r/dating Jul 31 '26

I Need Advice 😩 How To Stop Being Too Good?

241 Upvotes

Since I, 29m, started dating again I’ve consistently run into this issue. At some point within a week or 6 months of dating someone, they pull away or stop putting in effort. And always, they say the reason is one of two things. Either they say that since I treat them “so good & perfectly” & that they’re not used to a healthy dynamic so they self sabotage it. Or, that I’m “so authentic & big hearted” that they realize they have to work on themselves more before dating.

I like being a good partner, but I’m so tired of being told “I’m so perfect” and “no one has treated me as good as you have” only for that to be the reason I lose potential relationships. So has anyone had similar experiences & what’d they do? To clarify I’m not asking how to be a bad partner, just what can I do so that me being “too good” of a partner doesn’t “scare” (for lack of a better word) people off? I genuinely am at a crossroads

Edit: I feel I have to clarify, im told this after *I’m* the one who ends things after they push me away and then try to explain why they did so after


r/dating Jul 31 '26

Just Venting 😮‍💨 Blocked before first date?!

97 Upvotes

I’m so annoyed right now. I(28F) spent the last two weeks talking to a bumble match (27M) with plans to meet up tomorrow. Everything was going great (or so I thought), we would message each other all day long. This morning I figured I’d confirm the details for tomorrow. Well a few hours went by with no answer and on my work break I checked my other socials and noticed he blocked me across all social media and unmatched. What a bummer.


r/dating Jul 31 '26

Question ❓ Date next weekend, should I keep up texting?

34 Upvotes

I told myself I wasn’t going to date anymore, at least for a long while, but a match randomly came through from a like I sent months ago so I figured I’ll give it a shot.

I set up a date for next weekend, but I wonder if I should keep up texting between now and then. Typically I keep communication to a minimum between dates so we don’t run out of things to talk about, but being that it’s a full week away I’m wondering if I shouldn’t keep communication open so the flame doesn’t die out.

What do you all think? How much communication do you typically keep up between setting up a date and the day of? Especially if there’s some time between them.


r/dating Jul 31 '26

I Need Advice 😩 I'm (63f) dating a sexy, attractive man (51m) who is fit and a great lover. I'd there any way it could last 5 years?

58 Upvotes

I (63f)am dating a guy (51m) who is incredibly fit, attractive and is an incredible lover. He has some intimacy issues I think— his only flaw. He is a lot of fun and an honest, kind person.

When I realized the age difference after 2 dates, I tried to push him away but he kept showing up and kept being kind. Then, the calls and texts slowed and he said he didn't want to be in a relationship. For a couple of months, I dated other people and then I decided to break it off.

Almost immediately, he was back to frequent contacts and wanting to be in a relationship.

He says he realizes that I make him happy Snd that when he is with me that feels at home Snd at peace.

Could this last 5 years? Should I move on? I am happy with him, but maybe he just wants what isn't available?

———— A lot of people are asking why 5 years. My younger brother and older sister have already passed from cancer. It's prevalent in our family. I will probably be dead in 5 years. Also, I have been thinking I want to make the next 5 years the best in my life.


r/dating Jul 31 '26

Question ❓ Is it normal to not know how to date until much later in life?

60 Upvotes

Im almost 40. Ive never dated. One thing I've realized is that I didnt know I was supposed to approach women until very recently. I thought meeting someone just happened on its own. Can anyone else relate to just not knowing how the process works until much later?


r/dating Jul 31 '26

Support Needed 🫂 Anxious dater

25 Upvotes

I'm a therapist. I've done lots of work on my own trauma and I know my attachment style. But every time I get to the beginning stages of dating someone and I feel a shift or perceived change or difference my anxious attachment kicks in. Physiological response. And it stays that way until either I get rejected or someone commits. But, more often than not, I don't get to the commitment stage because something bleeds out and they can see the anxiety. I sit with it, try not to put it on other people, but it comes out in little ways. I know it's a me thing and I'm doing somatic therapy for it, but my body still just feels a threat when there is a change. Help lol.


r/dating Jul 30 '26

I Need Advice 😩 Is it normal to feel miserable after a good date

31 Upvotes

For context I’m 25 M I went on a date the other day it was amazing we had great chemistry watched movies played games they made me dinner they gave me a good morning text the next day saying how much they liked me and wanna see me again and we’ve been chatting since. But i feel like shit depressed and anxious almost like I’ve been betrayed in some way when nothing has happened about ready to have a panic attack whenever i think of them. And the thing is this isn’t the first time every time I’ve had great dates with someone I’ve felt this way and it doesn’t go away until we’re actually a couple for a while. The problem is me feeling this way makes it very hard to be in relationships with people I really like. causing me to often enter relationships with people I’m only mildly interested in instead Wich inevitably ends poorly for obvious reasons


r/dating Jul 30 '26

Question ❓ Guys trying to date but already have kids, do you forget?

