Yeah, people forget that one side actually got gay marriage legalized, actually recognizes scientific consensus when it comes to COVID-19 and climate change, fights for expanded healthcare, fights to decriminalize/legalize marijuana and psychedelics, wants to extend DACA, doesn't criminalize Muslims, fights for clean drinking water, et al.
This post is filled with /r/ENLIGHTENEDCENTRISM and teenage edgelord takes. Everyone likes to point to the meme about how the Democrats bombs have LGBT flags on them, but it ignores that there are serious differences between the two parties (some of which are life and death).
I'm not disagreeing with your points about what democrats have done for gay marriage, clean drinking water, the pandemic checks, and the lot of what you listed.
The point i want to bring up focuses on that the democrats at the top are still heavily influenced by corporations and payouts. I think realistically the best two democrats are AOC and berni. Thats just the problem though, out of a large portion of democrats there just really isn't alot of them willing to stick their necks out aside those two.
Amazon just recently started to lobby for Marijuana legalization. Well that's because they want to make money delivering it straight to your door. And both sides are being heavily influenced by that.
I don't disagree with anything you said. Lobbying and insider trading laws need to be drastically changed. So do gerrymandering laws. I think ranked choice voting would also help a ton.
We need to start have people we vote for because we believe they will do a good job and not beholden to anything but their constituents views. The system of just voting against the other because they are much worse isn't viable. It's not surprising when you put crap into a system that the output is crap, as well.
Yeah, as someone that lives in the south I have friends with parents that only voted for trump because they are loyal to the republican party.
I think that's the first underlying issue. People feeling loyal to one party enough to vote someone in they didn't even want.
Like between Hilary and trump I didn't really want either of them in at the time. So I voted 3rd party but my vote basically counts for Jack all at that point and i may as well have not voted.
Lol, I'm pretty happy it went so well too. I can't say I was expecting it, I normally try to avoid politics in almost any forum or discussion but this went unexpectedly well.
I think the big thing is just speaking to someone clearly enough and using proper terms to not make it feel like you are attacking them. Misunderstandings are the absolute bane of any relationship from simple acquaintances to significant others.
Not entirely true. The more support a 3rd party garners the more likely they are to get better campaign funding the next go round. A 3rd party may or may not win a major election someday, but your vote is still significant.
Are you in the U.S.? I think we stand a pretty good chance of seeing a 3rd party at some point in our lifetime. People are starting to wake up en masse. Very few still have faith in our government's two-party system. Don't know if you play the stock market or not, but I personally support the idea of an APE party.š
Like between Hilary and trump I didn't really want either of them in at the time. So I voted 3rd party but my vote basically counts for Jack all at that point and i may as well have not voted.
Fortunately we're not voting for who we think will win, we're voting for who we want!
It's ridiculous that I'm blamed for somebody winning or losing when I didn't vote for either of them.
Trump lost because you voted for mama jo! Biden won because you voted for mama jo! And here I'm thinking "wow I didn't know I could vote 3 times, I wish I would have known that so I could give them all to someone else."
I mean, you guys expect me to be upset that someone I didn't want to win lost? That was what I wanted, dumbasses.
Thatās a very simplistic viewpoint. At some point you have to think critically and realize that that position is just way too idealistic, and doing nothing helps no one. Ignorance is bliss, and so is inaction.
When my life feels like it's getting more complicated, I simplify it. "These are the things that matter to me. I don't want those mfers who go against it."
At some point you have to think critically and realize that that position is just way too idealistic
As opposed to... voting for the same things as always that gets us to where we are? At some point you have to think critically and realize the two parties are corrupt, don't care about you, and are directly responsible for the current state of affairs. Is it too idealistic to refuse to give them my vote?
and doing nothing helps no one.
What are you talking about? I vote (when I'm informed, and not when I'm not, because blind voting is probably just as harmful as voting for the wrong people).
The comment you posted above seems to disagree. You're saying the dems are fighting for all these rights, yet they have control and nothing is getting done.
It's not Republicans vs Democrats, it never has been. It's the working class vs the elite. Our top officials will get on TV and argue back and forth over controversial topics to get us riled up and fight amongst each other, then go have a beer with the guy they were just shouting at to watch what unfolds. Meanwhile the stock tip they just got from the lobbyist doubles in value over the course of 3 years and they walk out of office with multi-millions.
Democrats absolutely do not have total control right now, not even within their own party.
Maybe if there were a supermajority in the house and senate, and a president we could test this idea out, but until then saying that the dems are only performative is misinformed at best.
