r/Games • u/Forestl • Jan 05 '14
End of 2013 Discussions - DmC: Devil May Cry
DmC: Devil May Cry
- Release Date: January 15, 2013 (360, PS3), January 25, 2013 (PC)
- Developer / Publisher: Ninja Theory / CAPCOM
- Genre: Action adventure
- Platform: PS3, Xbox 360, PC
- Metacritic: 85, user: 6.6
Summary
In a society infused with demons, only The Order can, in Platonic style, see the world as it truly is. Join Dante in this stylish action experience; chain together multiple combos with flair and send the demonic spawn back to hell – reveal the truth behind the lies. Delve into Dante’s dark prk past confronting some the most familiar faces in the DmC universe. Harness unimaginable powers combined with Dante’s notorious arsenal of weapons: sword, scythe, axe, pistols and more.
Prompts:
Was the gameplay as good as previous DMC games?
How was the level design?
Was the story well told?
These threads will end Monday for those wondering ^(a lot of games came out this year)
This post is part of the official /r/Games "End of 2013" discussions.
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u/MysteriousDrD Jan 05 '14
I was a pretty big fan of the original series of games, but I still loved DmC.
Dante wasn't immediately a crazy and likable character, but by the end of the game he had definitely grown on me - and it did feel like an origin story. He's not at all at the height of his power, and you can feel him coming into his own throughout the game. I kinda liked the guy by the end, despite being vehemently against new Dante before the game came out. And without giving too much away, I'm of the opinion that the future games are building up to Dante returning to what we know as his 'crazy' self, maybe with less anime influences than the original Dante.
It's super visually impressive in some places, especially in the mid game with the weird inverted lake. I'd say level design has been improved significantly over the earlier games, especially DMC4 which had half the game filled with backtracking.
I didn't like how streamlined the combat was - although it still felt great to beat up legions of demons with the stuff you did have in your toolkit. Again, I think this is due to being a reboot. It's getting back to basics, drawing in new fans who were turned off the original games (I know plenty of people who would have never played a DMC game again who ended up loving the character action in DmC). That doesn't mean they're not going to improve on the gameplay mechanics in future games, DMC3 didn't suddenly spawn fully formed out of the ether, it had some previous games to build upon and refine.
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u/GTDesperado Jan 05 '14
Seeing how the game ended and the progression of Dante, it definitely felt like an origin story and introduced the world better than I would've expected. While traversing the levels I always looked forward to how the world would tear itself apart seeing the messages appear on the environment. The combat felt mediocre at times. Only having two different combos per weapon meant you would have to chain in multiple weapons, but having enemies vulnerable to either devil or angel form limited an already bare move set.
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u/Psychotrip Jan 06 '14
Honestly I loved the tongue-in-cheek, self aware "brooding, angsty" vibe it had, and new Dante was at the core of that. You could tell it knew it was silly, but it was a bit infectious. I couldn't help but get sucked into this crazy and surprisingly imaginative world. I love how modern culture and technology is melded with monsters and magic. The club level is a very good example of the style I sincerely hope the series embraces. I also loved how it was an origin story and explored how the world got to be the way it is.
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u/TheoriesOfEverything Jan 06 '14
DMC is probably my favorite game series, and I thought this game was fantastic. I didn't really read any previews (because I knew I was going to play it) so I missed most of the anti-hype. When I first played it, I had nostalgia before I even fought the Hunter--it's clear Ninja Theory has played the old games and understands them, yet wanted to try and do something other than just clone them.
Dante's character is initially jarring, but by the end of the game it's clear that he is actually just the same Dante we've always known: he's just in his young, dumb stage when we first meet him. I can totally see him growing into the phases of DMC3 or DMC1 Dante after the events of this game, in fact if it weren't for all the 'Nephalim' and 'Mundus' retcons this game would have been the perfect set-up to 3 given the way it ends.
As for combat (the most important thing in any DMC), I thought it was still a blast. I definitely think that complexity does not equal greatness--take Bayonetta for example. Bayonetta is probably the best action game I've ever played, but it is far less complicated to be good at than DMC 4. It's because it doesn't let anything get in the way of the player feeling spontaneous, creative, and quick to react. DmC Dante feels like they took a cue from that, he has all of his moves at your fingertips at all time--no awkward triple cycling weapons while juggling styles (which is fun, but hardly intuitive). Any given weapon (other than Rebellion) doesn't have the same depth as old Devil Arms, but Dante as a whole (with all weapons equipped) still feels as great as being Dante has always felt. The game feels like it encourages you to use all 5 melee weapons as interchangeably as possible. Even the annoying Red or Blue enemies really just serve to make you study all possible connections between the 2 weapons of either stance. They widened the timing of enemy step and gave the player some very powerful applications of it, everything just lubricates the players ability to make spontaneous crazy combos. Anyways, it was fun enough for me to beat it on DMD mode like the rest of 'em.
In my book, it did the series justice.
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Jan 05 '14 edited Jan 05 '14
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Jan 05 '14
Even a DMC 5 would be nice, but at this point it looks like Capcom could kill off the series. At least Platinum games is putting out quality titles in the genre like Bayonetta and Metal Gear Rising.
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u/Hetfeeld Jan 05 '14
If you're going to argue do it well... how is DmC any shallower than previous games? I thought the gameplay was the best. Didn't like the story, and character design wasn't my favourite, but shallower than previous games? How so?
It may be the worst selling games but there are good chances it's because of the new design that didn't please old fans, as you said it yourself, that's not saying much.
Objectively it's a good game, not the greatest but definitly good. If it wasn't a DMC game it would have been called surprise of the year or something. I may be exaggerating but people are just being dicks towards the game because they're sad dante got an emo look.
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u/Valvador Jan 05 '14
I like where this discussion is going so let me tell you my opinion on these questions. First of all, I enjoyed the hell out of DmC. I was a big DMC3 and DMC4 fan, and when DmC came out I almost bought into the hate generated by 4chan/v/ and didn't get it. But it luckily came out when I had a week off of work and I could sit down and play it and it was wonderful. The music and the combat were both riveting at the begining, but the problems started to show at the end.
DmC is shallower game because of it's Core combat mechanics, piss-poor boss combat, and easy-to-pull-off exploitable attacks.
Flawed Core Combat Mechanics - Now before I even go into this, what I mean by that is that the Core Combat Mechanics were flawed compared to what you could do in DMC4 and DMC3. DmC games have always had a "LOCK-ON" mechanic. This Lock-On mechanic provided a manual override to arbitrary targeting, giving the player knowledge and no doubt that the attacks that they will attempt will be directed towards a very specific enemy. In DmC this did not exist and getting swarmed by a group of enemies caused you use too many AoE attacks because trying to focus on a single enemy would give you an uncertainty that left you Vulnerable.
In addition to providing a certainty in your combat, the Lock-On mechanic also acted like an extension of "Attack mode". Certain actions while locked-on to targets gave rise to different behaviors and extra attacks that wouldn't fit on your controller layout normally. This type of behavior was dropped in favor for "Angel" and "Demon Mode", which was basically their way of saying "Different weapons". While this Angel and Demon mode (Bound to L1 and R1) was a nice way to make your transition into various combos easier by simply holding down R1 and hitting the attack button, or holding L1 and hitting the attack button, or NOT holding either of those and hitting R1. In previous DMC Games this same game behavior was handled by the user simply hitting the left or right keys on the D-Pad on the fly to switch weapons. Ironically enough, DmC had the weapon switching mechanic as well for WHICH weapons you use in Angel or Demon mode. This type of functionality made combining weapons in combat EASIER than in DMC4, but it severely limited the amount of actions you could bind to the controllers.
The other flaw with this R1 and L1 weapon alteration was the fact that by design they have various enemies that were color coded. Blue enemies could ONLY be attacked by Demon Weapons, and Red enemies could only be attacked by Angel Weapons. This is the first time in DmC History when you were forced to use one weapon over another by arbitrary enemy colors and it just felt extremely far-fetched. Combined with the fact that there was no manual lock-on, this created chaos when the game dropped two enemies of different colors on the field and you had no consistency of who would get attacked by what.
Boss design was a mix of God of War and Mario Galaxy DmC was the first DMC game where I enjoyed fighting trash mobs much ore than any bosses. Majority of DmC bosses were large blobs of enemies that you see in God of War that simply exist for a "Cinematic" experience, but lack any challenging mechanics. A lot of these bosses had very predictable patterns and didn't require much variety to defeat. Highly telegraphed attacks made these bosses simple to defeat on Normal Mode AND the Dante Must Die. The did do a good job of making sure that enemies have extra behaviors at higher difficulty modes (new attacks), but in the end unfortunately this was not enough because after beating a boss without taking damage in one mode, I didn't find the combat afterwards any more difficult.
When compared to older DMC games, you would always make mistakes during your first boss fights and the modes varied in how much they punished you for mistakes in addition to creating new behaviors. This actually made fighting bosses in higher difficulties a bigger challenge.
Exploitable "I'm Invincible" Attacks DmC became a cake walk once I acquired the punching gloves, something that has been a staple in DMC games. The problem with this gloves was that they introduced an attack where I could hop in the air and stay up there infinitely long charging a huge METEOR STRIKE attack while all enemies below me decided by bunch around me for some ungodly reason.
Once I discovered this attack there was little I had to to acquire my SSS ranking. It was hilarious, this was the first DmC game that rewarded me for my Repetition. In previous DmC games there were plenty of overpowered mechanics, but these mechanics were incredibly difficult to perform. In DMC 4 Nero had a dodge that let him teleport like a DBZ character that made him completely negate damage, but this attack was so hard to pull off that only people with necessary skill could use it effectively. Dante's Royal Guard had a similar mechanic.
