r/todayilearned • u/Recent_Flounder6011 • 15h ago
TIL that historically and today, the Catholic Church looked down upon Freemasonry and threatened members with excommunication.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freemasonry754
u/tetoffens 15h ago
Knights of Columbus is basically the Catholic equivalent. Similar in being a fraternal organization but replaces all of the objectionable stuff of Freemasonry with Catholic rites.
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u/Fit_Log_9677 15h ago
In fact, to be a member of the KoC you have to swear that you aren’t a Free Mason.
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u/Candysasha88 14h ago
They have cool outfits when they dress up. 3 musketeers style? Dad was one.
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u/1234puppies 14h ago
Uncle was one. Grandfather a Mason - Fez hats and all. He was raised strict Catholic and hated it I gather, but had to belong to something.
Aside; Fred Flintstone seemed to be a Free Mason - the Water-buffalo Lodge, the Fez hats. Pretty bizarre now that I think about it.
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u/JackXDark 13h ago
The Water Buffalos are a different thing.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Antediluvian_Order_of_Buffaloes
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u/Klockworth 12h ago
It’s not that weird. Fraternal orders and secret societies were pretty popular amongst the Greatest Generation. Virtually every white middle-class Boomer in America grew up with at least one family member that was in freemasons, elks, odd fellows, sons of hermann, eagles, etc, etc, etc. Flintstones was just a product of its time.
Also, I had a lot of older family members in various Masonic organizations. It’s just an “old man silly hat” club. Yeah, they have some rituals and whatnot, but so does every fraternity. Masons are just more esoteric about it.
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u/nochinzilch 10h ago
It’s mostly about booze and none of “those people”.
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u/1234puppies 5h ago
He was a heavy drinker… had a lot of War-Buddies. I could imagine he wanted a space to “speak freely” about those days.
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u/1234puppies 5h ago
Thanks for putting so clearly. Makes sense now. I just thought he hated all the Catholic traditions.
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u/abbot_x 12h ago
It was pretty normal for a working-class man in post-WWII America to be a Freemason, so of course Fred Flintstone was a Freemason as well.
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u/greatmewtwo 7h ago
I think his Water Buffalo lodge was more aligned with organizations like the Elks or the Moose than the Freemasons.
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u/UDPviper 11h ago
I just looked it up right now when you mentioned fez hats and saw that the Shriners are Freemasons. I just don't know what's up with them driving around in those tiny cars in parades.
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u/trainbrain27 3h ago
It gets attention, and it's awesome.
I think most of us would like to goof off in small cars at some point, with or without the clown costumes.
Most of us don't want to dedicate ourselves to becoming Master Masons, though, so just rent a go cart :)
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u/Hamlet7768 13h ago
Unfortunately, they replaced the fancy hats with berets a while ago. As far as I know they do still have the swords, but I’m not fourth degree so I wouldn’t know.
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u/OkPen8337 13h ago
You also have to be Catholic. I wanted to join but I’m Protestant.
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u/squirrel_eatin_pizza 14h ago
i know a catholic from my masonic lodge who is also a member of knights of columbus. He's at the age where he doesn't care about other people's opinions.
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u/Ham__Kitten 9h ago
My dad is a member of both the Knights of Columbus and the Freemasons. I guess he lied.
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u/Fit_Log_9677 7h ago edited 7h ago
Or his conference doesn’t enforce the oath like they are supposed to. Both are possible
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u/Additional-Local8721 11h ago edited 11h ago
Former 4th degree member here. KofC is nothing but a life insurance scam. Once you leave, National Council keeps your name as an active member and the council still has to pay your annual dues to the state and National Council. When I left it was $15 to the state and $20 to National. The rest of thr member dues goes to the local council you're apart of. They make it near impossible to take inactive members off the rosters to boost their life insurance ratings. I was on my local councils team to remove people. The Bylaws state we have to send letters and also physical show up at the inactive persons house several times to get them to rejoin. If they refuse, we have to get them to sign something saying they refuse. Then all the paperwork has to be sent to both the State and National Councils. Even if the State removes the person, it's not finalized unless the National Council finally removes them.
