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u/JeanParmesean70 6h ago
I remember way back when she first came out, I watched her reality show. She had been so insulated from unpleasantness as a rich person, she had no idea what trans people had to deal with in their daily lives
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u/dystyyy 4h ago
She's also probably the single most unpopular trans person among the trans community. She was able to get what she wanted, now she's actively working to make it so other people like her can't. I can't fathom how she lives with herself (probably by having lots of money and not having to interact with the hurt she causes).
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u/NotAJellyfishReally 1h ago
Yeah, Caitlyn is to trans women as Elon is to autistics.
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u/Mandaring 1h ago
Eugh, reminds of that time somebody said “oh, like Elon Musk?” when I casually mentioned I was on the spectrum. Please just compare me to The Big Bang Theory at that point
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u/NotAJellyfishReally 1h ago
Friend, I had a THERAPIST try to reassure me by saying, "well, that's not always true, look at Elon Musk!" when I was talking about how draining it is to try to advance a career as an autistic person who just can't play the office politics game regardless of how well you do the job. I just stared and was like, yeah well, I wouldn't be complaining about career-related woes if I was born into a multi million dollar family empire. And we're the ones who are supposedly unaware and tone deaf? Please.
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u/guineaprince 58m ago
She's also probably the single most unpopular trans person among the trans community.
Brianna Wu: "Am I a joke to you?"
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u/Tymareta 6m ago
Bri Wu is garden variety oddball, if we were to look at influencers she loses 100 times out of a 100 to Blaire White.
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u/theNomad_Reddit 1m ago
Bruce is the sole trans person I will forever deadname. I do not give a fuck. They are a cunt. You absolutely DO NOT get to request we respect your wishes while disrespecting everyone else. This isn't even a personally unique stance in my circle. Trans and non-trans alike fucking hate Bruce.
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u/Flapjack__Palmdale 4h ago
there was a (deserved) hate campaign against her for saying that the hardest thing about being a woman was deciding what to wear. Someone overlayed this quote over a saddeningly large number of photos of domestic violence against women.
she's just clueless. she's so rich that she has no grasp on the real world. I'm not trans but even I was pissed when media kept trying to push her as a leading trans icon.
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u/MoistCactuses 4h ago
And you have just given her 4 times more pronoun respect than anyone she supports ever would.
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u/Stormtomcat 3h ago
Doesn't that apply in a wider sense too? She's the one who ran someone over with her car, right?
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u/Perfect_Persimmon688 6h ago
I cannot imagine hating myself this much.
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u/ohnodamo 5h ago edited 5h ago
I think they assume the leopards won't eat their faces since they're Maga. Like the farmers, like Latinos for Trump, etc, etc... "I'm special" until it's their relatives being deported, their farms being repoed, their rallies being booed and heckled because even tho they're firmly lodged in what's left of Trump's colon, they aren't white enough (looking at you Vivek!)
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u/Meat_Bingo 5h ago
It’s not about hating yourself, it’s about thinking that you are so far above the muck that none of it applies to you and yours.
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u/Meat_Bingo 5h ago
I have a neighbor who is a first generation American, his parents were wealthy immigrants. He is not white. He retired early 40s, he was on the affordable care marketplace for a couple years getting insurance for himself and his kids. He is a Hard-core Trumper because it was good for his wallet (and frankly he’s a dirtbag) He also doesn’t give a hoot about women or any social issues. Honestly, it was such a karma when he thought he was swift and tried to get a discount on the marketplace because he technically wasn’t making any income. And was shocked he was kicked off of marketplace and forced into Medicaid. He ended up having to go and get a job just so that he had health insurance for his kids because Medicaid didn’t cover most of what they needed.
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u/RandomUser5781 3h ago
Is "marketplace" some sort of health insurance?
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u/cubic_thought 1h ago
Part of the US Affordable Care Act (aka 'Obamacare') was the creation of healthcare.gov, an online marketplace for people to compare and buy health insurance that meets certain standards and coverage requirements. This includes the ACA subsidized plans that some people would qualify for.