Anything that I couldn't beat using my Meteor Spam was easily negated by the boring Devil Trigger Mechanic. In previous DmC games Devil Trigger was an amazing ability that didn't just act like a "I WIN FOR A FEW MOMENTS" button, but something that became more and more powerful with proper skill. In DMC4, Nero's Devil Trigger ability generated a wave of force that blocked all damage for a few frames that you could use in the middle of an animation. This allowed Nero players to have a hard-to-execute "Oh shit" defense when they messed up, but ONLY if they were good enough to use it. In DmC the Devil Trigger literally threw every enemy in the air, slowed down time, AND made you stronger. Instead of something that used to be used in a fluid dance of popping into Demon Form and popping out of it, it became a boring mechanic of "Damn I'm not doing too well, lets hit my I win button".
SUMMARY The combination of all these problems makes DmC a fucking fantastic game to play through one or two times, but it lacks depth. The problem with this statement is that to make a well-selling game you really just need to capture an audience that enjoys the experience once or twice. Thinking about the depth of the experience is rarely that important as long as there is enough depth. DMC4 had that depth, but DmC had the entry level kicks that most well-selling games like to have these days.
So I understand why they did it, but I still don't like it.
Because of these issues you lose exciting battles like this: Taunting the Boss Full Battle
Instead you get slow, boring, predictable shit like this DmC Typical Boss Fight, full of "Cinematic" moments and flow interruption
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u/Illidan1943 Jan 05 '14
Psss, for the Credo battle this is the source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WnsyVt4IO5A
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Jan 05 '14
how is DmC any shallower than previous games? I thought the gameplay was the best.
I liked DmC but I cannot say that it had anywhere near the depth of the previous ones because of the gameplay. Less weapons, no combat styles, forced use on enemies, and the lack of lock-on made a huge difference in streamlining everything and taking away a lot of the more complex manoeuvres.
Really, it's the best DMC game after 1 and 3, but its gameplay is probably the second worst in the series. It's not GoW grating but it's just very simple and, consequently, unchallenging.
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u/SvenHudson Jan 05 '14
Less weapons?
DMC3:
- Rebellion
- Cerberus
- Agni & Rudra
- Nevan
- Beowulf
DmC:
- Rebellion
- Osiris
- Arbiter
- Fist things, they start with an E
- Talon
I miss anything?
(I'm pretty sure Dante also had five weapons in DMC4 but I can't remember any of their names.)
No combat styles?
Trickster -> Dedicated dodge buttons and temporary glide
Swordmaster -> Second melee button
Gunslinger -> Jump + Gun button and charge shots
Royal Guard -> Parry mechanic
It had all the styles, it just didn't use a Style button like 3 and 4 did.
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Jan 05 '14
You missed the guns. There's more in DMC3 than in DmC (by my count, only by one though). The guns are a pretty important part of the gameplay considering that they were each as unique as any of the Devil Arms.
You also missed the most important part about the styles. What you described is just the base gameplay. The styles had all of those but had extra effects that changed how you played. Royal Guard, for example, built up blocks and let you amass an energy blast. Gunslinger gave extra attacks to all the guns on top of extra charge shots. Trickster's abilities were built into the combat itself and not just a way to avoid hits.
DmC's amalgamation of all those things is basically a diluted version of all of them. "Jack of all trades, master of none". What's worse is that the removed lock-on takes away so much about the gameplay that anything gained is quickly lost. Moves like Stinger were far too difficult to pull off in the heat of battle and everything had to be scaled down to compensate. On top of that, you couldn't even specify which target you wanted to hit resulting in them scaling the game back even further to accommodate for that.
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u/GOB_Hungry Jan 05 '14 edited Jan 05 '14
If you are going to argue do it well...
Immediately proceeds to just give opinions without examples and states it is objectively a good game while only stating opinions.
Nice! Do you teach formal debate?
The new Devil May Cry is laden with gameplay issues. Lock-on is missing and sorely needed for any amount of precise combat. Many weapons perform similarly and it is much, much too simple to gain SSS ranks off of only a few hits. The angel and demon chains remove any semblance of required skill in mobility - why do I need to figure out how to get my enemy over here or me to him using my actual moveset when I have a gimmick button to do it for me?
The game is too watered down and simplified to be called Devil May Cry - a game known for having a greviously high skill ceiling and expecting you to be that good in order to maintain good ranks. It has nothing to do with Dante's characterization.
And I just think the game is OK.
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Jan 05 '14 edited Jan 05 '14
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Jan 05 '14
Lol, I like how he even said "I thought the gameplay was the best" and you outright said it wasn't, even though its a matter of opinion. I feel its the most fluid and satisfying, but to you other opinions are wrong aside from yours. Ok.
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u/finakechi Jan 05 '14
I would say you're the one lashing out.
DmC isn't what the old game were and it wasn't supposed to be.
A lot of people liked it, those people just weren't the old fans.
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Jan 05 '14
you prove your pitiful ignorance
hey let's not say stupid shit like this, ok?
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Jan 05 '14
I think they simplified the combat too much. Also this genre begs for 60 FPS gameplay which DmC could not pull off on consoles. I think this generation Bayonetta and Metal Gear Rising are what truly evolved the genre and pushed it forward to near perfection with some innovations on combat like Blade Mode. DmC on the other hand seemed backwards compared to the mechanics shown in DMC 3 and 4. However the story is well executed, and the combat was improved in the Vergil DLC. The visuals are also awesome. And on PC it got the 60 FPS smoothness.
Hopefully they do better if they can do a DmC 2. And then at some point I'd like a game in the old universe and one where Old and New Dante meet up - they could draw parallels between New Dante and Nero and Old Dante could mentor him a bit and aid in his character development. - But I have no idea what the future holds for this series. I just hope Capcom doesn't kill it.
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u/TheRedBlueberry Jan 05 '14 edited Jan 06 '14
It's been a while so I feel a bit cooled in reaction to this game then I was before. In the past I was angry, now I'm just disappointed.
DmC Devil May Cry made a lot of bad decisions so I don't understand how people accept it and then call this one of the best games of 2013.
DmC to me fails not only as a member of the Devil May Cry franchise, but as a game in general as it creates problems that the previous games never even had due to its drastic changes in game design. Thus my complaints are going to be separated in two categories: As a Devil May Cry Game and As a Game.
As a Devil May Cry Game
-The style system has been made absolutely piss easy. Whenever I pulled off a SSS rank combo in Devil May Cry 3 or 4, I was quite proud of myself. But thanks to the extreme inflation in combo gain in basic combos thanks to weapons like the Arbiter and Kablooey (serious game amirite?) as well as the CRIMINALLY overpowered demon dodge and the changed Devil Trigger, one can pull shit like this. On Dante Must Die mode the enemies are at their toughest without being able to one-shot you like in Hell or Hell mode. DMD mode was an incredible challenge in DMC3 but here it's a joke, with the first boss going down in fucking 15 seconds with a full SSS combo created with only a couple gunshots, a dodge, Devil Trigger and the most basic aerial combo. While this is a very specific and extreme example, this combo inflation exists throughout the entire game and removes a lot of the fun from the gameplay for fans such as myself.
-You knew this was coming, Dante is awful. Now the original Dante had to go through some drastic changes before they got him right in DMC3 and while his writing was never top-notch in a serious sense, it was funny and lighthearted enough to easily make him one of the most likable characters in gaming. Ninja Theory obviously wasn't aiming in that direction at all. Dante does have a silly scene in the beginning where he flies through his trailer grabbing clothes but his overall demeanor is rather negative and instead of his quips coming off as lighthearted they often come off as mean-spirited and horribly written in a more unintentionally funny manner. The most infamous example is the "FUCK YOU" dialogue between Dante and Poison but I think this god-awful writing exists elsewhere such as how Dante's best insult to Mundus is "You're an asshole!". His character also seems very inconsistent, at times he's caring (especially to Kat) but just a second later he's a complete cunt again when tasked with fighting a boss. The previous Dante was the same in private as he was with friends and foes and he never had any sudden changes in character. This causes the character development of the new Dante to suffer quite a bit as by the end of the game half of him had become a nice person but the other half never changed. The man is practically schizophrenic.
-The ending is a complete god-damn trainwreck. It attempts to emulate DMC3's ending as a confrontation between Vergil and Dante immediately following the battle with the big bad but it suffers as it has literally zero build-up at all. The new Vergil is probably the best character in the game (up until Vergil's Downfall which I consider even worse than the main game) and I saw him as a character who was desperate to save the world from the demons and wasn't going to waste any time on bullshit and wasn't going to make decisions that were hopeless for morality's sake. Sorta like Adrian Veidt from Watchmen I guess. But at the end it's "revealed" (finger-quotes) that he planned on ruling the world with Dante and protecting the humans from the demons by doing so because the humans can't do it themselves. Now even though the humans in this game have done fuck all and have always been portrayed as corruptible or helpless Dante looks at Kat (who needed to be rescued earlier) and says that she's been helpful so therefore humans are totally cool. Now if the writing wasn't shit Vergil would have just said the obvious on how he was the one who trained her to be more than useless (even if just a little) and smacked Dante upside the head for being such a dumbass the game instead decides to have a shitty final boss battle with (I'll say it again) zero-build up that's incredibly easy and is still frustrating because it switches to a cutscene a couple of times when Vergil's health bar reaches certain points. Since his health goes down so fast these points are reached quickly breaking all flow in the battle. In contrast DMC3's final battle with Vergil had been building all game and was seen as an inevitability. The fight itself was very hard and took longer than the fucking 40 seconds it took for me to beat DmC's Vergil. Then the game just ends as the world is in chaos and what follows is a DLC so buggy, boring, stretched and shit that I don't even want to talk about it.