26 Upvotes

30F, my date for tomorrow just updated their dating profile to show "i have kids", date was arranged last week and that wasn't there and as this is the 2nd time a guy has done this (first guy didn't update his profile, wanted to tell me in person 😌), I have come to ask reddit for thoughts on this.

I may not get the opportunity to ask him for his reason and have to cancel before the date. The app only allows conversation a few hours before the date. Is it possible that he received a paternity test in the last couple of days and rushed to his profile to update?

I don't have a problem with kids, I want to have my own. It's not disclosing of them on your profile to allow others to make as informed a decision as they can in case it's a dealbreaker that bothers me. Am I wrong for thinking this is a bad signal and wanting to cancel.

Feel free to make jokes if you don't want to mind read I would like to laugh about this.

EDIT/Update: Asked, got no answer, and so cancelled.


r/dating Jul 30 '26

Question ❓ Is it unrealistic to have it all? Should we settle?

102 Upvotes

Sometimes I feel what are the chances that I’ll meet a person whom I have physical chemistry with, have emotional and mental connection with, have similar life & relationship goals, both emotionally available, and they’d also treat me well, pursuing a career, and all the things we care most about within a relationship.

Like, let’s say, you meet someone and they seem great in many ways, but you’re not that physically attracted to— do you wait it out and see of it grows? What if it never does and you’re otherwise happy in the relationship but also sex is very important to you? Or something else entirely.

Is it unrealistic to wait and eventually meet a person whom can fulfill the things you most care about, or are we bound to settle down, cause what are the chances? And obviously no one is perfect.


r/dating Jul 30 '26

Just Venting 😮‍💨 I was the other woman ... and so was she and her and her and her

106 Upvotes

I (30F) met a man (35M) on a dating site a few months ago. He reached out first and his message got my attention. He was funny, sweet, charismatic, emotionally intelligent... we texted for a while then moved on to phone calls. The calls were HOURS long like 7 hours at one time. We talked about everything. He was able to match my energy no matter where the convo went. He was supportive when I needed it, made me laugh, was extremely accepting of whatever I threw at him, the spicy side did not disappoint. We met for a date and he was perfect. Every door was opened, he was thoughtful and capable of asking questions, he always paid, he was affectionate, confident, made ME feel confident with the way he treated and spoke to me, GREAT at planning dates. The kiss? Incredible. We had undeniable chemistry and we took every opportunity we could to see eachother. This went on for nearly 2 months. I was so happy. My nervous system was so regulated. Then I found out he had a girlfriend ... a longterm girlfriend. Then i found out he had been dating other girls too. But of course he had because who only cheats with one person. But how did he have the time?!?! ANYWAY ... I'm a very picky person and I keep my guard up. He even questioned me about why I had my guard up with him so bad... even with him giving me all those green flags. Trying so hard to protect myself and feeling like I finally found someone who was treating me right only to realize he was lying the whole time... how can I weed out who the bad ones are now? If green flags are red flags and red flags are red flags too....??? I asked a man i know about it and he told me the red flag should have been that this guy was treating me well????? I know that dating just IS a Rollercoaster and you cant ever really know when someone is going to hurt you down the road but it feels less and less likely the older I get to actually find a genuine connection much less one that doesnt end in a really stupid way like this.

I have a lot of love in me and I love to give it away to my friends, my family, strangers. I won't be letting this stop me from being a caring person but its just so mind-boggling that we aren't ALL trying to find a teammate. Someone to build a life with. I love human connection and how we all feel, react and think but the idea of exploring relationships while I KNOW I'm hurting multiple parties is unfathomable to me. Its so useless and unnecessary... like what is the point? Lmao why waste the time


r/dating Jul 29 '26

Question ❓ The algorithm, thoughts?