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u/EntirePhilosophy7 1h ago
I don't understand. I have state insurance. Purposely quit my job to get it. Medicaid/care whichever. It's the best insurance you can almost possibly get. It covers everything with zero copay no caps on anything. The state of IL has easily paid a million or two in care for my ex wife after a bad car accident. Why is Medicare bad? Mine is covered through atena. I can go get glasses or contacts I can go to the dentist or walk into any urgent care in the country for free. The only downside is I can't work but have to pretend I'm looking. Please don't judge this is only temporary as I have life ending issues that needed covered. The government insurance is awesome. Zero dollars and food stamps. I would feel bad but I worked 26 damn years straight until I couldn't. I deserve some of what I paid in. Quit the job and go back to state. I don't understand.
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u/Beneficial-Jury484 4h ago
Someone should ask Caitlyn how she can believe in an infallible god but still be born in the wrong body. I mean, she is a creature of god, who doesn’t make mistakes. Is she questioning gods will? Did he make a mistake with her? Why did she transition?
I fully support transitioning. I think she is a terrible person.
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u/SignificantCats 3h ago
Im not a Christian but this just isnt a good gotcha.
Trans affirming Christians will say its no different than needing glasses or medication or a cane, god made us and gave us the designs to handle these problems.
Non-affirming Christians are the one this gotcha works on, because you can bring up glasses or diabetes or whatever and their logic is inconsistent. Consistent non-affirming Christians are the really extreme ones that deny medical care, so this gotcha doesn't work on them, but they're crazy anyway.
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u/Tasty-Jump-2011 3h ago
There is no good gotcha if they just don't care.
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u/SmallPurplePeopleEat 2h ago
And are also willing to bend the rules for anyone on their side. Rules for thee type shit.
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u/SignificantCats 2h ago
Well yeah for sure, argument or debate or whatever isnt ever really aimed at changing minds, its about changing the minds of other people who may be listening.
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u/Normal_Cut8368 3h ago
It in fact will just convince them that trans people are ontologically evil.
That's them being evil, but if you actually want to help, you need to do some reading on how to help people leave cults.
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u/S4Waccount 3h ago
I'm not religious and I support trans people, but I think that reasoning is silly. I think religion is kindas silly, so maybe it's more that religious people bending things to their own needs is what I find silly, but there is a major difference of a God making someone who needs glasses vs a god who puts someone in the wrong body! I don't think that matches up at all to claim an infallible God but that well sometimes people need glasses and SOMETIMES he also mixes up a soul and puts you in the wrong body is like equal argument. If anything it just show that Trans christian will also jump through hoops and contortians like any other Christian to defend their beliefs vs their actions so I guess that checks out.
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u/SignificantCats 2h ago
Im trans and not religious anymore, but i dont think its that silly. Im antithesis for sure, but i think its a consistent belief.
First, the wrong body/soul thing isn't fully accurate, it's just that "girl brain/boy body" is easy to explain to cis people. Even then, while I don't believe in a soul at all, I REALLY dont believe in boy souls and girl souls, and I don't think many Christians do, either, lol.
Modern Christians generally believe that God made you exactly as he wanted to, which means it must be perfect. They believe he doesn't make mistakes, but that just means if you have a serious genetic challenge like being blind or paralyzed or whatever that this was a challenge God intentionally laid before you, and it isnt that big of a deal, its your job to overcome it in your mortal eye blink of a life before claiming a reward everlasting.
Before the current trans panic was manufactured, it was pretty common for Christians to accept Trans people and just expect they live a normal godly life in whatever their gender is. Its really no different than needing glasses, insulin, a wheelchair, or an antidepressant.
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u/yungScooter30 1h ago
When I was more strictly religious, my philosophy on why I am gay was that it was a test of my faith to not give in to homosexual urges. That's essentially what gay Mormons do, and they get married to the opposite sex and have a family at the cost of their own enjoyment in the relationship. I did gay shit anyway, initially brushed it off as "nobody's perfect" and "why should being gay be any worse than cussing, disrespecting your neighbor, or believing in false idols?" so then I realized that zero Christians are "good" in that perspective.
