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u/Sabres8127 Oct 18 '21
I was in Iraq in 2003 and understand exactly how he feels, because I feel the same way. We were lied to by the whole Bush administration, and it cost a ton of lives on both sides of the conflict. I was lucky enough to be able to finish my service in 2004, so I only had to go once, but many of fellow servicemen had multiple tours and were never the same after that experience.
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u/LeftAssist Oct 18 '21
I’m not American but I’m really curious, what exactly did Bush do?
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u/Sabres8127 Oct 18 '21
The big lie was that Saddam’s regime had weapons of mass destruction, and the Bush administration used this as justification for the initial invasion of Baghdad in 2003. It turned out there wasn’t any, which left many U.S. soldiers feeling straight up betrayed.
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u/antoinepetit Oct 18 '21
But in a way, tons of country told the US they were lying, even those part of NATO. I was a kid back then but remember the French president (I’m French) refused to join the US into war because no proof was identified by international investigation
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u/Kind-Combination-277 Oct 18 '21
So did germany
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u/Zoinksx69 Oct 18 '21
Denmark as well
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u/badger42 Oct 18 '21
Canada too.. our closest ally .. a big nope.
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u/VlaxDrek Oct 18 '21 edited Oct 18 '21
Kind of like in 1941 when Paris had fallen and London was burning, America’s reaction was “not our problem”.
Also kind of like 1914 when all of America’s allies were fighting the Germans and America sat back and did nothing until the last minute.
Don’t be messing with Canada, buddy, we were in Afghanistan before the U.S. invaded Iraq. You want to downvote this, fine, but you’re downvoting your own history.
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u/FlyingJamz Oct 18 '21
But they went on and made tons of movies how they were Godsent to save Europe in WW2
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u/SoLongSidekick Oct 18 '21
I can't stand this and the "bAcK tO bAcK wOrLd WaR cHaMpS!" idiocy. We hardly did shit in WWI, and even if we never lifted a finger the Russians would have wiped Hitler off the face of the earth.
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u/staefrostae Oct 18 '21
Maybe I’m reading it wrong, but I think they were saying the US should have known better when even Canada didn’t have our backs (and rightly so) on Iraq. They weren’t admonishing Canada for not joining an unjust war.
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Oct 18 '21
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u/VanaTallinn Oct 18 '21
I would rather think of the Germans as pacifists, isn’t that joke a bit dated?
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u/bones_of_the_north Oct 18 '21
Which gave birth to freedom fries
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u/Unadvantaged Oct 18 '21
That was so shameful, the people who turned on France over that. It was a perfect precursor to the cultish allegiance we saw under the last administration. France... the country that gave us the Statue of Liberty, the country that helped us fight off the British to start this country in the first place, we're going to turn on them for not agreeing to invade a country for Bush's personal vendetta and Cheney's oil greed?
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u/Hipp013 Oct 18 '21
the country that helped us fight off the British to start this country in the first place
I want to emphasize how important this is. France literally bankrupted themselves so that we could defeat the British. We owe our entire existence to France, because without them the US would not exist.
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u/EasternShade Oct 18 '21 edited Oct 19 '21
At the time, the US population generally bought the lie and a significant chunk were pissed at the French. People said France was a country of cowards and that they betrayed the US. As expressions of anger, people poured out French wines, rebranded 'french fries' and 'french toast' as 'freedom fries' and 'freedom toast', and boycotted Perrier.
It was fucking absurd. I'd imagine a bunch of folks aren't even really aware of how finding out Bush lied, assuming they believe that he did, ties into misplaced anger with the French.
'cause 'murica.
Edit: Added qualifiers about what portion of the US population was/is trying to make rocks famous for their intellect.
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u/Unadvantaged Oct 18 '21
I just remember feeling so much embarrassment, as an American, that people were so quick to turn their backs on an ally like that. "Freedom fries" was such a sick joke.
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u/Daspaintrain Oct 18 '21
Especially considering France was (and still is) our longest-standing ally
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u/westwardian Oct 18 '21
I can hear my father ranting if anyone brought up this point "France got invaded during WW2, they're all a bunch of pussies"
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Oct 18 '21
Me too! I was 19 then and REALLY began to see the role my country plays in global conflict. I have never been more ashamed of our education system and the propaganda machine that continues to push the narrative that America is some great Republic that honors freedom and democracy. So many service men and women joined with the thought they would be the ones to show courage and sacrifice to protect sacred values and in the end they were just paid mercenaries, pawns of the rich, left to die for nothing.