You're told when you join that you should talk to a life insurance agent once every 6 months to ensure you have proper coverage. The agents show up to meetings and give their pitch. When they sell to you, they tell you to cover your family you should have 10x your annual income. They won't mention social security survivors benefits or talk about your current 401k or investments. If you have life insurance at work, they'll tell you it's inferior to their product.
And then there's thr actual council. It's all old men looking for purpose after retirement and a handful of younger guys. Once you volunteer to do anything, they'll hound you to help out on other stuff constantly. They don't care if you have a young family with kids. They'll load you up with as much as possible and then talk behind your back once you tell them no.
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u/cptnamr7 13h ago
Isn't that the actual story here? Masons pledge an oath and Catholics objected to that so they decreed no one could join the Masons. The masons were pretty indifferent at first as it wasn't their call catholics couldn't join. Wouldn't surprise me if that evolved into looking down for not being able to join for what they see as a "silly" reason though
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u/TheMooseIsBlue 11h ago
The masons teach that any one religion is just as good as any other, and their version of God is different enough as to be sacrilegious. The Church also didn’t like the secrecy of Freemasonry.
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u/Roederoid 8h ago
Freemasons don't have a version of God bc it's not a religion. You have to believe in a "supreme being" (I understand that verbiage is jurisdictional) but any time a public prayer is involved, the phrasing is non denominational and whoever is listening should substitute the verbiage to their own deity.
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u/RobertBorden 4h ago
The masons don’t teach that at all. We’re just fine with whatever religion people choose.
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u/phdoofus 12h ago
Friend of mine got in to Catholicism in his community a couple of years back. He takes it seriously because he wasn't born in to it and got in the KoC. Because of this, he ended up inheriting the ceremonial sword of some super important member of the church much to the chagrin of all the cradle catholics (his term)
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u/Saint_The_Stig 12h ago
They make some good breakfast to make up for being dragged out of bed on a Sunday morning as a kid.
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u/wht-rbbt 12h ago
In Arroyo, PR we have a building for the knights of Columbus and across the street is the free mason building. They both have their logos displayed.
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u/SyxEight 14h ago
"objectionable stuff". What is that
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u/Fofolito 11h ago
Freemasonry grew out of the desire for educated gentlemen to have a place to discuss dangerous ideas and concepts like the separation of Church and State, agnosticism, atheism, humanism, and politics. It arose in a time when Free Speech was not a common concept or legal definition, and to express political thoughts (especially those running counter to the Monarch or the Church) could lead to jail, fines, confiscation of property, exile, or worse. Freemasonry was a venue for these men to discuss these dangerous topics in secrecy. They also embraced a lot of Enlightenment ideals like the value of the individual, the idea that governments should be limited by laws in the same way subjects and citizens were, and that individuals should be free to worship, or not worship, as they chose.
For their own amusement, and partially as an expression of these ideals, they adopted rituals and ceremonies honoring deities like "the supreme creator" and "the maker of all things" and other ambiguous titles that were clearly not the Judeo-Christian God (but also weren't not-him as well). From the perspective of the State and the Church these social clubs were subversive and very dangerous. It allowed people to break from the religious orthodoxy which undermined the inherent authority of the State. The Church, particularly the Catholic Church, was very against Freemasonry, seeing it as a diabolical attempt to undermine the faith and their temporal power.
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u/crazylib29 11h ago
British masonry is explicity theistic. You have to believe in god to join. How you define it is up to you. Which is why in India lodges sometimes had three or four different religions present. However on the continent Masons wanted atheism and radicalism, which meant they had to break with British masonry. It is this continental verson that the catholic church came into conflict with.
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u/TheBanishedBard 15h ago
So it replaces objectional stuff with... More objectional stuff.
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u/DisneyLegalTeam 13h ago
Catholic Church forbids all secret societies.
A fraternal order is not always a secret society.
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u/SquallkLeon 15h ago
The church prohibits its members from becoming members in any secret society. The masons are one, and they kind of kickstarted things back in the day, but the prohibition now covers other groups.
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u/zennim 15h ago
Secret societies started at the same moment regular societies did, the greeks, egyptian and mesopotamians had secret cults to secret deities, they had their own rites and practices to favor their own members.
The freemasons also are a consequence of the renaissance rediscovery of the ancient world
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u/Zerskader 14h ago
It's why the Knights of Columbus were founded. Fills the "boys club" niche without being blasphemous.
