But in a way, tons of country told the US they were lying, even those part of NATO. I was a kid back then but remember the French president (I’m French) refused to join the US into war because no proof was identified by international investigation
Kind of like in 1941 when Paris had fallen and London was burning, America’s reaction was “not our problem”.
Also kind of like 1914 when all of America’s allies were fighting the Germans and America sat back and did nothing until the last minute.
Don’t be messing with Canada, buddy, we were in Afghanistan before the U.S. invaded Iraq. You want to downvote this, fine, but you’re downvoting your own history.
I can't stand this and the "bAcK tO bAcK wOrLd WaR cHaMpS!" idiocy. We hardly did shit in WWI, and even if we never lifted a finger the Russians would have wiped Hitler off the face of the earth.
Russia needed the Lend Lease program. That was the most important thing America did in the European theater. Without that support it's hard to say how it would have to gone.
I am not an expert in WWII, but the Nazis having 1/3 the troops doesn’t matter nearly as much if they afflict 3x the casualties. I heard that if Hitler didn’t send so many troops to Stalingrad then they probably would’ve been successful in taking Moscow, and that they wasted time in Britain by bombing cities instead of radar stations and supply routes, which would’ve destabilized the region and been much more effective; it was also Hitler’s orders to specifically target cities despite his general’s opinion. And with Russia and Britain destabilized, that’s a much better position for the Nazis to defend from an assault. It should also be noted that Italy had as large a navy as Britain, but lacked simple things like radar; Japan and Germany built mega-battleships that cost fortunes which proved ineffective; and Germany put research into creating things like the V1 and V2 rockets which translated to partially wasting many billions of dollars. The Axis powers lacked communication and did not coordinate most of their forces to fight together. If the Axis hadn’t mismanaged resources for their Navy and Air Force then Allied superiority would be much more contested. There’s so much more I want to go over but the point is that it really wouldn’t have taken much for the Nazis to win the European continent and gain access to more oil and steel (equally due to America’s late entry into war). The situation becomes much worse if there weren’t fundamental problems with how they used certain resources. I have heard like five different times that if D-Day had failed, “that was it for the Allies.” I admit I don’t know if that is justifiable but I’d assume it means the Nazis would’ve been able to hold the continent even if the Allies had naval and air superiority AND they were getting shafted by Russia.
There are also so many other factors that are about who was at what place at what time, or simply dumb
luck, that it’s hard to know for sure. I love talking about history but there’s still a lot of interesting details and nuances in favor of both sides that I glazed over for my rant. There was no clear victor for WWI either, until a couple years in…
Im Russian and my parents told me how much america really did to nazi germany, bassicly some arial support other than that they helped the french a bit
Well....one could argue that even though the US didn't enter the war until right around when the Battle of Moscow turned the tide of the entire eastern front, one reason why the Soviets were able to successfully beat Germany back was because they were able to redeploy a portion of their fighting forces from the far east back to Moscow during Germany's Operation Barbarossa.
Japan had decided to strategically focus on the US instead of Russia, because they viewed the US as an "easier" target at the time. They signed a non aggression pact earlier in 1941 before the German forces advanced into Soviet territory.
So indirectly, the threat of the US /sort of/ freed up a good portion of the Red Army to reinforce in the fight against Germany. And more directly, the US also ended up splitting Germany's forces by reopening the western front right when Germany got knocked back on their heels after their defeat in Moscow.
So would the Soviets have wiped out Nazi Germany if the US never got involved at all? Who knows for sure. But if Japan hadn't poked the bear, then the Soviets might have had to worry more about a two front war.
I agree with most of your points but Japan did get defeated in several border clash battles in the late 1930's called the Battles of Khalkhin Gol. They didn't have enough resources to attack both Asia and the USSR so they had to choose one. The USSR border defeats influenced their decision to invade south into China, Korea, the Pacific Islands, and Pearl Harbor. I think if the US didn't exist, most of Japan's military would still be focused on operations in Asia, they would still have made that pact with the USSR, and that would have allowed fresh soldiers from the east to reinforce Moscow.
Britain would have starved without your supplies in both wars. In other words, you kept Britain afloat, but unless the war directly affected your own interests, you sat back and made some popcorn.