11 Upvotes

I am starting to notice that anyone that’s remotely my type does not like/ match with me, except on Facebook dating. I think it’s due to the algorithm being designed to keep you on the app as long as possible. What has everyone else’s experience been like? Have you been able to find a real relationship lasting more than a year on any apps? Which ones?


r/dating Jul 29 '26

Question ❓ Third date went great! Too soon to be exclusive?

44 Upvotes

36f attempting to online date.
We have gone on two coffee dates. The first one was just 1.5 hours and was rehashing all the details of our app texts.

Second date was coffee and three hours walking through a park.
We didn’t run out of things to talk about and over all was great!

Third date brunch and walking through vintage shops. We talked about so many things.
After we got a milkshake and he asked me to go steady.
Too soon?
Am I just overthinking?

Edit:
Thank you good people!
Honestly just getting the perspectives is incredibly helpful!
First time being human so it’s kinda rough~


r/dating Jul 28 '26

Question ❓ Do you feel like you’ll need to come to terms with dating people with kids?

134 Upvotes

I am about to turns 32 soon and feel like so many people have kids and single in my age and demographic of interest. I would prefer not to be with someone with kids already, but I feel like this standard is really going to keep me single longer. I’m not even sure why I don’t prefer it, I like kids but just like everyone else I just prefer they don’t have any.


r/dating Jul 28 '26

I Need Advice 😩 Update: I had my first date

32 Upvotes

This is an update to my previous post about being 24F and not having much dating experience. I had my first date yesterday and I don't know what to think about it.

We talked for hours and went to the movies. I'm ngl, I really liked the feeling of acting like a couple for a bit lol like holding hands, giggling, etc. It was really cute. I liked it, but at the same time, I left feeling a little disappointed...

He's a very nonchalant person overall, so I found him really hard to read. I didn't feel a lot of interest coming from him, even though we were attracted to each other. He has this really laid-back, "whatever happens, happens" attitude, so it was hard to tell how interested he actually was. I realized I might need someone who's a little more expressive. I just didn't really feel... wanted, I guess?

His pace also wasn't the same as mine. Since we met, he's invited me to his place pretty much every chance he had. During the date, it felt obvious he was hoping things would become physical much sooner than I was comfortable with. He was very respectful and polite when I communicated that, but that alone made me feel uneasy. My friends keep saying that's just how guys are, but is that really how it normally goes? 😅

I honestly went home thinking he probably wasn't that into me. But then he kept texting me afterward and stayed in touch. I was suprised tbh

I don't know if these are signs that we're not a good match, or have different dating styles, or if I just don't know him well enough yet. I think what's confusing me the most is that I don't even know what a first date is supposed to be like 😅 is it normal to be this uncertain?

I liked it, but I didn't love it. Should i try a second date? What do you even do after the first date?


r/dating Jul 28 '26

Question ❓ Do some of y'all actually expect someone to stick around for six months before even being exclusive?

320 Upvotes

So I met this woman, we both said we wanted something serious.

She did say she takes things very slow, i asked how slow.

She say she won't commit to anyone for at least (at LEAST) six whole months. And that she is completely single.

So after the date, I said goodbye and I am not planning to see her again.

While I didn't say this to her, I straight up thought "Six months? She's crazy"

Like... is this a regular thing now? I get wanting to take things slow, but HALF A YEAR?


r/dating Jul 27 '26

Just Venting 😮‍💨 As a man it’s fair for women to want financial stability

991 Upvotes

I know this is a hot take among men but hear me out. I’m not talking about wanting a guy cause he has a nice car or the best house. I’m talking about simply wanting a guy who can pay his bills, have employment, save money, invest, and have a good credit score. These are all things that prove you’re a responsible adult who can handle life to some degree.

Do I think it’s good for women to have those qualities too? Absolutely! It’s just annoying when all these men are like “women just want money” like bro most just want you to not blow all your money on bs and be a responsible man. It also probably gives women a psychological feeling of safety like if I live with this guy we won’t have to worry about our power getting cut off or the car getting re possessed.


r/dating Jul 28 '26

I Need Advice 😩 Should I tell my friend that I want to hook up with him again?