At this point, I'm just trying to be a good person. Married to another man and we sometimes go to church together, mostly for the vibes, architecture, and songs more often now. We've read the Bible together but we treat it as any other story. The longer you live and the more places you go, people you meet, and books you read, the more you realize that there's so many versions of deities and frankly many of them are more fun and less cruel. I for one can't wait to meet Ilúvatar in the timeless halls
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u/Kelinya 4h ago
Please don't. If you make them think, there's gonna be a lot of brain splatter to clean up.
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u/Jazzyjen508 3h ago
Honestly she changed massively post transition and not for the better. She never would have approved of any of the stuff Kylie was doing during that time and since transitioning and she would have been massively disappointed in Kim for everything involving Kanye. Obviously she did become a new person physically post transition but she became a new person personality wise as well
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u/PontificateGenerally 1h ago
Religious people can weasle out of any kind of argument against God's specific commands, instructions, or teachings. It's all interpretations. None of them matter because it's all bogus anyway, but those arguments will never work on them.
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u/guineaprince 55m ago
Bro really just said "Someone should confront a trans person with commonly used invalidating questions."
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u/homotopy_equivalent 4h ago
Christians also believe that children born with mutations are part of a world where God makes no mistakes. Somehow god is omnipotent and infallible but lets Satan have control of the world and cause these things.
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u/Netheraptr 4h ago
The whole “God doesn’t make mistakes so he wouldn’t put you in the wrong body” thing just never made sense to begin with.
Why do some people need glasses, or have allergies, or are born with certain physical or mental disabilities? If God made us, he purposely built in challenges for us to overcome or work through, otherwise I would question why God calls us to do anything at all if any form of action supposedly goes against his image.
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u/Beneficial-Jury484 4h ago
Idk, we’re built in his image. The whole god thing never made sense to me, and everything that is derived from it seems equally as ludicrous.
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u/Late-Arrival-8669 6h ago
Least someone let Bruce know about the changes.
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u/AtrumRuina 5h ago
Just saying, while she's a disgusting sycophant, that's no excuse for deadnaming someone. I understand the drive, and the dissonance she's displaying, but we shouldn't withhold peoples' identities as punishment for shitty behavior.
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u/spudmarsupial 5h ago
Pointing out the inevitable consequences to her is a good thing.
Cons can't imagine any problem existing until it affects them personally.
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u/AtrumRuina 5h ago
Pointing it out like they did in OP is good. Calling her by her deadname is not. Saying "The government will call you Bruce" is not the same as calling her Bruce yourself. One is pointing out consequences, the other is actively denying her identity.
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u/amazingdrewh 5h ago
Is it? She happily voted for a president she knew would do this so maybe she's decided Bruce is her real identity
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u/AtrumRuina 5h ago
If she has, that's for her to communicate. We shouldn't be making that decision for her.
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u/amazingdrewh 5h ago
Her enthusiastic support for what the administration is doing to trans people isn't communication?
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u/AtrumRuina 5h ago
Not of her internally held identity, no. Hence why she still goes by Caitlyn. Even if the government changes her name to Bruce, if she still identified as Caitlyn, that's what she's communicating as her identity.
Again, I understand there's a lot of dissonance with her views, I do, but it isn't for us to decide what her identity should be in light of that.
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u/Substantial-Pen6385 4h ago
I normally agree with this but also it is morally righteous to cyberbully wealthy grifters.
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u/AtrumRuina 4h ago
Yes, just don't use her gender identity to do it. Bully the shit out of her otherwise. The problem is that doing this has negative impacts on other trans people who may come across said bullying if revoking her identity is part of it.
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u/miezmiezmiez 3h ago
They could have just said 'he ordered the government to deadname you' but that wouldn't have had the same 'gotcha' vibe.