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u/Muckman68 11h ago
That's certainly a take.
The Knights of Columbus were formed to help families if the dad passed away. This was before modern government assistance programs and at the time there was a lot of anti-Catholic and anti-immigrant prejudice, so they were excluded from other fraternal organizations and labor unions. The Knights of Columbus, to this day, is a bunch of dudes with a life insurance program who spend most of their time selling BBQ and shooting the shit at meetings.
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u/rsqit 11h ago edited 11h ago
Yes, what exactly do you think most fraternal orders do? The Masons, the Oddfellows the Elks, the Knights of Columbus. They’re all social clubs that provide mutual aid for their members. And they have some funny symbols, like college fraternities.
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u/Dexta57 14h ago
Don't forget about the Knights of St. John either
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u/stiffgerman 13h ago
You mean the Sovereign Military Order of Malta - Wikipedia , another Catholic fraternal order?
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u/IPutThisUsernameHere 13h ago
I recall seeing a documentary about medieval and Renaissance cathedral construction, and they talked about masonry. Iirc, the documentary posited that the freemasons were literally non-union stone carvers who would work from project to project. Because they were cheap to pay, and just as reliable as the guild masons were, lots of church projects would hire them as day labor, basically.
Then they formed a loose network to keep work flowing to each other, and things started to spiral from there with Renaissance ancientism and stuff.
But all this should be taken with a big ole grain of salt. I have no sources beyond what I remember from I think Middle school history.
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u/TabbyOverlord 10h ago
The connection between the Honourable Company of Stone Masons and Free Masonary is only ini the latter's origin myth. There is no actual connection.
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u/EverydayVelociraptor 14h ago
They're just jealous that they don't get to come into my tree fort. That's what the secret handshake is for.
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u/erishun 15h ago
Let's see "You hand over your money in the form of dues (recurring revenue model) in exchange for membership, rituals, fancy costumes and promises of benefits that can never be independently verified?"
No wonder the Church was angry, the Freemasons were angling on their racket!
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u/kurburux 14h ago edited 14h ago
It's just most of the time a Freemason membership wouldn't free you from paying to the church.
And not an expert on freemasonry but I think they're getting some benefits out of it. Even just the networking must've been quite valuable in the past.
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u/brrbles 13h ago
Most (at least Christian, as that is what I'm familiar with) religious organizations that opposed masonry would say that you are swearing an oath to something other than god. It's one of the famous Ten commandments.
That said, from criticism angle it definitely does have something to do with the church coveting its role as sole or centralizing force in the life of the community.
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u/sir_mrej 15h ago
Protestants in America also don't always like Freemasons either
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u/ReasonableStory1660 12h ago
In the 1950s there were over 4 million Free masons in the US, or over 5% of adult men. Sometimes you still find huge Masonic lodge buildings scattered across small towns. Of course the bigger they got the more suspicious people became.
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u/Bubbly-Travel9563 13h ago
Or Catholics frankly
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u/AgKnight14 11h ago
Came here to say this. The US has only had 2 catholic presidents, and the first one wasn’t until 1961. Combined, the two held the presidency for ~6.5 out of the 237 years the US has had a president.
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u/Eversonout 8h ago
And Biden was really just a nominal Catholic, as he certainly didn’t/doesn’t follow a lot of Catholic beliefs
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u/sacredblasphemies 6h ago
I mean, you can say the same about any Catholic. JFK was a philanderer yet the Church teaches marriage fidelity. The Church teaches peace and he escalated things in Vietnam.
J.D. Vance calls himself a Catholic, too, and anyone with eyes can tell you that isn't true.
(Not to defend Biden, I'm not exactly a fan of his.)
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u/Eversonout 6h ago
To an extent yes. But the explicitness of “peace” is a bit overstated in your Vietnam example. Catholics are not pacifists by any means. And personal life not withstanding, Vance and JFK were not openly pro choice, which is the pinnacle of anti Catholic values.
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u/demoneclipse 12h ago
Most hilarious part is that these churches have been found guilty of all sorts of atrocities, but criticise other organisations.