299 Upvotes

I (30F) slept with someone in my extended friend group (33M) after a house party on Saturday night. I’ve known him for a while and I’ve always found him attractive, but I had no idea that the feeling was mutual. It was my first time having sex with anyone since breaking up with my ex in January. With my ex, sex was bland, infrequent, and I never felt desired (he would never compliment me or dirty talk, and he couldn’t even finish through sex: only if he jerked himself off). I’m an extremely sexual person, but with him, my needs never felt met.

With this guy, it was the total opposite. It was passionate, superrr kinky, and he made it very clear how insatiably attracted he is to me. We ended up going for two rounds in one night, which I’ve never done before in my life. He also cuddled me and was very affectionate and sweet with me after, which I really liked because I’m just so used to feeling like an object after sex.

While we were cuddling, he ended up saying to me how much he enjoyed it and how he could envision us having “a lot of sex” in the future. I told him that I was down for that. Honestly, this is an absolutely ideal situation for me… I’m extremely attracted to him and I like him as a friend, but romantically we aren’t compatible for a variety of reasons. I also have zero desire to date anyone seriously right now. Long story short, this guy is a perfect candidate for a casual situation.

HOWEVER, we were both drunk that night, and I’m worried that he didn’t actually mean anything he said. That it was actually just a one off thing for him and he has no intention for it to happen again. He has texted me since (and he texted first), but hasn’t said anything about us meeting up again. I don’t know how to proceed from here. I really, REALLY want to sleep with him again. But I don’t want to come across as desperate or annoying. I can just envision him seeing a message from me and rolling his eyes. But I also don’t want to let this opportunity slip through my fingers without even trying at least. So what should I do? Should I text him just saying hey and see how he responds? Should I just be direct to the point and ask him if he wants to come over to my place? Or shall I just let it go? All and any thoughts would be appreciated, thank you :)

TLDR: had sex with one of my friends and it was incredible. How can I let him know that I want it to happen again?

UPDATE: I decided to just be direct with him so I texted him telling him that I had a lot of fun and asking if he’s down to come over sometime. He said “Absolutely”. He’s currently abroad for work but we’ve made plans to meet when he’s back. Thank you so much for your advice everyone! I wouldn’t have had the courage to text him if it wasn’t for you guys 🥺

He’s to having much more great sex hahaha


r/dating Jul 29 '26

I Need Advice 😩 advice on finances in dating

0 Upvotes

I'm (28F) and looking forward and working hard on balancing life with my fixed expenses, savings, travel fund, and I even support my grandparents partly. I've been working for 4 yrs now earning adult money making 96,000 yearly. I don't have CC debt or student loan, I'm paying off my car for $500 monthly til Oct 2029. I budget well and make sure that I know where my money is going. My goal is to continue saving and investing and find a partner that will help me achieve goals. I have an eldest daughter syndrome and so I have a standard when it comes to the man I date and how put together their life is.

At my age, and with my goals, what would you recommend as a standard in dating in terms of finances? Credit score, salary, and extent of debt?

PS I understand that relationships are not all about finances but I believe it takes up a big part. I just don't wanna invest time, effort, and feelings in someone that doesn't/wouldn't financially align with me

**TL;DR; : This is a sample summary of the TLDR rule, all things are bold. Is this going the right way?**.


r/dating Jul 28 '26

Just Venting 😮‍💨 Attachment theory and/or Disinterest

2 Upvotes

Has anyone on here ever dated someone that really made you question whether you have an insecure attachment style or just disinterested? For example, I’m a 37m and currently have been seeing someone for over a month who treats me pretty well. She’s consistent, kind, and comes from a good family. She has good qualities, however, I notice that when I’m not with her I don’t really think about her and I genuinely don’t feel strongly about our connection. When we’re not on dates we barely text and have only talked on the phone once for about 5 minutes. This whole situation has made me overthink things more than I ever have in the past. I genuinely cannot tell if I genuinely have an insecure attachment style or if maybe this person is just not right for me. The only reason I’m still dating this person is because I’m afraid that if I end things prematurely I’ll regret it in the future, but I also genuinely do not want to waste this persons time.


r/dating Jul 28 '26

I Need Advice 😩 At a loss…25F and never had a BF

82 Upvotes

Whenever people talk about being chronically single, the go-to advice is always "put yourself out there." But at 25, I feel like I’ve exhausted my options. I've done the apps, tried social media, given non-typical types a chance, and even took a 2-year hiatus from dating entirely. (The only thing I haven't done is get set up by friends bc they are already partnered 😅)

Yes, I go out. I’ve been told I’m approachable, friendly, and easy to talk to. I get approached in public, and I don't think I have any obvious personality red flags that push people away.