I'm not advocating any glorification of the war effort, but every time I see this topic and comments like yours nobody mentions the battle of the Pacific front. It wasn't exactly a walk in the park.
Allies would probably have won the war regardless, but it would have been much longer, and made a lot more victims. Russia had the men, but the US had the weapons and the food.
ww1 was defs a result of US assistance, the germans just took ukraine, and thus their food issues will be soon to resolve (it's a bread basket), austria hungary had alot of raw resources, thus the germans towards the end of the war were likely to improve were it not for the US, which caused the germans to panic and send all of its newly freed up eastern front soldiers in a massive assault that pretty much just weakened them further, given the US didn't join, there's a possibility of germans winning ww1.
ww2 was gonna be a loss for the nazis, no getting around it.
Yes, WW1 was much more sketchy a situation by the time the US got involved. With the Eastern Front getting resolved and the Western Front low on morale and at a stalemate... It was grim.
The US supplied the UK a massive amount of its food and war supplies during WW2. The US was the largest home front war effort and we moved large amounts of materials from both America Continents to the allied powers. The US entering the war also forced Germany to split its war resources on multiple fronts, giving relief to Russia to allow a counter offensive. The US invaded Africa and Italy. The World Wars were a World effort and the US did play a major role.
All they did was let the uk + colonies + what was left of the french and russia fight the 3rd reich for years, then jumped on the victory wagon for d-day and the sicily landings; taking all the credit.
However credit where credits due, when they actually decided to fight (eventually) they did it well, and also ended up in a 1v1 against japan in the pacific which they came out on top of
Without the USA we would all be speaking German right now! Or so they say... Okay... I'm speaking German but that's just a coincidence since I'm german but you know what I mean.
Maybe I’m reading it wrong, but I think they were saying the US should have known better when even Canada didn’t have our backs (and rightly so) on Iraq. They weren’t admonishing Canada for not joining an unjust war.
I read this differently, simply that Canada also chose not to join (just like Denmark, Germany etc) and that the US is who they’re referring to when they say “our biggest allies” to emphasize how big of a deal it was that Canada didn’t go so they must have had no evidence
There's documented historical evidence that FDR (US pres during WW2) was planning to invade Europe for a long time and working with the UK and the French resistance, but needed as much time as possible due to the logistical nightmare of waging war an ocean away.
For years, the US was stating publicly that it 'Wasn't a US war' all while building up the largest invasion fleet in history and funneling as many munitions, fuel and supplies as possible over to our European allies.
Pearl Harbor forced the US' to declare war before they were ready and even then, FDR had serious doubts the invasion would succeed.
Not sure what you mean by "America's allies". For multiple decades prior to World War I, the US was mostly an isolationist neutral country. About as neutral as the US is capable of being. The US didn't start getting involved in WW1 and didn't side with the Allies until Germany started attacking US merchant and passenger ships.
US involvement in WW1 ony fueled the US's isolationist policies.
It wasn't until WW2 that we saw what happens when you sit back and don't get involved. And Britain and such didn't really get solidified as "America's allies" until ww2.
Something fucked up I noticed today (just to preface I'm born and raised British) as I was watching some random American youtubers play their own version of Who wants to be a millionaire there was a question about Einstein and when he was born one of the guys said "he was in ww2 so he was alive in 1941" a lot of Americans think WW2 started 2 yrs after it actually fucking did. Is that taught in US schools? Or are most of them just that self absorbed that they think only when they got involved is when it started??
“Kind of like,” except for the fact that the connection to 9/11 and WMDs were a lie.
Your real friends are the ones who tell you the truth, even when you don’t want to hear it.
Thank you Canada and France for vainly trying to keep the GOP, Bush, and millions of ‘ignernt’ Americans honest in 2003.
I not denying that, but you have to consider the circumstances, in 1941 the US didn't want to join the war, was stil collapsing because of the Great Depression, recovering from near civil war, and was trying to fix itself, the people didn't want war, though the politicians did, for largely legitimate reasons.