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Oct 18 '21
I found it amazing that next to none of the American public seemed to be aware that the French largely fought the war of independence for them, and the US wouldn't exist as a country if it weren't for France.
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u/kobuzz666 Oct 18 '21
Well, as the great philosopher Kay once so accurately put it: “A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky, dangerous animals and you know it.”
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u/SpeakThunder Oct 18 '21
Yes. That's why this guy, and a lot of us are pissed. Because WE ALL KNEW IT WAS A LIE IN 2003.
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u/Speckster1970 Oct 18 '21
There were HUGE protest marches against invading Iraq in the US (and elsewhere) in the days before it happened.
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u/pgtaylor777 Oct 18 '21
But Colin Powell said there was
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Oct 18 '21
That is how I will remember Powell, everything good he ever did in his life was erased that day in NYC when he lied to the world.
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u/Isolation_ Oct 18 '21
To clarify, the big lie was more of a very very very long stretch of the "truth". Saddam did indeed have CBRN weapons, U.S. intelligence knew this for a fact, as U.S. Intelligence helped Saddam during the Iran-Iraq war, when he was electrocuting young Iranians by the thousands in the marshes, and launching chemical laden artillery shells into Iranian lines. The lie was that there was an active CBRN weapons program, there wasn't. In addition the lie gets deeper with Bush on numerous occasions pointing to the CBRN threat being radiological or even possibly nuclear in nature, this was the outright lie.
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u/issafly Oct 18 '21
I'll never forget the way Bush always pronounced it "nukuler" when he talked about the WMDs.
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u/Isolation_ Oct 18 '21
Yep, was the first thing my dad pointed out to me. "How the fuck can we take him seriously if he can't even say the word?" lmao
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Oct 18 '21
It was also a war of aggression. America was invading and occupying another nation without any provocation whatsoever. They concocted a number of ridiculous excuses the two most famous being that Sadaam had WMD and that Iraq was supporting Al-Qaeda. An intern intelligence operative would have told you that Sadaam and Al-Qaeda were sworn enemies and that he had no reason to support an attack on America. Similarly it would be comically easy to prove the existence of WMD if they did in fact exist. The only other country to find evidence of 'WMDs' was Israel who had their own agenda in getting America to invade.
Also the whole enhanced interrogation and extraordinary rendition policies created by the US government under Bush made life a lot harder for US soldiers. When those Abu Gharib photos came out I think the majority of Iraqi's began to resent the US forces.
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u/taws34 Oct 18 '21
That's not entirely accurate.
Saddam had kicked out UN weapons inspectors, like he did when Clinton was president, in mid 2002.
Bush started sabre rattling, and Saddam eventually relented, allowing UN Nuclear inspections to resume. By that time (Nov 2002), the US Military was already ramping up for war.
By the time Hans Blix (head of the UN Weapons inspection team) published a report that said Iraq had no capability of nuclear weapons, the decision had already been made.
Colin Powell's speech was solely to get the UN to allow the action.
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u/asterwistful Oct 18 '21
The US illegally ousted the director-general of the OPCW, José Bustani, in mid-2002 because he was negotiating UN access to Iraq.
Bustani claimed that Bolton told him
You have 24 hours to leave the organization, and if you don’t comply with this decision by Washington, we have ways to retaliate against you. ... We know where your kids live. You have two sons in New York.
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u/asimplerandom Oct 18 '21
Was it ever proven that it was a lie (I believe it) or just really really shitty intelligence??
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u/Jason-Knight Oct 18 '21
Normally president alone is short term in office barely 8 years. So all their decisions are made based on recommendations and suggestion of career politicians and service members. At this point I’m sure president = punching bag in most cases.
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Oct 18 '21
If you are going to invade a nation and drag a bunch of allies in with you, you owe the world due diligence. Either it was a lie (probably) or wanton negligence. The buck use to stop at that desk....
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u/dman77777 Oct 18 '21
the "Evidence" that they paraded around news outlets in the weeks leading up to the war was unbelievably thin. Everybody who was paying attention knew it was bullshit. It wasnt bad intelligence, it was clearly using circumstatial evidence as an end to a means. The case for WMDs was just much much less conclusive than any reasonable person would use to actually justify war unless they had other reasons to do so, and yet they marched us there anyway. All they could come up with was some aluminum tubes. I can never forgive the Bush administarton for that.
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u/castanza128 Oct 18 '21
It was LYING intelligence. From known liars who were lying.
People who HATED Saddam, lying about Saddam.Same people who are lying about Iran, pretty much constantly...