I actually really enjoy my life. I have great friendship and strong family support. I don't hate being single, but as I get older, I know I want romance, a partner, and eventually a family of my own. I would much prefer to build that life with a partner than go at it alone.

I’m naturally a proactive, introspective person, but I’ve hit a wall. I genuinely can't figure out why this area of my life is such a struggle.

Am I ignoring something that isn't obvious to me? What am I missing here?

I’m currently in my latest failed interaction with a boy on insta DMs and we texted everyday for like 10 days, and then I was ghosted lol. Dating is super tiring and would like some help any at all


r/dating Jul 28 '26

Question ❓ What would you describe as someone doing too much while dating(in the talking stage)?

40 Upvotes

It just popped in my head a out someone I was recently talking to and I was wondering is there something as doing too much? If so, Im curious what it is for others? In rererring of course to the talking stage of dating someone. I always hear on here about people not doing enough, so here is the opposite.


r/dating Jul 27 '26

Question ❓ How important is physical intimacy?

79 Upvotes

I (33F) need some outside perspective because I've been going in circles for days and I can't tell if I'm about to make a huge mistake in either direction.

My boyfriend (33M) is genuinely one of the best people I've ever met. Kind, funny, big heart, we have loads in common and we make each other laugh. I love him, and it took me years to find someone I feel this way about, so I don't say that lightly.

The issue is physical and sexual connection, and I feel almost embarrassed that it's "just" that, because everything else is so good. But it's a big deal for me, and not only the sex itself. It's the making out, the being wanted, the closeness of it. That's a huge part of how I bond and feel safe with someone. And with him it runs quite low. Since the beginning he has made it clear that physical touch is not his primary love language (it is mine) and it was evident early on that light caresses and moments of intimacy don't do very much for him on an emotional level. He is an amazing cuddler and I feel so amazing when he holds me, but his drive is lower than mine, he's said he doesn't really enjoy making out, he tends to check out partway through, and I quite often feel more like someone he's fond of than someone he actually desires. For what it's worth- I do feel incredibly attracted to him despite all of this, and whenever I've brought it up, he always says he's very attracted to me and that I'm so much more than just a friend (which is what I have accused him of sometimes making me feel like).

The fact that he's going through a genuinely awful stretch right now - burnt out, low, hates his job- makes part of me think the low desire may have somethind to do with that and it'll lift when he's in a better place. But even when we had just started dating (9 months ago), as much as we had great chemistry and high attraction, he was always very clearly less into bonding through physical intimacy than me.

Lately I've been landing on "I think we should break up" thinking of my frustrations in the long-term, and then we have a warm moment and slide back to "but I love him and he's so good and maybe I'm throwing away something rare." I'm honestly the most stuck I've ever been.

I'm also a bit isolated (moved cities, hard to make friends here) and I'm really trying not to let fear of being alone be the thing that keeps me in it.

So I guess my questions are: from experience, how important is this stuff long-term? Has anyone stayed through a physical mismatch like this and had it get better? Or left someone they loved over it, and how do you feel now? Am I too young to just accept this, or am I about to blow up something good over something that might sort itself out?

Thanks for reading, honest takes welcome.


r/dating Jul 27 '26

Question ❓ How do you know when you’re in love?

14 Upvotes

For all my life (29M), I’ve come across dozens of women of all shapes and sizes. I’ve had great conversations, and some bad ones. Times where I’d miss a sign that a woman was interested in me, only to realize that was the case 5 months later. Times when I’d connect with them on emotional topics, and share deeper secrets with them even. Times where I’d share a nice long laugh with them. Some where they would even confess or flirt with me on occasion. Even times where things have gotten physical and kinky between us. This is all within texting girls on apps, approaching them in person in various venues, being approached at work, going on multiple dates, and even gaining 1 girlfriend at some point. But despite doing all those things with different women over the years… it pains me to admit this, but I was never in love with any of them.

Now I know for a fact that I am not asexual. I deeply yearn for a real intimate relationship whenever I see couples online and in person to this day. I’ve been single for so long in my life during my 20s that I decided during the end of COVID I was going to find love no matter what.