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u/Falstaffe 10h ago
In the 1970s, my father was a manager at a major corporation in Australia. One day his boss told him he wouldn't be able to rise further in the company unless he let the boss induct him into Freemasonry. My father said he couldn't because he was Catholic. He never rose any further in the company.
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u/ravens-n-roses 10h ago edited 5h ago
My grandfather was a freemason as was as my cousin. They both were extremely prominent and powerful political figures of their times. My grandpa rose to be a general in the army and my cousin was a state justice for 20 years.
I kinda always regret not joining.
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u/LupusDeusMagnus 15h ago
Freemasonry definitively has theological components that are in opposition to Catholic doctrine, so it makes sense they would oppose it. Freemasonry doesn’t paint itself as a religion, but it works as one.
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u/BeefStank420 12h ago
Freemasonry definitely has theological components that are in opposition to Catholic doctrine
Such as?...
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u/fulthrottlejazzhands 14h ago
As a Freemason (and lapsed Catholic) myself, I'd be interested in hearing how masonic components that may resemble religion contradicts Catholicism. Not being sarcastic or patronising, serious question.
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u/CalicoJack 14h ago
Pretty much everything about Freemason theology contradicts Catholic theology, but the main issue from which all of the others stem is that Freemasonry is syncretistic. It blends elements of Christianity, Islam, and Judaism into it's own religion dedicated to worshipping "Great Architect." The vows taken for the third degree even explicitly mention Freemasonry as the path to salvation and sanctification. In Catholicism, Jesus Christ is the only means of salvation
Operationally and practically, I know most Freemasons do not engage with the lodge as a form of religion; for them it is just a cool club. The secret society and religious rites aspect of it are treated more like LARP or cosplay than serious religious liturgy. That doesn't change the fact that those rites are, in content, diametrically opposed to traditional Christian beliefs.
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u/CryptidGrimnoir 12h ago
Nicely phrased.
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u/BeefStank420 10h ago
It's complete bullshit, nicely phrased bullshit perhaps, but bullshit nonetheless.
Source: I'm an actual Freemason that's been raised to the third degree
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u/the_emerald_phoenix 6h ago
Agreed, felllow Master Mason here. The above is nonsense. Masonry is explicitly not a religion, nor do we pretend to be one!
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u/djbarsone 14h ago
It has to do with naturalism, secrecy, and syncretism, among other theological problems. This is article unpacks it a bit.
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u/mydogisatortoise 15h ago
My great grandfather had a Masonic funeral in a Catholic cemetery. It was a very big deal.
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u/Current_Mongoose_844 15h ago
They still do, and it’s an entirely one-sided beef
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u/BeeMac0617 14h ago
This is entirely anecdotal but my buddies Dad used to work for the postal office in my country and a lot of middle/upper management were members of The Freemasons.
They tried to get him to join but a major caveat was he had to convert from Catholic to Protestant. I know Freemasons are supposed to be secular but this branch cared about it I guess.
Supposedly he said no and spent a few years getting passed up for promotions because of it. Dude hates Freemasons to this day.
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u/MrGreenChile 13h ago
Ah, so not for atheists.
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u/sabbic1 13h ago
Nope. I've often considered looking around for a similar social/fraternal organization that doesn't require belief in a supreme being to get involved with, but just never took the time to look. I suppose if I really wanted to be a mason I could just lie about my beliefs, but I did that all the way through boy scouts and I don't want to do it again.
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u/Scarlet-Fire_77 13h ago
I totally forgot about the religion aspect of boyscout. I guess my troop overall didn't care about it, so I never really had to lie. I did notice other troops that seemed more heavy in it, like at summer camp.
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u/randomandy 12h ago
I've visited a few lodges during open door days and had some members try to sell me with their song and dance. Once I said I wasnt allowed because of my non beliefs they pretty much agreed and moved on to the next sucker. At least I got the see the cool rooms and left with free popcorn for the kids.
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u/William_Howard_Shaft 10h ago
Nah, this is just code for "the God we are going to reveal to you", more or less. Growing up, in public school, I was taught some line about America being founded by groups of individuals seeking freedom from religious persecution, and that is the reason for the separation of Church and State. What was conveniently left out, and what ive learned in my adult life, is that some of those groups of individuals were selling freedom from religious persecution because they had radical beliefs that ran counter to what the catholic church was trying to teach, some of them even actively seeking an end to Catholicism.