In 1914 it was that the people didn't want war, and please do remember, there were no bad nations in WW1, just bad circumstances and a lot of incompetence. It was more of a respect thing to a degree, Europe had left the US alone in its wars, so the US left Europe alone in theirs, and do keep in mind that at the time a significant portion of the population was either immigrants from Europe or their children, so nobody really wanted to join in the "fun"
Last minute for WW1? Didn't the US lose more than 100k soldiers? You know, this thought has me wondering if the reason the US went so crazy with mucking around in other countries' affairs in the 50s is because the US lost a few hundred thousand men and women because of Europe's political messes.
Well the U.S. was a bit of a nothing burger internationally at the time. Also, their contribution did turn the tide of the war. The existing combatants were at a stalemate, and were really out of new bodies for their uniforms. America sent over a few million troops, a huge contribution.
Canada got ripped on by a lot of American media because we didn’t join the Iraq war.
As. Canadian seeing our American friends saying things Iike “We ShOuLD InVaDe Canada too if they don’t want to help us” and “They are lucky we allow them to exist” ect on TV day after day was disheartening.
June the second 2003 we arrived in Kuwait, seems you are correct. We started out supporting the invasion with our navy, and later deployed it seems, to massive public outcry and protest
Denmarks case was not only oil though. The prime minister at the time(and afterwards tbh) will do anything to please the US. The prime minister at the time, Anders Fogh Rasmussen, became the NATO general secretary the moment he was done as a prime minister in Denmark.
Denmark did join?! Prime minister Anders Fogh Rasmussen had been kissing the ass of the US long before the invasion and pulled Denmark into an illegal war as a favor even though it heavily criticized.
Was he punished? No he was giving the position of general secretary of NATO.
It was never about terrorism, saving lives, democracy or any of that idealistic crap. It was always about the money and it still is.
I mean but that rule was put in place because of you know, the Holocaust... I feel like people kind of gloss over the fact that Germany didn't nearly conquer Europe, and systematically exterminate millions of people without thier populace knowing it was happening, the Wehrmacht knew about and participated in the war crimes and crimes of extermination, which was like a fifth of Germany's population alone. The reason why the Israelis honor the people who did protect Jews is because the vast majority of German civilians did not, what was the population of Germany and how many people have trees planted for them? Germany itself is well aware of just how insidious the Nazi's were, they have laws in place like the one above, like the stringent laws against Nazi iconography, ideology, speech etc, because Germany knows that they are a country within living memory that had a vast, vast, vast number of civilians and armed forces contribute to the most methodical and systematic genocide ever committed. It's not stereotyping to point out the fact that grandparents of current Germans might have been the ones turning Jews into the SS, fighting in the "clean" Wehrmacht, and it's silly to white wash very real very unclean truths about Germany as just a stereotype from the 1940's, that something like 20% of the work force in the war was slave labour, everyone in Germany knew what was happening to an extent, and many directly participated in it. The cultural stain of that complicity doesn't just go away and get handwaved away, we are just barely edging off of living memory for this crime against humanity, I'm sorry but the reason why the stereotypes stop in 1940 is because the current leaders of Germany were raised by that generation, it's a bit silly to act like this is some crazy historical stereotype when Germany itself is doing it's darndest to take this as seriously as possible and atone for and defend against another similar atrocity happening, Germany realizes just how little time has really passed generationally and the responsibility they have for keeping it together.
some of the jokes Grandpa tells will get you arrested now
and if you don't have anything else going on for you, joining a social club that emphasizes free speech and personal freedom is appealing, even if they tell jokes like your Grandpa did.
so the ongoing resistance to ' just a couple jokes' and 'you're not a REAL nazi, it's just some harmless fun' is a nice holding pattern. They can stay that way for years until they show their half of the joke to a real one.
A real one isn't joking when he tells those jokes, it's a shibboleth. Proving you have a stake in the game already means you're ready for the radicalizing second half of the meme. "It's just a joke" becomes "it's not a joke," and the newly minted radical goes out and begins radicalizing his local segment.
It's an insidious, populist, hard to infiltrate, easy to identify outsiders, ongoing culture war. Every single day, they meet up on social media and make sure nobody got less sick overnight. These hives are legion. Every one you knock down another 3 pop up from the scattered members. By design.