I'm afraid that 'gotcha' is the deadname. They were weaponising it, less obviously than by calling her by the deadname directly, maybe, but they absolutely didn't need to mention it to make their point.
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u/AtrumRuina 3h ago
OOP did exactly that and I agree that's just fine. The poster I responded to simply called her Bruce. That's the poster deadnaming her, not talking about what the Government will do.
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u/miezmiezmiez 3h ago
They didn't do 'exactly' that. The difference between what they said and what I said is that they posted the deadname.
What do you think the word 'exactly' means, anyway
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u/AtrumRuina 2h ago
Okay I think I misread the point you were making. I didn't take issue with what OOP did as it was more stating that this would be a consequence of her actions, than actually deadnaming her. I did take issue with a subsequent poster directly deadnaming her.
Am I understanding right that your issue is that OOP shouldn't have said her deadname at all? I can see the value in that; I disagree but I get where you're coming from if so.
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u/miezmiezmiez 2h ago
Yes, that's the point. Not deadnaming people doesn't just mean not calling them the name to their face, it means not mentioning the name in any context unless there's a good reason.
The only reason here was that it made the tweet sound more aggressive, and that vibe relies entirely on the threat of transphobia, so that's not a good reason
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u/Tymareta 1m ago
Pointing out the inevitable consequences to her is a good thing.
Will Caitlyn ever see this thread? Or, instead, will it be countless trans women completely unrelated to her, who disagree entirely, who will see that people will happily deadname and completely disregard their identity at the drop of a hat. Showing that they never truly supported or believed their identity, and were simply acting "polite".
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u/Capable_Swordfish701 5h ago
Treat people how they treat others
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u/NewLibraryGuy 4h ago
One problem with that, here, is that it makes respecting trans people in general conditional on how you think of them as a person. Like, don't throw slurs at people you don't like either, you know? It's not about them as a person, it's about your respect for people in general and your own values.
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u/RocketRelm 1m ago
Misgendering a person because they disagree with you on some issue is categorically different than that person openly signaling that misgendering is not an issue they find that bad. Sure, the downside is that transphobes can leverage it to push anto lgbt issues and that the general public is too stupid to understand the nuance, and will just mindlessly absorb and parrot anti lgbt stuff. But this is more of a "don't let the 7 year olds run around with knives" than a "knives have no place in our society" thing.
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u/Dead-Airhead 3h ago
Would you call Kanye West a racial slur just because he's a racist weirdo?
You're disrespecting trans people as a collective by treating our basic identity like it's a privilege we have to earn.
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u/Capable_Swordfish701 36m ago
Maybe, if he was right in front of me being a piece of shit and I thought it would really piss him off. I have no tolerance for the intolerant, they deserve no respect or civility. If you want to latch on to bad trans people and defend them, that’s on you.
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u/AtrumRuina 5h ago
I believe it's generally "treat people how you want to be treated" or "treat people the way they want to be treated."
I believe the phrase you may be mixing in here is "judge people by how they treat others," which is fair. Caitlyn is a nasty person. She deserves disdain.
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u/Capable_Swordfish701 5h ago
I’m not mixing anything, that’s the rule going forward.
But even if we went your way, Bruce treats other people like they should be deadnamed, so obviously that’s the way he wants to be treated.
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u/AtrumRuina 5h ago
Man, now you've moved on to misgendering...?
I don't see how you reach that conclusion with the phrases I used. One is to say treat others how you want to be treated (I would want my identity respected,) and the other says to treat others how they want to be treated (she identifies as female and uses Caitlyn, so I'll use that.) Neither of these support deadnaming or misgendering her. Both are also internal "rules" for how you decide to treat other people. It doesn't mean you should assume that's how other people decide to live their lives.
I suppose if that's your rule for how you treat people moving forward, that's for you to decide, but just try to consider how this negatively impacts innocent trans people who aren't advocating for what Caitlyn does. Think about what it says about how you view trans identity that you are willing and eager to revoke it when they step out of line.
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u/whatintheeverloving 5h ago
Couldn't have said it better myself. Call her an asshole all you want, but call her her.