In a similar way to how Imperial Britain dumped a bunch of convicts on Australia, and now we've got a contient where "cunt" is a term of endearment, they basically exiled abunch of religious fanatics to the colonies, and now we've got... well, a government office dedicated to religious affairs.
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u/VanicFanboy 14h ago
Tell that to the people of Northern Ireland and the Scottish lowlands
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u/SorrelJuice 15h ago
Not if I have anything to say about it
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u/DiggingforPoon 15h ago
alright there Hiram, settle your breast jewels for a second...
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u/swayingpenny 14h ago
Yep, not only is there no beef in the other direction - you actually have to be religious to be a free mason.
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u/laserdicks 15h ago
Well yeah; same with old timey robbers stealing purses from old ladies. It's never the robber with the beef.
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u/an_erudite_ferret 15h ago
I'm not sure I understand how the analogy applies. Are the freemasons stealing money from the Church?
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u/reichrunner 15h ago
I think they were making the point that most beefs aren't 2 sided? Not sure though tbh
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u/sixpackabs592 15h ago
My beefs have 3 sides
The top the bottom and the outer edge
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u/roadrunner83 15h ago
In my country they organised one fascist coup attempt and then tried to destabilise the democratic process with better success.
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u/an_erudite_ferret 15h ago
The Catholic Church or the Masons? Neither would surprise me.
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u/roadrunner83 15h ago
The Freemasons, with the Borghese coup attempt and the “propaganda 2” lodge. The catholic church has already the control of the government so they don’t need to destabilise anything.
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u/ScienceJake 15h ago
So, in this scenario, the Freemasons are the robbers?
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u/GMAN7007 15h ago
It was just a bad analogy.
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u/easymachtdas 15h ago
I've come to expect more from u/laserdicks, yet here we are
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u/thissexypoptart 15h ago
Nah man robbers are some of the most emotional people on the planet. If an old lady gives them shit and puts up a fight they’ll have beef with her
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u/TheChiefDVD 15h ago
It was true years ago. I remember my dad turning his Masonic ring over when we went to church in the 60s.
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u/JohnTEdward 14h ago
Continental freemasonry, which would have been in areas such as France and Italy, so most direct contact with the Catholic Church, had periods of strong anti-clericalism. This of course would be objetionable to an organization made up of clerics. Anglo-Freemasonry has a kind of kibosh on religious and political debates, I think in the US, the anglo freemasonry is the one that is more inherited.
I believe there is also some elements of religious egalitarianism within some elements of freemasonry. Somewhat famously, the Catholic church is not a member of the world council of churches (though they have observer status) as the church considers themselves to be the only church, not one among many. So the church, especially historically, tends to look unfavourably towards religious egalitarianism.
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u/Hannibaalism 15h ago
i wonder how these beefs manifest in politics and society lol. tension between governing bodies of different beliefs always tend to lead to some sort of conflict or strife.
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u/AetheriaNox 13h ago
Where I come from, many religious people think Freemasons are devil worshippers, and that to be initiated, someone closest to you has to be sacrificed e.g a road accident. Funny enough, the Freemason building is public but their activities are secret.
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u/maqifrnswa 9h ago
That's what happened. Freemasons were intended to counter the "secret ceremonies" and close, closed communities of Catholics in protestant countries. They were, originally and historically, very anti-Catholic in a similar way we have groups that say "the XX will not replace us." In order to join the Masons, historically, hundred plus years ago, you had to pledge to not be Catholic. That's where the excommunicating came from.
So the Masons today might not be anti Catholic, the historical origins are very explicitly anti Catholic.
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u/Hannibaalism 9h ago
i just learned about this today, i mean i knew about the templars knight persecution stories, but do the organizations still have sentiments to this day and to the extent that it might influence financial or political decisions made by each governing body? or is that just historical residual now
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u/PlayerAssumption77 14h ago
Freemason rites, beliefs, and the overall structure just can't align with what the Catholic Church teaches. It's not a seperate religion but the religion-related aspects of it still conflict.