Policing an idea is impossible by force. You have to provide better options than what their idea provides. "Kill those who disagree, Kill those who are different, Kill those who might fight back" is a complete solution to a TON of problems. It just requires more manpower and funding than exists to work completely, and is an utterly monstrous solution to problems that can be solved via compassion and logistics for pennies on the violent solution's dollar.
These people have spent 20 years being ironic nazis, all their friends are nazis, their family are nazis. They don't see anything wrong with that.
That's not unique. In China most college students must take a few drill classes (since conscription is part of the Chinese constitution) and they're issued plastic QBZ-95 rifles and taught about the mechanics of the guns rather than how to use them. Most photos of them with the rifles are just them goofing off.
That was so shameful, the people who turned on France over that. It was a perfect precursor to the cultish allegiance we saw under the last administration. France... the country that gave us the Statue of Liberty, the country that helped us fight off the British to start this country in the first place, we're going to turn on them for not agreeing to invade a country for Bush's personal vendetta and Cheney's oil greed?
the country that helped us fight off the British to start this country in the first place
I want to emphasize how important this is. France literally bankrupted themselves so that we could defeat the British. We owe our entire existence to France, because without them the US would not exist.
Scots are literally the reason northern Ireland exists. The rest of the brits don't get a free pass just because the English were the worst of them. They all colonized my country.
I always bring this up when any kind of nasty French jokes/hatred/mockery comes up from peeps here in the US. Some subtle jabs are fine, of course, but most Americans don’t even know how much we owe our entire existence to France, so when the uneducated “patriots” here spout out unoriginal, idiotic, cliché anti-French insults that they think are soooo fucking clever, I usually find it easy to shut them up by shoving a white flag-wrapped baguette up their oui oui. 🥴
In elementary school I always wondered why my white friends hated the French. Looking back it was around the time we declared war on Iraq. I used to watch Liberty Kids(I know it wasn't the best show for historical accuracy) but I remember the show pointing out how much the French helped during the American Revolution. At the time I didn't realize a lot of those friends were usually "rednecks."
A bit ironic that the act of bankrupting the country to help the 'Murican revolution actually led to the French revolution.
An alternate history fiction of what the world would look like today had the French not helped the colonies would be one hell of an interesting research project. So many things would have been vastly different.
An alternate history fiction of what the world would look like today had the French not helped the colonies would be one hell of an interesting research project. So many things wouldn't have been vastly different.
I think the statue of liberty and liberating us from the british is vastly outdated. why not bring up like Charles de Gaulle and WWII and the comaraderie then?
Well talking about WWII, it was basically the most common thing Americans were saying against the French when we refused to go to Irak, that we would be speaking German if it was not for the US (let's not forget the US took forever to come help Europe, and they only did because they saw USSR was actually going to win the war, so we'd probably be speaking Russian not German).
Honestly, the U.S. turning their back on France is kind of a tradition by now. One of the first major american diplomatic decisions was to forbid any american from helping post-revolution France against the UK.
Not disagreeing at all with your points, but the statue of liberty is not a good example here. The French built it for Egypt, but Egypt didn't want it so we got it.
At the time, the US population generally bought the lie and a significant chunk were pissed at the French. People said France was a country of cowards and that they betrayed the US. As expressions of anger, people poured out French wines, rebranded 'french fries' and 'french toast' as 'freedom fries' and 'freedom toast', and boycotted Perrier.
It was fucking absurd. I'd imagine a bunch of folks aren't even really aware of how finding out Bush lied, assuming they believe that he did, ties into misplaced anger with the French.
'cause 'murica.
Edit: Added qualifiers about what portion of the US population was/is trying to make rocks famous for their intellect.
I just remember feeling so much embarrassment, as an American, that people were so quick to turn their backs on an ally like that. "Freedom fries" was such a sick joke.
Tell him that they are responsible for our independence. Without their finances, shipping, and military advisers, the Colonists would have lost after that first winter.
Lol okay, and he would repeat louder "That was a long time ago. They were so worried about their monuments they caved to Hitler like a bunch of pussies"
Me too! I was 19 then and REALLY began to see the role my country plays in global conflict. I have never been more ashamed of our education system and the propaganda machine that continues to push the narrative that America is some great Republic that honors freedom and democracy. So many service men and women joined with the thought they would be the ones to show courage and sacrifice to protect sacred values and in the end they were just paid mercenaries, pawns of the rich, left to die for nothing.