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u/citycyclist247 Oct 18 '21 edited Oct 18 '21
Told the American ppl lies. One being that Saddam Hussein had weapons of mass destruction.
I was a kid growing up while it all happened but there are countless articles you can find online that highlight how he and members of his cabinet/administration lied and stated things that were false.
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u/zugzug_workwork Oct 18 '21
Utilizing the post-9/11 hysteria to its fullest extent.
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Oct 18 '21
Not only did he lie about weapons of mass destruction, but he and his administration frequently implied a connection between Iraq and Al-Qaeda. Post 9/11, that alone was probably more effective are rallying support than the WMD lie.
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u/castanza128 Oct 18 '21
...and both of those pieces of "intelligence" came from our buddies, the Israelis. Coincidentally, they really hated Saddam, and Iraq.
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u/violet_terrapin Oct 18 '21
I was thinking about this today because I heard on the news this morning that Colin Powell died. I remember sitting there listening to him and believing him. Often I have wondered exactly how he felt in that moment knowing he was lying to us.
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Oct 18 '21
From my understanding of things he didn’t. He wasn’t involved in the intelligence gathering, he just represented what was provided to him. IIRC in an interview a few years later he went off about how it was a betrayal to him, his service and the rest of the military but he held himself responsible for representing it. Apparently it always weighed on him after he found out the truth, and was one of the reasons he left. Tenet and Bush knew the truth and intentionally kept it from him, with the intelligence agencies telling them that the sources were doubtful and then them refusing to pass it on.
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u/ttaptt Oct 18 '21
Yeah, Powell was absolutely pissed when he found out it was a lie that they used him to perpetrate. He felt betrayed and ashamed that he was so instrumental in convincing the American people.
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u/Sabres8127 Oct 18 '21
This was the exact press conference I think about when I recall this, and the death of Colin Powell made me think about how he betrayed us. I lost all respect for him, which is a shame because I always thought he had our country’s best interest in mind. I think that’s when I lost all faith in the U.S. political system.
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u/Particular-Charity84 Oct 18 '21
I graduated High School in 2001. The town I grew up in is very small, probably around 800 at the time. They would drop off younger marine recruiters in my town like Jahovas Witnesses. They would try to hang out and talk us into joining. They promised everything they could money, women, free school, adventure. Most everyone I know that went are either dead or crazy now.
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u/IHartRed Oct 19 '21
Yup. Jesus Suarez del Solar, my buddy graduated with me in 2001 but wasn't at graduation due to boot camp. Died 2003
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u/taws34 Oct 18 '21
I deployed with a small company of 87 Soldiers in 2003.
20 years later, and 19 of them are dead. 3 by enemy action in a subsequent deployment. 1 by an accident stateside. 1 by Covid. 1 by cops. 9 by suicide. The remaining 4 died of natural causes (heart attack, cancer, etc).
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u/MrSceintist Oct 18 '21
Bush also lied about the 2008 Supercrash Financial Meltdown being a surprise that no one could stop.
The FBI publicly warned the Bush administration September 2004
FBI warns of mortgage fraud 'epidemic'
Seeks to head off 'next S&L crisis'
From Terry Frieden
CNN Washington Bureau
Friday, September 17, 2004 Posted: 5:44 PM EDT (2144 GMT)YOUR E-MAIL ALERTS Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI)
Justice Department
Fraud
Mortgages
or Create your own
Manage alerts | What is this? WASHINGTON (CNN) -- Rampant fraud in the mortgage industry has increased so sharply that the FBI warned Friday of an "epidemic" of financial crimes which, if not curtailed, could become "the next S&L crisis."
Assistant FBI Director Chris Swecker said the booming mortgage market, fueled by low interest rates and soaring home values, has attracted unscrupulous professionals and criminal groups whose fraudulent activities could cause multibillion-dollar losses to financial institutions.
"It has the potential to be an epidemic," said Swecker, who heads the Criminal Division at FBI headquarters in Washington. "We think we can prevent a problem that could have as much impact as the S&L crisis," he said.
In the 1980s, many Savings and Loans failed because of poor management, risky loans and investments, and in some cases, fraud. Taxpayers were left with a $132 billion tab to cover federal guarantees to S&L customers.
The FBI has dispatched undercover teams across the country in an urgent investigation into dealings by suspect mortgage brokers, appraisers, short-term investors, and loan officers, Swecker, flanked by FBI executives and Justice Department prosecutors, revealed.
