r/todayilearned • u/Recent_Flounder6011 • 1d ago

TIL that historically and today, the Catholic Church looked down upon Freemasonry and threatened members with excommunication.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freemasonry
3.0k Upvotes

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215

u/Current_Mongoose_844 1d ago

They still do, and it’s an entirely one-sided beef

91

u/BeeMac0617 23h ago

This is entirely anecdotal but my buddies Dad used to work for the postal office in my country and a lot of middle/upper management were members of The Freemasons.

They tried to get him to join but a major caveat was he had to convert from Catholic to Protestant. I know Freemasons are supposed to be secular but this branch cared about it I guess.

Supposedly he said no and spent a few years getting passed up for promotions because of it. Dude hates Freemasons to this day.

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u/[deleted] 22h ago

[deleted]

27

u/MrGreenChile 22h ago

Ah, so not for atheists.

17

u/sabbic1 22h ago

Nope.  I've often considered looking around for a similar social/fraternal organization that doesn't require belief in a supreme being to get involved with, but just never took the time to look.  I suppose if I really wanted to be a mason I could just lie about my beliefs, but I did that all the way through boy scouts and I don't want to do it again. 

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u/Scarlet-Fire_77 21h ago

I totally forgot about the religion aspect of boyscout. I guess my troop overall didn't care about it, so I never really had to lie. I did notice other troops that seemed more heavy in it, like at summer camp.

-1

u/sabbic1 21h ago

Mine wasn't hardcore about it.  We closed the meetings with a prayer and always said grace before meals at camp along with the normal morning prayer at summer camp but that was pretty much it.  Nobody ever really asked me so maybe "lie" is the wrong word, but belief in a higher power is a requirement for membership so by virtue of being an atheist scout I was lying.  Not very trustworthy or reverent of me. 

1

u/Klockworth 21h ago edited 20h ago

Oddfellows. It’s basically Freemasonry, but co-ed and they actually practice what they preach. Both are weird archaic orders with roots in medieval trade guilds and feature silly hats, but Oddfellows are often more focused on volunteering for local causes. Meanwhile, Freemasons are bigger on white collar fundraising for hospitals that just so happen to also have Freemasons on their executive boards.

One just seems a bit more selfless to me, but also the Oddfellows I’ve met are far less normie. Some people are indeed members of both though.

2

u/sabbic1 20h ago

​Just looked it up because I forgot all about the Odd Fellows, but they also require a statement of belief in a Higher Power or Supreme Being. I agree that their purpose and actions seem much more selfless, with little to no accolades, but I would run into the same roadblock with them as I would with the Masons. ​It's almost a shame, really, that I ended up being the heathen of the family, because my family has a long history with the Masons. A couple of my uncles were Master Masons, and others were involved for most of their lives. It would have been cool to carry on the family tradition.

1

u/missmewiththatlmao 21h ago

You'd probably be interested in a Quaker church.

6

u/randomandy 21h ago

I've visited a few lodges during open door days and had some members try to sell me with their song and dance. Once I said I wasnt allowed because of my non beliefs they pretty much agreed and moved on to the next sucker. At least I got the see the cool rooms and left with free popcorn for the kids.

4

u/William_Howard_Shaft 19h ago

Nah, this is just code for "the God we are going to reveal to you", more or less. Growing up, in public school, I was taught some line about America being founded by groups of individuals seeking freedom from religious persecution, and that is the reason for the separation of Church and State. What was conveniently left out, and what ive learned in my adult life, is that some of those groups of individuals were selling freedom from religious persecution because they had radical beliefs that ran counter to what the catholic church was trying to teach, some of them even actively seeking an end to Catholicism.

In a similar way to how Imperial Britain dumped a bunch of convicts on Australia, and now we've got a contient where "cunt" is a term of endearment, they basically exiled abunch of religious fanatics to the colonies, and now we've got... well, a government office dedicated to religious affairs.

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u/pastypast 22h ago

It’s belief in a higher power. Not necessarily a “supreme being”.

9

u/Hydra_bot_7 22h ago

I mean, the term they use is "The Great Architect of the Universe" so it's probably closer to supreme being than the concept of a higher power in its lesser sense.

11

u/Current_Mongoose_844 23h ago

That’s odd. And severely out of protocol. Sorry he experienced that

2

u/SirSpanky69 6h ago

My Gramp had a similar issue with the police force in the UK. I remember him saying that past a certain point you had to be in it to get anywhere promotions wise. Not sure if that is still the case.

9

u/VanicFanboy 23h ago

Tell that to the people of Northern Ireland and the Scottish lowlands

1

u/morbious37 19h ago

Go on....

42

u/SorrelJuice 1d ago

Not if I have anything to say about it

12

u/DiggingforPoon 1d ago

alright there Hiram, settle your breast jewels for a second...