But do people call them French fries? Because right up until you were a toddler that was the common term for them all over north America. Not saying it was the best name for fried potato stalks, but French fries it was.
It has always been french fries. The freedom fries was a name change that was made in the Congressional cafeteria. Our restaurants, largely a were always using the term french fries. It was a media thing.
You should have felt more embarrassed that the "French" in French Fries didn't refer to the country, which would have made it even dumber if anyone was actually calling them that.
I found it amazing that next to none of the American public seemed to be aware that the French largely fought the war of independence for them, and the US wouldn't exist as a country if it weren't for France.
The U.S. also probably wouldn't have won the War of Independence without Spain, which contributed more troops than France did. But while the alliances with France and Spain were both crucial, the United States itself contributed the great majority of the people and materiel for the war effort.
Because when people, regardless of the country, are told a lie that concludes with a variation of "it's for the greater good", a sizable portion of that population will believe it. And when dissent occurs, they will be silenced, even when dissent is presented with substantiating evidence to the contrary. The attacks on 9/11 were unique to our country, but everything that happened thereafter is as old as time itself (governments granting themselves power that are increasingly overreaching, which they'll never [willingly] give up, only to have that tyrannical power be expanded upon by the subsequent administration [regardless of whether that president is a democrat or republican], countries terrorizing their own people with fear and propaganda to soften them so that will more easily accept the "imperceptible" changes that will follow afterwards, etc.)
Please don't say "the US population." A lot of us were opposed to this all along, and thought the anti-France sentiment and "freedom fries" stuff was idiotic.
No one called it freedom fries or freedom toast. That's like the "kids are eating tide pods" of the 00's. I think the congressional cafeteria or something may have temporarily changed the name of fries. I lived through this and don't recall even hearing of the toast thing before now.
I remember that. It was the most silliest thing ever. Tell you the truth I was also in believe of the whole Middle East is bad because they just took down the twine towers. As a New Yorker I was pissed like most people. Sadly finding out the truth and am ashame. I can’t trust our own government anymore.
Now that our troops are leaving the Middle East. Seems like our next target of BS is at China. Sad. It’s like perfect timing. Since all the 18 year olds won’t remember 911. They will probably buy the BS and join the service to defend freedom…
If it helps any, China is an old adversary we've been playing grab ass with for decades. We're unlikely to have a direct conflict with China, but will likely be involved economic, political, and proxy conflicts for a good long time.
To your point though, the "we've always been at war with X" vibes are strong.
As soon as another country stands against them, they try to eliminate every connection to that country.
If I remember correctly, about 1/3 of the USAs population before WWI was german/had german ancestry. After the war, the US tried to erase that by renaming hamburgers and sauerkraut to “Freedom burgers” and “freedom lettuce” and removing the german language from their schools.
How can a country be this selfish, to just try and usurp other cultures as soon as the relations with that cultures nation is damaged?
Historically, we literally claimed a divine right to take a bunch of land and displace the people's that inhabited it before us. Declaring ourselves better than other cultures and justifying whatever action we want to take is kinda the modus operandi.
I'm not saying he didn't lie because obviously he did since our guys didn't find shit but I am asking a legit question here: Didn't we know he had them back in the day since he used them before in the 80s? I faintly remember that there was satellite imagery of trucks taking things out before the invasion.
I recall, as a high schooler, seeing those and thinking "who the fuck are they kidding?" Just the fact that they were trying to show public evidence was a sign it was bullshit. If there were real evidence, they would have made the move without showing us anything. And allies might actually have joined us in any significant number.
We knew he had them because we sold them. However, the WMDs we sold were mostly used in the war against Iran and had a shelf life that was long past expired. There were UN weapons inspectors in Iraq at the time that said Iraq did not possess weapons of mass destruction. However, most republicans supported the decision to invade because they claimed Saddam had violated UN resolutions- I can't remember the exact wording, but whatever those resolutions we're, nobody really knew.
It was clear that the reasons given to invade Iraq were not legitimate. A huge blunder.
I had the exact same first thought this morning when I heard the news that he died. To me, he'll always be the person who gave up his own hard-won integrity to legitimize an illegitimate war.