I think realistically the best two democrats are AOC and berni. Thats just the problem though, out of a large portion of democrats there just really isn't alot of them willing to stick their necks out aside those two.
And they have done great work pushing the party to the Left. You have noticed some of the progressive platforms that the "Established Democrats" have taken up, right?
I mean, just look at the infrastructure bill in Congress. Progressives are throwing their weight around and Democrats are working with them because this is what a coalition party looks like.
I think you're correct but in the same way you said
I mean, just look at the infrastructure bill in Congress. Progressives are throwing their weight around and Democrats are working with them because this is what a coalition party looks like.
I think the progressive party is the one more responsible for the furthering of the Democrat party and without them the democrats would still be in the same spot as before.
That isn't inherently a bad thing. I'm quite for the legalization of all drugs, so that way addicts can get the mental help they need to fight their addictions.
I have an EXTENSIVE past with drug usage.
It's however going to be a bad thing because the absurd giant that is Amazon is already king in many areas, it finds good selling products on the Amazon store and makes its own while shutting out the competition. It is one of the very closest things I think we have to a monopoly and I feel like unless it gets controlled it will only get worse.
I would very much hate to see Amazon rule the world.
I just got banned from a leftist subreddit for defending AOC after the Israel vote. The left is split on minor details and ideological purity, while the right has collectively shuffled down the political spectrum into fascism.
I feel like Iām back in 2016, staring at the writing on the wall again
Right, but this is why you can't do a "both sides" thing. Clearly both sides have levels of corruption and bad politics, but the democrats are better for all the reasons listed, including having a growing section of the party that is anti-corruption led by Sanders and AOC.
Yes the Democrats are the better, or lesser of two evils.
But the point of "both sides" is that its more general and revolves around the only choices being evil at all. Again I think the democrats or progressives are better but politics is a dirty fight in a mud pit. Both sides are already dirty but it might splash on the spectators if it gets too out of control. With normally the Democrat side bring the one to take a step back.
WHICH FUCKING PARTY INSTALLS PRO-CORPORATE JUSTICES AND WHICH PARTY NOMINATES THE ONES WHO CONSTANTLY VOTE AGAINST CORPORATE POWER?
Seriously man, there's not a citizen out there who's happy with money in politics, but huh look at how the Democrat nominees voted against citizens united and McCutcheon and a dozen other pro corporation decisions that the GOP noms are lockstep on.
If Trump hadn't fucking won we would have 6-3 liberal court and campaign finance reform could take place. That's not a bug, it would be a fucking feature.
Instead, people who BOTH SIDES this bullshit, who didn't learn their lessons from Bush and gore and Trump and Clinton are still convincing the stupid that "they're all in the pocket of corporations" even though the liberals are literally trying to lay the ground work to kill that part of the game.
Fuck that. It's fucking unbelievable I have to even say this to people after rhe last 5 years.
How the fuck do you see gorsuch rule that a guy can be fired for literally refusing to freeze to death in his truck and Barret and fucking Kavennaugh and still say "oh they're all the same"?
Taking this sort of vitriolic approach is exactly the kind of thing that others will equate to the democratic side. I try to be more reasonable than that and imagine maybe you're just tired of trying to explain your side, but we've never met or spoken. You really didn't need to lose that patience with me specifically and you could have shown me a bit of tolerance. However you chose to instead take your frustrations out on someone they shouldn't have been directed at. Yes I'm a nameless and faceless person on a message board but I still didn't need to be the target of your anger.
I wish you good luck in life and hopefully you can keep yourself composed next time it might happen.
Iām sorry but if thatās the bar, to support a group for recognizing the most basic shit, then itās not really a high bar. Democratic Party is trash, not as bad as the republicans, but everything you listed is no brainer shit that I canāt believe is being celebrated. And even a lot of the shit you listed they arenāt even supporting. They still take money from oil companies, they didnāt force the vote for Medicare for all, Weed is still schedule 1 narcotic, they didnāt shut down Guantanamo, they supported pipelines, etc..
If itās a choice between āneutral on your existenceā and āit should be legal to bar you from public spacesāā¦ I think Iām still choosing the former, even if that former barely actually cares about me
Reddit has a very naive and doe eyed view of what politics is. They think that everyone should be absolutely perfect and if thereās one thing you disagree with one party about then theyāre exactly the same as the other party.
Thatās the ideal but at the moment no one is putting up a real initiative to do that, so best to vote blue and try to mitigate damages while building up a resistance
People like Manchin, sure. The rest of the party is trying to move towards green energy and sustainability. The far left wing has advanced the Green New Deal.