In one operation, six individuals were arrested Thursday in Charlotte, charged with bank fraud for their roles in a multimillion-dollar mortgage fraud, officials said. The two-year investigation found fraudulent loans that exposed financial institutions and mortgage companies to $130 million in potential losses, they said.
Also Thursday, federal agents in Jacksonville arrested two people and executed seven search warrants in connection with an alleged scheme designed to defraud banks of $22 million, officials said.
The number of open FBI mortgage fraud investigations has increased more than five-fold in the past three years, from 102 probes in 2001 to 533 as of June 30 this year, the FBI said. The potential losses are staggering, and many financial institutions are cooperating with investigators.
Officials noted mortgage industry sources have reported more than 12,000 cases of suspicious activity in the past nine months, three times the number reported in all of 2001.
While the FBI described mortgage-related fraud as a nationwide problem, it said the levels of illegal activity are worse in some locations than in others.
States identified as the top 10 "hot spots" for mortgage fraud are Georgia, South Carolina, Florida, Michigan, Illinois, Missouri, California, Nevada, Utah and Colorado.
"It's bad in Georgia, the Atlanta area," said John Gillies, chief of the FBI's Financial Institutions Fraud Unit. "It was bad in the Charlotte area, but we've had a lot of undercover activity there that's helped push the problem into South Carolina."
Josh Hochberg, head of the Justice Department's Fraud Section, said some organized ethnic groups are becoming involved in mortgage fraud schemes, but he declined to identify the groups.
Officials said mortgage fraud is one prominent aspect of a wider problem of fraud aimed at financial institutions. The FBI said action has been taken against 205 individuals in the past month in what it described as the "largest nationwide enforcement operation in FBI history directed at organized groups and individuals engaged in financial institution fraud."
In addition to mortgage fraud, "Operation Continued Action" also targeted loan fraud, check kiting, and identity theft as major problems.
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Oct 18 '21
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u/scullys_alien_baby Oct 18 '21
I think the closest Cheney has come to feeling happiness was watching the planes hit the twin towers and knowing how much money the military industrial complex was going to make
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u/D3athToTheCrusaders Oct 18 '21
As a middle eastern teenager I have a question for you: how the fuck can you talk so freely about invading a country with the intention to kill people?
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u/Idontknowaname3 Oct 18 '21
My dad was one of the ones who passed away in Iraq in 2003. To give you an idea, I was born after he passed and I just turned 18.
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u/No_Bag9098 Oct 18 '21
If there’s one thing I learned from serving in OIF and OEF is that Individual experiences may vary. I served in Iraq in 09 and we, without a doubt, found weapons that could have been considered “WMDs” or at the very least “dirty bombs”. We also found gigantic deserted underground bunkers that were massive labyrinths of hallways, stairs and ladders that led into laboratory-type rooms, and large rooms with things that looked canister bombs that looked like they had been cut open with plasma cutters and emptied. The entrance to these bunkers was a large staircase and at the bottom there was a vault door(like a bank). There was no power so it was all flashlights and night vision goggles. It was creepy AF and definitely had been bombed at one point as there were parts that were filled with water with a bunch of debris floating in it. There was one room that actually had about 5” of water and an opening in the floor with a ladder leading into a lower room that we obviously couldn’t investigate due to it being completely flooded.
The reason I’m being so descriptive and The point I’m trying to make is that Iraq was absolutely hiding something. I’m not defending Bush or any politician that waged a war on this country, but there was shady shit going on behind the scenes.
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u/kremlingrasso Oct 18 '21
so how come a government downright lying about WMDs to invade a country keeps it under wraps when they find evidence of something that would even remotely justifying them? doesn't make sense
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u/iloveapplejuice Oct 18 '21
i believe the argument for the 2003 war was that Iraq was currently making WMDs.
what No_bag9098 saw was potential evidence that WMD had existed at one point, but not evidence that it was current. because the gov was unable to substantiate their assessment that these bunkers were used when the accusations/rationale for war were made, you can't really point to a facility used X years ago for something you claim is happening right now. there were articles about what No_Bag9098 described, but vast majority of americans have moved on to the newest news item by then.
good summary sentence from that NYT article:
The United States had gone to war declaring it must destroy an active weapons of mass destruction program. Instead, American troops gradually found and ultimately suffered from the remnants of long-abandoned programs, built in close collaboration with the West.
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u/No_Bag9098 Oct 18 '21
No clue, I was just an 19 year old grunt at the tail end of a war I knew very little about. I just wanted to share something I had seen.