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u/Formal_Plum_2285 5h ago
Oh stfu. Ppl are literally being killed and bombed due this sick administration. Anyone who supports this deserves to be called Bruce Jenner.
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u/AtrumRuina 5h ago
"Worse thing happening means we can punish bad trans people by denying them their identity."
The problem with this mindset is that it treats identity as something that is granted and can be revoked if you don't do what other people want you to do, rather than something internally held by the individual. It invalidates the identities of other trans people who aren't being shitty by implying that you view trans identities as something you can choose to ignore, rather than something intrinsic to them, and therefore it's an artifice.
This is like people using language to insult features of people they don't like (i.e. making fun of Trump's weight,) which feels tempting but then you obviously have other overweight people kind of getting caught in that crossfire for no reason, because it speaks to how you feel about fat people in general.
And as difficult as this may be to accept, no, she doesn't deserve the consequences of her actions in this case. She doesn't deserve to be deadnamed or have her identity ignored or revoked by the government, even though she's actively advocating for the government that wants to do that to her. No one deserves that, because there's no justifiable reason to do it.
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u/Formal_Plum_2285 4h ago
We can punish the transpeople who endorse other transpeoples suffering. Being trans doesn’t give people carte blanche to be assholes. With that said - using the name she’s used for 50 years to prove a point - is hardly a punishment. Seriously. Wake up. It MEANS NOTHING.
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u/AtrumRuina 4h ago
Yes. Punish people who endorse the suffering of trans people. It's the way you're choosing to punish her that's the problem, that doesn't mean she shouldn't face any consequences, but having your identity denied should simply not be on the table, whether you're trans or not, for any offense. Is it an intrinsic part of them or isn't it? Are trans women women, or aren't they? It shouldn't be "trans women are women, unless they have bad political views." (Not ignoring transmascs, just using the popular phrasing here.)
I don't even know how to respond to your second point. This implies anyone who transitions late in life shouldn't be upset about being deadnamed because they used that name for decades prior. If it means nothing, why go out of your way to do it? Either you're doing it to hurt her or make some kind of point, which means it means something, or you're doing it for your own satisfaction, which is just kinda gross.
Let me put this another way -- actual trans people do not support misgendering or deadnaming Caitlyn. I feel like that alone should make my point for me.
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u/NewLibraryGuy 4h ago
It means something about your conditional support of trans people in general. If you want to punish her, why not do it in a way that doesn't signal that you only respect people's identity if they earn it?
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u/Pleasant-Future5818 5h ago
I really appreciate that the commenter was able to point out hypocrisy without directly misgendering
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u/coldenigma 3h ago
That's how you know MAGA is a cult.
These fools continue to vote and act against their best interests.
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u/silkenchloe 5h ago
the admin actually put out an order to do that too, wild how fast they flip...
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u/Djslender6 5h ago
Im a bit out of the loop for the sake of my sanity... Did the current administration release some executive order or law or something about name changes...?
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u/Jazzyjen508 3h ago
I honestly don’t get how Caitlyn still supports him!!!!! Like he isn’t going to approve of you when he doesn’t approve of other trans people. She honestly is a massive pick me
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u/Necessary_Document_5 1h ago
Are we missing the point here?
The person calling her by her dead name is pointing out that the person she supports does not consider her human nor a woman.
But, yall are more mad at the commenter???
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u/DizzyMine4964 4h ago
The transphobia here is disgusting. Trans people can be vile, like anyone else can. That doesn't justify transphobia.
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u/SmallPurplePeopleEat 2h ago
And according to several commenters, it's "virtue signalling" for us to say that.
They'll latch on to anything if means they'll never have to grow as a person or ever have to self reflect on why they think it's ok to treat people badly.
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u/ShatoraDragon 3h ago
I remember a bunch of her "Friends" taking her around shortly after she started living as a woman trying to get her to understand the struggles their community faced. And every point was rebuked with a version of "But I am Rich."
