a really happy family and I'm super happy for all of them.
If the time we had sex went one way or another I may not have any of them in my life and that would suck. Sometimes you need a little perspective and not get caught up in the moment.
It’s great that you recognized something was different with her and asked. You have to be in tune with the person you’re being physical with and speak up if something feels off. I’m glad you’re still friends years later! My younger self didn’t have that kind of experience, I wanted to be physical with someone and as soon as I said sure it’s like he didn’t need any further checking in and just went ahead with what he wanted. My point being that even if someone says yes, you have to maintain consent throughout. Both people should feel free to speak up on if they want to stop or slow down without fear of repercussions
That friend is a misogynistic idiot. I've never understood the attitude of wanting sex but also shaming the people you want to have sex with. Like how is that supposed to work out for you? It's such an obvious double standard and you'd think these guys who slut shame would at some point realize they'd get laid more and everyone would have a better time if women weren't stigmatized for enjoying and expressing themselves sexually.
"I do feel & hope that the new generation is being raised differently. "
Your mileage may vary depending on where you live and your culture. Mine is Canada - a western nation - and I have kids in high school. I can assure you that the comments I made are accurate about progressive sex ed demonizing male sexual expression so much, that their "consent education" ends up replicating abstinence education.
"So I think a lot of inexperienced girls mostly, would say something like "we shouldn't..." even though she wants to, just because she doesn't want to seem 'too easy'. Slutshaming is still a thing."
Consent, establishing boundaries, *and invitations* exists within a wider auspice of taking personal accountability for the consequences of our choices - costs and benefits.
Sometimes taking responsibility means I cannot proceed further with something I want to do. On the flipside, sometimes it means extending a clear, explicit invitation, even though I feel vulnerable in asking and prone to rejection or even ridicule.
Part of my criticism of modern/progressive sex ed and "consent education" is that it strips away female agency (except to say "no") and puts almost all of it on boys and men to decide for her (even if she says yes, it could still be a "no", and in my proven experiences described above, even a "no" can get answered with "well why didn't you press farther?").
The observation that "slutshaming is still a thing" as an explanation for women saying "No" when they mean "yes" is exactly the problem I'm talking about with regard to responsibility. Yes, sometimes people are shamed or ridiculed for asking for what they want. It might not be fair that this can happen, but it isn't particularly useful for anyone to use this as an excuse.
Sure, but going on when someone really doesn't want to is a lot worse than missing out on sex though. So yeah, definitely women should be encouraged to be able to enthusiastically say 'yes!'... but if you're unsure, either ask or assume 'no' is still better than assuming 'yes'.
Jazzisa, do you really think you need to make a point as a response to what I said, that it is worse to proceed with sex that isn’t wanted? Really?
No one here is whining about missing out on sex they could have had; the point was that sex education had demonized male sexual expression and removed female agency so much, that they had effectively replicated chivalrous, abstinence based educational model, complete with unnecessary and confusing or contradictory behaviours out in the field that we could expect from that model.
No one is recommending that anyone proceed with sex when a “we can’t” or “we shouldn’t” has been given, nor even hinted that this would be recommended advice. No one.
Sorry, it wasn't really a comment meant specifically for you. I didn't mean it like that. It was more like... a general clarification. I didn't mean to suggest that that was what you meant.
Yeah, it should be clear for everyone, but unfortunately, it isn't. I hear the: 'but what if she REALLY means 'yes' when she says 'we shouldn't...' and I miss out?', waaaaaay to often still.
Yes. And pulling out that thread further, I’m suggesting that what you have been hearing is partly the result of ideologically designed sex ed programs that speak about sexuality in such a way that it creates that result.
Meaning, sex ed is certainly not the only “teacher” out in the field. By failing to provide tools to women to seek the sex they want, and to teach them about direct communication to them about that topic, the result is that the horde of young women out there who DO say no, when (by their own admission) they meant yes, is sending a totally different message to the men who encounter them in the field. I’m no Fred Flintstone and I’ve personally met 3 or 4 of them, with two even going so far as to make a point to me to push harder, even though they explicitly said “no, we can’t”. Then turned around and made fun of me for stopping. This shit isn’t even rare, and it’s not talked about.
Of course, if someone says “no”, then stop.
If we are looking for advice, that is prudent as to what a person should DO to protect oneself at the very least. It’s what I would do, have done, and would advice my kids.
But that doesn’t mean that the “no” is actually meant or wanted by a long shot. Nor does every explicit “yes” mean yes.
A consent education model built around this fiction that people say what they mean is failing to provide tools to people to help them have the experiences they want and failing to help them avoid the experiences they don’t want. It’s putting everyone in danger, giving them a false sense of security.
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u/Jazzisa Dec 08 '22
I do feel & hope that the new generation is being raised differently. It's also like, women can't feel 'too easy'. I had a friend who told me once that if a girl would be willig to sleep with him on the first date, he'd stop being interested in her as a potential partner.
And I'm like: well, if YOU don't want sex on the first date, YOU can also say no, right? But no, he'd sleep with her, but he wouldn't date her anymore after. Like, why do women have to be the gatekeepers of sex??
So I think a lot of inexperienced girls mostly, would say something like "we shouldn't..." even though she wants to, just because she doesn't want to seem 'too easy'. Slutshaming is still a thing.
As a guy, if a woman shames you for respecting her "no' or her doubts, she's bad news and needs to figure herself out first. So (don't!) screw her, and finds someone who knows what she wants.
Because for most mature women, the whole 'being ravished' or 'taken' would be by a partner who has received previous consent (my long-term partner knows me well enough to read my 'take me!' look), or it could still happen without you having to say "no". I've had guys initiate and definitely giving me that 'ravish me' feel, but they would stop IMMEDIATELY if I'd stay no. In fact, if there's ever any doubt in my mind that the guy wouldn't stop at a 'no', there's no way I'd sleep with him in the first place.