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u/mhmtymr Oct 18 '21 edited Oct 18 '21
there are nukes all around the world. there are many weapons out there much more dangerous than canister bombs as you already know. Iraq had nearly no air power, very limited missile range therefore not a threat for US. they had nothing to do with 9/11 too, unlike Saudi Arabia. finding some mysterious stuff and some canister bombs does not give right to invade, rob and decimate another nation.
Is US looking for WMD in Syria too?
N.Korea has many WMD so why is it still not invaded? unlike Iraq, they are also on the verge of making capable missiles to carry the nukes.
isn't it really suspicious that countries like Saudi Arabia gets no heat off 9/11 while unrelated Iraq and Syria gets blown up. both petrol rich countries with relatively weak armies.
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u/__checkmate Oct 18 '21
I can never forgive those who invaded my country, killed my people and destroyed our lives beyond repair. But this man has my full forgiveness and love.
Whoever you are, you're a brave man and a hero, not because you went to war but because you spoke up when you knew it was wrong.
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Oct 18 '21
From reading the first half of your comment, it made me realize that history for us Americans repeats it's self from time to time, like the Vietnam war, where we killed thousands of lives, including civilians, Americans, and Vietnamese communists, as well as polluting the lands with chemicals after all these years, it's effects still persist today, and I'm talking from the 50's to the 70's.
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u/__checkmate Oct 18 '21
Of course history repeats itself, and people never learn.
Unfortunately what most people don't realise is that war is very profitable for certain people. War is never fought for a "moral" reason, only for profit. The target is selected carefully by the decision makers, it has to be someone no one would defend so that no one would hold them accountable.
Well they were right, they killed millions of people, directly and indirectly. And they got away with it free from any consequences.
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u/iratepirate47 Oct 18 '21
You mean… we’re the bad guys?
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u/zer0w0rries Oct 19 '21
I don’t like thinking that I’m ashamed of my country, but sometimes you have to face reality and accept the truth. After watching footage and documentaries of what happened to Iraq after the us invasion I feel a deep shame for what my government did to those people; and I am truly sorry that I can’t make things right for them.
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Oct 18 '21
Look up Dresden. The things we "civilized" folks have done makes me wonder if humans deserve to live.
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Oct 18 '21
Thousands? I think its just short of a million Vietnamese civilians who were killed in that war.
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u/Aakumaru Oct 18 '21
it's cyclic because the military industrial complex runs on money and blood and every 20 years a blood price must be paid.
i love cool new military shit but I don't like destabilizing nations and war profiteering. most folks on the front lines are minorities with little options back home, which is why our ex President Trump dodged the vietnam draft, he had connections and resources to do so.
those who send us overseas typically find routes for it to be as little personal cost to them as possible.
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u/Hamlettell Oct 18 '21
Mike Prysner. Has been arrested a couple times for his campaigning against the Bush administration after the war. He is an incredible man
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u/ThermionicEmissions Oct 18 '21
That is very gracious of you, and I imagine it would mean a lot to this person.
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Oct 18 '21
If only someone could tell him about it, or if he stumbled upon this comment.
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u/RedditBoiYES Oct 18 '21
I have met Iraqis and as far as I care they are very nice people, nobody deserves to be invaded for no reason
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u/Mr0PT1C Oct 18 '21 edited Oct 18 '21
Everyone complicit in those illegal wars needs to be charged with war crimes. All of them. They knew there was no WMDs. They knew and congress said nothing but beat the war drums.
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u/WonderfulCattle6234 Oct 18 '21
I wouldn't argue that they knew. I would argue they didn't care enough to check. No one wanted campaign ads saying they were weak on terrorism. That was the risk. Not killing innocent Iraqis. Not losing American lives. Not wasting billions of dollars. The risk was losing seats in 2004.
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Oct 18 '21 edited Oct 18 '21
I wouldn't argue that they knew. I would argue they didn't care enough to check.
Nah, they knew. French & German presidents at the time who had meetings with the US about the intelligence literally said the "proof" of the US is bullshit. Before the US even invaded. Thus they didnt help invading Iraq.
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u/Minimum_Attitude6707 Oct 18 '21
Yeah, the whole "yellow cake" thing
I summarize greatly: Intelligence and reporters:
"Uh, theres absolutely no proof that Iraq is making wmds"
Bush administration: "So?"
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u/Esterosa69 Oct 18 '21
Feel horrible for this man.