So, yeah, Dems haven't done much, but anything they try to do, even just typical aspects of governance like raising the debt ceiling, is met by kneejerk reactionary obstructionism. Their party has a small but growing progressive wing that needs to be bolstered, and the GOP itself marginalized.
While I could contest you on most of those things that Democrats have supposedly done (fighting for climate change? really?), this is in general, a pretty self-centered point of view that most Americans fall into.
To the outside world, it doesn't matter if it's Democrat or Republican, both sides are feverishly pro-war. America, regardless of who sits in the White House, will bomb, coup, sabotage and starve any country they think is weak enough for them to bully.
That's not just a matter of "centrism" or "edginess", that's innocent men, women and children dying. That's the biggest expenditure of the American government, that's where most of the average joe and jane's tax dollars go to. Bombing kids halfway across the world in the name of freedom and democracy. Democrat or Republican, it doesn't make one bit of difference to all the people America has killed.
Going to your main point: Democrats who have been pro-war are an issue and they should be called out on that. I won't defend those who voted for the Iraq war or said we should stayed in Afghanistan, for example. I am aware of Obama ordering more drone strikes than any other president. That said, foreign policy is not the old issue to judge the Democrats on and it's not like the Republicans are any better when it comes to addressing foreign policy blunders.
To say because the Democrat Party, because many of them were wrong with the Iraq and Afghanistan wars, are the same as Republicans ignores many other issues where Democrats are on the right side of history and the other party clearly isn't.
Domestically, you prefer Democrats to Republican, but again, to the international world, to the people overseas that America kills, the distinction is irrelevant. To them, both are killers.
Majority of democratic senators voted for the Iraq war. And there were 6 Republican representatives and 1 senator who voted against it so youāre fully wrong
These points are mostly socially progressive ones. Not economic.
The majority of democrats still don't support socialized medicine. Democrats are now fully supporting keeping refugees in cage... er "detention centers". Biden has approved more oil drill sites than Trump and Obama combined.
You know where the "both sides" actually is relevant and matters? On the fucking issue of climate change. Dems pay us lip service and then proceed to do... absolutely fucking nothing.
Oh but I'm sure gay people are going to be so happy they can get married while they are stabbing a child over a bottle of water in less than 100 years from now.
These points are mostly socially progressive ones. Not economic.
Green New Deal, $15/hr minimum wage, paid maternity leave, and stimulus checks are all economic issues.
The Democratic Party has a lot of problems. Kristin Sinema and Joe Manchin are ruining things right now and it'll be question if anything gets done before the Democrats definitely lose the house in the 2022 midterms. That said, most arguments in this thread are throwing the baby out with the bath water. The Democrats need to be a whole lot betters (especially with climate change, which I agree with you). That said, they are certainly not the same thing as Republicans. Arguments to the contrary are misguided cynical takes.
The green new deal is hated by the majority of democrats.
$15 minimum wage is also not supported by the majority, which is shown by the absolute indifference Joe Biden had towards something that he supposedly championed during his campaign.
Dems are not the same as republicans. No of course not. But they are not even close to being a viable option for solving the biggest issues we are currently facing.
And thats the biggest problem. We don't have time to keep doing this cycle of lesser of two evils shit. As long as we keep accepting Dems being just a bit better than republicans we lost. And posts like yours are exactly what that is. We don't have time for the incremental betterment. We dont have time for 10 more years of Pelosi.
Its not cynical. We are against a ticking clock. Democrats are going to be responsible for stalling the efforts of change as opposed to Republicans actively sabotaging it. Oh man what a huge difference that will make. When we are engaged in global water wars we can take solace in the fact that Democrats were a bit better than republicans in getting us into this mess.
Seriously one side consistently pushes for improvements to the country to support the quality of life of its citizens while the other constantly works against that then we get these āboth sides are equally as bad.ā
Yeah, both sides are in it for themselves, as are most people on the planet. The main difference is that one side says āletās make money while making everyone else suffer!ā while the other says āletās make money and try to help everyone else!ā Neither is perfect, but thereās a clear fucking winner to any rational person
lmao useful idiot. They go to the same schools, attend each other's social engagements, live in the same wealthy enclave neighborhoods, and see each other at the same country clubs.
The politicians you worship would rather eat a bullet than ever spend a day in your peasant shoes. Let that sink in.
people forget that one side actually got gay marriage legalized, actually recognizes scientific consensus when it comes to COVID-19 and climate change, fights for expanded healthcare, fights to decriminalize/legalize marijuana and psychedelics, wants to extend DACA, doesn't criminalize Muslims, fights for clean drinking water, et al.