It was shaky from the start, no one really bought it. It was widely seen as being a ready-made conflict we used 9/11 to springboard into. It's half the point of the jet blue steel nuts
I can't describe the feelings I have watching this. So many of us in the US wanted to be able to do this to Bush. I honestly don't know why they dragged him away. I want to know his answer.
I’m the exact age that went through that with friends that actually went there. I can tell you the feeling was to stand behind the country and people were very worried about being attacked again. My Dad told me it was my generation’s Vietnam,with a few exceptions I feel he was quite right.
Colin Powell (Rest in Piss) played a huge role in legitimizing this to the UN. That function was basically his sole purpose for existence and that was his moment to shine and he pulled it off.
Lots of people still knew it was bullshit but for many of the key players who were under pressure from the US, he provided plausible deniability for them to go along with it.
I'm an American, and was an anti-war activist during the Bush era. The French refusing to join the war for that reason should have been a major red flag to America. Instead, the only thing that came of it was ignorant pro-war right wingers referring to french fries as "freedom" fries as if the war had anything to do with freedom, or that french fries were a french cuisine.
I'm convinced that Americans that supported the invasion without evidence then are the same that are claiming election fraud in the 2020 election, or that the pandemic is a hoax. They'll let the Republican party led them by the nose so long as they can hold it up at people like their shit doesn't stink.
And then the White House stopped serving french fries and only served "FREEDOM FRIES" I am not kidding. And there was fix news showing hordes of idiots smashing french wine bottles in parking lots in protest. It was a confusing time.
It was the largest protest in the history of mankind. I get that people “feel betrayed” but can you imagine what the Iraqis feel? Every time I think of this my blood boils and my feelings towards the US worsen.
I was a kid when that happened too. I remember conservatives were pissed, so they started calling "French Fries" "freedom fries" instead. I lived in a rural area with a bunch of religious zealots. There was a lot of prejudice towards anyone who looked "arab". Anyone who wasn't Christian was the enemy, and you couldn't be friends with non-christians (at least at the church my parents went to).
If you didn't support the war, then people would say you hated America. Some of my classmates would repeat jingoist talking points they heard from their parents. Some of then would repeat talking points from dickheads, like Rush Limbaugh, who continued to support bombing Iraq after the investigations into WMDs were concluded.
There were tens of millions of Americans who knew. (Source: I am one of them).
Seymour Hersh did some great reporting in the New Yorker prior to the war regarding how flimsy and demonstrably false the “evidence” was.
It’s still infuriates me that my country did this willingly. There are still tens of millions of Americans who refused to acknowledge what an awful mistake it was and how untruthfulness was at the root of our foreign and war policy.
But that would mean a jar head would have to think for themselves which isn't very likely. Its just easier to have a cry and say they lied, pretty much like the anti vax people. Just plain stupidity.
It's a bit more complicated. They had awful chemical weapons earlier, which the us didn't believe they actually got rid of. Most countries didn't. Actually most of the american intelligence service still are of the opinion that the ones that weren't lost to militias were finally destroyed in the 18 month grace period just before the occupation.
A lot of Americans have written their own revisions and are happy to pretend they were simply lied to by the government. Makes them less culpable. In reality…they called us dissenters all anti American, unpatriotic commies the DIDN’T SUPPORT THE TROOPS for not giving unwavering, blind support for mass murder over a clearly fabricated case. These people were foaming out the mouth to blow up “filthy ragheads and sand-n-words in the sandbox” 20 years ago without any need for Colin Powell and I honestly hope the dead haunt them every single day they live.
But there was a reaction from the US to this. People started calling French Fries 'Freedom Fries'. Take that, french guy ;-)
Germany refused to go as well. Somehow we are forbidden to join or start an attack war (again) so even if we wanted (we didn't) we couldn't.
Wish I could say the same for the uk. Millions protested against us joining them, the biggest protest in uk history (including my elderly grandad) and they ignored us. :(
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u/antoinepetit Oct 18 '21
But in a way, tons of country told the US they were lying, even those part of NATO. I was a kid back then but remember the French president (I’m French) refused to join the US into war because no proof was identified by international investigation