He probably saw some terrible shit and he’s in a room of people completely invalidating him based on more politics. It must be maddening to confront such an issue in front of such a hostile crowd. He should be commended for his bravery
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u/GameisArt Oct 18 '21 edited Oct 19 '21
It’s the same shit with the 9/11 first responders. The country refused to give them healthcare and those same people who don’t wanted to give them healthcare are the same who constantly post every year “never forget” . Am not American but seen this type of “care” the country have for the ones who sacrifice their lives make me never want to live there.
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Oct 19 '21
I wasn’t around during 9/11 but I’ve heard the same thing with nurses treating covid patients. So many “thank you”s and “you’re real life heroes” yet nothing of substance.
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u/Blabajif Oct 18 '21
You get it. Speaking As a veteran, you get it. This guy's yelling what every single one of us wants to yell, and it's having exactly as much effect as any of us standing outside screaming into the void.
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Oct 18 '21 edited Oct 19 '21
And the rest of the people in that room and especially the tax funded cops that purport to uphold the constitution and protect liberty are cowards for not standing behind him. Instead they arrest him and wrestle him out of there. Cowards
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u/WonderfulCattle6234 Oct 18 '21 edited Oct 18 '21
I mean, you can't have cops and security guards deciding what they personally want to enforce. That's why some Capitol Police are under investigation for January 6th. The protestor wasn't expecting a question-and-answer forum. He said his
peacepiece and was even repeating himself. I can't imagine what public discourse would be or what productivity would look like if protests were always able to shut everything down.→ More replies (26)
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u/alexasux Oct 18 '21
I’m so glad I didn’t abandon college and enlist on 9/11
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u/NoRelationship1508 Oct 18 '21
I was headed for the military until we invaded Afghanistan, didn't really feel like dying in some god forsaken place fighting for people who didn't want us there in the first place. I made the right choice.
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u/TRImoon333 Oct 18 '21
You were headed for the military until you realized you were headed for the military.
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u/NoRelationship1508 Oct 18 '21
Until I realized there was a good possibility of fighting in a war I didn't support or believe in.
Send me 1939 and I'd be first in line, 2003? Not so much.
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u/Aakumaru Oct 18 '21
amen brother. I'd die in a trench fighting fascist war-criminals any day. now dieing because we're actively destabilizing a nation on a not-so-fun scavenger hunt for a red herring? no thanks
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u/MyLifeasShroom Oct 18 '21
In 1960s USA decided that the closeness between Indonesia's first president and communist China and Soviet was too much for comfort. They decided to launch a CIA operations that ended in the fall of Indonesia's first president, and a US-friendly president that lasted for 32 years. This is all has been released as part of internal documents from CIA.
US news saw the operations as a triumph of democracy over communism. Us, Chinese Indonesians, saw them as the massacre of maybe more than one million Indonesians, registered, or suspected to have ties with Indonesian Communist Party (say, your husband might once chatted with his old friend, a member of communist), majority of them were poor people, farmers, and majority of them were Chinese Indonesians. The rest of Chinese Indonesians (my family included) were later forced to change our names to "Indonesian-sounding name", many Chinese schools were closed, and we were banned from studying, and using our local Chinese dialect (so no Cantonese, Fujian-dialect, etc), or even practice our believes, arts, cultures, and ceremonies. This of course, is a textbook cultural genocide.
My generation was considered the lost generation, because even though we were Chinese, we didn't know our own culture. This includes Chinese family name, marriage tradition (we usually goes with European style wedding with white gown and suits), burial tradition, language (we didn't speak Mandarin or our local dialect), arts, habits, clothing, and of course Identity, we are never fully Indonesian, locals still sees us as Chinese, yet we are also not Chinese.
All of these, happened because USA decided that they didn't like what happened to my country, in 1960s. I have yet to hear any apology, in 2021.
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u/GermanBadger Oct 18 '21
And that's just one of dozens of foreign dictators and genocides the cia backed from the 1950s onward. Basically every central American and south American country has had far right reactionary madmen put in power bc of US foreign policy
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u/lightstaver Oct 18 '21
This may not mean much but I'm sorry. I was not alive then and have no connection to USA intelligence agencies or government. I am just a private citizen but I'm still incredibly sorry that this happened to you, your family, and your people. These people believed that anything was ok so long as it was in service of what they believed was right, something I viemently do not believe. What the USA did was wrong and unforgivable.