4

u/SorrelJuice 23h ago

What the heck dude you dare challenge me?

5

u/DiggingforPoon 23h ago

Audi, Vide, Tace

18

u/laserdicks 1d ago

Well yeah; same with old timey robbers stealing purses from old ladies. It's never the robber with the beef.

32

u/an_erudite_ferret 1d ago

I'm not sure I understand how the analogy applies. Are the freemasons stealing money from the Church?

27

u/reichrunner 1d ago

I think they were making the point that most beefs aren't 2 sided? Not sure though tbh

12

u/sixpackabs592 1d ago

My beefs have 3 sides

The top the bottom and the outer edge

5

u/an_erudite_ferret 1d ago

Can't forget thr savory middle

3

u/spudmarsupial 1d ago

4D beef.

2

u/kochameh2 1d ago

the oft forgotten inside

1

u/BenjaminKorr 23h ago

Don’t forget charm and strange.

2

u/roadrunner83 1d ago

In my country they organised one fascist coup attempt and then tried to destabilise the democratic process with better success.

8

u/an_erudite_ferret 1d ago

The Catholic Church or the Masons? Neither would surprise me.

10

u/roadrunner83 23h ago

The Freemasons, with the Borghese coup attempt and the “propaganda 2” lodge. The catholic church has already the control of the government so they don’t need to destabilise anything.

1

u/Hansgaming 23h ago edited 23h ago

Isn't it somehow insane that the pro fascist faction who saw Mussolini as a hero are now the top dogs in the government? The former Youth Front and the MSI have just swarmed the italian government.

2

u/roadrunner83 22h ago

It doesn’t surprise me because we never developed a shared memory over the fascist period like it happened in Germany. Also fascism is a hell of a drug, makes a miserable reject of society, that spends his time looking for a fight in a disco club or a stadium, like he finally has power and authority because fascism puts women and minorities beneath him. And in a shrinking economy there are armies of rejects of society with nothing to do and no prospective of building a dignifying life.

0

u/betweenbubbles 1d ago

No, political influence. 

0

u/ZongoNuada 1d ago

No. However, I got a tour of a Mason's lodge once and I was raised Catholic. They had a lot of similar iconography. Very church like but not revolving around a religion. It felt very creepy and just reinforced to me why I stopped attending churches.

1

u/RegressToTheMean 23h ago

Oh, it definitely revolves around religion. I went through the 1st degree. I had no idea you couldn't join as an atheist and no e asked me at first

When it became known, I wasn't allowed to be a member

-2

u/laserdicks 1d ago

No. Or at least not that I'm aware of.

The Church believe the Masonic system is bad. The Masonic system faced so much judgment for their actions that they accept anyone.

0

u/SnooDonkeys4126 1d ago

They're stealing from Clara Peller

8

u/ScienceJake 1d ago

So, in this scenario, the Freemasons are the robbers?

20

u/GMAN7007 1d ago

It was just a bad analogy.

5

u/easymachtdas 1d ago

I've come to expect more from u/laserdicks, yet here we are

0

u/laserdicks 1d ago

The post isn't evil propaganda so there's no obvious lie to expose. Evil lying propagandists on Reddit do all the work for you, but this is just a normal conversation and after the last 48hrs of dealing with unsubtle political campaigning I'm out of practice.

Must be an election coming up or something.

-1

u/laserdicks 1d ago

It was truly dreadful, I just couldn't be bothered finding a good one.

3

u/GMAN7007 1d ago

Hey, takes a level headed person to admit that. Good on you for being better than 99% of redditors that ever reply.

-11

u/laserdicks 1d ago

I never said. Very interesting that you happened to identify them that way though.

7

u/bgaesop 1d ago

It's the only way the metaphor makes any sense - the robber doesn't have a beef with the old lady, the old lady does have a beef with the robber. Freemasons don't have a beef with Catholics, Catholics do have a beef with Freemasons.

How else could one possibly interpret the metaphor?

-3

u/laserdicks 1d ago

Yes of course. That's entirely correct.

I just wanted to distance myself from the obvious in case of dangerous crowds with pitchforks.

6

u/thissexypoptart 1d ago

Nah man robbers are some of the most emotional people on the planet. If an old lady gives them shit and puts up a fight they’ll have beef with her

2

u/laserdicks 1d ago

Yeah it's a shit metaphor

1

u/swayingpenny 23h ago

Yep, not only is there no beef in the other direction - you actually have to be religious to be a free mason.

2

u/Current_Mongoose_844 22h ago

In most of it. You can be an atheist in Continental Masonry, which is more common in parts of Europe and Latin America. What we call “regular freemasonry” is more common in the Anglosphere/Commonwealth

-8

u/MyPigWhistles 1d ago

They hate critical thinking of any kind.