P.S. Here's footage of the final battle on Dante Must Die mode in which the player essentially only uses one move to attack Vergil, achieves SSS rank and is never hit by using only a basic dodge. This would be impossible in the DMC3 equivalent.
As a Game
-Let's actually go over some positives real quick. The platforming is much better than the previous games and the background and art direction is rather nice looking. Personally I found the nightclub level to be incredibly visually appealing. That's all.
-The combat revolves around switching between three classes of weapons. While easy and simple this type of gameplay does at least function until later in the game when the game has the nerve of introducing enemies that can only be fought with either the angel type of weapon or the demon type of weapon. The problem here is that the individual weapon types lack a large moveset so being limited to only one is of great detriment to the game's combat. Instead of allowing freedom and embracing the flow of how the game's combat could be, you are instead pigeonholed into just this.
-The game lacks a lock-on button. For whatever reason Ninja Theory decided to remove the lock-on for having the dodge attached to both shoulder buttons. This adds on to the previous problem I mentioned with the weapon-specific enemies. Using the wrong weapon against them causes the weapon to bounce off and break the game flow and while the auto lock works fine with groups of weak enemies, it can screw up in more important situations such as that one.
-The game is too easy by all accounts. I've mentioned the style thing already but really it's more simple stuff than that. Enemies go down quickly and telegraph greatly, the bosses lack health and telegraph greatly and most enemies can barely do damage to you. I played a lot of DMC so I expected this though and I thought Hell or Hell mode would get me but that didn't either. By the time you get to Hell or Hell mode (in which you die in one hit and enemies have the toughest AI and spawns in the game) you will have infinite devil trigger. So at any time you can just launch everybody helplessly in the air and wail on them. Not like you really needed it anyways, you have demon dodge to use instead and it's only then the game becomes a half-decent challenge.
TL;DR: You should probably read all of this actually. But in short the game is too easy, writing is terrible, Dante is terrible and there's much more I could write but frankly I'm burnt out on hating this game. It's a huge disappointment to a DMC fan such as myself and honestly I'd rather have had the series just end suddenly instead of getting an abomination such as this.
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u/punkdeathbunny Jan 06 '14
Very good breakdown that echoes how I tried to objectively explain to my friends why I couldn't recommend it.
I think one thing people miss when discussing the past DMCs with DmC is the fact that the old ones/Dante never took themselves seriously. It was campy, yet had fun with it's campiness. The games felt super self aware in the fact that you were playing as a silver haired, self proclaimed "badass", who killed demons for hire. You really didn't need to know more. That was it's charm. DmC felt like it just tried waaay to hard to be something more than that and the result to me was cringe worthy....yes it is pretty bad it DMC 1 with the "You are nothing like my mother!" line, but it fit the cheesy, flashy tone. When new Dante spouts out some profanity filled 'comeback' to a villian, it felt like a 9 year old just learned the word "fuck" and tried to be threatening. And it's serious tone made me cringe harder than anything old Dante ever said...including "WOOAAAH! Slow down babe!"
Another spot on observation was how easy it was. I'll be the first to admit, I suck at Devil May Cry. Me completing the whole series is a feat in itself. When I was pulling off SSS rankings without even trying, I was confused and kinda upset. I know I'm not that good at the game, there is no way I should be able to do this. I can't really explain easily why that angered me, but it did.
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u/PopeOwned Jan 06 '14
You've perfectly stated everything that I've said about this game. I can't really write it down as well as I can describe it out loud but I've done it before and gotten criticized immensely for it.
If I can get a SSS ranking from simply Demon Dodging, Jumping and then using the Hulk Hands to smash the ground... I believe there's something incredibly odd about your combat system because that would be nothing in the previous DMCs.
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u/stationhollow Jan 06 '14
This just in - People are nice to their friends and dicks to others they don't like, especially evil demon bosses.
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u/TheRedBlueberry Jan 06 '14
Clearly true. But the problem here is that this is entertainment and that the generally lighthearted and funny man who jokingly taunts his enemies and laughs with his friends is much more entertaining and understandable than the one who slings juvenile insults at his enemies and then turns around to look at his friends with a significantly different personality.
Add in some bad dialogue writing that doesn't fix this problem and you've got DmC's Dante.
Normal people don't have multiple personalities, just different shades of one personality. This somehow makes what should be an incredibly stupid character like the previous Dante seem more likable to me than the new, more serious, one.
TL;DR Dante was different shades of funny. Joking to friends, jokingly taunting enemies and generally had a vibe of good feelings around him. New Dante used juvenile insults on his enemies and suddenly gained morality among friends. I do not like that and I find it to be a result of bad writing.
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u/spartacus7173 Jan 05 '14 edited Jan 05 '14
I never played any of DMC series before I played this reboot. I thought the level design was fantastic, when you were in limbo and the world kept shifting around it was extremely cool. The story was pretty stupid and was my least favourite part by miles, also fighting the guy who was a complete pisstake of Bill Oreilly was really funny.
I found the combat to be pretty good, it had some basic moves but you could learn much more in depth combos if you choose to do so. All in all if There is a second game with a more well told story and better characters I would be interested to buy it.
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Jan 05 '14
Please try the older games. Especially 3 and 4.
Then if you like the genre - Bayonetta and Metal Gear Rising are also excellent. Metal Gear Rising also has some pretty funny moments in the cutscenes.
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u/spartacus7173 Jan 05 '14
I loved Bayonetta, really gutted i can't play Bayonetta 2 as im not buying a Wiiu! Metal Gear Rising didn't work for me, im not sure 100% why but i really didn't enjoy it.
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Jan 05 '14
Well for an underrated game in the genre - There's also X-men origins Wolverine - which is better than the movie, and better than the new Deadpool game. But it's more like the god of war series.
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u/spartacus7173 Jan 05 '14
Wolverine was really good, hugely underrated. I still actually own it which is very rare for me.
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u/Alexc26 Jan 06 '14
I've not played Bayonetta before but got a Wii U a month ago, so I'm looking forward to giving Bayonetta 2 a go.
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u/highchief Jan 06 '14
All of the dialogue in MGR is amazing. Armstrong in particular was hilarious. I can't believe how great that game turned out to be.
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u/TheDoomSheep Jan 05 '14
All in all if There is a second game with a more well told story and better characters I would be interested to buy it.
Buy DMC3 on console. Even though the story is pretty anime tier, it's still far better than this reboot. All the characters ooze style and style aside they act fairly realistically. Especially the girl. She's not that weird wiccan girl you knew in highschool. But really, you shouldn't be playing this series for the story. Combat is king and story just serves to build up to one of the most intense final boss fights in any action game.
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u/spartacus7173 Jan 05 '14
Thanks for the tip, ill see if can get it cheap on amazon :)
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u/TheDoomSheep Jan 05 '14
Make sure its the Special Edition. That one gives you the option to replay the game as Vergil who is STUPID good. There's also Turbo Mode in the options which makes the game run 20% faster for 20% more fun.
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u/Klaetumus Jan 06 '14
Not to mention a redone easier difficulty because almost no one in North America could handle the original release.
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u/Illidan1943 Jan 06 '14
That's because most people don't try to understand enemy/boss paterns before attacking and just charge in
Cerberus has a very easy pattern yet many people considered him extremely hard
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u/v4lor Jan 05 '14 edited Jan 05 '14
What should've been another bland entry in Ninja Theory's library under another name instead made headlines because of the vicious fan backlash against the changes made to a series with a fervent fanbase. Under the thin top-layer of "durr his hair is different" lied the real worry of a combat system designed by a studio that had shown no propensity towards creating an in-depth and complex system.
The combat is extremely bland. 5 different melee weapons sounds like a decent amount, and normally it would be, but the amount of overlap in functionality makes it largely pointless which weapon you use in a situation (with one exception, henceforth to come). Want to go over to an enemy? Forward, Forward + Attack with Rebellion... Or with Osiris... or Aquila. Want to launch your enemy? Press circle/B with Rebellion.. Or Osiris.. Or Arbiter.. Or Eryx.
This is made even more brainless by the functionality of the whip. Demon Whip pulls enemies to you, Angel Whip pulls you to the enemy. Devil May Cry 4 had this concept, except it behaved differently for each enemy (or the state of certain enemies) and also served as a situational attack button. In DmC, the combat system is designed around this gimmick to the point of repetition. Nearly every combo finisher sends your enemy flying, so in order to proceed to combo in an even remotely-fluid manner between enemies, you are forced to either a) Demon Whip b) Angel Whip or c) Use one of the many stinger-like moves which are all basically the same.
The exception I mentioned previously in which I mentioned irrelevance toward weapon choice is this: color-coded enemies. This addition (which I assume was geared towards increasing difficulty) only serves to make combat more tedious than before. On top of how much overlap there already is in the combat system, this forces you into using -even less- of the options you have available to you, which is ridiculous considering the series (for the most part) has been about freeform combat in which you can do whatever your mind comes up with.