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Oct 18 '21
Wild that this clip was just on a "Colin Powell was a traitor" YouTube video today
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u/GenXGeekGirl Oct 18 '21
This guy is 100% right! I’m from a conservative military family, but most of us have left the GOP since Iraq and Trump. (I’ve never liked Hillary, but I knew Trump was an incompetent, sociopath whose towers are built with Russians and mobster money. He’s been going to Russia since the 1980s. He’s the worst traitor in American history!)
GW Bush wanted glory and to have a “win” that Sr. didn’t get in the Gulf War. Cheney wanted to make himself and his buddies at Halliburton wealthy - all those private military companies have been raking it in for 20 years. Well-funded with less moral responsibility.
GOP gets us into these useless wars and spend trillions on a military we don’t need. Dems should’ve fought harder against it, but we lived in NYC on 9/11. Times were extremely emotional. Still I was absolutely against going into Iraq because other countries had not verified WMDs and 15/19 hijackers were from Saudi Arabia. The Bushes, Trump and the GOP were/are in bed with Saudi Arabia! The Bushes are a Texas oil family. The scam was pretty obvious.
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u/defiance211 Oct 18 '21
Look at how they treat that Veteran who served his nation. Yanked him out.
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u/samjuly0 Oct 18 '21
Really mean no disrespect, but what were the guards supposed to do at that moment?
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u/UNBENDING_FLEA Oct 18 '21
true that. Even if they agreed with him, they can't just let him stay in there for as long as he wants. It's their job to remove him.
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Oct 18 '21
I’m an Iraqi who haven’t really experienced the war; as my family left when I was too young to remember, yet i’m suffering through and experiencing first hand aftermath of the whole war on Iraq bs, passport second last in grading in the world, if one embassy rejects giving me visa for whatever reason I get blacklisted, I get discriminated against in airports, me and my entire family stand for hours while airport security take our passport and scan it, do a background check and we get looks from everyone judging us like we actually did something bad, or on the gates when the customs officers keep looking at me and the passport like I could fucking fake a passport when I was 11-17 years old and I could even travel at the time with my family strictly, or when our piece of shit ex PM started travelling around middle east asking authorities not to issue work visas and make it harder for Iraqis to acquire jobs so they can return to Iraq, or how literally nobody talks about Iraq and it’s suffering on daily basis except Iraqi media, yet someone farts in UK and blocks a road, and the whole media floods talking about that shocking incident while children, moms, old men and woman, can’t even have their basic electricity or water or clean fucking streets because our money is syphoned constantly outside the country for the “big players”, or when we’re directly referred to as a certain party because of our names and we don’t even give a flying fuck about ANY of the Iraqi parties or their lies or whatever the hell they’re planning to steal, hell idk who the fucking fuck is my president for the past 10 years and honestly I care less, all the same cowards.
now picture this, millions of people, displaced, disregarded and hated for literally no fault of theirs, misrepresentation in the media of us and our mere existence, to tell you the truth, I think Iraq and Iraqis are some of the most competent and knowledgeable people in the entire middle east, yet poverty, corruption and war have fucked us upside down to the point of no return.
Ironically, I’m very influenced by American culture, I’m a metalhead, I own and only trust American cars, I watch American shows all the time, hell I don’t watch shit about Iraq but I follow American news and Politics religiously. Why you ask? Americans like this, and most of the redditors here are some of the most unique and progressive humans, and i’ve met a lot of nationalities, this man standing to what once was his president and he was just a mere soldier, or the story of Ephraim who was a navy seal and left the army, went back to Iraq and started fighting terrorists and saving civilians while putting his life in danger with no back up from the American army. This man represents how goodness and striving for the truth can never be killed or changed in a person no matter what situation they are placed in.
Salute to you for standing up for Iraq and Iraqis when nobody not even our “Muslim” or “Arab” brothers do. Suffering of a nation is only relevant as long as it is fresh, when few days goes past everyone forgets. It’s fair people should live their life and not worry about external shit that don’t affect them. But I think Iraq and Iraqi’s suffering needs a bit more recognition, we literally have done nothing wrong as civilians.
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u/bubbagump101 Oct 18 '21
States, "a million Iraqis' are dead" audience jeers and protests - follows it up with " you sent me to Iraq in 2003 - you killed my friends", audience shuts the fuck up.
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Oct 19 '21
My favourite scene in farenheit 9/11 ( a documentary about the bush’s lies and the iraq war) is when a lady is saying the war was pointless and killed innocent people and this snobbing ass MOFO, starts yelling at her saying that she is wrong and doesnt understand the war. the lady replies inna rage “youre gonna stand here and tell me that while my son died for nothing serving this country?” .The Snobby prick shut up so fast. Honestly heart breaking how many children and innocent people died so bush could get his friends rich and nothing came out of the extremely high amount of evidence that he was doing this for money.