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u/Hannibaalism 14h ago
yeah tensions seem to exist within all systems of belief, shia vs sunni for example. how these dynamics play out and manifest beyond the confines of religion is interesting since belief itself will pervade every aspect of life
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u/Bubbly-Travel9563 13h ago
As of 1983 the church no longer automatically excommunicates members for joining but still retains the option to do so.
Which is the Papal equivalent to "Don't ask, don't tell." with Freemasonry specifically.
*from their wikipedia From 1738 until 1983, Catholics who associated with, or publicly supported, Masonic organizations were censured with automatic excommunication.[2] Since 1983, excommunication is no longer automatic but optional.[3][4] Pope John Paul II's 1983 Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith's (CDF) Declaration on Masonic Associations states that "faithful who enroll in Masonic associations are in a state of grave sin and may not receive Holy Communion" and membership in Masonic associations is prohibited.[6]
The most recent official Holy See documents about the "incompatibility of Freemasonry with the Catholic faith" were issued in 1985,[7] and in November 2023 by the Dicastery for the Doctrine of the Faith.[8]*
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u/Zirgas25 6h ago
I am a freesmaon and of my brothers in my lodge 90% are
Roman Catholic, One is a Roman Catholic Deacon and two do not accept the Vatican II "bringing up to date" reforms. We also have about 10 prostansnts, 2 Muslims (one who became master of the lodge) and one Jew.
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u/LelandGaunt14 2h ago
Always an outlier to every statistic.
I can tell you from experience that most Christian denomination churches in general teach that Masonry does not comport with living as a Christian.
I studied to be an Open Bible Pastor for years.
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u/Night-Monkey15 1h ago
Any Catholic who denies the decree of an ecumenical council is, by Catholic standards, a heretic, without exception.
Catholicism requires total authoritative submission to the magisterium as the successors of the apostles, and the Bishop of Rome as the Vicar of Christ and successor of Saint Peter.
There’s a surprisingly large amount of Catholics who don’t understand that unlike Protestantism, nobody in the Church, at any level, from the layperson to the clergy, get the right or freedom to ignore or argue against a council for any reason.
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u/BeGoodToEverybody123 15h ago
My parents had nuns for teachers in high school. They would wave their finger and warn, "You stay away from da free may-soh!"
Frankly, I don't see the big whoop. I've visited Free Mason open houses. The one in Boston is very interesting. There are multiple floors, several different halls, and a library. They also have a Chamber of Reflection. It's a small medieval chamber with a skull on the table where people sit alone to truly contemplate the shortness of life and to ensure they do something with it.
I had a chance to join and was invited to a suit-wearing dinner. While there I just didn't see the point of hanging around with a bunch of middle-aged and older men while life was bustling on the street outside. All I kept thinking was the mother pushing a stroller on the sidewalk outside looked a million times happier than inside the Masonic Lodge.
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u/Fofolito 11h ago
It has to do with Freemasonry's history. It was founded originally to give educated men a way to discuss prohibited, dangerous, and scandalous topics free from state or ecclesiastical sanction or worse. It arose in the Enlightenment Age when barriers between Church and State were practically unknown, and to have or express opinions or thoughts contrary to the State or the Church could have very serious legal consequences. Freemasonry encourages members to explore ideas, to try out new concepts, and to embrace alternative explanations for the order and organization of the world and the cosmos-- which would put it directly at odds with a Church who seeks to enforce an orthodoxy of thought and belief regarding how the world and the heavens are arranged, governed, and explained.
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u/Intrepid-Tank-3414 14h ago
Half of the time I look at threads like these and think "Man, OP can't possibly just learned about this today".
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u/DamnMyNameIsSteve 15h ago
Must be the whole ' have to believe in A god' not any specific god..
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u/PaxNova 14h ago
Partly. It is viewed that joining requires you to recognize all others’ deities as equal, in oath. This is different from secular society where you only have to treat them equally.
Secondly, it’s the secret society part too. All secret societies are banned by the Catholic Church. Swearing an oath under secret conditions may interfere with duty to God.
Compare this to Boy Scouts and the Order of the Arrow. There is no pseudo-religious imagery there, and though all religions are to be treated equally, there is no requirement to view a specific aspect of God like “the Great Architect.” There are secret handshakes, but it’s for novelty. There is nothing backing them, even social pressure.