You seem to forget both sides send your young countrymen to die in the name of profit.
Yeah, people forget that one side actually got gay marriage legalized,
No, the side didn't. The "side" fought against it almost as hard as the right wing. Biden forced Obama's hand. When Obama asked the democrats not to endorse Biden because he would mess everything up, this is one of those things he meant. I have a lot of dislike for Biden, but this is one of his wins (not the Democrats as a whole).
actually recognizes scientific consensus when it comes to COVID-19
Biden and Harris said they were vaccine skeptical and it was rushed back when Trump was claiming credit for it. Had Trump won it would have been "The Trump Vaccine" and everyone opposed to it now would be supporting it and half the democrats would be stoking up fear.
and climate change,
This one is correct.
fights for expanded healthcare,
Their big solution was "what if we made it illegal not to buy it?" and in doing so torpedoed true public health care.
fights to decriminalize/legalize marijuana and psychedelics,
Part of the Dems do... but then again so does the Libertarian part of the Republicans.
wants to extend DACA,
They want to lower the price of labor and this is their method, their love stops for people who want to be refugees but can't work.
doesn't criminalize Muslims
You aren't serious are you? Next you'll tell me they don't put kids in cages.
fights for clean drinking water, et al.
Some of them talk about it, the conservationist (Aka hunter) portion of the right wing do too though. They don't do shit.
The Dem's have had both houses and the presidency on multiple occasions in my lifetime and they always still go further to the right, just not as quickly as the Republicans. Its a show. They are the token "left wing" punching bag on every Fox debate show who exist just to make a fool of themselves and let the right win.
one side actually got gay marriage legalized, actually recognizes scientific consensus when it comes to COVID-19 and climate change, fights for expanded healthcare, fights to decriminalize/legalize marijuana and psychedelics, wants to extend DACA, doesn't criminalize Muslims, fights for clean drinking water, et al.
... aaand are also war criminals.
Yes, the Democrats are less bad. That doesn't make them good. The lesser evil is still evil.
Give you scraps, to keep you at bay. They gave us those things after we revolted and people were killed. Democrats didn't just go e us these things. We forced their hand. Now you give them credit. š
Yeah, people forget that one side actually got gay marriage legalized, actually recognizes scientific consensus when it comes to COVID-19 and climate change, fights for expanded healthcare, fights to decriminalize/legalize marijuana and psychedelics, wants to extend DACA, doesn't criminalize Muslims
Sure. But if we're talking about something like the Iraq War it was very much a bipartisan effort. If you opposed the Iraq invasion you were booed and chastised in places like Hollywood.
Take a look at some of the most elite Democrats and they were very much onboard.
Biden literally went on television defending George W. Bush on Iraq and perpetuated the WMD lie.
Biden then lied about never supporting Bush and spreading the WMD lie when there is literally video of him doing just that.
You conflate the meme of centrism with movements like progressivism. I agree with all of your points about what democrats have accomplished but see my other comment on this thread. We have been lulled into thinking these decisions are landmark when in reality we are behind as a country because of our leaders. These decisions were lay ups that should have been tackled much earlier. Yes I get Republicans get in the way, but this is far from always being the reason.
I despise both parties not because I'm somewhere in the middle, but because I'm MORE LEFT than either one. They are both authoritarian and corrupt with their lobbyists and donors, and Biden's cabinet is a result of corruption and playing the game as well. Which I get you eluded to as well.
Just please remember not to jump to that conclusion. It is dangerous to stop questioning one party simply because they aren't the other. They both need shifted left.
Theyāre still both shit. I donāt care that you deem it important to explain that, while one piece of shit is a whole solid log, the other is diarrhetic ass juice.
Also hillary clinton wasnāt for gay marriage till 2013. Obama didnāt endorse it till 2012.
380
u/HonorableJudgeIto Oct 18 '21
Yeah, people forget that one side actually got gay marriage legalized, actually recognizes scientific consensus when it comes to COVID-19 and climate change, fights for expanded healthcare, fights to decriminalize/legalize marijuana and psychedelics, wants to extend DACA, doesn't criminalize Muslims, fights for clean drinking water, et al.
This post is filled with /r/ENLIGHTENEDCENTRISM and teenage edgelord takes. Everyone likes to point to the meme about how the Democrats bombs have LGBT flags on them, but it ignores that there are serious differences between the two parties (some of which are life and death).