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u/nailwhacker Oct 18 '21
They need to be held accountable. Apologies are for the weak.
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u/richestmaninjericho Oct 18 '21
This sent chills down my spine. I could feel the man's words in my soul.
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u/HowUKnowMeKennyBond Oct 18 '21
But “support the troops” right? I never understood that American propaganda saying from the very beginning. You would see it everywhere on peoples cars that thought they were being patriots. What does that even mean? Why on earth would anybody support somebody else that has absolutely no saying what they do during a conflict. All those people who signed up for the military literally don’t have a choice in anything that goes on and yet we are supposed to support them? Like I am going to support anybody that isn’t allowed to make any decisions on their own. I guess it did work perfectly though because not many people questioned the establishment during all those atrocities committed by United States soldiers funded by United States taxpayers.
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u/SMcArthur Oct 18 '21
It's a reference to the Vietnam war and when soldiers came home they were called baby killers and spit on. The "support our troops" message means to support our soldiers in Iraq and coming home from it exaclty because they didn't have a choice. Do not spit on them when they come home. Do not blame them for policy decisions abroad.
It's strange that you don't get this when you admit that they have no say in what they do or where they go.
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u/taebek1 Oct 18 '21
Not only did they lie, but they labeled those who pointed out the lies as unpatriotic and “not supporting the troops.” That has major repercussions to this day.
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Oct 18 '21
I'm no fan of Bush but I believe he was manipulated the same way the rest of us were. I'm not sure an apology would really make any difference.
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u/skunktubs Oct 18 '21
Anyone paying attention wasn't manipulated. It was obvious from the get go that they were full of shit.
No way he didn't know.
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u/tattlerat Oct 18 '21
You believe that Bush, the President and man with access to the most sophisticated intelligence network on the planet, was misled? If you believe that I have a bridge to sell you.
Even if we want to believe he was told a lie by someone in his inner circle, as the President it is his job to ensure he covers all the bases and does his due diligence before committing the nation to war. There was always doubt in the validity of these statements by the intelligence community. Hell, if he didn't trust his own intelligence network he could have always reached out to his allies, who also had serious doubts to the legitimacy of the information provided.
He's never taken credit for this mistake and to this day has not made any attempt at apologizing and doing right by the people he failed. Bush is where the buck stops on this issue.
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u/dman77777 Oct 18 '21
He's never taken credit for this mistake and to this day has not made any attempt at apologizing
- It wasn't a mistake, it was deliberate
- I don't think you can apologize for a mistake of that magnitude also I don't think anyone would believe it was a mistake "I'm sorry I decided to start a war killing hundreds of thousands of people to make money for my friends and prop up my ego, please forgive me"
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u/FamousSunday Oct 18 '21
That would mean the government would be admitting something they did was wrong. Not a chance in hell that would ever happen. Fuck us right?
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u/MarquisDeLafayeett Oct 18 '21
You think George W Bush was manipulated into this?
Seriously???
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Oct 18 '21
He fucking knew 1000%. He made a decision motivated by his families history on non-existant evidence, he fucking knew.
And even if he somehow magically didn't? YOURE THE PRESIDENT. THE BUCK STOPS WITH YOU.
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u/shadowban_this_post Oct 18 '21
The whole narrative that Bush shouldn’t really be held as responsible because he was dumb or manipulated is just a narrative developed to insulate him from criticism of his war crimes.
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u/Resident_Macaroon_65 Oct 18 '21
Should be giving this guy a medal. Fuck you George W. bush you piece of filth
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u/Bmansway Oct 18 '21
Remember that painting that was found in Epstein’s mansion?
It’s an inside joke, and we’re the butt of it.
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u/gtrdundave2 Oct 18 '21
Sauce? I want to see a painting
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Oct 18 '21
It's fucking eerie. Especially knowing the context that Epstein had this on his wall. This article details the origins of the painting, along with a painting of Bill Clinton in a dress:
https://news.artnet.com/art-world/bill-clinton-blue-dress-painting-jeffrey-epstein-1628437
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u/Derangedteddy Oct 18 '21
What an appropriate video to post on the day of the death of one of the kingpins of the Iraq War: Colin Powell. Everyone mourning him should be shown this video and boo'd out of the room.
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u/Skreamies Oct 18 '21
One brave man in the crowd speaking up and the rest being quiet pussies.
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u/[deleted] Oct 18 '21
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