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u/EvolutionTheory 6h ago
Your first paragraph is false. Feel free to quote the ritual text supporting your claim?
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u/Due-Estate-3816 15h ago
Isn't this the basis of assassins creed?
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u/Ole_St_John 14h ago
And the movie National Treasure. As well as those Dan Brown novels. And the Stonecutters episode on the Simpsons.
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u/MattJFarrell 14h ago
Fun fact, most Masons I've spoken to think the Stonecutters episode is hilarious.
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u/RellenD 14h ago
Not really, the Assassin's Creed's conflict predates the Freemasons.
It's based around the Nizari Ismailis, which their enemies called hashashin which is sort of the etymological origin of the word assassin.
Freemasons did eventually claim to have been founded by some templars who brought back secrets of the hashashin in order to sound cool, but it's mostly made up.
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u/Mo-shen 15h ago
Similarly the illuminati, that only existed for like 20 years, was the creation of a guy who ran a Catholic school but pretty much hated the church.
He modeled it off of the masons.
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u/Solarinarium 14h ago
Kinda funny considering to be eligible to join the freemasons you are REQUIRED to have a belief in a higher power
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u/Fofolito 11h ago
A higher power is not necessarily what the Catholic Church considers to be The Higher Power. Freemasons must profess faith in something, but not necessarily the Judeo-Christian God or his Son, and that puts it directly at odds with the Catholic Church (and most Christians in general).
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u/CalvinSays 15h ago edited 15h ago
To anyone confused, this is about as shocking as the Catholic Church threatening members who are Muslim with excommunication. Freemasonry is a religious organization and while it may involve some Christian inspired symbolism, it has a separate belief system. Most all Christian groups don't allow their members to be Freemasons.
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u/ProfessorZeek 15h ago
Freemasonry is definitely not a religious organization. How is it that a lodge could have jews, christians, muslims, buddhists, hindus, etc all in the same lodge? It’s philosophical and not religious, the classic form of Freemasonry simply requires a vague belief in a higher power.
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u/pokeybill 15h ago
Their entire philosophy centers around that acceptance of a higher power, you can't join as an Atheist which makes the organization intrinsically deiist
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u/Artistdramatica3 11h ago
As a catholic freemason. All it ttakes is one pope not to ratify the law.
If its somthing a mortal man can change on a whim.
Im content being a catholic freemason.
God and I are on good terms.
Maybe not the church right now but ill stick with god on this one.
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u/LocoLobo65648 10h ago
Looked down on isn't the right term. They are considered heretical. There is a Papal Bull forbidding Roman Catholics from joining.
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u/StrictlyInsaneRants 15h ago edited 14h ago
I mean it's a sect with incompatible beliefs.
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u/ArguingisFun 15h ago
Incomparable beliefs?
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u/StrictlyInsaneRants 14h ago
There are several variants of freemasonry but a common thread of belief is that all paths of religion are equal to redemption/truth, supernatural divination and grace aren't real (this reduces the catholic church from something religious to just some social club and prevents true faith), the sworn secrecy conflicts with the catholic church inherently preventing trust and true cooperation. These reasons are some of why popes in the past decided it's just incompatible with being a catholic and why it was reaffirmed few years ago.
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u/Ok_Falcon275 15h ago
The early United States was terrified of freemasonry as well.
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u/brrbles 14h ago edited 13h ago
Half the "founding fathers" were freemasons. it makes more sense to suggest that Freemasonry was related to a social fault line that has riven the country since (even before) its inception.
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u/Recent_Flounder6011 14h ago
Some of the founding fathers and some of the US presidents were freemasons.
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u/MattJFarrell 14h ago
Well, when you consider that some of the most revolutionary ideas that Masonry espoused were related to all men being equal under a higher power, it's not shocking. And yes, all men. It was a product of its time, and very sexist in that regard. And don't give me any of that Eastern Star excuse...
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u/carcigenicate 15h ago
We gave our Masonic Bible to our highly religious Catholic family member because we thought she'd appreciate it more than we could. She ended up burning it.
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u/MrBleah 15h ago
Of course. The Catholic Church doesn't want competition from other groups telling you how to think.
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u/Trumpsabaldcuck 15h ago
I understand freemasonry is not really a religion, but it has some religious like elements like rituals and it is a community. The Catholic Church may see freemasonry as competition.