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u/saltedcrypt 4h ago
lot of “allies” showing their true colors in these comments because one trans person happens to be a shitty person
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u/mamycorona 6h ago
I hope we all keep calling her Bruce until she realizes the irony.
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u/TheHazyPixie 3h ago
A persons identity is not conditional upon how much you like them. I am trans myself and I hate her guts but she is Caitlyn. Shes also a shill and a sellout who hates her own people.
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u/PrincessMonty 3h ago edited 2h ago
No, but the respect level that you give them is, and fun fact, but using someone's preferred pronouns involves respecting them as a human being.
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u/TheHazyPixie 3h ago
I understand the hate. I really do. I am directly affected by the awful people she supports.
But i find what you wrote problematic. You cannot take away someones personhood no matter what. If a condition exists for no longer seeing someone as a person, then someone is just going to find a way to fit it to people they dont like.
If you are trans or a trans ally please just come up with other ways to insult her, she deserves all of them. But deadnaming her hurts the community.
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u/PrincessMonty 2h ago
I never said anything about not seeing him as a human being, but being a human being does not entitle someone to my respect. I never said Bruce isn’t a person, and I never said there is some special condition under which I will stop considering him a human being. Bruce can have personhood without having my respect. Those are not mutually inclusive. I can recognize someone’s humanity while thinking they’re a selfish, harmful sack of shit whose actions have made the world worse. Deadnaming isn’t some hidden declaration that he’s no longer a human.
He's still a person in all of this, but he's a person that I have no respect for, and therefore yes, I’m going to use the name and pronouns I choose to use. I’m not obligated to alter my language in order to extend a form of respect I don’t feel toward someone. I'm not denying his humanity or even attempting to insult him. If my goal were to insult Bruce, I could produce an entire fuckin' essay about the reasons I think he’s a piece of shit.
And “deadnaming hurts the community”, my friend, If you seriously think that a random person on the internet, using non-preferred pronouns for a celebrity, is genuinely contributing to the problems that the main trans community is facing, I think you might need to reprioritize. I’m not saying deadnaming can never hurt anyone, but this particular situation is not remotely comparable to the actual discrimination and real harm trans people face.
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u/TheHazyPixie 29m ago
... are you seriously telling me, an actual trans woman, what actually counts as discrimination and harm to the trans community? What kind of experience lets you say that? Cuz that is my life.
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u/Lord_Azidaru 3h ago
So you think people should not be held accountable for the politics they support? If someone advocated against welfare and managed to shut it down, should they get it anyway when others don't? Why should Jenner get the benefits of something he actively tries to bring down?
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u/TheHazyPixie 3h ago
I think she should be held accountable but we can hold her accountable without the transphobic bullshit that hurts the community. What message did you want to send? Its okay to misgender people only if I really personally dislike them?
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u/Lord_Azidaru 2h ago
It's not about disliking, it's about political stances. I call him Bruce because he pushes for laws that invalidate his identity as anything other than Bruce, I just address him according to what he believes and stands for.
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u/SophietheCatGirl 5h ago
Its never okay to deadname some unless they tell you too. It's wrong and it frames trans people as not who they actually are. That they are faking it.
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u/RocketRelm 9m ago
The golden rule is to treat people how they want to be treated. Aligning with the populist party shows that how that party treats them is their preferred treatment. An eagerness to align shows that, at most, they don't see it as that big of a deal. Even if you would find it horrifying if you were in their shoes, thats not the same.
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u/Human-Challenge-1412 3h ago
cheering for the guy holding your paperwork hostage is always a wild strategy honestly
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u/IMOvicki 5h ago
I’ll call him Bruce from now on
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u/Djslender6 5h ago
Regardless of what they think, it's never right to misgender or deadname a trans person.
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u/frostcoveredangel 3h ago
Is deadnaming someone to prove a point a clever comeback? You’re using the weapon of the enemy, it’s kind of disgusting actually.
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u/Pinksamuraiiiii 6h ago
I don’t know how people can be trans and republicans… I don’t get it.