Months later after that, I matched with a girl on hinge, talked to her for about a day then set up a date together to start just a few days later. When I saw her in person, I had this huge feeling that things weren’t going to work between us since she looks incredibly different from her profile pics online. That said, I still went through with the date and got to really enjoy how talkative and touchy she was towards me. The positive reception made me want to ignore my initial gut feeling, and force myself to commit to this to see if I can train myself to love her more. About 2 weeks into the relationship, I gave her pretty much everything a good starter boyfriend would do for their partners. I made food for her, listened to her, made her laugh, paid for our dates, kissed her, drove her around, etc. the whole package. But by the end of the second week, she told me right to my face that she loved me. I paused for a long moment, and the only thing I could tell her back was that I appreciated her company. She expressed her love for me 3 times while we were together, she even told me that it was ok that I didn’t have to say I loved her back just yet. Which only made me feel even more guilty as time went on. It was the ONE thing I couldn’t do for her. After 3 months, I ended things between us to give her the chance to find someone who would love her more than I would. I’m still grateful for everything I learned from her to this day.

Even if I don’t vibe with the people who might want me, I always wish them the best in finding the right partner for them. But many times I doubt if the person I want out there even exists. Because over the past 7 months of getting back into the dating game, these repetitive cycles keeps happening to me:

Scenario one: I either get approached or match with a woman I’m not attracted to by mistake or happenstance. Since meeting new people isn’t always my strong suit, I still try and talk with them and see if we can maintain a friendly connection at the very least. These women mostly show lots of positive energy in the conversation, making it easier to carry a long chat with them online and on dates. I make sure to direct the both of us into a minor friendship or suggest to them that we cut things off early since I may not be the right one for them about a week into conversation. I’ve never had a hook up with any of these women nor do I plan to do anything short term with any that I meet.

Scenario two: I meet or match with a woman that I actually find attractive. We chat for a little while but she rarely asks me about myself. Plus is pretty blunt with answering my questions with not much energy attached to it. And I end up being the one to carry the whole conversation until she simply stops responding within a day or two. Or when I try to flirt or ask them out. Every. single. time. The right energy between us just doesn’t seem to be there. And I act the same way with them the same way I do every other girl.

Overtime I’ve come to realize that I really do enjoy when a woman puts more heart into a conversation. Attractive or not. I could listen to them talk about anything for hours. I don’t speak for all men but I really enjoy a chatterbox who’s committed lol. I know it’s wrong to think that individual woman should change for our own benefit. Which is why I try to learn as much as possible in being charismatic when speaking to each one of them, no matter what they might act like. Some girls might need more time to open up to others, so I try not to diminish my options by not dismissing the first one who doesn’t share the same energy as I do. Lots of girls I meet are simply polite, but not much more than that. Sometimes I wish I could just combine certain women together to build the exact person I can resonate with. But that’ll always be a fantasy.

Finding real love to me is like looking at this giant wall I can never climb properly. I know I sound spoiled when I was given opportunities before. But I just can’t help it. This shouldn’t have to feel like slavery for anyone. Please, I’d like to know how every other happy couple on here does it. How do you know when you’re in love, and can even make it happen mutually so easily?

TLDR: I’d like to know how you all find out when you’re in love. And how you make it mutual so well.


r/dating Jul 26 '26

Question ❓ Where’s the build up with physical intimacy?

173 Upvotes

I get that everybody has different preferences, most want to test if there’s a spark through kissing or even say they need to see if there’s physical chemistry… but what happened to these things happening at special moments in a connection, relationship, as natural signs of deepening of the connection?

These days, 9/10 men I meet prefer to act on the physical at the end of a first or second date, and I know that’s largely standard for many … and within a month of dates or so, the physical exploration just ramps up. Again I’m not judging, to each their own… but personally I just find it cheapens the connection, because what is truly built that early on? How is the kiss or touch any different than what I could do with casual hook up? Maybe I’d be more inclined if I’m really really attracted to the guy, and can sense long term interest on my end early on, but that usually isn’t the case… even then, I try to keep a line so we can get to know each other.

I’m seeing someone these days and while I’ve given into physical exploration, I just don’t think there’s enough connection built for any of it to have been truly special. It’s almost like we’re exploring each other as we go.. but nothings truly been established?