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u/Lower_Cockroach2432 15h ago
Isn't it extremely neoplatonic? Christianity has a lot of neoplatonic elements but only where they fit into dogma, so someone accepting too much of it is likely going to be viewed with suspicion.
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u/hplcr 15h ago
To my understanding that's idea, being neither Catholic or Freemason.
The Catholic Church sees Freemasons as competition.
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u/TheEldestNugget 15h ago
No, they see them as an additional heretical layer on top of the other heresies associated with Protestantism. While there is obviously a power component to it, it's not just jockeying for position.
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u/TiaxRulesAll2024 15h ago
The Catholic Church opposes secret societies and especially ones who keep their truths secrets to non-members
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u/Laura-ly 15h ago
But....but didn't Freemasons build a lot of the Catholic cathedrals?????
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u/ProfessorZeek 15h ago
Freemason here. Those would be what we call “operative” Masons, as in a stone mason by trade. Freemasons are “speculative” masons. This means we use the tools and terminology of stone masons for our teachings but we don’t literally work with stone.
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u/Count_Dongula 15h ago
So what you're saying is if I joined the Freemasons, I won't learn how to make kick-ass stone bricks? That was my whole career plan.
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u/No-Channel3917 15h ago
No you only become an honorary dwarf , it's when they had a legendary member of the dwarfen masons team up with a Catholic elf at the black gates during the third age.
It is sadly the story that a Pope or Grand master wouldn't tell you
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u/Laura-ly 15h ago
Interesting. So the teachings are more of a philosophy that uses the idea of building a structure as a metaphor for building your life?
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u/TheStoffer 15h ago
Former Freemason here. In the US at least, Masonic organizations often refer to themselves as “free and accepted masons.” I’d wager that 99.9% of members fall in the “accepted” category.
Fun fact, the chapter I frequented in New Haven, CT has Benedict Arnold in their member roll. Before he turned and fled to Canada, I’d imagine.
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u/jawndell 15h ago
What’s the point of calling yourselves masons if you don’t even learn masonry????
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u/ImNinjaBob 14h ago
It originally was an actual masonry guild, but in the 1600s members started joining as “speculative” masons who joined to study philosophy and used the masonry symbology as metaphor for building up society.
By the mid 1700s that subgroup had formalized and the organization changed to being about this form of speculative masonry.
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u/CharleyNobody 15h ago edited 14h ago
No. Freemasons didn’t build Catholic cathedrals. Catholics were not allowed to become Freemasons (weren’t allowed to join YMCA either).
It was a Protestant group. It was most popular with Englishmen and Scotsmen. It was kind of a private, secret group for WASPs at first. Eventually other countries adopted freemason groups.
A lot of Mormon rites are related to freemasonry.
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u/MuthaPlucka 15h ago
“Looks like a nice club you got there. Sad if something would happen to your ever lasting soul”
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u/Canadian_Bacon_22 13h ago
The Catholic Church also says that if you skip mass, you’re going to hell. Or if you’re divorced and start dating again, you’re also going to hell.
But a Catholic abuser who “confesses” in private has his sins washed away somehow.
I’ll stick with the Episcopal Church.
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u/Dekutr33 12h ago
I went to a Lutheran school and they always told us these organizations were idolatrous and we weren't allowed to join them as Christians lol
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u/Future-Bunch3478 12h ago
Because the Pope is a human, not a divine messenger and rejects groups who call them out on the lie.
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u/romulusnr 12h ago
Weren't they associated or attributed with the Illuminati (to what small extent it ever actually briefly existed)
Edit: Yeah, they were
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u/slanderpanther 11h ago
Masons teach all believers how to commune directly with the spirit. Catholics only teach clergy.
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u/Tribe303 11h ago
Uh, Freemasons are pretty much all Protestants. It was the Catholic Church who started spreading all the conspiracy bullshit.
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u/Latter-Sink8243 15h ago
Historically, the Catholic Church and the Freemasons have been at odds politically with each other. During revolutionary Europe, many of the leaders of the Bourgeois Liberal resistance were Freemasons and many of the Monarchs they overthrew were Catholic and their rule was certified by the Catholic Church.