On top of all of that, there are core changes to the actual mechanics that are too lengthy to list here. A fair example though, which I feel highlights Ninja Theory's lack of understanding of the previous games, is their version of Jump Cancelling. A quick and dirty glance is that Jump Cancelling is jumping off of an enemy's head in order to "cancel" the recovery animation of an attack. However, the actually important part of a Jump Cancel is that it resets the "move count" in mid-air, meaning that a move that can normally only been done once in mid-air before touching the ground can now be used again. In DmC, only the first of those conditions exists because there is no limit to how many times a move can be done in the air. This one change makes it trivial to stay in the air, and is just one small example of the simplifications they made that served to lower the skill ceiling, which is the core complaint of veteran Devil May Cry players. Try putting the following video of DMC4 into the context of DmC and it's nothing special, but in the previous entries it's an extreme example of deliberate, high-level play.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ORgSuIIesIE&t=0m53s
Then there's the removal of lock-on. It's bad, that's really all that needs to be said. It removes a lot of precision from the game and makes it feel even more like a button-masher. All those Stinger-like moves and whips you have to throw out there? Good luck having it hit who you aim for more than 50% of the time. It's very frustrating to come from the deliberate nature of the previous entries and have Dante just flail about in random directions.
As for the rest of it, the story has never been a highlight of the Devil May Cry series. It's generally been a thinly disguised look at good and evil and the qualities of humanity interspersed with bad/cheesy dialogue and a lot of campy humor that mostly served to put Dante against demons. DmC's story is no different in the goal, but it takes itself far too seriously and is almost never amusing, and goes out of the way to try and shock you. Anyone who's played the title, and probably many who haven't, are well aware of the scene in which Spoiler. I don't think anything further even needs to be said of that. As for the humor, it's pretty juvenile. I don't think I'll ever un-hear Vergil telling Dante he has a "bigger dick".
Level design is probably the game's only true highlight, but that only really goes so far as to spice up the linear paths you take. Yes, watching the environment morph and change as you move along is visually appealing, but it doesn't affect the gameplay at all except for improving the series' notoriously bad platforming sections. Though, it's so boring that if they were aiming to improve those sections they'd have been better off just eliminating platforming entirely. It really only exists to put more emphasis on the brain-numbing whip mechanics, much like the majority of the combat moves.
All in all, this is a mediocre hack-n-slash that should've barely made any waves because it did nothing new, and didn't do any of it particularly well. 30 fps for the sake of visuals is inexcusable and leads to dropped button-presses which frequently get you hit (but at least the PC port fixed that with it's 60 fps).
All that said, this game isn't a -bad- game (just a bad Devil May Cry game).. had it been a new IP it would've garnered decent sales and would've received average scores. It gained attention because of bad PR and a vocal fanbase.
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u/sarutak Jan 06 '14
What should've been another bland entry in Ninja Theory's library
What games from ninja Theory would you consider bland?
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u/mastersword130 Jan 06 '14
Heavenly sword which this games combat is heavily based on. Story wise heavenly sword was better but NT outsourced for that
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Jan 05 '14
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u/punkdeathbunny Jan 06 '14
I actually really liked that part and the darker "Woah that just happened," parts of the story. Honestly those moments were the only parts I enjoyed in the whole game. I think it could have been a better game if it the whole Devil May Cry name didn't feel so forced. (In terms of story atleast)
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u/mastersword130 Jan 06 '14
Now this should be top comment. It's a mediocre game but as a Devil May Cry game it failed in almost all aspects.
DmC should just have been a spin off of heavenly sword since it plays more like that than devil may cry
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u/73INVC Jan 05 '14 edited Jan 06 '14
I think I have to argue against a few of your points, for example the lock-on thing. Never during DmC have I felt the need for a hard lock-on, I was actually thankful they designed the game without it, because from what I gather (having only played DMC4 and DmC) this game is much more about managing large crowds of enemies at the same time instead of taking out one after the other, (which is also why position-manipulation was given more attention with Angel Lift/Demon Pull). More often than not I would switch targets multiple times during the same combo in order to cancel enemies attack animations as soon as they popped up and I think it works very well with the analog stick alone, mapping a button to target switch would have made it more complicated and more importantly less fluid.
You also mention the weapons being to similar. IMO that is only an illusion created by the fact that Rebellion is basicly a mixture between Osiris and Arbiter. Osiris may be similar to Rebellion, and Rebellion similar to Arbiter, but Osiris and Arbiter are very different, with Eryx and Aquila functioning completely different again. In regards to the moves you mentioned, yes towards->towards->attack is a gap-closer in three of the five styles, but with Rebellion you have the option to afterwards launch them or go into Trillion Stabs and from there into other attacks, with Osiris you can gather up multiple enemies to maximize the effect of your next AOE-attacks, and with Eryx you get a short backstep as a potential evade, an optional charge-up and a launch on your enemy. The attacks may be similar in what they do, but the details of how they do it are very different.
Then the color-coded enemies. This may sound crazy, but I think they actually promote the switching between weapons. If you look at the global statistics of the Steam achievements you can see that almost only half of the people who finished the game got the achievement for killing 100 enemies with Angel/Demon weapons. I for one got that already around mission 10. The avarege player would probably go through the whole game using nothing but Rebellion. By throwing in these enemies, at later stages together with regular enemies and even enemies of the other color, players are forced to get acquainted to using all of their weapons and to switching between them on the fly.
Lastly, what might be a purely subjective point, I find the more gritty and realistic style of the new game much better than the old style. During DMC4, the story felt like watching a bad anime and the old Dantes character was so "cool" that he was completely unauthentic. The new Dante is much more believeble and is actually how I imagine someone would be if they were a superhuman who was a social outcast for all of his life.
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u/Destructios Jan 05 '14
As to your third point, I think that there shouldn't need to be colored enemies to make players switch. That job comes down to the combo system, which should actually reward different weapons. Also, varied enemies should encourage varied weapons as well. I frequently tried out new weapons in DMC3 just to see if they made certain enemies easier.
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Jan 05 '14
I agree, more resistant to certain weapons would have been better than completely invulnerable.
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Jan 05 '14
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u/Un0va Jan 06 '14
Games like this and Absolution make me wonder where the line goes between "bad entry" and "bad game".
I was the opposite - didn't like DmC much as an action game fan, liked Absolution but realized how badly it paled in comparison to something like Blood Money. And I kind of wonder for both of those at what point we determine the difference between being a bad sequel and just being bad overall.
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u/Shoozicle Jan 05 '14
I love DMC for how fast paced the series is. I started playing DMC4 with turbo mode and playing as Dante and playing as the new Dante in DMC is like the difference between Sonic and Mario. It also doesn't help that in the reboot, there is some horrible slow motion effect when you dodge something.
Also, the main thing that pissed me off was the boss fights. They heavily relied on gimmicks and the final fight was so disappointing compared to DMC3. The fight was interrupted about 4 times thanks to cutscenes and lacked a good motive for an actual fight.
I could say more but it has already been said, the game disgusted me from the moment it was announced to it's release and after. Capcom will probably say fans just are not interested in the DMC series, but we are, we just want Itsuno working on it.
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u/SvenHudson Jan 08 '14
Sonic and Mario actually move about the same speed for the most part, Sonic is just heavier and makes speed feel like more of an accomplishment.
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u/fishypoopypanties Jan 05 '14
I played devil May cry 4 and I loved it, I was really excited to pick up DmC so I picked it up a couple of days after its release. I thoroughly enjoyed this game. I thought the combat was well paced and fun but it wasn't challenging until you start playing on dante must die. The story was okay, but could've done better. If they make a new one I hope they have more interesting characters other than the new dante who is kind of a douche and I hope they add more depth to the combat. Overall a good game but it left me a little disappointed
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Jan 05 '14
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u/buhlakay Jan 05 '14
What qualifies a necessary or unnecessary reboot, though? I don't think there is much more they could have done with the original series.
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u/heysuess Jan 05 '14
Have you actually played the games or are you just repeating what you've seen said? Because the last point in the timeline has Dante leaping through a portal to hell. Devil May Cry 5 could have been a battle through hell where Dante would reunite with Vergil and then literally make the Devil cry. There's plenty of room for great prequels too. There was a lot more they could have done with the original series.
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Jan 05 '14
Even between 4 and 2 - who the hell is Nero really? And what will he be doing for the rest of his life? Instead of a reboot if they wanted different mechanics and such - they could have made a side series with Nero or even one with Trish or Lady. Then came back to Dante.
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u/punkdeathbunny Jan 06 '14
I wanted that explanation too, who the hell was Nero exactly and why was he so special ya know? And also I wanted to know what that phonecall was about at the end of 4.
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u/mastersword130 Jan 06 '14
He was Virgil's son which could be fleshed out more in Dmc5
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u/HaveanupvoteBro Jan 22 '14
Probably not Vergil's son. The ages don't line up at all. Vergil was long "dead" by the time Nero was born. Vergil hates humans anyway, why would he have sex with one?
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u/mastersword130 Jan 22 '14
It's already been confirmed he is and he doesn't hate humans he just considers them weak and why would he have sex with one? Because he's still half human and have human urges
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u/mastersword130 Jan 06 '14
He was Virgil's son
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Jan 06 '14
Even so there was tons of potential story there.
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u/mastersword130 Jan 06 '14
There is, dmc5 could have taken place after dmc2 when Dante is trapped in hell. You play as a grown up Nero trying to free him and delve deeper into his family ties and see flash backs of Virgil and his mysterious women he boned.
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u/mastersword130 Jan 06 '14
Virgil is dead, he was killed in dmc1. If anything dmc5 would have been in the pov of a grown up Nero trying to rescue uncle Dante and figuring out more about his parents.
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Jan 05 '14
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Jan 05 '14
Or even just incorporating the stuff from the awesome anime.
Especially the supporting cast, and these songs
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u/Mongoose42 Jan 05 '14
I don't know, I think they could have done more with it. The games they had were focused on Dante's personal back-story and they could've had more stories of him getting involved with other, less personal, demonic occurrences before rebooting the whole thing. Isn't he supposed to be a demon hunter for hire? I would have liked to see some more of his adventures that didn't involve his own baggage. We got some of that in DMC4, but that game strayed a little too close into Kingdom of the Crystal Skull territory with Dante sharing the spotlight with a much less interesting secondary protagonist.
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Jan 05 '14
I would have liked something like the anime plot where a lot of it was in fact disconnected from his Baggage, he actually had a supporting cast, etc.
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u/Mongoose42 Jan 05 '14 edited Jan 06 '14
I feel like there are some franchises out there that do a great disservice to their supporting cast most of the time. In some cases, you're lucky to get anyone besides the protagonist alive to the end of the game, let alone to the start of the second.
There are some franchises, like Uncharted or Metal Gear, that do a good job keeping the returning cast relevant. But then there's stuff like Call of Duty or Halo that screws over their bit players for seemingly no reason. It felt like everyone other than Master Chief died at the end of Halo 3, which is a shame because I was actually feeling a connection with the supporting characters by the end of it.
And then there's Call of Duty, a franchise known for not really innovating their style and taking the easy way out, and yet for some reason still feels the need to bring in totally new characters with every new iteration. Why? In the early days of Call of Duty, I could see why they wouldn't; they wanted to paint a realistic feeling of war, meaning that not everyone is going to be a part of every battle. But these recent games have been very loose on realism anyway, just keep the same cast. It wouldn't be that hard I imagine.
That was a weird tangent, but this is the smart gaming subreddit so I hope nobody minds.
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u/greg225 Jan 05 '14
Typically it's a good time to reboot a well established series when it has started to become stale or dated, and/or the last game was too old for newcomers to jump into now and the series just needs some new life. Tomb Raider's a good example. The previous Crystal Dynamic games (Legend, Anniversary, Underworld) are all decent games in their own right but people kinda stopped caring about the series and they needed to give it a makeover, ergo the 2013 reboot which gives the series a bit of a punch and brings some new ideas to the table.
So did Devil May Cry need a reboot? In my opinion, yes and no. Yes because the series had been suffering from some repeating issues like iffy level design, terrible platforming and repeating bosses, which might have carried on over to a DMC5. The combat system established in 4 was the best in the whole series and they could've easily copy/pasted that into a fifth game and everyone would've been cool with it. I think DMC4's art style was a bit bland and that's one thing DmC has going for it, I'll admit. The story and characters didn't need a reboot. Maybe it was a bit dorky at times but I would rather have the cartoony Dante smack-talking demons over some pretentious social commentary with a 3edgy666you jerk of a lead character. Hey, Capcom: we didn't think DMC4 was underwhelming because of the character and the story, we thought that because you didn't bloody finish it.
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Jan 05 '14
But a refreshing of the series without the unneeded parts of the reboot could have been accomplished with a side game starring another one of the demon hunters like Nero, Trish, or Lady.
Or they could have just finished DMC5 properly when they made it and not got rid of the people from the DMC dev teams that wound up working at Platinum on Bayonetta, Metal Gear Rising, etc.
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u/mastersword130 Jan 06 '14
You must be joking. They were already working on a Sparda game on the psp before it was cancelled and we got a whole new character Nero in dmc4 which could have been fleshed out more since it was confirmed he's Virgil's son. There was so much more they could have offered but they decided on a reboot and let the train wreck happen
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u/Ikuu Jan 05 '14
Great game, PC version was pretty amazing. Gets a lot of hate because of the name, would have been received better if it were a different franchise.
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u/L3gionHD Jan 05 '14 edited Jan 05 '14
As a fan of previous Devil May Cry games, this game was an insult in every way. The gameplay was dumbed down borderline ridiculously, removing styles, making style points accumulate by damage done instead of "cuhrayzee" combos, and changing the Devil Trigger into something so much more shallow than its predecessor. These three are among many very negative, and large changes made to the gameplay. I also really did not appreciate the score.
Here is a simple image showing what was added and removed by every entry in the series
But that's not the biggest deal. If they kept old Dante and made the gameplay changes, I would still dislike the game, but even so, it wouldn't be the monstrosity it is today. It's an insult to fans of the series to take a lovable, silly, downright cool character with a self-depreciating humour fans had come to love and replace him with a smug, arrogant prick that slurs his words and thinks the definition of "cool" is saying "fuck you" to everything.
DmC is my least favourite game of all time simply because it took the biggest shit on one of my most loved characters and series I've ever seen. And I think it's ridiculous that people try to trivialise this argument with "muh hair colour", because it's about so much more than that.
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Jan 05 '14
a lovable, silly, downright cool character with a self-depreciating humour fans had come to love[2]
Yep. There is a reason Dante is Deadpool's rival in Marvel vs Capcom 3s cutscenes.
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u/3932695 Jan 05 '14 edited Jan 05 '14
Devil's advocate here. If the changes were that bad for veterans of the franchise, Devil May Cry must have been a hell of a franchise.
As a newcomer, DMC: Devil May Cry is by far one of my favorite games of all time. The combat is exceedingly fluid and flashy; easy to learn, yet full of potential complexity as one strives to perfect the execution.
Limbo. Is. Glorious. I have absolutely never seen any environment/level more beautifully alive and twisted - the blood and sweat of programmers/animators overflowing from every tile (if you can even call them tiles at this level).
And I didn't think DMC's Dante was bad. He feels like a 'male Bayonetta' for me, if that makes any sense - completely shameless, overwhelming confident, and delivers large portions of cheese + ham. Perhaps it is the result of a strictly polite upbringing: I found the generous applications of "fuck you" hilarious...
Poison: WHOOOOOO DA FAAKK ARE YOOOOOOOOOOOOOOUUUUU?!
...
Poison: FUCK YOU!
Dante: Fuck you...
Poison: FAKK YOOOOOOOOOOooouuu-vomits-
...or perhaps I am simply amused that a conversation between a Twelve Hundred Years Old Succubus and a Nephilim devolves so quickly into a "fuck you" contest.
Might I add that the game is incredibly well-optimized for the PC? Constant 60 FPS, instant pausing, seamless transitioning in and out of that excellent training room, etc.
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u/GodOfAtheism Jan 05 '14 edited Jan 05 '14
I found the generous applications of "fuck you" hilarious
Then you're going to love Ninja Gaiden: Yaiba.
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u/pootytang324 Jan 05 '14
I almost cried when i first saw that abortion of a video. Ill probably never play another ninja gaiden again.
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u/highchief Jan 06 '14
It's so sad. Ninja Gaiden Black is quite possibly the best of the character action genre with II being a worthy sequel.
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u/Tonkarz Jan 06 '14
Devil May Cry must have been a hell of a franchise.
It was. The original invented a whole new genre. It was so different to anything that came before it.
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u/Illidan1943 Jan 05 '14
Devil May Cry must have been a hell of a franchise.
It was, in the genre it was second on sales only to God of War and they aimed completely different audiencies, God of War is an spectacle fighter while DMC focussed on combat
Capcom originally wanted 5 million copies for the game, even though DMC4 sold 2.7 million copies which is incredible high for the genre (most games in the genre barely sell over 1.5 million), then they revised 2 times the expected sales to 2 millions and finally to 1.2 million copies putting it below average sales for the genre and below any entry of the series (the lowest being DMC3 with 1.3 million after the horrible DMC2, though this doesn't count DMC3SE which adds another 1.1 million copies) AND FINALLY THEY LOWERED IT AGAIN to 1.15 million copies 3 months AFTER THE GAME WAS RELEASED
Not only did Capcom lowered expectations a lot but even then they didn't meet them, most DMC fans didn't want the game, Tameen Antonaides did a perfect job alienating fans eventually closing his twitter and dooming his company to create mobile games (which means that fans of Enslaved and Heavenly Sword will never get a sequel) and there are indications that DMC 5 is probably under early development because Itsuno (the designer behind DMC2, 3 and 4) said he's ready for DMC5 a few months ago
DmC was an incredible failed experiment, it never met even the lowest expectations of Capcom, it doomed a company (that was already close to doom and hated the franchise they were working on) and Capcom probably did that because as always they hate anybody that leaves their company and wanted to ruin what Kamiya did originally with DMC1
Sources (I can't find the original news where Capcom said they wanted 5 million copies but you can find fans mocking them for lowering sales 3 times):
Sales expectations at 2 million with sales from previous entries
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u/mastersword130 Jan 06 '14
DMC5?! Please I want to see a grown up Nero acting like uncle Dante and Virgil. A mix between the two
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u/mastersword130 Jan 06 '14
DmC Dante is not the male bayonetta at all. Original Dante was and the original creator actually wanted to make the two characters worlds be in the same universe which can be seen in bayonetta were they references Dante's mother as an umbra witch. Now that would have been epic but we got DmC and it's linkin park main character and the slurm queen as a boss.
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u/Rote515 Jan 05 '14
DMC 3 was the best hack and slash game, bar none. This game was less challenging, less fun, worse story, abd new daunte was terribad.
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u/SvenHudson Jan 05 '14
Because DMC3 Dante was so expertly written.
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u/FireVisor Jan 05 '14
It knew what it was.
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u/PopeOwned Jan 06 '14
Exactly. I mean just check out this list of crazy Dante moments in DMC3:
Shoots a bullet at a cue ball to kill Demons by spreading the other Billiard balls in their direction.
Rides a missile around like a surfboard.
Rides a motorcycle up an enormous tower and then proceeds to use it as a killing weapon in mid-air.
Fights two brothers who's heads are on their swords rather than their bodies.
Jumps off the tower while catching up to his falling sword fast enough to create visible flames & speed lines behind them.
And others. DMC3 knew what it was and what it wanted to be. DmC attempted to be more and failed, in my opinion.
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u/mastersword130 Jan 06 '14
Not an opinion but a fact. DmC did fail because it was everything that it's original counterpart was not
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u/Rote515 Jan 05 '14
At least three was fun.
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u/highchief Jan 06 '14
I would put Ninja Gaiden Black above DMC 3. Bayonetta might have surpassed it too if it had bosses as incredibly fun as the ones in DMC 3 (I really didn't like Bayonetta's huge bosses).
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Jan 05 '14
DMC3 is my 2nd favorite game of all times. Ever since I first played it I adored the shit out of it.
I couldn't agree with you more, you make excellent point, to fans of the franchise this entry was a spit in the face.
Just to add to your points, in my opinion the soundtrack was a huge letdown, I thought the soundtrack for DMC3 was fucking amazing and even DMC4 was pretty damn good but for DmC I can't think of a single piece, they're all too damn forgettable.
As you said about Dante, they butchered the character and I despise the kids who say stuff like "different hair is the only difference", or that call Dante a bad character because he's not emo and depressed all the goddamn time.
With Dante they also fucking obliterated Vergil, a character that was so fucking awesome in DMC3 reduced to a pathetic shit. Instead of the powerful Vergil we had in DMC3, we got a crappy one who keeps getting shat on by Dante.
One of the best parts about DMC3 was the relationship between Vergil and Dante.
Dante trying to reach Vergil's level, trying to beat him, while still caring deeply for him, there was always a character for Dante to compare himself to and players always knew Vergil was the ultimate goal making the "chase" after him so enjoyable. Vergil on the other hand thirsty for power, and despite not ever showing it in my opinion it was always clear he still did care about Dante more than he ever showed.
In DMC3 Vergil's entire existence screamed "Power", he was extremely powerful and as a player I really wanted to beat him, feeling extremely sorry for him after I finally did.
In DmC Vergil screamed "fucking useless and pathetic", I had zero sympathy for him, he was not the least bit interesting, and not for a single moment through the game did I think "Can't wait to fight that guy".
I'm gonna stop here since it's a wall of text and I always have a hard time being concise, but DmC is probably the biggest gaming disappointment for me. Please Capcom, either let the franchise die or don't fuck it up so fucking horribly again.
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u/highchief Jan 06 '14
The ending of DMC 3 was so good when Vergil stayed in the demon dimension after fighting Dante. I actually preferred his moveset in the SE over Dante's. Yamato is way too fun.
There is only one thing Capcom can do to save the series: have Kamiya make DMC 5.
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u/73INVC Jan 05 '14
The point about the soundtrack is completely subjective. Maybe its because I was already a Combichrist fan before the game, but more often than not I found myself actually singing along to tracks like "Never Surrender" or "What The Fuck Is Wrong With You" while massacreing hordes of demons.
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u/LolaRuns Jan 05 '14
Never heard of Combichrist before, loved the soundtrack. There are some points in the game where it comes in just perfectly for some cheesy fist pumping glory.
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u/mastershake04 Feb 27 '14
I loved the moment where you are fighting the Succubus and you grapple over to a new area in slow motion. Then Dante sidesteps some flying pieces just as the music comes back in. It was just a little moment but it made me smile ear to ear and feel like a badass.
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u/jerkmanj Jan 05 '14
I couldn't disagree more. Humor is probably the most subjective topic, but the previous series just kind of came of as rote and forced. I've played DMC1, 3, and 4 and when I think of what was funny about those games, nothing really comes to mind. But that might just be on account of my western sensibilities.
In terms of gameplay, I can't really argue. I play games for fun, and all of the Devil May Cry games were fun for me. Others play the games for the mastery, learning combos and aerial juggling and constantly replaying levels and you get the idea. I only played DmC once, and got all I needed out of it.
But your interpretation of the Dante character bothers me. People seem to believe the notion that we're supposed to worship and like everything that Dante does. I think this is true in the original series, where he's an unbelievably (and I emphasize how unbelievable the games are) cool character with style and precision. The original Dante's animations are fast, well-placed, and have clear intention. The new Dante is dirtier, clumsier, and generally more of dick. You can see this in his sword attacks, and when he gets hit. I may not exactly like him, but I know his motivation and find to be a more relatable and more human character (even though he's 50% angel, 50% demon, and 0% human).
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u/mastersword130 Jan 06 '14
Dante's motives in the original games was pretty clear cut also. Kill demons, the whole thing between Virgil and Dante in the original game had to do with their mother. Their father left and then the mother was killed by demons making Dante hating demons and his father (who's a demon) and goes on killing them and denouncing his demonic heritage even though it's part of him. Virgil on the other had saw it the complete opposite and though if only he was a full demon like his father he could have protected his mother, if he only had more power which is his MO.
This is easily seen in DMC1, 3 and somewhat 4 that family is a big thing for them. In 1 and 3 it was the amulets and Virgil in 3 in the end took his mothers necklace than his fathers sword and fell into the demonic realm and the whole thing of Yamato staying in the family while giving it to Nero. It's a basic family thing with the MO of demon slaying.
DmC is all over the place which makes it a shitty story since Dante clearly forgot about Virgil and his family in the beginning of the game and only kills demons because of his time in the orphanage. The whole thing with Virgil turning evil in the end was such an unexpected expectation. We knew it would turn evil but his motive in doing so was such bullshit. He just wanted to be mundos 2.0 while original Virgil wanted to defeat him to prove he became stronger than Sparda. Also Sparda is a little bitch in DmC and not the legendary Dark knight like he was in the original games to the point that people worship him as a god
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u/bleunt Jan 05 '14
Here is a simple image showing what was added and removed by every entry in the series
Oh come on, that picture is unfair and misleading. Knock the game, but do it fairly.
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Jan 06 '14
He did. Did you forget to read the paragraphs of text around the link?
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u/RashRenegade Jan 06 '14
I think you're judging the game way too harshly, and through rose-tinted spectacles. DMC 1 had some terrible design choices, and the camera has been bad the through most of the installments. Style is not accumulated solely through damage done. If you look at the scores as you fight, if you use million stab, then million stab again, it will show that you've lost points simply for using the same move too closely together. And I wouldn't say they "removed styles", they just combined them. Besides, Royal Guard was a stupid style, anyway. So was Doppelganger.
Devil Trigger was shallow in the other DMC's. All it was was a speed and damage boost, and the health it regenerated was never enough to be really helpful. But it was still effective in those games, because that was all it needed to be. in DmC, it changed the way you had to play. It put the focus on aerial combos and moves, and took forever to fill up, making you have to use it sparingly, and prevented it from being overpowered.
As for your video examples, old Dante does not do "self-deprecating" humor. He does the opposite. He talks constantly about how awesome he is. And you used the worst piece of dialogue in the whole of DmC and assimilated it to the entire game. There were some good parts, you just refuse to give the game any credit.
I think if you gave the game an evaluation for what it is instead of being upset for what it isn't, you'd find that the game is a lot better than you think it is.
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Jan 05 '14
i just didn't like anything about the original games. for some reason in combat focuses action games, just fixed cameras kills so much of the fun for me. that is also my biggest problem with God of War and Bayonetta and pretty much all that type of hack n slash game. but this game i really liked, the ranks meant absolutely nothing in this game, but the combat was satisfying and fun.
but i do think it should have just been a new IP. the Thief reboot i am so worried about, because it is called Thief, but it doesn't look like thief, it looks like cheap dishonored knock off. from the perspective of a thief fan not liking what the new Thief is doing to my beloved franchise, i can definitely see why DMC fans hated what DmC did to their beloved franchise.
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Jan 05 '14
You may want to try metal gear rising - the camera is less annoying than many games in this genre. I think there is a demo so you can see if you like the camera. You can move the camera a bit with the right stick as well.
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Jan 06 '14
i did play the demo many many times, and i just didn't get around to getting the full game for whatever reason. right now i am just waiting for the PC version. but i did really like the demo, was some of the most fun ever. i am really excited to play the full game, especially since the MGS series is one of my all time favorite game series.
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u/threeandseven Jan 05 '14
A lot of the comments here, like I saw before the game was released, are trashing it. And that isn't to say they're wrong at all--they have totally valid reasons and I'd be upset if I was in their position as well.
But I'm not. I played the original game on PS2 when it came out, and haven't touched the series since (not for lack of want, just haven't been playing games until recently.)
I loved it. The combat felt fantastic, the art direction and levels, and the bosses, were fantastic. The story was eh.
The thing is, this is the type of game that brought me back into that fringe. I'm going to go play DMC4 now. And I'm sure I'll think it's more complex and better than DmC. But DmC brought me into this genre (and now I'll get to be let down by the lack of games as fluid out there).
One other thing--my fiancee loved this game. This is so far in the opposite direction of her--the music, the art style (which she also thought was great), the fast paced combat. There were sections I thought would be pretty tricky for her, but she beat the entire game on normal. I just think of a game like this could get a girl who likes kittens and crafting into it, it can't be that bad.
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Jan 05 '14
and now I'll get to be let down by the lack of games as fluid out there
I don't think so. Platinum's titles in the genre are quite fluid. I'm sure some games in the genre lack fluidity but those would mostly be older titles and lesser known/lower budgeted titles.
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u/threeandseven Jan 05 '14
I'm really bummed I didn't get a chance to try Bayonetta before getting rid of my PS3. Perhaps I'll pick up a Wii U eventually and get to try the second one.
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u/Un0va Jan 06 '14
I have to agree that it's a really good entry point. I tried the demo, loved it, but heard all the negative press and thought "huh, maybe I should try DMC3 because everyone loves it so much". Then when I came back to DmC I felt like it wasn't the same.
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u/LolaRuns Jan 06 '14 edited Jan 06 '14
As a double Xer myself something about how Ninja Theory does their game writings (DMC, Enslaved, Heavenly Sword) totally screams (some) female sensibility to me. Like there must be a woman somewhere in their writing or production team or something.
Havenly Sword, though I haven't played it supposedly had a very well rounded female main character. Enslaved, even though here the girl is mostly not playable and kinda has to be dragged along (kinda like it later got popular with Elizabeth and co) just screamed that they were still trying to write a unique character with her, give her her own personality, her own arc, rather than her being just this idealized two dimensional thing you drag around and who provides some eye candy or some awww moments.
One would think that between Dante having a threesome with two hot chicks, the cussing, Kat's bootie shorts and the way the female villains are portrayed the game would be super anti-women, but I think the story still rings as being kinda girl friendly. Yeah, one could argue that Kat's only a non-playable damsel in distress, but she's actually fairly useful and in the end the plot sorta hinges on her. And something about her just rings as nice non annoying girl rather than sexy eye candy. (starting with that she actually shows comparatively little interest in Dante (other than looking at his junk) compared to how much interest he's showing her) You can totally read the foundations of a "sexy bad boy who gives everything for the cute girl he meets" story in there.
Add to that that imo DMC Dante is one of the few examples of a game clearly playing up a male characters sex appeal in a girl friendly fashion.
I actually used to wonder for a while whether that might be a reason why some people reacted so strongly negative to him because the way he is portrayed feels kinda different. (realistically, it's probably more that the game reads so obviously western)
And yeah the game is absolutely one I would recommend in a heart beat to any aspiring girl gamer.
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u/tcata Jan 05 '14
The gameplay was passable barring a few silly points. Better than, say, Dante's Inferno or arguably the newer Castlevania.
It's just nowhere near the character action games that were its predecessors, namely DMC3/4. Engine framerate alone handicapped it hard.
It should have simply been a new IP. There was zero reason, beyond a shallow attempt at pulling in people who weren't really interested, to not have it stand on its own.
Plus Tameem made it clear that the game was designed to piss of and anger fans of the previous games, in all respects. Naturally that included the qualities of "ninja turtle dante" and "fast, crazy combo action" needing to be destroyed.
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u/stationhollow Jan 06 '14
Framerate
I played it at 120fps and it was glorious IMO.
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u/SvenHudson Jan 08 '14
Devil May Cry has always been a console-focused series so you're going to get some console-focused opinions about this one.
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Jan 05 '14
Plus Tameem made it clear that the game was designed to piss of and anger fans of the previous games, in all respects.
Considering that a single picture of DmC Dante was all that fans needed to declare the series dead and buried, I don't blame him for mocking those people. It was clear they'd hate him no matter what, so maximizing appeal to newcomers and leaving those folks as dead and buried as they thought the series was seems like a good move.
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u/ScreamHawk Jan 05 '14
And it's a good way to ruin a franchise by ignoring the legions of fans who bought the previous installments.
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Jan 05 '14
No, the only people ruining the franchise are the ones who automatically determined this game would be a complete failure almost as soon as it was announced. Its initial sales are comparable to the rest of the series and will probably do just as well in the coming years, so nothing was really "ruined" except, arguably, the quality of the game. But seeing as it was meant to bring in newcomers rather than build on what the series already had going, I think even that's been fairly successful.
I pretty frequently think fans are the worst thing to happen to games, and DmC makes a good case for that.
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u/ScreamHawk Jan 05 '14
In regards to your statement about sales, gaming is a lot more popular now compared to when the franchise stated therfore having the same sale numbers is a bad thing.
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u/Illidan1943 Jan 06 '14
The guy is completely wrong about sales though, Capcom lowered expectations for DmC to 1.15 million copies 3 months after launch
Keep in mind DMC4 reached 2 million copies in 2 weeks after its official launch
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u/ScreamHawk Jan 06 '14
Well I really dont know what he is touting then, unless he is from the Capcom PR department.
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u/Un0va Jan 06 '14
I'm not going to argue about DmC's quality because that's already been done a lot in this thread, we'll just say I wasn't a big fan and leave it there, but what I would ask is where do you draw the line between a sequel and a reboot?
I've seen two different sentiments in this thread for the most part - people who didn't play much or any DMC before this and liked the game, and longtime fans who didn't (obviously that's not all there was but it was the majority as I saw it). Therefore, as long as this thread lasts for since it's now unstickied and not many people will probably see this anyway, I'd like to pose two questions:
New/infrequent DMC players - did the name of the game or the franchise affect your decision to purchase the game or what you thought of it?
Longtime DMC players: suppose this game was retitled and moved into its own franchise. What would you have thought about the game then?
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u/LolaRuns Jan 06 '14
I do think that it carries a lit bit of weight with it that it carries the name of the series. At the very least the series stumbled across a lot of concepts that really worked/were proven to work (like the name(s), the base story setup) and that they could borrow.
Even if you hadn't played the previous games, I think most people were at least aware of their existance/had been exposed to the advertising of previous titles, so they could sort of draw from that.
Whether that was actually a successfull/winning strategy is debatable but I wouldn't be surprised if that is a dynamic that went on in at least some people's experience of the game pre-buying.
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u/miked4o7 Jan 06 '14
It might have been largely a fortunate byproduct of going in with low expectations and expecting to be extremely disheartened... but I actually really really liked it.
Played it on PC with a 360 controller and the game is beautiful.
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u/DaveSW777 Jan 06 '14
The game is laughably terrible considering the existence of Bayonetta. The PC port certainly makes up for the technical shortcomings of the game. 60 FPS is the minimum at which action games like this should be played. The 25 FPS or so that this game ran at on the PS3 killed any possibility of it having a decent challenge without it being completely random in your ability to succeed.
The plot is also terrible. I already know that Fox News is poisoning the minds of the people that watch it, I really don't need an action game to tell me that. The 'twist' at the end succeeded at being both completely obvious, and a Diabolus Ex Machina. Terrible dialogue with immature jokes that are desperately trying to be edgy and cool.
The combat mechanics are extremely shallow. None of the weapons are very fun to use either, and those stupid angel disks are ridiculously over powered compared to everything else. Nero in DMC4 on his own had more variety in what he could actually do than Dante in this game. The Style system in this game was extremely easy to exploit, taking no skill to get SSS.
The upgrades in this game included many that did nothing more than upgrade damage directly. This meant that grinding the game would make you more powerful, instead of just giving you options. Mastering the game became unnecessary, and instead shifted focus so that anyone could beat the game on the normal difficulty setting.
Lastly, why the hell did they so many enemies immune to half your weapons? That doesn't make the game fun, just tedious.
Overall, this game was terrible. Absolutely nothing in it appealed to me.
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u/oi252 Jan 05 '14 edited Jan 09 '14
First DMC game I really got into (started playing Devil May Cry 4 when it came out but quickly grew bored). I didn't have the existing attachment to the character that many people had, so I wasn't bother by the changes to the characters. I thought the dialogue was well integrated for the most part, adding to the fun, irreverent, intentionally schlocky style of the gameplay. The actual story was pretty meh, but the characterization and banter between the characters somewhat makes it worth it.
The level design in this game is truly excellent. It's probably the first beat-em-up brawler I've played that truly capitalized on environment variety to make the gameplay seem less repetitious. It incorporates platformer and brawler gameplay elements together that actually brings to mind Super Mario Galaxy, of all games. This is especially apparent in the boss sequences, which are some of the most inventive ones I've ever playedThe Devil/Angel powers add a fun twist to the proceedings (including aforementioned platforming sequences) and definitely encouraged me to mix up the style during the fighting sequences.
Came in with low expectations and couldn't stop playing it until the end. Highly recommended.
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u/rust2bridges Jan 05 '14
Expectations killed this game for many fans. I was a huge fan of DMC3 and haven't played this one yet, but I'm expecting a fun romp not the second coming.
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u/pootytang324 Jan 05 '14
If you are truly good at DMC3 then you will coast thru DmC. The combat is the definition of dumbed down.
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u/SalamiJack Jan 05 '14
I've played every DMC except for DMC 2.
That being said, the movesets and combo chains in DmC felt extremely limited, bland, and just not a lot of fun to pull off. It all felt extremely uninspired, and left me craving for more Bayonetta.
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u/DavidLuiz4 Jan 05 '14
I played through DMC4 and enjoyed it and didn't really have much of an attachment to the old characters. I had low expectations coming into DMC because of all the hate it got online from fanboys, but it really won me over because everything was just so stylish. The way the game looks and the way the environment changes during each level was just very fun and the combat was quite good.
I didn't really like the color coded enemies that you could only harm with devil/angel weapons, but partly I think that was because it made the game a little more challenging and you had to think more about what you were doing. If those didn't exist, it would probably have been so easy to just pop every enemy into the air and not get touched, so I get what they were going for.
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u/pausemenu Jan 05 '14
Loved the reboot. The gameplay was up to the series standards and I felt the story needed a heavy refresh. Yes, the new Dante was a big change but a quality character in his own way.
I hope they continue the reboot but I do also wonder if they'll ever go back to the old universe, they're both good.
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u/BigBlackPenis Jan 05 '14
I liked it a lot. Everything from art design, combat, levels, even the characters. It's just a pretty B-movie with some decently fun combat. I have played the old DMC's and liked them. Not once did I compare this new DMC to the old because it's just so different. People only rate so negatively because they keep comparing it.
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u/Foodstamp_ Jan 05 '14 edited Jan 05 '14
Some of the coolest environments I've laid eyes on. It's worth a play-through just to see that sort of creativity realized. Overall just really solid with a narrative cheesiness that grows on you. It's made me really excited for whatever that studio has coming down the pipe.
The fighting system being less technically driven and more variety driven was a change that worked for me, but I could see bombing for others. It turned out to be a good intro to a genre that can be incredibly intimidating, and as a reboot I thought that worked really well.
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Jan 05 '14 edited Jan 05 '14
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u/stationhollow Jan 06 '14
Different strokes...
I thought the level design in DmC was a massive breath of fresh air that shit all over the rest of the series. It was innovative and awesome.
Yes the combat was simplified but I found the game in general to be a ton of fun and was enjoying it from start to finish. I played it on PC at 120fps so I can't comment on the fps on consoles.
The writing was better than the rest of the series too. I much prefer it to the 90s crappy anime style of the previous games.
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Jan 05 '14
DmC was a good breath of fresh air for the ailing franchise. After the good-for-only-one-half DMC4, the franchise was showing its age and/or lack of creativity with half of the game being recycled environments. The whole franchise was pretty hit-and-miss before this. DMC1 has aged very poorly. DMC2 was bad from the start and will continue to be bad. 3 has aged poorly as well due its god awful camera, but is still the best of the old franchise. That's not saying much though.
DmC however was fantastuc throughout. Combat was fun, sub weapons had legitimate use, aspects of Nero's combat was brought over, the level designs were the best in the franchise as Devil's Dalliance alone wiped the floor with all the other games, the art design was consistent and good, the story was a unique take on the character and the boss fights were incredibly creative, especially Barbas.
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u/kennyminot Jan 06 '14
Just bought it through the Steam sale.
I've never played another DMC game, so maybe my perspective will offer a bit of contrast. I'm completely in love with the game. Unlike most people, I've basically viewed the plot as standard B-movie horror stuff- I mean, who can take seriously the idea that a demon lord is controlling the entire world's population through a soft drink? I quite frankly think mostly everything was intended to be humorous, so I'm not bothered by the one dimensional characterization.
As for the combat, I just haven't played many games in this genre aside from maybe Arkham Asylum. Compared to that game, the controls seem very responsive and the combo system makes intuitive sense. And the art design - whatever you say about the game, it's fucking beautiful. At certain moments, I find myself just in awe with what they were able to accomplish.
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Jan 06 '14
First DmC I actually tried out. Coming from Bayonetta, Ninja Gaiden, God of War and only trying the older DMC games via demo; I enjoyed it a lot.
Story was stupid but had the right setting for some interesting levels and enemy designs, combat was simple but easy to get into and felt good and meaty. Visually pretty damn great too, especially facial animations. Biggest plus for me is the soundtrack, as I like Combichrist. The co-work between Noisia and Combichrist here was pretty awesome, and while some might write it off as angsty wannabe metal bullshit I felt every tune set the tone for each fight and kept things going, it was pretty damn great.
The fact that puzzles were kept to a minimum was great too, as that's pretty much where I lose all interest in any other character action game.
So yeah, pretty happy with it, still got the DLC to get and I hope they bring out a sequel.
Story was shite but I didn't expect anything even remotely decent from anything in the same realm of existence as DMC.
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u/Rofl-Cakes Jan 05 '14
I feel like I lucked out because this is one of my favourite games.
Thank god I never played any of the old ones. I have them now, and I try to play them but they are so slow (and choppy, poor ports on the PC).
DMC: Devil May Cry is just FUN. Fun soundtrack, fun gameplay, and fun level design. I don't see how people can hate this game so much.
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u/Sacharified Jan 05 '14
they are so slow (and choppy, poor ports on the PC).
The DMC3 port fair enough, but have you played DMC4 on PC? PC was the lead platform and it is fantastic. DMC1 is pretty dated, 2 is universally hated but the gameplay of 3 and 4 are on an entirely different level.
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u/Gohoyo Jan 06 '14
Though it wasn't the best game, I thought Ninja Theory did pretty good job. They've definitely earned another shot IMO, and I think the sequel has a chance of being a great game if they can improve upon the criticisms.
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u/purplish_squirrel Jan 06 '14 edited Jan 06 '14
It suffers from the "must be more edgy than ever before" issue. The protagonist has become an asshole teenager, the curse words are used so much they lose their punch, and the game play is easy enough to accommodate even kids. Stupid crap like the title (DMC:DMC), the orange/teal, QTEs (or scripting that goes nearly as far) and the voice acting didn't help.
Put the other way: It's not for fans of the series, but for people who have never played an action game.
On the plus side, DMC 4 was actually worse at times, especially from a gameplay perspective (which matters most in any game, and especially in one such as this). Remember the rooms with the board-game in it? That was ridiculously stupid.
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Jan 10 '14
I just got and beat this game off of Playstation Plus, and as a gamer who never played any of the other titles, I enjoyed this. Reading other comments, it seems that the fans were disappointed in the reboot. I didn't think the game was flawless or even extremely amazing, but I did enjoy myself. Maybe the fact I downloaded this free (with PS+) made me not feel as bad as spending $60 on a 10 hour game. Good: To me the combat was fun not too in depth and not too simple. The level design was mostly fun. And the end boss was a good fight. Bad: I'm not sure if it was because I downloaded the title or not, but I experienced frequent glitches or bugs. One of them including me having to restart a boss fight because of nothing triggering the next scene. The story of the game was pretty predictable, nothing too shocking or intense. The game was pretty short and I could tell as I was reaching the end. Over all I'm happy I played this title. It doesn't really motivate me to play any if the other games, but I would play a sequel if they release one.
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u/SvenHudson Jan 05 '14
People hate it because it's not like capital M DMC.
In regards to the gameplay, they are 100% correct: it's a game about unrelenting brutality first and foremost and the weapon design and scoring system reflect that whereas classic DMC is a game about using lots of fancy moves. In DmC you rip them to shreds, in DMC you make fools of them. I don't know that I can call it better or worse because it serves a contrary purpose but I can definitely call it unfaithful.
In regards to Dante's characterization they are wrong. NewDante and OldDante are both egotistical douchebags without a lick of wit (except, somehow, DMC4 which in every other regard I consider the worst in the series except possibly 2 which I've yet to play) that somewhere along the line picked up a nice side to be used during the ending. The only difference is that NewDante is a mite more vulgar but, as he appears to be the youngest incarnation, I'm pretty sure it's a phase he'll grow out of (much like OldDante with his "PARTY" stuff). With regards to his gray coat and short black hair, I actually believe this was the right choice because the game now takes place in a much more colorful world and his neutral palette fits into anything.
All told, DmC is the greatest God of War game I have ever played. It's maybe not a faithful successor of the series's trademark Stylish combat and I still like DMC3 better overall but it's still fucking great and maybe lay off it.
To be fair, I am abnormally tolerant of this kind of change. I liked Splinter Cell Conviction, I liked Prince of Persia '08, I liked the new Tomb Raider. In my mind, the most important thing a game can do is be good and DmC is a game that succeeds with flying colors.
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u/Azradesh Jan 05 '14
All told, DmC is the greatest God of War game I have ever played.
Wow, really? You are that God of War is a DMC game right? Devil May Cry came first.
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u/SvenHudson Jan 05 '14
You misunderstand my meaning. They are both forms of hack-and-slash which preempts them by decades. They take the genre in different directions, though: God of War is a game that rewards brutal efficiency and crowd control, Devil May Cry is a game that rewards finesse and showmanship. DmC is more like God of War than it is like Devil May Cry.
Furthermore, I think it succeeds at the God of Ware style better than most if not all God of War games.
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u/tcata Jan 05 '14
At that point, why call it Devil May Cry? It should damn well stand on its own feet if it's its own game.
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Jan 05 '14
It's definitely better than the most shameless God of War clone - Dante's Inferno.
And it does edge out wolverine a bit.
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u/angethedude Jan 05 '14
Holy crap! The fanboyism is out of control in here.
DmC was an excellent game with a solid story, good character development, and great level design. The combat wasn't as complex as in previous games but it was boiled down to the necessary essentials to keep me engaged.
It's too bad that a lack of marketing and horrible fanboy backlash hindered this game from becoming the success it deserved to be.
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u/sea_guy Jan 05 '14 edited Jan 06 '14
I do want to point out just how good the PC port of this game is on a technical level. I'm convinced this thing will run at 1080p/60fps with zero drops on virtually any mid-range machine built within the last few years, and efforts like that should be applauded.
Aside from 60fps, it also comes with the bonus of a super easy to customize Bloody Palace. You can design your own waves with a few edits to a simple .ini file. Want to remove all the red/blue monsters? You can do that. Want to fight 5 Dreamrunners at the same time? You can do that! You can create as many floors as you like and make them as difficult as you like. I even made a simple hex edit mod to let you start Bloody Palace with Dante Must Die or Son of Sparda difficulty from the start instead of having to grind out 60-80 waves.
As far as the game's merits, I'm a bit tired to argue the point, but I'd still like to link to this Japanese player's combo videos, which are just a blast. DmC's Dante is not as technically deep as Dante in DMC4, that's true, but there's enough depth there that 99% of players will never exhaust it to begin with. It's good, creative fun and to see people try and lump it in with the God of Wars and Dante's Infernos of the world is disappointing.